Just uploaded version 3. As Qrsr pointed out, there where some small gaps. So I revised all the bend pieces, which here and there looked as If I was drunk back then ;) Reworked the lot to look & connect a lot better.
& then I used those to construct a bunch of 45 & 90 degrees pieces, to make building with them a lot easier.
Writing this, in hope you will release full 30°, 45° pieces. Your pieces are a big step forward sadly its impossible to make them fit perfectly in the CK and there is always clipping wrong dimension and view to void, so im giving up.
You should use a plain 256x256 ground piece, create a dimension of X * 256 pieces and then add the turn via your program of choice on top of them otherwise, due to the way CK works, it will never work without flaws.
The start and end pieces are the problem here they dont match, dont exists. Good luck.
I discovered It is possible to 'snap to connection points' in CK. So I've added those to the .nif. Should make things a lot easier. Still need to do the collisions for the access/escape tunnel before updating.and I still want to finish the Y-split.
I still hope you do a 30 and 45° mega structure. Since it doesnt change the structure clipping with the snap points, some of your structures dont fit pixel tight to the vanilla structures, there is 1px up to 2px disalignment in terms of dimension. Thers is only one way to hide this, by using junk debris :) like BGS did it with some of their structures too. If you can fix it this mod is a game changer.
Also, i noticed some little texture clipping, or at least one bit of texture is not aligned properly, allow view to void.
When im testing your structures im turning off the light in the CK allow me to see the entire strucutre plain black, and when attaching the structures there is alot of view to voids around the edges. Though, its very tiny, 1-2 px. Most people, if decorated fine will never notice it ;)
Your work is very good, and im assuming its probably a "CK" limitation. Since the picture you shared below shows that dimension and alignment wise, your structure should fit perfectly. Should ...
Speaking about the image, CK has problems with .xxxx numbers and everything below 64, and is limited to 8 concerning grid. I can see alot of limitations with "Snap To Grid" lower than 8. Thus, keep your structures to a divisor of 8 and not lower. This will allow you make it work perfectly. Still i recommend base your structure on 64 grid concerning snap to grid, and never to anything lower. Just from experience.
Example, the image for 15° shows, 1978. Which in turn prints 247.25 when divided by 8, make it 252 or 2016 and it should work. Im telling you this because with Room Bounds and Portals the CK will crash with Snap To Grid 8 and anything else lower than 64 occasionally when setup, so CK has problems with cetain Grid numbers.
So again, if you use Snap To Grid and set it to 1, 2, 4, structure wise its a bad thing and anything inbetween. Make it 8, 16, 32, 64. This is how the CK works. And honestly best to always setup structures based on a 8x8 = 64 divisor... ;)
Last, your tunnel turns are 90° off by default compared to vanilla structures. I recommend to turn them, to make them look equal when using the "Preview Object" window. The blue Arrows BGS used are very handy. If possible dont remove and better add them back in. ;)
The biggest problem here with CK is as you mentioned, its inability to correctly use fractions. When entering the exact right coordinates, it might change them to something different. Close but not exact. If it ends anywhere else, the tunnel will look wonky and won't align up to a perfect 45 or 90 degrees.
The problem with grids is that they are square. A circle isn't square. To create 1 piece that fits all positions of a 15° slice on a 90° bend AND make it snap to a square grid... well, lets say skiing in Hell will be done long before that ever becomes possible.
The only working solution would be to move the insertion point. (or, in this case, move the mesh inside the nif) For the small one (left tunnel, left turn), move it by -2048 on the Y-Axis.
Drop it in your cell. Duplicate & rotate 15°. Repeat as many times as needed. That should work and get you a nice bend. ...but it will be harder to align them to anything else.
I might add a default straight piece with connection points, to connect to any end of a bend and then you might be able to re-align the grid to that piece and continue building on grid from there.
Although the "snap to CP" acts erratic and is badly implemented in CK.
