I know updates can be annoying, so sorry for any inconveniences.I always put info on changelog, and this time, I've looked at the problem with Vivace, and hopefully solved it.It's custom morphs, so there may yet be issues because combining geometries can be unpredictable sometimes (IE, every follower combines their base head geometry, with character sculpt and on top, you have the expression morphs). But I trust this last change takes care of a lot of possible issues. Cant promise it's 100% perfect, but it should work a lot better in general. At least last I tested with Vivace, v1.1 is 100% cleared of clipping.
I dont know those mods, but this mod is incompatible with A) other mods focused on editing the specifi tri files that control expressions and B) a mod that replaces models (head, teeth, brows, scar masks) for something that has a different poly count than vanilla and it's not the high poly mod as the general community has come to know that specific mod linked on the description.
If a mod replaces vanilla meshes (nif) for improved versions and does not change the poly count, as it probably should work as a simple replacer, that doesnt require specific tri files, compatibility should be fine.
Convoluted reply but I dont know how else to put it without knowing the mods. Ideally, people should understand these principles and know what they're installing. This thing is just expressions, not models, but it depends on models having certain compatibility standards, which most, do.
As for adding vanilla comparison images... sorry, but that's just extra work I dont feel like doing.
This mod works fine with SC - 3D Teeth. Keep in mind that the mouth morphs (specifically those that govern the teeth) of this mod will not be used if the mouth part from SC - 3D Teeth is being used by your character because that mod has its own morphs for the teeth saved in a different folder in your Skyrim directory. Even when using the SC mouth part, these expressions work fine alongside that mouth part most likely because both mods respect standard Racemenu limits of movement of the mouth (i.e. how far it can open).
Probably not. Opening their mouth on eating, or doing any expression at all, depends on a mod actually calling NPC's to make expressions, IE dialogue tells an NPC,"use Aaah, Ooh, Th", etc. If no such mod tells NPCs to emote, they wont do it.
This one only changes the shape those expressions take, it doesnt tell them when to express.
Hi! Thanks for this mod! I did a quick test, and my favorite girl did look better when I used an expressions mod (Facial Expresion v4.0) to change her to use mood "Happy" or dialogue "Happy". I will test more later today and tomorrow, but I have a couple of questions under the spoiler.
Spoiler:
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Okay, I am NOT a complete noob, but I don't create characters myself. Even in my two follower mods, the girls were created by my mod partner. So I am less familiar with tri files and morphs, than I am with most internal aspects of Skyrim. Some of these questions are not directly related to your mod... I am trying to pick your brain to help educate my brain. Please feel free to ignore any or all of them.
1) I think your mod will affect female NPC expressions during dialogue and other events that affect mood in general, or specific dialogue, not just forced expressions like I did in my quick test. Is that correct?
2) You mentioned Expressive Facegen Morphs as not being a conflict. I don't use that, but from looking at it I "think" it would only be affecting a character when it is being created/modified in RaceMenu or something similar? If true, does that mean the Morphs are baked into facegen heads, so I don't need a morphs mod since I don't create characters?
3) Tri files have always confused me, since I have seen mods that supply head parts that include paths to custom tri files... but don't actually supply the actual tri files in the mods. Specifically tri files for hair and head morphs. So does that mean that those tri files are all baked into facegen heads - OR - does the game use default tri files if the specified one is not found?
Dang! Sorry for asking what might be confusing questions, especially that last one! Again, please feel free to ignore any or all of them.
1) Yes 2) I dont know what you understand by "baked into facegen" But here's how it works: You have a head mesh (nif) and a bunch of tri files. Tri files must be in sync with the nif head or else they wont work, but when they're in sync, every tri file has a list of morphs that change the base model's geometry. Now, different tri files, contain different morphs, which are used for different circumstances. I onlyprovided the tri files that are used by expressions. EFM provides files that are used by character creation tools instead. 3) I've never seen such a thing, but as far as I know, if a mod has a character with a custom head, and their head points to a tri file that doesnt exist, then the functions controlled by that unexisting tri should just not be there and you should have a still mesh that doesnt really morph. And if it does, then you're probably missing something about the part where it points to something that it was actually able to find. Missing files should just behave as static.
