Is it okay to create a version of this mod where it instead just give the Wizard a -100% Action Speed penalty on casting the forbidden school? Regardless, thank you for your continued work on this mod!
I find it kind of odd that Wilting Wind, which is based off the necromantic spell Horrid Wilting from D&D, is actually restricted from necromancers in this mod.
It fits into sorcery as a spell that causes to wither from exposure to heat ("A parching wind..."), and the color scheme is appropriate. I like the idea of it as a level 8 "Fire" spell. Maybe it could be in the necromancy school! Anyway, I wasn't bound by the design constraints of Deadfire, so I'm not too interested in how a different game conceptualizes this spell.
Hey, I know this is a very long shot BUT would it be possible to isolate just the parts of this mod relating to familiars and have it as an optional download or separate mod? I'm just looking to do some light tweaks for a first-time playthrough before going all out on overhauls but I feel that the conjure familiar is poorly implemented as it does not live up to the namesake from ttrpgs while your rendition of it here being able to pick the summon and all wizards get it sounds perfect.
As promised, here are some (long-winded) thoughts about the mod. Obviously, they're totally subjective, so take them all with many grains of salt.
For context, I play in turn-based mode, so the initiative penalties aren't hugely upsetting to me. I play TB because my playstyle values complexity, synergy, and all that fiddly micromanagement, which is why I play a lot of casters. I love mods like yours because they deepen the mechanics of the game, though I appreciate that you try to maintain the balance. For reference, a mod like Wizard Revision adds lots of really interesting passives and mechanics, but makes a single-class wizard vastly overpowered, especially Evokers.
I've now played all three of your wizard subclasses through the first island. I know that's not enough to really judge them by, but it's a start. At that stage, Necromancer felt like a clear winner. That early in the game, Blood Sacrifice is hugely satisfying and helpful, the spell list has great options for regaining life and doing interesting things, and the subclass feels beautifully thematic. The extra power level from Blood Sacrifice is very nice (and noticeably absent from the other? subclasses), and losing access to Empower didn’t really bother me, but I’m really bad about using Empower anyway (I hoard it the way I needlessly hoard scrolls). Of the three subclasses, Necromancer felt like it would be the most fun to play all the way through as a single class, though there are some interesting multi-class themes that I could imagine.
Arcanist felt the least thematic, for better or worse. By itself, it didn’t feel like a coherent power fantasy, but that might just be because the spells I got to just weren’t my cup of lightning. While playing it, I kept wishing I had multiclassed it with a martial character, where it would really shine. Multiclassing would make the most of the ability to regenerate low-level buffs and close-range spells. The pacing and level limit of the Coalesce ability feels right, and the new spells look interesting (even though I didn’t get to many of them), but the subclass lacked the complexity of Blood Sacrifice or the potential excitement of the Sorcerer’s echo. I hadn’t yet found something that would keep me hooked through a playthrough.
Sorcerer grew on me. With the extra spell casts and the familiar, the subclass is a clear upgrade on the vanilla Evoker. The spell list is satisfying and the class makes for a straightforward blaster, which is a fun power fantasy. Like druids and priests (but not your other subclasses), it struggles in the early game; but around level 5, the sorcerer starts to have enough casts to have options; by level 7, it probably feels quite powerful. Sorcerer would be easy to play all the way through as a single class, though maybe not exciting. I see no reason, though, why anyone would multiclass with it. It still feels noticeably weaker and less interesting than the Necromancer, even if it can empower its spells and has a rather small chance of randomly doubling a spell.
Perhaps consider ways to make the Sorcerer more unique or give the Arcanist some single-class potential. Maybe the Arcanist could get a bonus to scroll use or functionality to jazz it up. If the Sorcerer could shape some of its spells to be foe-only, or apply its potential echo effect to all spells, not just sorceries, then it would lean into the blaster role, while also making a caster-caster multiclass more exciting. Spreading keywords might also do something similar and interesting. Previously, I've really enjoyed playing the base subclasses with the Caster Subclass and Keyword Tweaks mod, which encourages a variety of interesting class combinations that honestly should have been possible in the vanilla game. I'm sure it would be a ton of work to assign "necromancy" and "sorcery" keywords to all the other classes' spells, but it could add a lot of interesting options. Also, it feels really strange that the Necromancer doesn't get access to some version of the chanter's skeleton or ghost summoning (probably at a slightly higher level), which would be both useful and thematic without being overpowered.
