Reflecting on it, probably the best faction questline I've played in Morrowind so far, with the textual depth of Morrowind but something like the dramatic sense of the later games. The quest design was so good, I learned to love the waiting and I have to praise the writing some more. The use of familiar characters with some new ones breathed so much life into the corners of Vvardenfell, the various plot threads tied together so nicely by the end and all the side stories left me with a lot of love for random npcs. Now for a very, very long rest of comment here with full story spoilers:
Spoiler:
Show
My fave side story that was totally unexpected was everything with Sorkvild in Dagon Fel. It wasn't just a step to our end goal with a diversion but its own thing that made me smile throughout. Many other moments like this, like the back and forth around Avon Oran's social club, Eloroth's story which was the one that really made me pause and read all the text we had on hand two times over, Larrius Varo's downwards spiral - he was a truly great... rival, nemesis? he was great - the complex relationship with Attelivupis disenchanted from love who still set out for revenge against us, Ikran as just as great of a foe with such an exciting long winding corridor of a story before we crossed blades, and NEBIA... her story stuck with me, I was so happy to see her alive and well behind the cornerclub counter. I feel even though originally we were using her as a vulnerable person at the time to hurt a more powerful person, we had become friends by the end and of the many guildmates lost, she prevailed. They're all very "human" characters, mer and "nemer" included for lack of a better way to put it.
The recurring characters, quest givers like Orvas, Gurak, Banor, and so on were all just so well done. For example with Orvas, it's a similar approach to his (apparent) lackey from the main game, Sjoring Hard-Heart, his story and motivation unravels by the end for a grand showdown because there's only one way out at this point... but better done in every possible way, we spend more time with him for better or worse and meet him so that it can hit us in retrospect. With his backstory here, his rash and senseless behaviour, how he spirals from tense to paranoid makes so much sense, he was never really in his element as he seemed to be. He's cruel enough for this lifestyle if anything, but in the way of the little noble second son who was aware of the ultimate price his father paid for his position... and found that to be the point where something is unacceptable, of all things. He's afflicted with the same destructive love for his family, father at least, as Vedam, which makes their alienation from each other even sadder.
I roleplayed a character who was part orsimer and part dunmer, so the friendship we ended up developing with Gurak got me as a surprise, was truly character-building and emotional. By the back end of the story I gladly cut through the whole of Fort Moonmoth to free him unscathed. His friendship with Orvas stuck with me too, and watching it fall apart... I remember a comment on this page I saw before I played, that it didn't make sense, and I had to disagree because it doesn't track with what I see real people say and do. It also dug into another quirk of his character in the original game, that philo-orcish flourish from the "true nature" book which sticks out in his religion-themed bookshelf at first, to his original orcish armour and the Tong's work with the orcs of Vvardenfell more than any other population outside of dunmer. I really loved Gurak, my character was certainly a better friend than Orvas in the end but it's a cutthroat life here in the underworld and we were all played by a greater force.
An experience I remember when my bounty was up to somewhere under 20k, kill on sight with Imperial guards and seemingly the Great House ones too, I was freeing the slaves from Ules Manor after the councilor's mysterious disappearance and they had the usual "the notorious outlaw! get me out of here!" dialogue that I really read in different light for this context. Freeing slaves on the side really helped me in the end which I wasn't counting on, to convince Ilmeni to leave Vvardenfell. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to kill her too as she was already one of my dearest npcs, and the different options to deal with her were great. To no surprise with this trajectory my character as Kingpin decided to take the Tong in the way of helping commoners and freedmen under the Empire's yoke (not for long!) through ways they can. How popular that decision was, not sure, I'd expect more infighting but it's good to have a daedroth by your side.
Vonos is just a super fun character, his appearance still startles me but he's just a part of my Vvardenfell now and Vile's realm of Oblivion is poorer for it. I wondered how good his Orvas impression could really be, but then it struck me it doesn't matter, we ended up killing or otherwise removing so many people who were in close contact with him and could know better. All around well played by Clavicus Vile and friends. This whole spiral of events was full of suspense and surprises at every turn. Like with Nevena Ules, she was so out of left field for me as my impression of her from the game was close to Orvas if anyone, alienated from her fellow councilors, even Velanda Omani. It's one of the many points that had me spinning theories, like whether Vonos manipulated her with the purpose of pulling the rug underneath her for his and Vile's greater plan, to me it's a marker of good and engrossing writing.
