Warning! Do not run multiple navmesh mods in the same location/cells! If two mods/plugins affect the same cell there is a good chance it will cause significant problems! Total pathing failure or CTDs if you are very unlucky! FAQ: Will you be doing all the settlements? and if so can you do the XYZ settlement next plz?
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Yes, I will be doing all of them. Your vote for next settlement will be noted, and I will take that in consideration for whatever the next navmesh update is.
The navmeshed versions of your settlements mods are separate from the deep-cleaned version right?
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They are separate, indeed. I am keeping navmeshed versions available as standalone versions. Deep Clean Settlement mod/ Collection allows for individual installation via DL or selection from the fomod installer. So you can chose if you do or do not want to use a DC settlement mod.
Are you including these navmesh updates in your Deep Clean version?
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All the navmesh updates are getting added to the DCnR features as well. Which is convenient for both playstyles (the messy vanilla original with better navmeshing or the deep cleaned-up and better navmeshing).
Is this navmesh update mod compatible with SS2, SS1 or ?
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SS1 & SS2? Absolutely Yes. These navmesh fixes were requested by an SS2 team member named Yasigan who runs the SS2 city competitions as to compete they can only use vanilla settlements.
My Deep Clean settlements are also SS2 compatible, and get these updated navmeshes.
For all other mods, mostly yes. If a mod updates terrain significantly, or changes navmesh for the settlements than no, otherwise the answer is yes.
At this time I only know of one other modder who even does just navmesh updates, and they have 2. The might be a handful of other modders that have re-navmeshing in their settlement mods, but I doubt it would be more than a 2-3. RealJenn (who made the tutorial video I learned from to do these) has the Simple Clean series for example that updated navmesh, but modifies the terrain and structures in the settlements so much it would not be compatible with these updated navmesh mods (meant for vanilla settlements) or my Deep Clean series, which modifies the terrain only a little bit. So what problems did you fix? I'm interested but I am not sure what issues are there.
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Stolen from Glitchfinder's JP Navmesh Update: Ever found yourself building at most settlements, only to realize the settlers weren't the sharpest tools in the shed? Trying to walk through benches, running around the settlement rather than through it, and generally just not really understanding where they could walk? Turns out most settlements need some real work.
The main issues are precuts, areas missing navmesh, navmesh below terrain and navmesh poorly shaped.
Precuts: objects that can be scrapped or moved get a special navmesh under them to prevent NPCs from moving thru them, this is called "pre-cut". When you scrap or move those objects the navmesh under them opens up for NPCs. Most precuts in the game were autogenerated and have poor shapes creating delays to NPCs navigating the space. Also most exterior pre-cuts where much larger than the objects they were under to the point where large sections of settlements would be un-navigable by NPCs, until those trees, cars, etc were scrapped. Lastly, a lot of objects that are scrapable did not get precuts at all.
Areas missing Navmesh: A large variety of objects/sections are missing or deliberately did not get navmeshed, these include: Large rocks/Cliffs, small/low rocks, hill edges, ramping terrain, fallen logs, junk or trash piles that are low to the ground, so on. When remeshing these I do not do objects with more than an apparent 30 degree ramp up, or large protruding objects BUT honestly there is no reason that low flat logs parallel to the ground should not be navigable. Also many of the high to low sections like cliffs and hill edges can get something called an Edge Portals, which I call jump-downs (as that is what the NPCs do when they use them), so I mesh those cliff/hill edges so the NPCs will actually use them. Many of the hill edges were setup that only flyers would use them, as far as I know flyers will use those Edge Portals to go up.
Navmesh below terrain: A large part of the navmesh in most exterior cells is below the terrain itself. Sometimes it is not very much and the pathing AI can handle it, other times its a massive difference and the AI fails badly. Rocky cliff areas have the worst of this I have seen so far with mesh several feet below the surface, but if you look at a before image (I try to post a before and after for each of these), you will notice massive sections of road and ground that are below the red triangles that make up the navmesh.
Navmesh poorly shaped: So the autogenerated navmesh (especially the precuts) make weird elongated shapes that the NPCs will hesitate or act drunk or spin around using. While the transition sections thru doorways and changes in elevation can have narrow triangles (I do this myself) these are sections that the mesh must use the narrow triangles. Autogen mesh with create primary paths where it is not uncommon to have an elongated triangle 1/3rd the length of a cell (roughly 100 feet) and less than a foot wide, that is a triangle with dimensions 100 x 100 x 1... and it is normal to have several triangles like this stacked!
