This may be a game bug or a mod bug not sure. Current playthrough I did this: ***All squadmates unloyal and zaeed already dead via kill zaeed mod
jack/thane/legion approach (tali/kasumi protected on intruder team) jacob vent garrus 2nd fireteam leader grunt long walk with miranda as biotic; also brought mordin crew sent back unescorted hold the line kasumi 0, mordin 0, tali 0 (avg of 0 so all 3 should die) final fight miranda, samara
So Kasumi lived, everyone else died. In the cutscene Shepard asks Joker about the HTL crew and he says they never made it back. But there's Kasumi safe and sound on the ship. The mod is at least partially working because Shepard didnt die. Re possible second bug...I decided if I had to keep one alive I'd rather have Miranda. So I reloaded Collector base mission and swapped spots for Miranda and Kasumi. Joker again said HTL crew never made it back but Miranda was alive on the ship (the math says she should survive the HTL). The bug I had was since Miranda was my only remaining squadmate I tried to do her loyalty mission and was unable to even launch the mission because I was unable to select a second squadmate. Any help would be appreciated. It is apparently difficult to find anyone that has used kasumi/mordin/tali as their "hold the line crew" to confirm normal game behavior. In the screenshots for the mod would you be willing to share the method you used?
***EDIT: For anyone reading this in the future, the flow chart that people use for the suicide mission is inaccurate for 2 HTL scenarios. Specifically the hold the line math says that if there is an average of 0 then everyone dies. Results of legendary edition testing using this mod prove different: 2 - avg of 0 all HTL members do indeed die 3 - avg of 0, 1 HTL member lives 4 - avg of 0, Jack lives, has to be Jack as the only way to have 4 with an average of 0 is Mordin, Kasumi, Tali, Jack Hoping this may save someone time in the future.
What version of the mod are you using? 1.0 had a bug where Joker was less reliable about telling you whether there was a single survivor. 1.1 should improve this though I think there could still be edge cases.
I will look into the Miranda loyalty mission issue. Usually the squad select is okay about letting you choose a single squadmate, but perhaps this one is working differently... Thanks for reporting it, that's the kind of blocking issue we want to know about.
I'm using 1.1. POST EDITED....Tested a bunch of things, determined the results I'm getting are all game issues and nothing to do with the mod, the only exception being the previously mentioned Miranda loyalty mission issue. Thanks for all your work and an awesome mod.
Yeah, Hold the Line logic is not affected by this mod at all. Though that is an interesting finding re: survival rates at 0 average. I do wonder if that was also true in OT (and an error in the flow chart) or if it was a change.
But you are correct on the loyalty mission issue. The selection of a single squadmate doesn't work when a squadmate is already preselected. A fix for this, and what I hope is a better solution to Joker's line about survivors, is included in version 1.2 which I just uploaded.
If you now start someone's loyalty mission and they are your only squadmate, the pre-selection is disabled meaning you will manually choose them, triggering the option to accept your squad choices.
The flowchart is moslty but not exactly correct, afaik the Hold the Line calculation is the same in OT and LE, and it goes: - Take the number of points given for each squadmate in the flowchart and add +1 (e.g. non-loyal Mordin gets 1 point, loyal Garrus gets 5 points, etc). - Make the total and divide by 3 (rounding down), and that is the number of survivors.
I haven't played it yet, I'm going to at some point, but MAN, I gotta ask, what is the Citadel DLC party like if all the squadmates die in this one? I can only imagine how barren and desolate it would be...there'll hardly be anyone there! .......I can't wait to try it at some point! Haha.
The party is pretty hilarious in that case. It's why Joker invites a few mandatory people. You'll always end up with Joker, EDI, Liara, Cortez, Vega and Traynor. That way there are always three conversation groups of a minimum of two people for each phase of the party. But as you can imagine the conversations are uhhh...shorter... And the picture on the couch at the end is pretty amusing. My memory is that Vega ends up standing at the back like four feet from anyone else saluting on his lonesome.
It seems this mod is incompatible with a mod called Liara squadmate. I would like to know if there is any chance you might take a look at the mod to try to make them compatible with each other?