Thanks for fast reply! For my first question, that is great! I did more testing, and picked a dialogue topic that resulted in the NPC being surprised, and I could see the difference! Nice! Oh, by the way, I did Endorse your mod! For the other questions, thanks for your comments, which help me understand better and give me some things to think about too. Under the spoiler I will clarify a bit about those questions - but no need to respond, or even to open the spoiler to read it.
Spoiler:
Show
Writing things out like this helps me think. When I said baked into the facegen heads for NPCs, I mean the combined head mesh that contains head, hair, mouth, eyes, and brows. The mesh for the NPC that would be located in a path like this:
What I meant by "baked in" is that much of the information in the plugin esp file in the NPC record and Head Part records are baked into that combined mesh. Once you have that combined mesh, much of what is in the plugin isn't really used in game. As long as the identifier names for each NiTriShape in the mesh, match the default head part names in the race record (or in the Head Part records the NPC record points to).
I understand that for the tri files your mod is supplying, like the femalehead.tri, they are NOT baked in, and must be found at run time or the NPC won't work correctly, for example mouth and lips don't move during dialogue. But if the morph files are missing at run time, it seems to me that everything works. If the morph files (or custom morph files for a follower/NPC mod) only affect the geometry of the head in RaceMenu when the character is being created, and those changes are then included in what I call the facegen head, those morphs would be "baked in". If they are not, then either I am just not observant enough to see that some subtle changes are not being applied to the NPC in game, or the custom morphs that are missing just weren't really needed. Still not sure on that, but that is not your problem at all. Edit: But - If the morph tris supplied by EFM (femaleheadchargen.tri and FemaleHeadraces.tri and EyesFemaleChargen.tri) are baked in to the facegen head meshes - I wouldn't have to worry about them.
Now... the reason this is important to me, and maybe to other users, is that I have over 400 followers in my game. If I want them all to use your new tri files, I have to change some things. Of those 400 followers, many of them have stand alone tri files. Even if they did not need to be stand alone because they are just copies of vanilla tri files (or HP tri files for NPCs with High Poly heads). My game has well over 1000 mods, so I like to use shared assets whenever possible. For example, I replaced any custom body assets in all of my followers to share my custom body-slided body meshes and textures. Saves memory and disk space. But I have not modified any of the head part records in the plugins that have tri files in custom paths.
So... if I want all my girls to be using your new expressions, I now need to decide if I want to start a massive update to my game to have all my followers share tri files whenever possible, including the over 100 NPCs that have their own femalehead.tri files! Although after checking, many of those are in fact the same files, just in different paths. Hmm... even as I write this large comment, I realize how insane I probably seem to most people!
Edit: 7/7/2022 Good news - bad news - for me. It appears that at least some of my most important NPC replacers (winterhold college, companions, thieves guild, dark brotherhood) are citrus head based, which have their own tri files that I assume are not compatible with this mod. Several more are High Poly heads, which I can repoint to my installed High Poly heads mod, which will have expressions replaced by this mod. Some are ECE heads, which I am still not sure about - but may need work. Of course, many are vanilla heads with copies of vanilla tri files, so those can be optimized to use vanilla assets, and then will pick up changes from this mod. So good news... less work for me, at least at first, to optimize my NPCs to use this mod and also shared assets. Bad news... unless a new version is created for Citrus and any other custom heads I might use... not all my NPCs will be able to take advantage of this mod. And NO - I am not asking this mod author to create a Citrus version or any other version. End of Edit
Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and comments that have helped me get a better idea of what I need to look at. And especially for this great new mod.
Hey DeathLoop36! Glad to know I am not the only one confused about this subject. Contact me privately if you want to discuss any of what I wrote under the spoiler - I don't want to clutter up Myst42's comments section more than I already have.
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If a mod replaces vanilla meshes (nif) for improved versions and does not change the poly count, as it probably should work as a simple replacer, that doesnt require specific tri files, compatibility should be fine.
Convoluted reply but I dont know how else to put it without knowing the mods. Ideally, people should understand these principles and know what they're installing. This thing is just expressions, not models, but it depends on models having certain compatibility standards, which most, do.
As for adding vanilla comparison images... sorry, but that's just extra work I dont feel like doing.