The sequence near the end where we start by fighting Orvas but end up with a gauntlet of the many enemies - and friends - we've cut down in our path was really something else. One of the most frantic and definitely coolest experiences I've had in a game in recent memory, it struck me so deep that everything in that playthrough after was tinged with melancholy. I couldn't finish the Hlaalu questline for a few reasons even before the assassination of the duke - maybe the brothers will find some respite in the afterlife - but I'd have loved to see Velanda Omani as Grandmaster, I think she becomes one and I just didn't check. And by the time we got to the Clavicus Vile plot, I wished I'd joined the Fighters' Guild, maybe the Thieves' Guild too - if it works, it works - to see if there's anything new going on with Eydis Fire-Eye. All of this makes me want to replay the questline with a new character, but I'll take some more time for it to set in.
In the end, one question. What is the white material in the new ebony armour variant supposed to be? It's such a beautiful set, I always see it as some kind of fluffy fur or wool and think well that can't be right, but I still love the idea. I'd endorse this over and over if possible.
Thank you immensely for your well-written review. I've never received such an awesome comment on my mods before, so thanks a lot for bringing a smile to my face. You absolutely understood what I was going for, even with the details I thought might be less noticeable. It makes the year worth of planning all worth it!
The white material is chitin if you look close enough. I think RV is thinking of retexturing it, so it will be interesting to see how that turns out.
Again, though, thank you for your comment. I really appreciate your such well-written review! :)
I usually do not make posts like this, but I wanted to share a quick clarification about the use of the singular 'they' in this mod. There is no political motive behind it, and my priority has always been to ensure the writing flows naturally. I read each sentence aloud after writing to make sure everything sounds clear. I'm a native English speaker (from New Zealand, but I'm not sure if that matters).
I understand the concern that it might feel out of place, but I believe I have seen some examples of the singular 'they' in vanilla Morrowind. The game's writing is already diverse, so I do not think it stands out unnaturally, especially since I try and ensure the dialogue flows well. Still, it is a valid concern for some, and I don't mean to diminish it further, but please accept that it is not something I wish to focus on or update at this stage.
I understand that language choices can spark discussion, and I really appreciate everyone's engagement with this mod, but I would like to kindly ask that we keep the focus on the content itself rather than debating grammar rules. i.e., please do not discuss this here. Thank you for understanding, and I truly appreciate your support!
I've never made it particularly far in this mod due to my rabid restartitis, but I've thoroughly enjoyed what I have played!
Out of curiosity, do you have any interest in expanding the Tong quests onto the mainland one day? Or does Tamriel Rebuilt change too much to make that viable?
I've thought about it, but TR updates lots, and so it would need to be a continuous WIP. Luckily, TR by default allows you to make some choices that benefit the Camonna Tong I believe. & It's not like the Mainland CT would expect to know who you are given everything you're doing for them in this questline is solely on Vvardenfell, so it's still lore-friendly.
Hi, didnt know if u saw, but RuffinVangar updated his Cammona chitin armor texture (with better colors and detailed Hlaalu banner). I think u should add it too in the next update, other then that great mod.
Does it work with Tamriel Rebuilt (Grasping Fortune)? It does change the way you become Hlaalu Grandmaster, and there is a strong Camonna Tong presence in the city.
If not, is there any chance we might get a compatibility patch?
Funnily enough I just learned this last night. I love TR and will absolutely make a patch. Do you know if you can still become Grandmaster from the Duke or has that whole thing changed and you can only go the Vizier route now?
The patch will ensure you can complete both questlines.
I won't add to or change the Narsis content though, as TR could always update and make my patches incompatible. But also because my understanding is you can still be pro-CT in Grasping Fortune's Hlaalu, and if you choose to be anti-CT there you can just chalk it up to Orvas not having a clue you were down there in the first place.
If I accept Dren's offer instead of declaring a war, am I locked into helping Cammona Tong, or can I work into dismantling/reorganizing them from within? I'm playing as an Imperial abolitionist who is a part of Thieves Guild and joins House Hlaalu to infiltrate them and gain a leverage in favour of thieves guild. I don't want to read the guide to avoid spoilers.