BGS circumvent the bend piece dilemma by adding square ground pieces below the bend tunnel pieces for the mesh.
If you take a look at how Roads and Highways are setup by BGS by default you can see what im talking about. Its the only way to make the CK work perfectly fine with the bend pieces.
Those pieces do not require a specific size. This pie piece does. Move the 'end point' on to a grid point and it is no longer that specific size / 15 degrees / perfectly round. (using just one and the same piece)
I know how they did it. I also know it is impossible in this case, as I tried explaining multiple times. Not hard, or difficult, or "I don't know how".
is this something that can be added to the settlement crafting, to say, make Haydon Collider in Vault 88. or has anyone done subway tunnels for settlement crafting?
They would for sure. One reason I made them is because at one poiint in time, a long time ago, I wanted to enlarge V88 and those train tunnels (including the 3 in a row) I needed a bend piece for that, but it didn't exist, So I gave up on it, back then.
it's what i liked and disliked about FO3... getting lost in the subway while traveling around. it was a nice way to get places when you remembered the route. so now i just need a mod to make it happen in FO4. even if it's only localized in V88
Just create a recipe. Set the material/textures to double sided to prevent them from being "see through". Add 2 connection points (you should copy them from original piece and adjust. et voila.
Thanks, though I can't do it myself. Not a modder, sadly. Your wizardry with Vault Pieces shows me how great modder you're, so one could hope to get these tunnels made by you! :)
This would happen if im using the 64 snap to grid default setting in the ck to start build a perfect aligned 45° tunnel segment:Picture 1, the highlight tunnel segment is the first piece, notice the second piece moves onto the first piece:
Picture 2, this is the gap for pieces 02 and 03. None of the pieces would move onto each other instead the perfect position is abit further away from piece 02:
Picture 3, view more above, piece 01 to the left, 03 to the right:
Edit: The workaround for 1, 2 snap to grid works for the 15°.
Another example of some of the techniques used by BGS for 45° / 15° pieces:
RoadIntRampUp01bSW01
This piece is a cut in half 45° object. Maybe you can do this for 15° subway tunnel pieces as well? Another example how BGS implemented 45°, 90° turns which might be of help for the subway tunnel project:
SancRoadLoop01EndPreWar
This one here seems to be a 15° turn: RoadAlleyCurve02Free
Think you could do this for vault peices maybe? Make some 15 or 45 degree corners in or outwards and see if you can fix the wide stairwells that have missing mesh parts?
I want you to know that you are incredibly awesome, and I thank you profusely for making this. I've been working on a metro tunnels mod for the last two years or so, and I've had to cut so many corners - quite literally - when it came to turns and bends, such as cave-ins, or very careful usage of metro trains and debris. Having this as an option unlocks so many more opportunities.
After trying this out in my mod, I can confirm that it works well, aside from a single issue - there's no variants with the third rail flipped to the other side, meaning this won't always line up even if you are using the correct side. It's an issue that can mostly be ignored or worked around - in most instances, players won't really be focusing on the rail, especially if you have something for them to climb through around bends like trains - but it is still an issue nonetheless.
Updated to the newest version, and it all works well. I managed to get the pieces to line up well enough with some careful positioning and a snap-to-grid of 1, and have had no major problems on that front. The only problem I've noticed is that SubwayBend15Big02 is missing the top of the rails, the top of the wood planks, the brackets between the two, and a small section of the piping - all other pieces seem to be completely fine.
Yes, and I was sure I fixed it. & It is correct in the preview. Still is when looking at it with CK. So, I probably messed up with packing & uploading them.
edit: I checked all pieces to be sure and the small02 happened to have the same issue. So all the ..02 pieces had the same issue. (Which is not a total surprise, as those are copies from 1 source). Just uploaded a brand new set.
Remodeled the tunnel pieces to perfectly fit together for a 90° turn. (or anything else). Incl. a mid piece this time & corrected railway+3rd rail. Just need to export the lot to nifs, convert the collision stuff and put it all together. So I just might make it to update shortly/today.