It's awesome that you tried them all! Glad you liked the necromancer. I won't add skeleton/ghost summoning because they're part of the chanter. Clearly you'd see the reason to multiclass as Necromancer/Chanter! I promise new spells will come, though. I published the mod to get feedback, but it's a work in progress.
I described the arcanist with "lightnings, confounding pyrotechnic displays, disruption". They're packed with tools: an interrupt at every level, dazes and pushes to disengage, Arcane Dampener, beneficial effect reduction with the new spells (and I'm personally a fan of Jernaugh's Equalizing Burst). The lightnings were direly missing, I agree! Hopefully the 4 shock spells that I made feel fresh and exciting. I don't doubt that it's not valuable to regenerate Thrust of Tattered Veils in Port Maje, but it's really not about self-buffs and short range. You missed the point! I'm still unsure whether Coalesce is a free lunch, but we'll see. Level 8 and 9 spells are a great reason to single class, by the way!
The evoker was already the best vanilla subclass, and I definitely wasn't trying to upgrade it. You're right that the double cast makes the subclass too much a "blaster", while not interacting at all with the wealth of self-buffs the sorcerer has. Incidentally, said buffs would be a very good reason to multiclass, since the sorcerer has extra casts for free, but if that still doesn't feel relevant I'll change the double cast to something cooler. (Some dispelling dragon breath maybe)
Spreading keywords doesn't sound fun. It'd just make some combinations optimal (e.g., Sorcerer/Priest >>> Sorcerer/Monk) and there's already a plethora of ways to stack power levels. Power levels also disproportionately benefit damage, which is clearly part of your "power fantasy", but this mod is more "Tools of Adventuring" than "The Ultimate Blaster". Passive bonuses are also more boring than active abilities that interact in some synergistic way (Dazzling Lights to surely hit your Puppet Master >>> doing more damage with priest spells because you selected Sorcerer). Same goes for scroll bonuses, that no other subclass has anyway.
To explain a bit my point of view, I'd like to preserve the feel of the original game, bringing novelty rather than power. Indeed, the grimoires are all new and some are special, there are many new spells and more will come, and I might make some item. I'd love more feedback on that too! The subclasses don't need to break the game. There's plenty of mods to feel super powerful, so I think I can still add cool content to the ecosystem by modding with some constraints, even if it's not necessarily the most popular approach.
I'm really enjoying your approach to revamping wizardry in this game, and I'm thrilled that people are still modding it!
I've noticed a couple of weird things so far (class descriptions on character creation have some of the text of the vanilla classes; my necromancer can learn Concelhaut's staff, but can't actually cast it because it says "ability unavailable"), but I'm not sure if they're the result of conflicts with other mods. I'll keep playing around and see if I can figure stuff out.
Thanks a lot for the support! :) The game keeps pulling me in, so might as well spice it up with some modding!
I've just uploaded a fix for Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. Somehow it slipped twice into the keyword file. Tested it right now, you can just delete the old files and replace them with the new version. Which text doesn't match the class, if you don't mind hopping into character creation again? It seems correct on my end!
I appreciate the feedback! I'm playing as necromancer too. Single class?
I just rolled a single-class sorcerer to see what's going on with the text. On creation, the names and general descriptions are fine, but the "Bonus" and "Penalty" sections still display text from the old subclasses. Going into my built character screen, the Sorcerer passive in the top row also contains the old bonus and penalty text for the evoker subclass.
Also, in character creation, I have the option to pick "No Subclass" and "Bloodmage," which is a separate entry from Necromancer, though the preview shows the same ability tree as the "No Subclass" option, without the Blood Sacrifice or any of the original Bloodmage kit.
Some of this might be related to my other mods, but I've removed any caster-specific mods, though retained all the general overhauls, like the Community Patches and BalancingPolish mods. If anything, they're the likely culprits, though I've put your mod at the end of the load order.