That mod mounted over every other current LE2 mod. Compatibility patches have to be hosted by the higher mounted mod. That mod's dev created an autopatcher so that most of the compatibility issues could be automated. The problem is that nexus has quarantined the .exe file and the dev so far hasn't made it available in any other way. Essentially - as I understand it - the mod deliberately mounts high in order to provide a compatibility via a method that isn't currently available. Which is, obviously, not an ideal situation for any of us. Especially given how many files that mod ships.
This mod has open permissions for compatibility patches. If the other dev wants to make a patch for this one they're free to do so. The main technical issue I would foresee is whether Liara has been properly added to the squadmate count. We have edited the GUI select screen for this mod so that if no squadmates are available to select, it will not be made available. In which case, if you killed everyone except Liara during the suicide mission and she didn't register as a squadmate - i.e. the game thought the number of party members was 0 - then you wouldn't be able to actually select her post-Suicide Mission to go and do any missions.
To be honest, I have a ton of projects on at the moment, and no time to give this any focused attention. Especially given the nature of this mod, I imagine the number of people who'd want to use them both would be very small. Plus - as noted - even if I did want to, I literally can't address this from this end. Any changes I make to this mod would be overwritten by the LE2 Liara Squadmate mod.
If the other dev feels like addressing it then - as noted - permissions for compatibility patches are open. But given the autopatching tool remains inaccessible weeks after release, I'm not sure how much of a priority compatibility is for them (which is, of course, their prerogative.)
Inaccessible is not quite true since the project is publicly available on GitHub but you would have to build from source atm. Doing some pretty major refactoring there, specifically with how dependencies with LegendaryExplorer are handled, still figuring things out there, haven't used .net before, most likely gonna stick to mgamerz' suggestion and add LE as a submodule. Was gonna check with nexusmods to get my files verified once I get that done, should be in the next few days but I do have some projects I have to hand in to university as well, which should take priority ;)
?We have edited the GUI select screen
Are you referring to the ActionScript within GUI_SF_TeamSelect.TeamSelect? I did set nCharacters to 13 there and Liara has been added to the lstPartyInfo array, though I'm not sure if that's what you mean by squadmate count. And if you did mod that file I would like to know what you've changed exactly, assuming you didn't have to change as much there as I did it would be far less painful to apply your changes to my version than the other way around :)
One thing to note is that Liara is guaranteed to survive, she is not currently selectable for any specialist / fireteam leader roles, is loyal as soon as in party and her Kill_NonLoyal_Squad sequence always results in "Survived" or "Not In Squad" and she's not really part of any other kill logic. Additionally, she is not included in the Determine_Player_Ending sequence in BioD_EndGm2_440CutsceneRoll.pcc, so her survival does not affect the outcome. Briefly glancing at Determine_Player_Ending it seems that Shepard dies if the surviving party is < 2? I assume that's because you're supposed to have 2 squadmates available, might make sense to count Liara there anyway, since you only need one other squadmate then.
?We have edited the GUI select screen for this mod so that if no squadmates are available to select, it will not be made available
Shouldn't it be disabled if the number of squadmates that are enabled is < 2? Or does it also lower the number of required squadmates to 1? Because otherwise I'd imagine you'd be stuck in the squad selection screen if there is only 1 option available.
?We have edited the GUI select screen for this mod so that if no squadmates are available to select, it will not be made available
If this uses the InPartyLabel of lstMemberInfo it should be fine, since this is mapped to plot bool 6961 for Liara (getting into the cab after meeting Liara during LotSB), which should remain true no matter the outcome, meaning Liara will count as in party as expected. But again, I'm not sure if and how you calculate the squadmate count or if there is a plot int for that.
I mean, sure, but it's functionally inaccessible to most of the people who are gonna want to use it. Most people aren't gonna have the software or knowhow to compile it themselves. I'm sure whatever Mgamerz has suggested is the best way forwards and can understand wanting to take the time to get it done correctly. But until then, it's gonna be in a pretty incompatible state with a bunch of other major mods. Which is honestly okay - not all mods have to be compatible - including these two, especially since this one's pretty niche interest. But it leads to questions from people who want to use them. I'm happy to answer questions in case you'd like to ship a patch (and also don't mind if it's not work you want to undertake.)
