I now have the Steam version of the game for myself. The only mods that needed any touch-ups were BBS and DDD so that their title screens would show Load instead of Continue regardless of input type, and those updates are available now. Everything else works the same as before. Thanks for getting ahead of the curve and letting us know that nothing was flagrantly broken!
I really like this, but is it possible to get an alternate version that uses the KH3 names for everything, just not items? And names from later games in case of something not being present in KH3.
While it would be nice to offer as many different variations of this mod to account for as many different preferences in translation convention as possible, it is unfortunately not practical. The difficulty of altering text elements varies wildly between games and even between different types of text elements within the same game, so even a seemingly innocuous adjustment could require herculean effort. And no matter how many different versions I make, it's likely that almost none of them will be the exact one that any one person wants. The ideal solution would be some kind of front-end that would allow you to pick and choose every little change and customize it to your liking, but even if something like that is possible, it is way outside of my capabilities or what I'd realistically be willing to do.
I really just wanted to create something that would allow the games to line up better with each other and, hopefully, pick the terms that would please most people most of the time. Anything beyond that is probably not worth the effort.
Ok, but I was only referring to the things you have already changed, of course. Do you mean that changing that text to something else would potentially cause issues? For instance, MP Rage as Damage Syphon instead of MP Syphon. I also don't think you need to create a multitude of variants, your choices are generally fine, I was just interested in one that uses KH3 as the template for everything. Custom editing is certainly not necessary.
Maybe consider doing it for KH1 at least and see if it's well-received.
Thank you for the prompt and thorough reply anyway.
The thing I fear is that, if I make a "KH3 version" of the mod, there will undoubtedly be those that want a "KH2 version", and the implications of that are exhausting to even think about (one of the most "advertised", if you will, features of the Re:Fined mod was to change Limit Form's Limit names to the names they have in every other game in the series. Should I just ignore that in the "KH2 version"? What other exceptions should I or should I not make? etc.). And I think part of what I like about the mod series is that it isn't clearly going off of just one game. It was kind of like a "greatest hits" of all the localization efforts, every game contributing at least a little something while also compromising in certain areas to create something more than the sum of its parts.
That last part is pretty important; it's funny that you would mention Damage Syphon, as that was a relatively rare case in the mod series where I went with a translation convention that technically didn't exist in any of the games. See, while the games are more consistent in Japanese than in English, they aren't 100% perfect there either, and the English localizations would occasionally come up with some nifty features and standardizations that the Japanese versions didn't have that I did want to preserve if possible (in keeping with the philosophy of adjusting the localizations we did get instead of making new ones we didn't). In the case of the Rage/Syphon abilities (called "アスピル Asupiru, or "Aspir", in Japanese):
Most of the games simply had a ダメージアスピル Damēji Asupiru ability that restored... something when taking damage (usually MP, but it was Focus in BBS and Link in DDD). KH1 and 2 went with MP Rage, which has the name of what is restored in it, while later games just went the literal route with Damage Syphon.
However, there was a second version of this ability in KH2 called ダメージドライヴ Damēji Doraivu, which was the same thing, but it restored Drive. A bit... awkward when it drops the "Aspir" part that defines the ability type. Oh, well, at least the KH2 localization team used what the prior team had made and called it "Drive Rage"... or, at least, they would have if this wasn't KH2 and they just used literal translations for the most random things. "Damage Drive" is what we got, and it's so awkward that its connection to MP Rage could be easily missed.
That said, the Japanese convention made sense when KH3 had a bunch of accessories that gave you a Syphon ability that only activated when taking certain types of damage - ファイアアスピル Faia Asupiru (Fire Syphon), ダークアスピル Dāku Asupiru (Dark Syphon), etc.
But then it went and named the "Shotlock you use when out of Focus in order to regain Focus" ability フォーカスアスピル Fōkasu Asupiru (Focus Syphon), which makes no sense and which I consider it to be a straight-up mistake on the part of KH3's developers. This is why I changed it to "Focus Drain" - "Drain" typically refers to abilities that sap vitals from enemies on success rather than giving you a "pity" boost when you do something wrong. It even uses the same animations as a Shotlock that pulls HP orbs from enemies - "Drain Shock".
In the end, I decided to split the difference and use KH1 and 2's "(thing that gets restored) Rage" convention, but adopt the otherwise standard practice of "Aspir -> Syphon" (which was also important for a particular Gummi part in KH1 - these little connections pop up in the strangest places). This did cause a problem with those KH3 accessories, where I did end up just sticking with the Japanese "(damage type that triggers the ability) Syphon" convention - I briefly considered doing "Fire MP Syphon", but ultimately decided that it was okay to just let those slide leave them as-is - and I'm still not sure I made the right call there.