I'm going to play this sorcerer to the end of the first island and then write up some of my observations about balance (hint: sorcerer feels kind of weak compared to the other two or even the original evoker, but I love the familiars!).
I thought I could keep the Blood Mage subclass without breaking it. Whoops! I'll just hide it for now. Thanks for noticing.
Now the SummaryText of the Sorcerer subclass references a random number instead of the original, that was probably overridden by some other mod. I hope it works for you! Here's what I see: https://ibb.co/gZWn4Wm
Thank you for giving all the classes a try! I've played with Fassina as Sorcerer until level 16, and the fact that she has so many spells "for free" compared to the other subclasses made her super strong, probably even too much. Notice that Sorcerers have all the bonuses Evokers had! Still, it's definitely true that the Sorcerer is the worst of the bunch early, limited by the few power levels. What do you think about Necromancers not having the Empower?
The familiars are awesome, glad you liked them! They felt good throughout the game.
11 comments
Regardless, thank you for your continued work on this mod!
For context, I play in turn-based mode, so the initiative penalties aren't hugely upsetting to me. I play TB because my playstyle values complexity, synergy, and all that fiddly micromanagement, which is why I play a lot of casters. I love mods like yours because they deepen the mechanics of the game, though I appreciate that you try to maintain the balance. For reference, a mod like Wizard Revision adds lots of really interesting passives and mechanics, but makes a single-class wizard vastly overpowered, especially Evokers.
I've now played all three of your wizard subclasses through the first island. I know that's not enough to really judge them by, but it's a start. At that stage, Necromancer felt like a clear winner. That early in the game, Blood Sacrifice is hugely satisfying and helpful, the spell list has great options for regaining life and doing interesting things, and the subclass feels beautifully thematic. The extra power level from Blood Sacrifice is very nice (and noticeably absent from the other? subclasses), and losing access to Empower didn’t really bother me, but I’m really bad about using Empower anyway (I hoard it the way I needlessly hoard scrolls). Of the three subclasses, Necromancer felt like it would be the most fun to play all the way through as a single class, though there are some interesting multi-class themes that I could imagine.
Arcanist felt the least thematic, for better or worse. By itself, it didn’t feel like a coherent power fantasy, but that might just be because the spells I got to just weren’t my cup of lightning. While playing it, I kept wishing I had multiclassed it with a martial character, where it would really shine. Multiclassing would make the most of the ability to regenerate low-level buffs and close-range spells. The pacing and level limit of the Coalesce ability feels right, and the new spells look interesting (even though I didn’t get to many of them), but the subclass lacked the complexity of Blood Sacrifice or the potential excitement of the Sorcerer’s echo. I hadn’t yet found something that would keep me hooked through a playthrough.
Sorcerer grew on me. With the extra spell casts and the familiar, the subclass is a clear upgrade on the vanilla Evoker. The spell list is satisfying and the class makes for a straightforward blaster, which is a fun power fantasy. Like druids and priests (but not your other subclasses), it struggles in the early game; but around level 5, the sorcerer starts to have enough casts to have options; by level 7, it probably feels quite powerful. Sorcerer would be easy to play all the way through as a single class, though maybe not exciting. I see no reason, though, why anyone would multiclass with it. It still feels noticeably weaker and less interesting than the Necromancer, even if it can empower its spells and has a rather small chance of randomly doubling a spell.
Perhaps consider ways to make the Sorcerer more unique or give the Arcanist some single-class potential. Maybe the Arcanist could get a bonus to scroll use or functionality to jazz it up. If the Sorcerer could shape some of its spells to be foe-only, or apply its potential echo effect to all spells, not just sorceries, then it would lean into the blaster role, while also making a caster-caster multiclass more exciting. Spreading keywords might also do something similar and interesting. Previously, I've really enjoyed playing the base subclasses with the Caster Subclass and Keyword Tweaks mod, which encourages a variety of interesting class combinations that honestly should have been possible in the vanilla game. I'm sure it would be a ton of work to assign "necromancy" and "sorcery" keywords to all the other classes' spells, but it could add a lot of interesting options. Also, it feels really strange that the Necromancer doesn't get access to some version of the chanter's skeleton or ghost summoning (probably at a slightly higher level), which would be both useful and thematic without being overpowered.
