Is there any reason I should not be using the HD Billboards for every LOD level (4, 8 and 16)? Midnight Ride also says to only "Enable all options with an asterisk appended".
Billboards are lower quality vs 3d lod and in this game do not really come with a performance difference. The asterisked options are preferred for best visuals. You can certainly test and see for yourself. The main reason to not use billboards is if you have texture mods that significantly change the tree's appearance.
I'm having a little bit of trouble with these LODs. I'm using completely vanilla trees. When installing this mod, I'm selecting No to using TexGen, but yes to installing HD Billboards. When selecting the HD billboards, I'm enabling all of them that have an asterisk next to the name in the installer, which if I'm understanding correctly is the recommended choice.
I'm doing this as part of following your LOD Generation guide. All the other mods in that guide are working fine, but this one is giving me some unsatisfying results (see below for normal and zoomed in shots from the same viewpoint);
It seems like maybe there's too much detail/thickness in the billboards? So at a distance it doesn't resolve individual lines and instead just looks like a solid plane. On getting close to these to where the full model loads, there's a visible "pop" as the full detail model has far fewer branches.
Should I not install the HD billboards if I'm using plain vanilla trees?
OK, FYI for anyone else having this issue, I've managed to mostly resolve it. The trick is to select Customize Materials at the first step of the installer. This will let you select different weights for the LODs for the most common tree models. It defaults to the thickest, so I changed to the thinnest and regenerated the Object LOD.
This has pretty much entirely resolved the issue at a distance, fine details are now visible instead of the blobs of solid colour the trees were before. I still get the pop-in to a lesser degree at a closer distance, as the HD billboards at LOD4 still have way more branches than the full detail vanilla model. It's not too bad though, unless the author has any suggestions for some other setting I should be using. Maybe electing not to install the LOD4 HD billboards, so the transition from HD to Vanilla assets happens further from the player?
I am not using any tree mods. If I choose to install HD billboards when installing this mod, it proceeds to ask me whether HD billboards should be used for each of several tree types in LOD4/LOD8/LOD16.
How should I configure this? Surely the default options aren't optimal, as the checkmarks are all over the place and don't even match the asterisks.
Edit: Yeah, I foolishly enabled all LOD levels for all tree types, and it went hilariously wrong around Tenpines Bluff, with weird building textures where trees should be?
Edit 2: Wasted a bunch of time regenerating with settings from https://stepmodifications.org/wiki/Fallout4:Optimized_Vanilla_Tree_LODs and I'm still getting trees that look like buildings at extreme range, while midrange is now trees that look like they're made of twisted metal/wood or something:
Guess I'll try just skipping this mod, as it's clearly not working out for me.
Vanilla vs LODGEN. Followed the guide to the letter more times than I can count. Only using the asterisked billboards in the installer. Zero other mods were installed during generation, and no mods other mods were present in-game when these screenshots were taken. Is this the intended look for these trees post generation? (only concerned about the trees, everything else is fine)
No. They should be slightly thicker than vanilla, as shown in my screenshots using the latest version. Most likely cause would be forgetting to tick "Use source alpha threshold" setting in xLODGen. There are a few other possible causes as well.
During installation of Optimized Vanilla Tree LODs fomod installer, there is the option to pick different Materials, setting the threshold for the Maple trees. Reinstall and ensure to use the 80 option for the Maple trees.
I presume you regenerated before taking the image? If so, it is possible that the tree texture you have for the maple trees would benefit from a lower threshold. In this case, download the optional "Maple Threshold 60" file I just uploaded. Install and regenerate.
Yes, I'm regenerating each time. Here's 60 threshold. Its definitely a step in the right direction. Not sure what those lines on the right are. I should also clarify that I'm generating with zero additional mods, other than what is listed in the FOLIP guide. Nothing else is installed - definitely no modded tree textures. Just vanilla.
If using vanilla non-HRDLC tree texture, that is likely the reason then. You may prefer to use the pregenerated TexGen version of the texture included in the fomod, as it is based off the HRDLC textures, so will have slightly better detail.
The lines you mention are caused by bleeding of the mipmaps against other textures on the atlas. There really is little that can be done to prevent that.
It is possible you have a mipmap bias that is negatively impacting this as well, either caused by driver settings or ini settings.