Other areas where I had to get a bit more creative were the Reprisals (another case where the English versions introduced a handy naming convention the Japanese version lacked as well as there being a fair number of inconsistencies in the original Japanese) and some Gummi parts (Shield? Barrier? Wall? Shell? Armor? Feels like both sides of the Pacific threw a dart to figure out what term(s) to use for each game).
TL;DR: All of this is to say that the thing I've learned the most in making this mod is that "things are always more complicated than they look". I started this mod with the intention of only doing the synthesis materials in KH1, 2, 3 and BBS, only to fall down a rabbit hole when I investigated how the abilities were inconsistent game-to-game. I fear that, in any effort to make a version of this mod series that is "like the normal version, but more like X game", we're just going to end up with something that is a) barely changed, b) goes against the spirit of what the mod is trying to accomplish in the first place, c) ends up changing the game that is supposed to be the "source of truth" anyway, or d) all three of the above.
That said, I went through the spreadsheet I used for the development of the mod, and for KH1 specifically, these would be the changes that would be made for a more KH3-centric version:
The replacement for the "Attack" command in the Hundred Acre Wood would be "Strike" instead of "Hit"
"Hurricane Blast" would be "Hurricane Winder" (honestly okay with this, I flip-flopped on Blast vs. Period vs. Winder constantly)
"EXP Zero" would be "Zero EXP" (every other experience related ability in the series has EXP at the start of the name, so I disagree with BBS and KH3 naming it the other way around)
"Jackpot" would be "Prize Boost" (technically, KH3 named it "Prize Plus", but since the whole point of the mod is consistency, it should REALLY be "Prize Boost" in keeping with the series-wide convention of "アップ Appu -> Boost"; I considered actually going with Prize Boost over Jackpot, but Jackpot is so iconic that I went with it in the interest of the "emotional attachment" guideline - and if we're overriding that guideline here and going with "Prize Boost", then "Lucky Strike" should also be changed to "Luck Boost" - see how one little change can cause an unintuitive cascading effect? This happened CONSTANTLY during the mod's development.)
"MP Syphon" (MP Rage originally) would be "Damage Syphon"
"Shield/G" (Shield-G originally) would be "Wall/G"
"Wall/G" (Shield2-G originally) would be "Shield/G"
And again, in the interest of consistency, there would still be pieces of KH3 that would get changed, not because of clashes with other games, but just within itself - there's all kinds of weirdness surrounding the use of the text "Auto-Shot" and its Reprisals are all over the place. Every time I've tried to figure out what this mod series would look like if I were to make one of the games untouchable, I've always run into something that is either undesirable or outright irreconcilable.
I do understand the desire to tinker with this concept and pull it in different directions, and I do very much appreciate the interest in my little mod series, but... I remain unconvinced that it would result in something desirable, and even if it did, I don't think it would be worth the effort.
An unbelievably thorough and well-written reply, I can't do anything other than be genuinely impressed--even awed--by you having taken the time to write all of that because of my simple request.
I understand completely, of course, and am happy to see you stick to your decisions.
I am uncertain, however, if many other variants would actually get requested. KH2 is a bit of an anomaly translation-wise, isn't it? I don't think anybody would ask for a KH2-centric version where Sonic Blade/Ars Arcanum/Ragnarok kept their KH2 names, which also applies to things like "Lucky Strike" and "Treasure Magnet" (even if "Draw" is the literal translation). I just can't see anybody wanting those names in any other game. If anything, all of that would be taken care of with a KH3-centric mod as well. KH1 would also likely not get requested since it was the first game and naming conventions hadn't been established (not that they were with KH2 either). It's like they tried a different direction in KH2 for many things, but then just reversed course for later games (probably because it was done by different teams). So I think it's quite unlikely that KH1 or KH2 would ever get requested as the basis for this type of mod, but I could be proven wrong, of course. Even if they are, a quick explanation of the aforementioned facts would probably change the requester's mind. That only leaves KH3 as a mainline game, with some other names pulled from games between it and KH2.
Regarding KH3, you could definitely make some changes there as well, even for a mod based on that game. "EXP Zero" is perfectly fine, of course, for consistency. "Hurricane Winder" is fine as "Hurricane Blast". "Prize Plus" is fine as "Jackpot" or maybe "Gummi Jackpot", while "Prize Proliferator" could just be normal "Jackpot" (even though it's better).
"Damage Drive" is an interesting one in KH2. I think your choice of "Drive Syphon" works well or maybe "Damage Syphon-D" or something, which would perhaps be a new type of name for an ability. "Damage Drive Syphon" doesn't sound too good either. Perhaps something like "Damage Conversion", "Damage Energizer" or "Damage Invigoration". It retains the "Damage" part instead of the "Syphon", then.