I described the arcanist with "lightnings, confounding pyrotechnic displays, disruption". They're packed with tools: an interrupt at every level, dazes and pushes to disengage, Arcane Dampener, beneficial effect reduction with the new spells (and I'm personally a fan of Jernaugh's Equalizing Burst). The lightnings were direly missing, I agree! Hopefully the 4 shock spells that I made feel fresh and exciting. I don't doubt that it's not valuable to regenerate Thrust of Tattered Veils in Port Maje, but it's really not about self-buffs and short range. You missed the point! I'm still unsure whether Coalesce is a free lunch, but we'll see. Level 8 and 9 spells are a great reason to single class, by the way!
The evoker was already the best vanilla subclass, and I definitely wasn't trying to upgrade it. You're right that the double cast makes the subclass too much a "blaster", while not interacting at all with the wealth of self-buffs the sorcerer has. Incidentally, said buffs would be a very good reason to multiclass, since the sorcerer has extra casts for free, but if that still doesn't feel relevant I'll change the double cast to something cooler. (Some dispelling dragon breath maybe)
Spreading keywords doesn't sound fun. It'd just make some combinations optimal (e.g., Sorcerer/Priest >>> Sorcerer/Monk) and there's already a plethora of ways to stack power levels. Power levels also disproportionately benefit damage, which is clearly part of your "power fantasy", but this mod is more "Tools of Adventuring" than "The Ultimate Blaster". Passive bonuses are also more boring than active abilities that interact in some synergistic way (Dazzling Lights to surely hit your Puppet Master >>> doing more damage with priest spells because you selected Sorcerer). Same goes for scroll bonuses, that no other subclass has anyway.
To explain a bit my point of view, I'd like to preserve the feel of the original game, bringing novelty rather than power. Indeed, the grimoires are all new and some are special, there are many new spells and more will come, and I might make some item. I'd love more feedback on that too! The subclasses don't need to break the game. There's plenty of mods to feel super powerful, so I think I can still add cool content to the ecosystem by modding with some constraints, even if it's not necessarily the most popular approach.
Thanks again for the feedback!
I've noticed a couple of weird things so far (class descriptions on character creation have some of the text of the vanilla classes; my necromancer can learn Concelhaut's staff, but can't actually cast it because it says "ability unavailable"), but I'm not sure if they're the result of conflicts with other mods. I'll keep playing around and see if I can figure stuff out.
I've just uploaded a fix for Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. Somehow it slipped twice into the keyword file. Tested it right now, you can just delete the old files and replace them with the new version.
Which text doesn't match the class, if you don't mind hopping into character creation again? It seems correct on my end!
I appreciate the feedback! I'm playing as necromancer too. Single class?
Also, in character creation, I have the option to pick "No Subclass" and "Bloodmage," which is a separate entry from Necromancer, though the preview shows the same ability tree as the "No Subclass" option, without the Blood Sacrifice or any of the original Bloodmage kit.
Some of this might be related to my other mods, but I've removed any caster-specific mods, though retained all the general overhauls, like the Community Patches and BalancingPolish mods. If anything, they're the likely culprits, though I've put your mod at the end of the load order.
I'm going to play this sorcerer to the end of the first island and then write up some of my observations about balance (hint: sorcerer feels kind of weak compared to the other two or even the original evoker, but I love the familiars!).
Now the SummaryText of the Sorcerer subclass references a random number instead of the original, that was probably overridden by some other mod. I hope it works for you! Here's what I see: https://ibb.co/gZWn4Wm
Thank you for giving all the classes a try! I've played with Fassina as Sorcerer until level 16, and the fact that she has so many spells "for free" compared to the other subclasses made her super strong, probably even too much. Notice that Sorcerers have all the bonuses Evokers had! Still, it's definitely true that the Sorcerer is the worst of the bunch early, limited by the few power levels. What do you think about Necromancers not having the Empower?
The familiars are awesome, glad you liked them! They felt good throughout the game.