What resolution is your generated textures\LOD\Trees\MapleBranchesLOD_d.dds?
I have generated with and without HD DLC previously, and didn't notice a difference. Granted, *that* specific HD DLC was edited by myself with slightly reduced sizes for normal and specular. I'm currently on Vega 64 @ 1080p, and there is no way to adjust mip bias in AMD's drivers. I'm also using a heavily tweaked BethINI High preset for inis. Texgen stuff is 256. I noticed in the MO2 file conflicts that the texture from HD LOD Textures looks much, much better (its 512, though). In fact, the Texgen MapleBranchesLOD_d.dds doesn't look very good at all... EDIT: Reinstalled the game for good measure, with fresh inis.
Since you have "heavily tweaked" ini files, pastebin them and I can check. Also ensure Anisotropic Filtering is maxed on driver.
Comparison of textures in photo editors is unreliable for discerning optimal textures in lod. HD LOD Textures version is overly thick, even with 128 threshold.
Archiving the output in a texture ba2 may produce different results versus loose files in some cases due to the mipmap streaming optimization for texture archives. Be careful not to alter the textures if using CAO.
This is with the pre-generated LOD from FOLIP. Looks near identical to the first comment.
That was taken with the fresh vanilla inis. All I did was set them to Ultra in the launcher and enable modding. So the BethINI ones arent to blame. AF is also set to 16x in the launcher. Applying AF via Radeon Software is only intended for DX9 titles and can get funky if you do so for games on newer API's. (I tried it anyway, there was no positive change) I've also tested BA2 vs loose, and there was no difference. All these images were loose to save time. CAO hasn't given me any trouble either. EDIT: If it comes down to it, i'm more than happy to just stick with the 60 threshold. It's close enough to vanilla that it wont bother me, and its well worth just *dealing* with it to have the other benefits. I'm truly baffled at this point.
So you're probably not doing anything wrong, just surprisingly different results versus my own. I would suggest, if you care to consider testing more, that rather than lower maple threshold, test setting default alpha threshold to a lower value of maybe 100 and see if that improves upon it.
I actually have tried that already, because I remember having to lower alpha threshold in the past - back when ticking "use source alpha threshold" was not a part of the FOLIP guide (for older FOLIP versions). I will definitely try lowering it further though. But in the event it doesn't work out, i'll just use the 60 threshold optional file. I wish I had an Nvidia GPU to test, just for my own sanity.
Regardless, thank you so much for your time and patience.
Thinking about this more, I think that this is actually caused by different settings for Anisotropic Filtering. Anisotropic Filtering improves distant details like this. I set mine to the highest quality in my graphics driver, since it costs next to nothing performance wise.
I 100% have it set to 16x in game, and also tried doing so via driver for one of those screenshots. I'm pretty sure those driver settings only apply to DX9 games on AMD (most of the time).
It's funny that you brought this up again, because I'm also using your Enhanced Vanilla Plants mod now too, and I swear those don't look right either, at least to my eye. I'm convinced its just some extremely weird edge case inconsistency from an old, not so widely used GPU.
Forgive my ignorance here if I've simply misunderstood the install instructions.
Having used this mod without installing the HD billboards (as I'm using Another Pine Forest, the MOFAM edit of this and then the 2k performance textures as well as Pine Trees Redone etc), I noticed that mapletreeblasted06 generated without any textures. I did some digging and found the .nif added by this mod and I dragged both mapletreeblasted03 (which was fine) and mapletreeblasted06 into NifSkope and noticed that the latter had no texture files associated with the nif. Upon rectifying this in NifSkope, it looked as it should - just copying the entries for MapleAtlas02_x.dds into the relevant lines.
I've not re-generated LOD after having fixed this as I figure, given that I'm unsure whether this is an error on my end or the mod's (and I'd assume more than likely it's a user error), so I can't report as to whether this rectified the LODs in-game - as they remained purple after doing this, of course.
Let me know if I've missed something here - otherwise, hope that's helpful.
The BSShaderTextureSet is ignored when a material is specified in the BSLightingShaderProperty's Name field, which points to Materials\lod\Landscape\Trees\BarkAtlas.BGSM, which in turn points to Textures\lod\Landscape\Trees\BarkAtlas_d.dds. This texture will be generated by TexGen as long as Optimized Vanilla Tree LODs.esp is present in the load order and the loose TexGen rules are loaded. You should not modify the included nif files.