Yes you can. There's a little side content for Thieves Guild members in this. Just be really careful not to get too carried away and betray the Thieves Guild.
All of Balmora was absent of the Varro rumours, as it ought to have been, but Bacola Closcius of all people immediately told me the "little secret" of Varro wanting to see me. Will it interfere with the initial stages of this mod?
Big wall of text incoming! Finished through the mod and i got to say it was really interesting. I have some issues though:
1 - Double NPCs: We have a double Duke Dren when he
Spoiler:
Show
goes to his sister's house after we kill her
. He still appears in Ebonheart even though he obviously shouldn't. We also have a double Orvas Drean
Spoiler:
Show
after he's dead.
. Consoling disable on him makes him spawn instantly.
2 - The final confrontation with
Spoiler:
Show
Orvas Dren
was very well done and creative, but the falling down effect to the caves makes me fall on top of them instead of inside. Without slowfall this results in a instant death. No biggie, just tcl myself inside and all carried out as normal. My favorite part of the mod, personally.
3 - Our cut from the businness seems very low. 500 a month for racketeering/skooma is chump change in morrowind's economy. I'd make it a little higher. Also after you
Spoiler:
Show
become the puppetmaster of the Camonna Tong
, getting just 2500 a month is very anticlimatic. I do like the ability to
Spoiler:
Show
dictate how the faction operates
even if that's just for flavor.
4 - In the quest where we have to capture a certain traitorous Elf for an unfortunate fate, we get a companion that'll snatch her. This companion won't dissappear after doing said snatching which i think shouldn't happen, unless she teleported to a dres farm and teleported back instantly. Don't know if it's intended, but just letting you know.
5 - Ikran talks about himself in third person if you talk to him about it. I select "Ikran" from the topics an he said something like "yeah he likes to spend his time at the tavern".
6 - The writing. The pronouns are all over the place. I imagine it's intended to use neutral language, but it has inconsistencies all over, like starting the text with regular pronouns then switching to neutral, then regular again. It makes it very confusing to understand some parts of the mod, specially if english isn't your first language (my case). It also makes the mods content not very seamless since the base game doesn't do this, making it stick out.
I have one question though: if you carry on with your Camonna playthrough, Duke Dren will deny you the construction papers for your stronghold. On the base game however, you can loot those, with your name on it and all, if you kill him. That
Spoiler:
Show
doesn't happen when you kill him when the mod prompts you to
.
Since doing this locks you out of building the stronghold, wouldn't it be possible to make his successor hand you the construction papers, since Orvas himself said he'll do whatever he's asked to?
Anyway that's about it. Great mod all around, the ending sequence was a great cinematic little walk to remind you of your decisions throhought your quest, it was so cool being haunted by those you cross in pursue of money and power. Looking foward for mod mods from you! (and sorry for the walltext)
Thanks a lot for this as I'm currently going through all of my mods and updating them.
There's a lot of good bugs here to resolve, but I have a feeling the first bug you reported is a result of incompatibility (of course I'll test it).
Regarding the gold, I agree with you. I think I chose that amount because if you use an economy mod, it makes it more standard. Maybe I can make it a little higher.
As for the pronouns, I get this question from time to time. There's no political statements or anything behind it (not saying you're saying this at all but just making it clear), it's just written how I'd generally talk. I do often read out loud my writing after putting it into text. As such, I don't really agree with you. There's no harm in swapping them as it's still valid in English. In my opinion, stating the base game 'doesn't do this' isn't a good assertion to me when Morrowind's writing often doesn't stick to it's own rules, and also I doubt you've checked every piece of vanilla dialogue for this specifically.
Anyway, thanks for the reports and the feedback. It's really useful - and just generally nice to hear. I'll investigate them then fix them up once I get round to updating this mod (hopefully soon). :)
Maybe i've phrased myself wrong about the pronouns, not trying to give you flak about it (as i said, not my mother language). My main issue was the fact that you sometimes used it, but sometimes you did not. Especially during a certain bosmer quest, got a little confusing over there.