We basically hijacked the kismet sequencing. Integer 22 counts the number of people currently in Shepard's party. (Party = recruited and on the Normandy. Squad = the current squad out on the mission). That's the integer we use to determine whether Shepard is running around with fewer than the expected 2 squadmates.
The party select screen does need to appear for a single squadmate. This doesn't cause a crash or a lock, you can select a single squadmate and - if no others are available - the mission will start as expected. If you skip the selection screen when you have a single squadmate, you can't select them, and then you start the mission solo, even if you have a surviving squadmate.
Without having tested it, it's hard to be sure, but I suspect that replicating our changes into your files would work if recruiting Liara successfully increments Integer 22. I'm not sure where this is set. If it's part of the global routines in the BioP files (which would make sense given it seems to be updated after the ends of missions, not dynamically during missions), then it's possible your mod already does this. Our GUI Select Screen edits are pretty much all working against this integer.
Regarding adding Liara to the sequence that counts whether Shepard has enough squadmates to survive, this can't use Int 22 because it updates after missions are completed and the squadmates die during the mission. Adding Liara to that logic shouldn't cause any additional problems with having her out and about as a squadmate. The game expects two squadmates to be able to interact with stuff in cutscenes (which I'm assuming Liara does without issue) and to be able to speak (which she will not do). Most of the time this will be a non-issue as there'll be a line for the other squadmate you have selected. But there are places where they've cut corners and only written lines for "all-but-one" of the squadmates since they know you need 2 of them to be present. This can lead to you getting kicked out of conversations early if you hit a place where you have Liara and whatever squadmate coincidentally didn't get a line written for them. Rarely, lack of squadmate dialogue can lead to softlocks, but I'm not aware of anywhere that would be true when you have only one non-speaking squadmate with you. That's usually pretty safe. But if you get reports of Liara causing conversations to end abruptly, or the game stalling because there's no one to speak a line, that could be what's going on.
The worst offender for this problem is, hands down, Horizon. Which you won't have to worry about because LotSB doesn't trigger until later in the game (even with the Early Recruitment mod, that DLC is gated til post-Horizon).
?if recruiting Liara successfully increments Integer 22. I'm not sure where this is set.
I don't think it does. Checking a save file created after recruiting Liara integer 22 is still set to 12. I haven't come across this integer before and I am currently a bit confused where it is used and how it is updated. I checked Tali's recruitment mission (BioP_SunTlA.pcc) and couldn't find anything and there doesn't seem to be a single state transition for plot int 22 in Startup_INT. I tried to grep 'm_nIndex: 22$' but could only find PMCheckState objects for plot bool 22 so far. Also tried to find usages in EndGm files, as I guess this integer should be decremented for squadmate deaths and could again only find usages for plot bool 22 in PMCheckState objects. The Global_Routines do set the loyalty plot bools for loyalty missions but I couldn't find anything for recruitment missions updating plot int 22.
?But there are places where they've cut corners and only written lines for "all-but-one" of the squadmates since they know you need 2 of them to be present
I have noticed one such case, when talking to Wrex about Grunt's rite of passage, the other squadmate is supposed to say something to which Wrex replies "I don't care what you aliens call it". In this case Liara of course just doesn't actually say anything and Wrex' reply doesn't make sense but other than that the dialogue continues normally, so it's not a big issue.
Yeah, the instances where lack of squadmate dialogue is game-breaking rather than just buggy are fortunately few. You will sometimes get properly thrown out of a conversation. It's mainly a softlock issue if there's a line of ambient dialogue that's got to trigger as part of a sequence of events outside of a regular conversation, and there's no one there to speak it. This happens on Horizon and at the end of one of the Hammerhead missions off the top of my head, but requires neither squadmate to have any lines to happen.
But yeah, I hadn't considered that in situations like loyalty missions where you have a scripted squadmate, there wouldn't be any replacement for the other one's lines if you've got Liara with you. In that case you're probably gonna get a higher instance of buggy behaviour.