Disclaimer about roof pathing and relaxation zones:
The roof is still pathed in this update. So if you have ladders/stairs going up there, from time to time NPCs will route there.
With most of the roof having jump down pathing mechanics added back in the NPCs will actually get off the roof when it comes time to work, sleep, or recreation time (from 7-9am and from 9pm to 1am).
Warning! This settlement uses manual relax/recreations zones in vanilla, this limits where the default NPCs (the original 7) will relax/hang out at when not working or sleeping. They are specifically inside the bldg around the in-table, and around all 4 of the patio tables.
Bonus recruited settlers ignore those and relax anywhere in the build zone.
I used your Slog Deep clean, I was unaware it had within it, this navmesh "fix". It's given pathing of my settlers too much freedom (in a bad way) and they keep getting stuck in areas not vanilla navmesh. Is there a way to return the navmesh to vanilla settlement radius? Here is an example of my problems. All my settlers seem to have a hard-on to go a certain direction away from the settlement as if wanting to leave (see pic) I have leave settlement unhappiness off. I built this same settlement on xbox and I did not have this problem. I also catch settlers wondering around the rocky ledge in front of the pool and walking on the road by ironworks.
Ooooooooooo you're KILLIN IT. Nice job, totally gonna wait for a full pack of all of them at once personally, but dam I salute u! Amazing work! THANK YOU! FINALLY someone decided to really fix some navmeshes. Still downloading to endorse, this is awesome!
What are these yellow/light green triangles between the edge portals? Are those just edge protals with different colors or do they have another purpose?
So the problem with vanilla mesh is they either use all edge portals aka jump downs OR all float/flyer mesh (bright yellow).
In reality you want your flyers, including Mr Handies, to be able to go upward over rough or even somewhat steep ground but the navmesh types will not let you do both in the same place. I thought edge portals would be smart enough to be bi-directional for flyers but they do not in fact work that way.
With 90% of settlements all the mesh is edge portals, or none in the case of many roof meshes.
With 90% of non-settlement mesh, there are very few edge portals and all flyer/float mesh.
I try to balance between the two. There are a few sections in vanilla that do this, the low cliffs around the creek to the N of Sanctuary was actually well meshed for a mix of the two, it just had other issues...
In the case of The Slog, the roof was missing edge portals, and the various other ledges/pool edges around the settlement had either all float or all edge portals. Interior was not too horrible for vanilla. The purplish/pink precuts were as usual oversized, so I trim those down.
Other thing that is a big problem for settlements like The Slog is the mesh trying to let NPCs go around ledges, they allow the pathing to be too open, so you end up with NPCs walking nowhere against the edge of a sidewalk/ledge. I try to tighten the corners so you wont see that so much.
Thank you for the detailed information, that's very useful for me. Just one last question: How does one create these float/flyer meshes? I don't see any hotkey for that in the navmesh hotkeys.
17 comments
FAQ:
Will you be doing all the settlements? and if so can you do the XYZ settlement next plz?
Yes, I will be doing all of them. Your vote for next settlement will be noted, and I will take that in consideration for whatever the next navmesh update is.
The navmeshed versions of your settlements mods are separate from the deep-cleaned version right?
They are separate, indeed. I am keeping navmeshed versions available as standalone versions. Deep Clean Settlement mod/ Collection allows for individual installation via DL or selection from the fomod installer. So you can chose if you do or do not want to use a DC settlement mod.
Are you including these navmesh updates in your Deep Clean version?
All the navmesh updates are getting added to the DCnR features as well. Which is convenient for both playstyles (the messy vanilla original with better navmeshing or the deep cleaned-up and better navmeshing).
Is this navmesh update mod compatible with SS2, SS1 or ?
SS1 & SS2? Absolutely Yes. These navmesh fixes were requested by an SS2 team member named Yasigan who runs the SS2 city competitions as to compete they can only use vanilla settlements.
My Deep Clean settlements are also SS2 compatible, and get these updated navmeshes.
For all other mods, mostly yes. If a mod updates terrain significantly, or changes navmesh for the settlements than no, otherwise the answer is yes.
At this time I only know of one other modder who even does just navmesh updates, and they have 2. The might be a handful of other modders that have re-navmeshing in their settlement mods, but I doubt it would be more than a 2-3. RealJenn (who made the tutorial video I learned from to do these) has the Simple Clean series for example that updated navmesh, but modifies the terrain and structures in the settlements so much it would not be compatible with these updated navmesh mods (meant for vanilla settlements) or my Deep Clean series, which modifies the terrain only a little bit.
So what problems did you fix? I'm interested but I am not sure what issues are there.