About the possible mod incompatibilities on the double NPCs, i think it's possible it conflicts with MDMD though i don't know if it touches the Dren brothers, i'll see if i test it later today and give you an anwser. :D
Also, during a certain jailbreak, the script will trigger only if you'll pass through the arches. I don't know if it's doable since i'm no modder, but perhaps would be better if the script recognizes the jail break after you leave the cell with him,. I say this because the first time i went through the quest, i sneaked in,
Spoiler:
Show
killed the agent out of spite
, then invisible'd my way to his holding cell and teleported out with him. The game obviously didn't recognized the jail break since i didn't went through the arches leading to an hilarious situation where Orvas still hurried me to free the prisioner even though he was right besides me. I didn't want to massacre everyone, as i was playing a sneaky kind of character. Maybe this would be a nice alternative to someone who roleplays as a Spy/Agent character, though maybe not since you're affiliated with the Camonna Tong and they don't care about innocent deaths.
My main problem though was with the construction contracts situation. My work around was spawning the item through the console. Was it intended to punish the player or just an oversight?
Another question, does killing
Spoiler:
Show
Sorkvild the Raven
bricks the quest? Because i had to spawn him again through the console, since i've killed him earlier in the run to get his helmet.
I understand. I didn't think you were. I think I know which quest you mean, so I'll check it out and try and make it cleared. Let me know if there were any other quests you found the wording to be confusing.
If there's an incompatibility then I'll see what to can do.
The jailbreak thing makes sense. I think the reason is if you get through there stealthy, he would still need a means to escape the cell if everyone's still alive. I'm not sure how to get around this. But how'd you teleport him out there though? As far as I know they don't teleport with you generally unless you use a mod? I agree with you regarding the spy option. This is definitely a change I'll make. Not sure how to tackle it yet.
The contract issue might be an oversight by me. Check with the new 'guy'. If he doesn't have dialogue for it then I must've missed it and will need to patch it.
For Sorkvild, yeah it does sadly. I'm going to have to make a workaround for that too.
The jailbreak thing makes sense. I think the reason is if you get through there stealthy, he would still need a means to escape the cell if everyone's still alive. I'm not sure how to get around this. But how'd you teleport him out there though? As far as I know they don't teleport with you generally unless you use a mod? I agree with you regarding the spy option. This is definitely a change I'll make. Not sure how to tackle it yet
You could slip him one of these, just like you would do with the redguard prisioner in Nammu. He'd teleport to the Temple and make his escape. I wouldn't suggest the Divine Intervention though, because he would just teleport to the entrance.
It's funny in writing my response to you I thought the same, but I deleted it because then I realized, he'd teleport to Balmora Temple. I'm not so sure if that's where they'd want to go immediately after breaking out of the fort nearby. A guard might see them and recognize them.
He could "borrow" some robes and pose as a pilgrim on his way to the silt strider, maybe even a potion of invisibility or two... There's no guards inside the temple, who would stop him? He'd have the same challenges he would by leaving through the fort's front door. I don't think it's too farfetched, he's a criminal after all.
135 comments
The recurring characters, quest givers like Orvas, Gurak, Banor, and so on were all just so well done. For example with Orvas, it's a similar approach to his (apparent) lackey from the main game, Sjoring Hard-Heart, his story and motivation unravels by the end for a grand showdown because there's only one way out at this point... but better done in every possible way, we spend more time with him for better or worse and meet him so that it can hit us in retrospect. With his backstory here, his rash and senseless behaviour, how he spirals from tense to paranoid makes so much sense, he was never really in his element as he seemed to be. He's cruel enough for this lifestyle if anything, but in the way of the little noble second son who was aware of the ultimate price his father paid for his position... and found that to be the point where something is unacceptable, of all things. He's afflicted with the same destructive love for his family, father at least, as Vedam, which makes their alienation from each other even sadder.
I roleplayed a character who was part orsimer and part dunmer, so the friendship we ended up developing with Gurak got me as a surprise, was truly character-building and emotional. By the back end of the story I gladly cut through the whole of Fort Moonmoth to free him unscathed. His friendship with Orvas stuck with me too, and watching it fall apart... I remember a comment on this page I saw before I played, that it didn't make sense, and I had to disagree because it doesn't track with what I see real people say and do. It also dug into another quirk of his character in the original game, that philo-orcish flourish from the "true nature" book which sticks out in his religion-themed bookshelf at first, to his original orcish armour and the Tong's work with the orcs of Vvardenfell more than any other population outside of dunmer. I really loved Gurak, my character was certainly a better friend than Orvas in the end but it's a cutthroat life here in the underworld and we were all played by a greater force.