Int 22 was my go-to solution to the problem of working out how many squadmates were around because I was already familiar with it from when I made Early Recruitment and Trigger Buttons. Both of them amend the logic around triggering some of the major missions and some of those missions count the number of squadmates to make sure you can't launch into the Suicide Mission without enough to complete it. So the Collector Ship won't trigger unless you have 8 recruited squadmates, for instance. It's also used to check whether or not you can abandon Zaeed if you do his loyalty mission post-suicide mission (again to prevent you ending up with fewer than 2 squadmates).
But I can't see that its present in any existing transitions or manually set during the global routines, or anything like that. Looks to me like it's handled in BioD_Nor's global routines and a few other places, via a custom class - setplotpartysize - which is probably automatically checking whose in the party and counting them, but the internal logic won't show in the package file dumps. It'll be defined in SFXGame. I'm no coder, but I'm guessing you'd be able to understand how to add her in there. SFXGame can't be shipped in DLC, it has to be edited in basegame. Fortunately there's a merge format that can be used for most things - documentation here: https://github.com/ME3Tweaks/ME3TweaksModManager/blob/master/documentation/merge_mods.md
Again - possibly of use to you even if you don't want to pursue this specific compatibility issue.
Tried a few loyalty missions (Grunt, Mordin, Garrus, Tali, Jacob, Thane) the issue with Wrex I mentioned is luckily the worst one yet. Often times the other squadmate doesn't have any lines anyway and when they do it just skips them, at least for now.
?it has to be edited in basegame. Fortunately there's a merge format that can be used for most things
Done ;) Here's hoping it doesn't end up breaking anything unexpected. Just had to edit the script to check plot bool 6961 (InPartyLiara / Started_Car_Chase (LotSB)) and increment nPartyCount if true. Loaded up a save and boarded the Normandy and plot int 22 is indeed set to 13 now.
I've always wanted something like this from a role playing standpoint. My usual psychological profile is Sole Survivor so this would go well with it. I think this can be done two different ways. Tragic Paragon Shepard who survives despite all their friends and comrades dying and a self-centered survival at all costs Renegade who is willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone so long as they survive in the end.
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***All squadmates unloyal and zaeed already dead via kill zaeed mod
jack/thane/legion approach (tali/kasumi protected on intruder team)
jacob vent
garrus 2nd fireteam leader
grunt long walk with miranda as biotic; also brought mordin
crew sent back unescorted
hold the line kasumi 0, mordin 0, tali 0 (avg of 0 so all 3 should die)
final fight miranda, samara
So Kasumi lived, everyone else died. In the cutscene Shepard asks Joker about the HTL crew and he says they never made it back. But there's Kasumi safe and sound on the ship. The mod is at least partially working because Shepard didnt die. Re possible second bug...I decided if I had to keep one alive I'd rather have Miranda. So I reloaded Collector base mission and swapped spots for Miranda and Kasumi. Joker again said HTL crew never made it back but Miranda was alive on the ship (the math says she should survive the HTL). The bug I had was since Miranda was my only remaining squadmate I tried to do her loyalty mission and was unable to even launch the mission because I was unable to select a second squadmate. Any help would be appreciated. It is apparently difficult to find anyone that has used kasumi/mordin/tali as their "hold the line crew" to confirm normal game behavior. In the screenshots for the mod would you be willing to share the method you used?
***EDIT: For anyone reading this in the future, the flow chart that people use for the suicide mission is inaccurate for 2 HTL scenarios. Specifically the hold the line math says that if there is an average of 0 then everyone dies. Results of legendary edition testing using this mod prove different:
2 - avg of 0 all HTL members do indeed die
3 - avg of 0, 1 HTL member lives
4 - avg of 0, Jack lives, has to be Jack as the only way to have 4 with an average of 0 is Mordin, Kasumi, Tali, Jack
Hoping this may save someone time in the future.
I will look into the Miranda loyalty mission issue. Usually the squad select is okay about letting you choose a single squadmate, but perhaps this one is working differently... Thanks for reporting it, that's the kind of blocking issue we want to know about.
But you are correct on the loyalty mission issue. The selection of a single squadmate doesn't work when a squadmate is already preselected. A fix for this, and what I hope is a better solution to Joker's line about survivors, is included in version 1.2 which I just uploaded.