Some of the normals where flipped for the mid piece, I fixed those. Beyond that their current alignment is as exact as it gets. You can't snap these to any grid. Only the first and the last in a 90 degrees turn ever will.
You can't snap these to any grid. Only the first and the last in a 90 degrees turn ever will.
I assume thats an engine limitation ???
SubTunnelBend15Big02 has weird ground textures and broken pipe textures.
EDIT: I cant get it to work, and when setting snap to grid to 1 or 2 it is still off, by some bits. Maybe if 15° pieces are a pain in the ### to setup, create 45° turns first? Entire 45° turns should work out of the box.
Nothing to do with the engine. its math. 45 does not match either. When rotating a line with fixed lenght over a fixed degree, it ends up where it does now. It will not fit a square grid or snap to it nicely.
I found a workaround which might be worth a try, - Create a start tunnel01 segment - Create the turned 15° or 45° tunnel01 segment (we call it mid segment here) - Align the mid segment to the start and end segment so that it fits - Create and end tunnel01 segment turned 15° or 45° - Snap the end tunnel01 segment to the mid segment - Use the tunnel01start, mid and end to create the working CK tunnel segment in Blender or else
Example, i created two start, mid and end pieces for a 45° setup:
In Blender (if it is that easy) you might insert all thie piece(s) below, remove the mid pieces, and leave the start and end piece(s):
You would need to re-create, fill the mid pieces and the empty mid part so that it fits perfectly fine.
I found 15° snaps horrible in the CK its very difficult to use for whatever reason. There might be a reason why BGS only used 90° pieces. 45° works very good its the default arc in the CK btw. So i can only hope you will try it. 🙂
51 comments
As Qrsr pointed out, there where some small gaps. So I revised all the bend pieces, which here and there looked as If I was drunk back then ;)
Reworked the lot to look & connect a lot better.
& then I used those to construct a bunch of 45 & 90 degrees pieces, to make building with them a lot easier.
All come with new collisions too.
You should use a plain 256x256 ground piece, create a dimension of X * 256 pieces and then add the turn via your program of choice on top of them otherwise, due to the way CK works, it will never work without flaws.
The start and end pieces are the problem here they dont match, dont exists. Good luck.
I still hope you do a 30 and 45° mega structure. Since it doesnt change the structure clipping with the snap points, some of your structures dont fit pixel tight to the vanilla structures, there is 1px up to 2px disalignment in terms of dimension. Thers is only one way to hide this, by using junk debris :) like BGS did it with some of their structures too. If you can fix it this mod is a game changer.
Also, i noticed some little texture clipping, or at least one bit of texture is not aligned properly, allow view to void.
When im testing your structures im turning off the light in the CK allow me to see the entire strucutre plain black, and when attaching the structures there is alot of view to voids around the edges. Though, its very tiny, 1-2 px. Most people, if decorated fine will never notice it ;)
Your work is very good, and im assuming its probably a "CK" limitation. Since the picture you shared below shows that dimension and alignment wise, your structure should fit perfectly. Should ...
Speaking about the image, CK has problems with .xxxx numbers and everything below 64, and is limited to 8 concerning grid. I can see alot of limitations with "Snap To Grid" lower than 8. Thus, keep your structures to a divisor of 8 and not lower. This will allow you make it work perfectly. Still i recommend base your structure on 64 grid concerning snap to grid, and never to anything lower. Just from experience.
Example, the image for 15° shows, 1978. Which in turn prints 247.25 when divided by 8, make it 252 or 2016 and it should work. Im telling you this because with Room Bounds and Portals the CK will crash with Snap To Grid 8 and anything else lower than 64 occasionally when setup, so CK has problems with cetain Grid numbers.