An experience I remember when my bounty was up to somewhere under 20k, kill on sight with Imperial guards and seemingly the Great House ones too, I was freeing the slaves from Ules Manor after the councilor's mysterious disappearance and they had the usual "the notorious outlaw! get me out of here!" dialogue that I really read in different light for this context. Freeing slaves on the side really helped me in the end which I wasn't counting on, to convince Ilmeni to leave Vvardenfell. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to kill her too as she was already one of my dearest npcs, and the different options to deal with her were great. To no surprise with this trajectory my character as Kingpin decided to take the Tong in the way of helping commoners and freedmen under the Empire's yoke (not for long!) through ways they can. How popular that decision was, not sure, I'd expect more infighting but it's good to have a daedroth by your side.
Vonos is just a super fun character, his appearance still startles me but he's just a part of my Vvardenfell now and Vile's realm of Oblivion is poorer for it. I wondered how good his Orvas impression could really be, but then it struck me it doesn't matter, we ended up killing or otherwise removing so many people who were in close contact with him and could know better. All around well played by Clavicus Vile and friends. This whole spiral of events was full of suspense and surprises at every turn. Like with Nevena Ules, she was so out of left field for me as my impression of her from the game was close to Orvas if anyone, alienated from her fellow councilors, even Velanda Omani. It's one of the many points that had me spinning theories, like whether Vonos manipulated her with the purpose of pulling the rug underneath her for his and Vile's greater plan, to me it's a marker of good and engrossing writing.
The sequence near the end where we start by fighting Orvas but end up with a gauntlet of the many enemies - and friends - we've cut down in our path was really something else. One of the most frantic and definitely coolest experiences I've had in a game in recent memory, it struck me so deep that everything in that playthrough after was tinged with melancholy. I couldn't finish the Hlaalu questline for a few reasons even before the assassination of the duke - maybe the brothers will find some respite in the afterlife - but I'd have loved to see Velanda Omani as Grandmaster, I think she becomes one and I just didn't check. And by the time we got to the Clavicus Vile plot, I wished I'd joined the Fighters' Guild, maybe the Thieves' Guild too - if it works, it works - to see if there's anything new going on with Eydis Fire-Eye. All of this makes me want to replay the questline with a new character, but I'll take some more time for it to set in.
In the end, one question. What is the white material in the new ebony armour variant supposed to be? It's such a beautiful set, I always see it as some kind of fluffy fur or wool and think well that can't be right, but I still love the idea. I'd endorse this over and over if possible.
Thank you immensely for your well-written review. I've never received such an awesome comment on my mods before, so thanks a lot for bringing a smile to my face. You absolutely understood what I was going for, even with the details I thought might be less noticeable. It makes the year worth of planning all worth it!
The white material is chitin if you look close enough. I think RV is thinking of retexturing it, so it will be interesting to see how that turns out.
Again, though, thank you for your comment. I really appreciate your such well-written review! :)
I understand the concern that it might feel out of place, but I believe I have seen some examples of the singular 'they' in vanilla Morrowind. The game's writing is already diverse, so I do not think it stands out unnaturally, especially since I try and ensure the dialogue flows well. Still, it is a valid concern for some, and I don't mean to diminish it further, but please accept that it is not something I wish to focus on or update at this stage.
I understand that language choices can spark discussion, and I really appreciate everyone's engagement with this mod, but I would like to kindly ask that we keep the focus on the content itself rather than debating grammar rules. i.e., please do not discuss this here. Thank you for understanding, and I truly appreciate your support!
Out of curiosity, do you have any interest in expanding the Tong quests onto the mainland one day? Or does Tamriel Rebuilt change too much to make that viable?
I've thought about it, but TR updates lots, and so it would need to be a continuous WIP. Luckily, TR by default allows you to make some choices that benefit the Camonna Tong I believe. & It's not like the Mainland CT would expect to know who you are given everything you're doing for them in this questline is solely on Vvardenfell, so it's still lore-friendly.