If you now start someone's loyalty mission and they are your only squadmate, the pre-selection is disabled meaning you will manually choose them, triggering the option to accept your squad choices.
- Take the number of points given for each squadmate in the flowchart and add +1 (e.g. non-loyal Mordin gets 1 point, loyal Garrus gets 5 points, etc).
- Make the total and divide by 3 (rounding down), and that is the number of survivors.
The party is pretty hilarious in that case. It's why Joker invites a few mandatory people. You'll always end up with Joker, EDI, Liara, Cortez, Vega and Traynor. That way there are always three conversation groups of a minimum of two people for each phase of the party. But as you can imagine the conversations are uhhh...shorter... And the picture on the couch at the end is pretty amusing. My memory is that Vega ends up standing at the back like four feet from anyone else saluting on his lonesome.
This mod has open permissions for compatibility patches. If the other dev wants to make a patch for this one they're free to do so. The main technical issue I would foresee is whether Liara has been properly added to the squadmate count. We have edited the GUI select screen for this mod so that if no squadmates are available to select, it will not be made available. In which case, if you killed everyone except Liara during the suicide mission and she didn't register as a squadmate - i.e. the game thought the number of party members was 0 - then you wouldn't be able to actually select her post-Suicide Mission to go and do any missions.
To be honest, I have a ton of projects on at the moment, and no time to give this any focused attention. Especially given the nature of this mod, I imagine the number of people who'd want to use them both would be very small. Plus - as noted - even if I did want to, I literally can't address this from this end. Any changes I make to this mod would be overwritten by the LE2 Liara Squadmate mod.
If the other dev feels like addressing it then - as noted - permissions for compatibility patches are open. But given the autopatching tool remains inaccessible weeks after release, I'm not sure how much of a priority compatibility is for them (which is, of course, their prerogative.)
Are you referring to the ActionScript within GUI_SF_TeamSelect.TeamSelect? I did set nCharacters to 13 there and Liara has been added to the lstPartyInfo array, though I'm not sure if that's what you mean by squadmate count. And if you did mod that file I would like to know what you've changed exactly, assuming you didn't have to change as much there as I did it would be far less painful to apply your changes to my version than the other way around :)
One thing to note is that Liara is guaranteed to survive, she is not currently selectable for any specialist / fireteam leader roles, is loyal as soon as in party and her Kill_NonLoyal_Squad sequence always results in "Survived" or "Not In Squad" and she's not really part of any other kill logic. Additionally, she is not included in the Determine_Player_Ending sequence in BioD_EndGm2_440CutsceneRoll.pcc, so her survival does not affect the outcome. Briefly glancing at Determine_Player_Ending it seems that Shepard dies if the surviving party is < 2? I assume that's because you're supposed to have 2 squadmates available, might make sense to count Liara there anyway, since you only need one other squadmate then.
Shouldn't it be disabled if the number of squadmates that are enabled is < 2? Or does it also lower the number of required squadmates to 1? Because otherwise I'd imagine you'd be stuck in the squad selection screen if there is only 1 option available.
If this uses the InPartyLabel of lstMemberInfo it should be fine, since this is mapped to plot bool 6961 for Liara (getting into the cab after meeting Liara during LotSB), which should remain true no matter the outcome, meaning Liara will count as in party as expected. But again, I'm not sure if and how you calculate the squadmate count or if there is a plot int for that.
We basically hijacked the kismet sequencing. Integer 22 counts the number of people currently in Shepard's party. (Party = recruited and on the Normandy. Squad = the current squad out on the mission). That's the integer we use to determine whether Shepard is running around with fewer than the expected 2 squadmates.
The party select screen does need to appear for a single squadmate. This doesn't cause a crash or a lock, you can select a single squadmate and - if no others are available - the mission will start as expected. If you skip the selection screen when you have a single squadmate, you can't select them, and then you start the mission solo, even if you have a surviving squadmate.
Without having tested it, it's hard to be sure, but I suspect that replicating our changes into your files would work if recruiting Liara successfully increments Integer 22. I'm not sure where this is set. If it's part of the global routines in the BioP files (which would make sense given it seems to be updated after the ends of missions, not dynamically during missions), then it's possible your mod already does this. Our GUI Select Screen edits are pretty much all working against this integer.