Opening their mouth on eating, or doing any expression at all, depends on a mod actually calling NPC's to make expressions, IE dialogue tells an NPC,"use Aaah, Ooh, Th", etc. If no such mod tells NPCs to emote, they wont do it.
This one only changes the shape those expressions take, it doesnt tell them when to express.
1) I think your mod will affect female NPC expressions during dialogue and other events that affect mood in general, or specific dialogue, not just forced expressions like I did in my quick test. Is that correct?
2) You mentioned Expressive Facegen Morphs as not being a conflict. I don't use that, but from looking at it I "think" it would only be affecting a character when it is being created/modified in RaceMenu or something similar? If true, does that mean the Morphs are baked into facegen heads, so I don't need a morphs mod since I don't create characters?
3) Tri files have always confused me, since I have seen mods that supply head parts that include paths to custom tri files... but don't actually supply the actual tri files in the mods. Specifically tri files for hair and head morphs. So does that mean that those tri files are all baked into facegen heads - OR - does the game use default tri files if the specified one is not found?
Dang! Sorry for asking what might be confusing questions, especially that last one! Again, please feel free to ignore any or all of them.
2) I dont know what you understand by "baked into facegen" But here's how it works: You have a head mesh (nif) and a bunch of tri files. Tri files must be in sync with the nif head or else they wont work, but when they're in sync, every tri file has a list of morphs that change the base model's geometry. Now, different tri files, contain different morphs, which are used for different circumstances. I onlyprovided the tri files that are used by expressions. EFM provides files that are used by character creation tools instead.
3) I've never seen such a thing, but as far as I know, if a mod has a character with a custom head, and their head points to a tri file that doesnt exist, then the functions controlled by that unexisting tri should just not be there and you should have a still mesh that doesnt really morph. And if it does, then you're probably missing something about the part where it points to something that it was actually able to find. Missing files should just behave as static.
Meshes\Actors\Character\FaceGenData\FaceGeom\FollowerModExample.esp\00123456.nif
What I meant by "baked in" is that much of the information in the plugin esp file in the NPC record and Head Part records are baked into that combined mesh. Once you have that combined mesh, much of what is in the plugin isn't really used in game. As long as the identifier names for each NiTriShape in the mesh, match the default head part names in the race record (or in the Head Part records the NPC record points to).
I understand that for the tri files your mod is supplying, like the femalehead.tri, they are NOT baked in, and must be found at run time or the NPC won't work correctly, for example mouth and lips don't move during dialogue. But if the morph files are missing at run time, it seems to me that everything works. If the morph files (or custom morph files for a follower/NPC mod) only affect the geometry of the head in RaceMenu when the character is being created, and those changes are then included in what I call the facegen head, those morphs would be "baked in". If they are not, then either I am just not observant enough to see that some subtle changes are not being applied to the NPC in game, or the custom morphs that are missing just weren't really needed. Still not sure on that, but that is not your problem at all. Edit: But - If the morph tris supplied by EFM (femaleheadchargen.tri and FemaleHeadraces.tri and EyesFemaleChargen.tri) are baked in to the facegen head meshes - I wouldn't have to worry about them.
Now... the reason this is important to me, and maybe to other users, is that I have over 400 followers in my game.
So... if I want all my girls to be using your new expressions, I now need to decide if I want to start a massive update to my game to have all my followers share tri files whenever possible, including the over 100 NPCs that have their own femalehead.tri files!
Edit: 7/7/2022 Good news - bad news - for me. It appears that at least some of my most important NPC replacers (winterhold college, companions, thieves guild, dark brotherhood) are citrus head based, which have their own tri files that I assume are not compatible with this mod. Several more are High Poly heads, which I can repoint to my installed High Poly heads mod, which will have expressions replaced by this mod. Some are ECE heads, which I am still not sure about - but may need work. Of course, many are vanilla heads with copies of vanilla tri files, so those can be optimized to use vanilla assets, and then will pick up changes from this mod. So good news... less work for me, at least at first, to optimize my NPCs to use this mod and also shared assets. Bad news... unless a new version is created for Citrus and any other custom heads I might use... not all my NPCs will be able to take advantage of this mod. And NO - I am not asking this mod author to create a Citrus version or any other version. End of Edit
Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and comments that have helped me get a better idea of what I need to look at.
Hey DeathLoop36! Glad to know I am not the only one confused about this subject.