Ever found yourself building at most settlements, only to realize the settlers weren't the sharpest tools in the shed? Trying to walk through benches, running around the settlement rather than through it, and generally just not really understanding where they could walk? Turns out most settlements need some real work.
The main issues are precuts, areas missing navmesh, navmesh below terrain and navmesh poorly shaped.
Precuts: objects that can be scrapped or moved get a special navmesh under them to prevent NPCs from moving thru them, this is called "pre-cut". When you scrap or move those objects the navmesh under them opens up for NPCs. Most precuts in the game were autogenerated and have poor shapes creating delays to NPCs navigating the space. Also most exterior pre-cuts where much larger than the objects they were under to the point where large sections of settlements would be un-navigable by NPCs, until those trees, cars, etc were scrapped. Lastly, a lot of objects that are scrapable did not get precuts at all.
Areas missing Navmesh: A large variety of objects/sections are missing or deliberately did not get navmeshed, these include: Large rocks/Cliffs, small/low rocks, hill edges, ramping terrain, fallen logs, junk or trash piles that are low to the ground, so on. When remeshing these I do not do objects with more than an apparent 30 degree ramp up, or large protruding objects BUT honestly there is no reason that low flat logs parallel to the ground should not be navigable. Also many of the high to low sections like cliffs and hill edges can get something called an Edge Portals, which I call jump-downs (as that is what the NPCs do when they use them), so I mesh those cliff/hill edges so the NPCs will actually use them. Many of the hill edges were setup that only flyers would use them, as far as I know flyers will use those Edge Portals to go up.
Navmesh below terrain: A large part of the navmesh in most exterior cells is below the terrain itself. Sometimes it is not very much and the pathing AI can handle it, other times its a massive difference and the AI fails badly. Rocky cliff areas have the worst of this I have seen so far with mesh several feet below the surface, but if you look at a before image (I try to post a before and after for each of these), you will notice massive sections of road and ground that are below the red triangles that make up the navmesh.
Navmesh poorly shaped: So the autogenerated navmesh (especially the precuts) make weird elongated shapes that the NPCs will hesitate or act drunk or spin around using. While the transition sections thru doorways and changes in elevation can have narrow triangles (I do this myself) these are sections that the mesh must use the narrow triangles. Autogen mesh with create primary paths where it is not uncommon to have an elongated triangle 1/3rd the length of a cell (roughly 100 feet) and less than a foot wide, that is a triangle with dimensions 100 x 100 x 1... and it is normal to have several triangles like this stacked!
The roof is still pathed in this update. So if you have ladders/stairs going up there, from time to time NPCs will route there.
With most of the roof having jump down pathing mechanics added back in the NPCs will actually get off the roof when it comes time to work, sleep, or recreation time (from 7-9am and from 9pm to 1am).
Warning! This settlement uses manual relax/recreations zones in vanilla, this limits where the default NPCs (the original 7) will relax/hang out at when not working or sleeping. They are specifically inside the bldg around the in-table, and around all 4 of the patio tables.
Bonus recruited settlers ignore those and relax anywhere in the build zone.
It happens in my game as well. But I don't have this mod, but the mod from Aurelianis is installed.
Would you recommend a new save for this navmesh update, or is an existing save fine?
I would like to vote for a Hangman's Alley mesh if possible. Love the settlement location and density, but settlers tend to not walk around correctly.
In reality you want your flyers, including Mr Handies, to be able to go upward over rough or even somewhat steep ground but the navmesh types will not let you do both in the same place. I thought edge portals would be smart enough to be bi-directional for flyers but they do not in fact work that way.
With 90% of settlements all the mesh is edge portals, or none in the case of many roof meshes.
With 90% of non-settlement mesh, there are very few edge portals and all flyer/float mesh.
I try to balance between the two. There are a few sections in vanilla that do this, the low cliffs around the creek to the N of Sanctuary was actually well meshed for a mix of the two, it just had other issues...
In the case of The Slog, the roof was missing edge portals, and the various other ledges/pool edges around the settlement had either all float or all edge portals. Interior was not too horrible for vanilla. The purplish/pink precuts were as usual oversized, so I trim those down.
Other thing that is a big problem for settlements like The Slog is the mesh trying to let NPCs go around ledges, they allow the pathing to be too open, so you end up with NPCs walking nowhere against the edge of a sidewalk/ledge. I try to tighten the corners so you wont see that so much.
Look here for a visual cheat sheet https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/articles/4209
Love your work, keep it up.
Keep the up the amazing work :)
Will endorse as soon as I can
Got about 1/3rd of the way thru, roughly 20 or so left.