If not, is there any chance we might get a compatibility patch?
The patch will ensure you can complete both questlines.
I won't add to or change the Narsis content though, as TR could always update and make my patches incompatible. But also because my understanding is you can still be pro-CT in Grasping Fortune's Hlaalu, and if you choose to be anti-CT there you can just chalk it up to Orvas not having a clue you were down there in the first place.
But thanks for the patch! :)
I don't want to read the guide to avoid spoilers.
1 - Double NPCs: We have a double Duke Dren when he
2 - The final confrontation with
3 - Our cut from the businness seems very low. 500 a month for racketeering/skooma is chump change in morrowind's economy. I'd make it a little higher. Also after you
4 - In the quest where we have to capture a certain traitorous Elf for an unfortunate fate, we get a companion that'll snatch her. This companion won't dissappear after doing said snatching which i think shouldn't happen, unless she teleported to a dres farm and teleported back instantly. Don't know if it's intended, but just letting you know.
5 - Ikran talks about himself in third person if you talk to him about it. I select "Ikran" from the topics an he said something like "yeah he likes to spend his time at the tavern".
6 - The writing. The pronouns are all over the place. I imagine it's intended to use neutral language, but it has inconsistencies all over, like starting the text with regular pronouns then switching to neutral, then regular again. It makes it very confusing to understand some parts of the mod, specially if english isn't your first language (my case). It also makes the mods content not very seamless since the base game doesn't do this, making it stick out.
I have one question though: if you carry on with your Camonna playthrough, Duke Dren will deny you the construction papers for your stronghold. On the base game however, you can loot those, with your name on it and all, if you kill him. That
Since doing this locks you out of building the stronghold, wouldn't it be possible to make his successor hand you the construction papers, since Orvas himself said he'll do whatever he's asked to?
Anyway that's about it. Great mod all around, the ending sequence was a great cinematic little walk to remind you of your decisions throhought your quest, it was so cool being haunted by those you cross in pursue of money and power. Looking foward for mod mods from you! (and sorry for the walltext)
Thanks a lot for this as I'm currently going through all of my mods and updating them.
There's a lot of good bugs here to resolve, but I have a feeling the first bug you reported is a result of incompatibility (of course I'll test it).
Regarding the gold, I agree with you. I think I chose that amount because if you use an economy mod, it makes it more standard. Maybe I can make it a little higher.
As for the pronouns, I get this question from time to time. There's no political statements or anything behind it (not saying you're saying this at all but just making it clear), it's just written how I'd generally talk. I do often read out loud my writing after putting it into text. As such, I don't really agree with you. There's no harm in swapping them as it's still valid in English. In my opinion, stating the base game 'doesn't do this' isn't a good assertion to me when Morrowind's writing often doesn't stick to it's own rules, and also I doubt you've checked every piece of vanilla dialogue for this specifically.
Anyway, thanks for the reports and the feedback. It's really useful - and just generally nice to hear. I'll investigate them then fix them up once I get round to updating this mod (hopefully soon). :)
About the possible mod incompatibilities on the double NPCs, i think it's possible it conflicts with MDMD though i don't know if it touches the Dren brothers, i'll see if i test it later today and give you an anwser. :D
Also, during a certain jailbreak, the script will trigger only if you'll pass through the arches. I don't know if it's doable since i'm no modder, but perhaps would be better if the script recognizes the jail break after you leave the cell with him,. I say this because the first time i went through the quest, i sneaked in,
My main problem though was with the construction contracts situation. My work around was spawning the item through the console. Was it intended to punish the player or just an oversight?
Another question, does killing
If there's an incompatibility then I'll see what to can do.
The jailbreak thing makes sense. I think the reason is if you get through there stealthy, he would still need a means to escape the cell if everyone's still alive. I'm not sure how to get around this. But how'd you teleport him out there though? As far as I know they don't teleport with you generally unless you use a mod? I agree with you regarding the spy option. This is definitely a change I'll make. Not sure how to tackle it yet.
The contract issue might be an oversight by me. Check with the new 'guy'. If he doesn't have dialogue for it then I must've missed it and will need to patch it.
For Sorkvild, yeah it does sadly. I'm going to have to make a workaround for that too.