Regarding adding Liara to the sequence that counts whether Shepard has enough squadmates to survive, this can't use Int 22 because it updates after missions are completed and the squadmates die during the mission. Adding Liara to that logic shouldn't cause any additional problems with having her out and about as a squadmate. The game expects two squadmates to be able to interact with stuff in cutscenes (which I'm assuming Liara does without issue) and to be able to speak (which she will not do). Most of the time this will be a non-issue as there'll be a line for the other squadmate you have selected. But there are places where they've cut corners and only written lines for "all-but-one" of the squadmates since they know you need 2 of them to be present. This can lead to you getting kicked out of conversations early if you hit a place where you have Liara and whatever squadmate coincidentally didn't get a line written for them. Rarely, lack of squadmate dialogue can lead to softlocks, but I'm not aware of anywhere that would be true when you have only one non-speaking squadmate with you. That's usually pretty safe. But if you get reports of Liara causing conversations to end abruptly, or the game stalling because there's no one to speak a line, that could be what's going on.
The worst offender for this problem is, hands down, Horizon. Which you won't have to worry about because LotSB doesn't trigger until later in the game (even with the Early Recruitment mod, that DLC is gated til post-Horizon).
I don't think it does. Checking a save file created after recruiting Liara integer 22 is still set to 12. I haven't come across this integer before and I am currently a bit confused where it is used and how it is updated. I checked Tali's recruitment mission (BioP_SunTlA.pcc) and couldn't find anything and there doesn't seem to be a single state transition for plot int 22 in Startup_INT. I tried to grep 'm_nIndex: 22$' but could only find PMCheckState objects for plot bool 22 so far. Also tried to find usages in EndGm files, as I guess this integer should be decremented for squadmate deaths and could again only find usages for plot bool 22 in PMCheckState objects. The Global_Routines do set the loyalty plot bools for loyalty missions but I couldn't find anything for recruitment missions updating plot int 22.
I have noticed one such case, when talking to Wrex about Grunt's rite of passage, the other squadmate is supposed to say something to which Wrex replies "I don't care what you aliens call it". In this case Liara of course just doesn't actually say anything and Wrex' reply doesn't make sense but other than that the dialogue continues normally, so it's not a big issue.
But yeah, I hadn't considered that in situations like loyalty missions where you have a scripted squadmate, there wouldn't be any replacement for the other one's lines if you've got Liara with you. In that case you're probably gonna get a higher instance of buggy behaviour.
Int 22 was my go-to solution to the problem of working out how many squadmates were around because I was already familiar with it from when I made Early Recruitment and Trigger Buttons. Both of them amend the logic around triggering some of the major missions and some of those missions count the number of squadmates to make sure you can't launch into the Suicide Mission without enough to complete it. So the Collector Ship won't trigger unless you have 8 recruited squadmates, for instance. It's also used to check whether or not you can abandon Zaeed if you do his loyalty mission post-suicide mission (again to prevent you ending up with fewer than 2 squadmates).
But I can't see that its present in any existing transitions or manually set during the global routines, or anything like that. Looks to me like it's handled in BioD_Nor's global routines and a few other places, via a custom class - setplotpartysize - which is probably automatically checking whose in the party and counting them, but the internal logic won't show in the package file dumps. It'll be defined in SFXGame. I'm no coder, but I'm guessing you'd be able to understand how to add her in there. SFXGame can't be shipped in DLC, it has to be edited in basegame. Fortunately there's a merge format that can be used for most things - documentation here: https://github.com/ME3Tweaks/ME3TweaksModManager/blob/master/documentation/merge_mods.md
Again - possibly of use to you even if you don't want to pursue this specific compatibility issue.
Done ;) Here's hoping it doesn't end up breaking anything unexpected. Just had to edit the script to check plot bool 6961 (InPartyLiara / Started_Car_Chase (LotSB)) and increment nPartyCount if true. Loaded up a save and boarded the Normandy and plot int 22 is indeed set to 13 now.