Again, thank you for commenting as thoroughly as you did.
KH1 and 2 had a specific translation. Since it was a FF game made by the FF team, their translations are based around Latin Mythology and Etymology. It's to help spice up translation instead of awkward and literal one. Like "Ars" Arcanum sounds way more interesting that "Last" Arcanum. Ragnarök sound more interesting than "Infinity". Same with Second Chance and Once More get odd surface level translation, "Withstand combo". It's made that way for accessibility because that's how KH3 was developed. The inconsistencies exist in the series because the design philosophy from the Tokyo Team to Osaka is not the same. Everything should follow the first two as it's the bread and butter of these series.
I'm not quite sure I follow... this mod series enforces all of the things you said are better. I agree that Ars Arcanum and Ragnarok are better terms than Last Arcanum and Infinity, which is one reason I made the mod change the latter to the former in the one game where the latter is used, which is KH2. I agree that Once More is a better term than Withstand Combo, which is one reason I changed the latter to the former in the one game where the latter is used, which is KH3.
The difference in design philosophy between the Tokyo and Osaka teams may have caused some of the inconsistencies through the series, but it is at best a very minor factor - I know this because most of these inconsistencies don't exist in the original Japanese. A much bigger reason is that the English localization teams changed. There was one for KH1, another for CoM and KH2, then a different one starting with Days (and they might still be the same one up to now, I don't quite remember...).
The main problem with designating KH1 and KH2 as the be-all-end-all "this game is GOSPEL" for the sake of consistency is that they are not consistent. Not with each other, not with what came later (or between), and sometimes not even within themselves. The English localizers made a lot of decisions that seemed entirely reasonable and innocent at the time, but ended up clashing and being incompatible with things that later games did. KH1 and 2's localizations would be very, very different if the original teams knew what we know now. And then there are things that I would argue were just straight-up mistakes. They might be the most iconic and popular games in the series (for good reason), but they are not infallible, especially when viewed as examples of Japanese to English localization for a new weird JRPG-plaformer hybrid concept in the early-to-mid 2000's. And once you actually sit down and start going through the weeds, it is always more complicated than you thought.
Also, please consider that some choices were made due to the feasibility of being able to actually pull it off in the mod. Changing around text in KH2 is quite easy precisely because it is popular and has had an extensive amount of community-made tools created for the purpose of modding it. BBS is also fairly straightforward (but not quite as much), CoM and DDD are nightmares to work with, KH1 is about half-and-half, and the UE4 games are so unbelievably effortless to change that all of the actual coding work for KH3 took about a half hour.
The purpose of the mod series isn't to create something that is cozy for KH1+2 stans (not that I don't get where they're coming from, I'm not too far off from being one myself, it's just not the goal here). It is so that the throughline running between these games is even just a little bit stronger, where the same thing has the same name every time, without regard to things like Tokyo -> Osaka design philosophy. That may not line up exactly perfectly with what the developers or official localization team were thinking at the time, but... that's why this is a mod. It is, above all, a product of hindsight, something the original teams did not and could not have.
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I really just wanted to create something that would allow the games to line up better with each other and, hopefully, pick the terms that would please most people most of the time. Anything beyond that is probably not worth the effort.
Maybe consider doing it for KH1 at least and see if it's well-received.
Thank you for the prompt and thorough reply anyway.
That last part is pretty important; it's funny that you would mention Damage Syphon, as that was a relatively rare case in the mod series where I went with a translation convention that technically didn't exist in any of the games. See, while the games are more consistent in Japanese than in English, they aren't 100% perfect there either, and the English localizations would occasionally come up with some nifty features and standardizations that the Japanese versions didn't have that I did want to preserve if possible (in keeping with the philosophy of adjusting the localizations we did get instead of making new ones we didn't). In the case of the Rage/Syphon abilities (called "アスピル Asupiru, or "Aspir", in Japanese):
Other areas where I had to get a bit more creative were the Reprisals (another case where the English versions introduced a handy naming convention the Japanese version lacked as well as there being a fair number of inconsistencies in the original Japanese) and some Gummi parts (Shield? Barrier? Wall? Shell? Armor? Feels like both sides of the Pacific threw a dart to figure out what term(s) to use for each game).
TL;DR: All of this is to say that the thing I've learned the most in making this mod is that "things are always more complicated than they look". I started this mod with the intention of only doing the synthesis materials in KH1, 2, 3 and BBS, only to fall down a rabbit hole when I investigated how the abilities were inconsistent game-to-game. I fear that, in any effort to make a version of this mod series that is "like the normal version, but more like X game", we're just going to end up with something that is a) barely changed, b) goes against the spirit of what the mod is trying to accomplish in the first place, c) ends up changing the game that is supposed to be the "source of truth" anyway, or d) all three of the above.