So again, if you use Snap To Grid and set it to 1, 2, 4, structure wise its a bad thing and anything inbetween. Make it 8, 16, 32, 64. This is how the CK works. And honestly best to always setup structures based on a 8x8 = 64 divisor... ;)
Last, your tunnel turns are 90° off by default compared to vanilla structures. I recommend to turn them, to make them look equal when using the "Preview Object" window. The blue Arrows BGS used are very handy. If possible dont remove and better add them back in. ;)
The problem with grids is that they are square. A circle isn't square. To create 1 piece that fits all positions of a 15° slice on a 90° bend AND make it snap to a square grid... well, lets say skiing in Hell will be done long before that ever becomes possible.
The only working solution would be to move the insertion point. (or, in this case, move the mesh inside the nif)
For the small one (left tunnel, left turn), move it by -2048 on the Y-Axis.
Drop it in your cell. Duplicate & rotate 15°. Repeat as many times as needed. That should work and get you a nice bend.
...but it will be harder to align them to anything else.
I might add a default straight piece with connection points, to connect to any end of a bend and then you might be able to re-align the grid to that piece and continue building on grid from there.
Although the "snap to CP" acts erratic and is badly implemented in CK.
If you take a look at how Roads and Highways are setup by BGS by default you can see what im talking about. Its the only way to make the CK work perfectly fine with the bend pieces.
I do not know of any mod that uses them (yet).
They lack an 'outside' for settlement building. (you would see through 'walls' into the tunnel)
It could easily be done now.
Just like connecting all subway stations.
Wish these were also available in the Workshop Mode!!!!!!!!
Add 2 connection points (you should copy them from original piece and adjust. et voila.
edit:
Don't forget to navmesh the floor for NPCs
Picture 3, view more above, piece 01 to the left, 03 to the right:
Edit: The workaround for 1, 2 snap to grid works for the 15°.
RoadIntRampUp01bSW01This piece is a cut in half 45° object. Maybe you can do this for 15° subway tunnel pieces as well? Another example how BGS implemented 45°, 90° turns which might be of help for the subway tunnel project:
SancRoadLoop01EndPreWarThis one here seems to be a 15° turn:
RoadAlleyCurve02FreeCurrently only (90°) for Util, but I'm nearly done with the DMSTC versions.
So, I probably messed up with packing & uploading them.
edit:
I checked all pieces to be sure and the small02 happened to have the same issue. So all the ..02 pieces had the same issue. (Which is not a total surprise, as those are copies from 1 source). Just uploaded a brand new set.
Just need to export the lot to nifs, convert the collision stuff and put it all together.
So I just might make it to update shortly/today.
edit:
Woops, too quick. I see there are a few faces flipped. I'll adjust that asap.
You can't snap these to any grid. Only the first and the last in a 90 degrees turn ever will.
I assume thats an engine limitation ???
SubTunnelBend15Big02 has weird ground textures and broken pipe textures.
EDIT: I cant get it to work, and when setting snap to grid to 1 or 2 it is still off, by some bits. Maybe if 15° pieces are a pain in the ### to setup, create 45° turns first? Entire 45° turns should work out of the box.
45 does not match either. When rotating a line with fixed lenght over a fixed degree, it ends up where it does now. It will not fit a square grid or snap to it nicely.
- Create a start tunnel01 segment
- Create the turned 15° or 45° tunnel01 segment (we call it mid segment here)
- Align the mid segment to the start and end segment so that it fits
- Create and end tunnel01 segment turned 15° or 45°
- Snap the end tunnel01 segment to the mid segment
- Use the tunnel01start, mid and end to create the working CK tunnel segment in Blender or else
See the new comment here.
Example, i created two start, mid and end pieces for a 45° setup:
In Blender (if it is that easy) you might insert all thie piece(s) below, remove the mid pieces, and leave the start and end piece(s):
You would need to re-create, fill the mid pieces and the empty mid part so that it fits perfectly fine.
I found 15° snaps horrible in the CK its very difficult to use for whatever reason. There might be a reason why BGS only used 90° pieces. 45° works very good its the default arc in the CK btw. So i can only hope you will try it. 🙂