That said, I went through the spreadsheet I used for the development of the mod, and for KH1 specifically, these would be the changes that would be made for a more KH3-centric version:
And again, in the interest of consistency, there would still be pieces of KH3 that would get changed, not because of clashes with other games, but just within itself - there's all kinds of weirdness surrounding the use of the text "Auto-Shot" and its Reprisals are all over the place. Every time I've tried to figure out what this mod series would look like if I were to make one of the games untouchable, I've always run into something that is either undesirable or outright irreconcilable.
I do understand the desire to tinker with this concept and pull it in different directions, and I do very much appreciate the interest in my little mod series, but... I remain unconvinced that it would result in something desirable, and even if it did, I don't think it would be worth the effort.
I understand completely, of course, and am happy to see you stick to your decisions.
I am uncertain, however, if many other variants would actually get requested. KH2 is a bit of an anomaly translation-wise, isn't it? I don't think anybody would ask for a KH2-centric version where Sonic Blade/Ars Arcanum/Ragnarok kept their KH2 names, which also applies to things like "Lucky Strike" and "Treasure Magnet" (even if "Draw" is the literal translation). I just can't see anybody wanting those names in any other game. If anything, all of that would be taken care of with a KH3-centric mod as well. KH1 would also likely not get requested since it was the first game and naming conventions hadn't been established (not that they were with KH2 either). It's like they tried a different direction in KH2 for many things, but then just reversed course for later games (probably because it was done by different teams). So I think it's quite unlikely that KH1 or KH2 would ever get requested as the basis for this type of mod, but I could be proven wrong, of course. Even if they are, a quick explanation of the aforementioned facts would probably change the requester's mind. That only leaves KH3 as a mainline game, with some other names pulled from games between it and KH2.
Regarding KH3, you could definitely make some changes there as well, even for a mod based on that game. "EXP Zero" is perfectly fine, of course, for consistency. "Hurricane Winder" is fine as "Hurricane Blast". "Prize Plus" is fine as "Jackpot" or maybe "Gummi Jackpot", while "Prize Proliferator" could just be normal "Jackpot" (even though it's better).
"Damage Drive" is an interesting one in KH2. I think your choice of "Drive Syphon" works well or maybe "Damage Syphon-D" or something, which would perhaps be a new type of name for an ability. "Damage Drive Syphon" doesn't sound too good either. Perhaps something like "Damage Conversion", "Damage Energizer" or "Damage Invigoration". It retains the "Damage" part instead of the "Syphon", then.
Again, thank you for commenting as thoroughly as you did.
The difference in design philosophy between the Tokyo and Osaka teams may have caused some of the inconsistencies through the series, but it is at best a very minor factor - I know this because most of these inconsistencies don't exist in the original Japanese. A much bigger reason is that the English localization teams changed. There was one for KH1, another for CoM and KH2, then a different one starting with Days (and they might still be the same one up to now, I don't quite remember...).
The main problem with designating KH1 and KH2 as the be-all-end-all "this game is GOSPEL" for the sake of consistency is that they are not consistent. Not with each other, not with what came later (or between), and sometimes not even within themselves. The English localizers made a lot of decisions that seemed entirely reasonable and innocent at the time, but ended up clashing and being incompatible with things that later games did. KH1 and 2's localizations would be very, very different if the original teams knew what we know now. And then there are things that I would argue were just straight-up mistakes. They might be the most iconic and popular games in the series (for good reason), but they are not infallible, especially when viewed as examples of Japanese to English localization for a new weird JRPG-plaformer hybrid concept in the early-to-mid 2000's. And once you actually sit down and start going through the weeds, it is always more complicated than you thought.
Also, please consider that some choices were made due to the feasibility of being able to actually pull it off in the mod. Changing around text in KH2 is quite easy precisely because it is popular and has had an extensive amount of community-made tools created for the purpose of modding it. BBS is also fairly straightforward (but not quite as much), CoM and DDD are nightmares to work with, KH1 is about half-and-half, and the UE4 games are so unbelievably effortless to change that all of the actual coding work for KH3 took about a half hour.
The purpose of the mod series isn't to create something that is cozy for KH1+2 stans (not that I don't get where they're coming from, I'm not too far off from being one myself, it's just not the goal here). It is so that the throughline running between these games is even just a little bit stronger, where the same thing has the same name every time, without regard to things like Tokyo -> Osaka design philosophy. That may not line up exactly perfectly with what the developers or official localization team were thinking at the time, but... that's why this is a mod. It is, above all, a product of hindsight, something the original teams did not and could not have.