Perhaps I just missed it in TexGen generation then. The alterations to the nifs weren't permanent - just to try and diagnose what was potentially missing.
I appreciate you clarifying the structure of files involved - thanks again!
Man, I really want to use all these great LOD mods, such as this and your LOD improvement mod, but I have tried 8 million times to regenerate my own LOD, followed so many different guides, and it always looks like garbage. I just end up going back to the Better LOD mod which is already pre-generated. Unfortunately, there have been so many advances since that mod came out but yeah, I've given up.
I also tried a lot of different options, and it didn't come out very well either. Now I do so: I put Better LOD, create an Object LOD according to the guide Far Object LOD Improvement Project, Terrain is not touching. And in the output I get a landscape from Better and deleted objects from DoubleYouC.
Give Feedback
56 comments
I'm doing this as part of following your LOD Generation guide. All the other mods in that guide are working fine, but this one is giving me some unsatisfying results (see below for normal and zoomed in shots from the same viewpoint);
It seems like maybe there's too much detail/thickness in the billboards? So at a distance it doesn't resolve individual lines and instead just looks like a solid plane. On getting close to these to where the full model loads, there's a visible "pop" as the full detail model has far fewer branches.
Should I not install the HD billboards if I'm using plain vanilla trees?
This has pretty much entirely resolved the issue at a distance, fine details are now visible instead of the blobs of solid colour the trees were before. I still get the pop-in to a lesser degree at a closer distance, as the HD billboards at LOD4 still have way more branches than the full detail vanilla model. It's not too bad though, unless the author has any suggestions for some other setting I should be using. Maybe electing not to install the LOD4 HD billboards, so the transition from HD to Vanilla assets happens further from the player?
How should I configure this? Surely the default options aren't optimal, as the checkmarks are all over the place and don't even match the asterisks.
Edit: Yeah, I foolishly enabled all LOD levels for all tree types, and it went hilariously wrong around Tenpines Bluff, with weird building textures where trees should be?
Edit 2: Wasted a bunch of time regenerating with settings from https://stepmodifications.org/wiki/Fallout4:Optimized_Vanilla_Tree_LODs and I'm still getting trees that look like buildings at extreme range, while midrange is now trees that look like they're made of twisted metal/wood or something:
Guess I'll try just skipping this mod, as it's clearly not working out for me.
Vanilla vs LODGEN. Followed the guide to the letter more times than I can count. Only using the asterisked billboards in the installer. Zero other mods were installed during generation, and no mods other mods were present in-game when these screenshots were taken.
Is this the intended look for these trees post generation?
(only concerned about the trees, everything else is fine)
I am *definitely* using source alpha threshold.
I'd be interested in hearing what the other possible causes could be. I've tried everything I know.
(Not using Synthesis)
I should also clarify that I'm generating with zero additional mods, other than what is listed in the FOLIP guide. Nothing else is installed - definitely no modded tree textures. Just vanilla.
The lines you mention are caused by bleeding of the mipmaps against other textures on the atlas. There really is little that can be done to prevent that.
It is possible you have a mipmap bias that is negatively impacting this as well, either caused by driver settings or ini settings.
What resolution is your generated textures\LOD\Trees\MapleBranchesLOD_d.dds?
I'm currently on Vega 64 @ 1080p, and there is no way to adjust mip bias in AMD's drivers. I'm also using a heavily tweaked BethINI High preset for inis.
Texgen stuff is 256. I noticed in the MO2 file conflicts that the texture from HD LOD Textures looks much, much better (its 512, though).
In fact, the Texgen MapleBranchesLOD_d.dds doesn't look very good at all...
EDIT: Reinstalled the game for good measure, with fresh inis.
Comparison of textures in photo editors is unreliable for discerning optimal textures in lod. HD LOD Textures version is overly thick, even with 128 threshold.
Archiving the output in a texture ba2 may produce different results versus loose files in some cases due to the mipmap streaming optimization for texture archives. Be careful not to alter the textures if using CAO.
AF is also set to 16x in the launcher. Applying AF via Radeon Software is only intended for DX9 titles and can get funky if you do so for games on newer API's. (I tried it anyway, there was no positive change)
I've also tested BA2 vs loose, and there was no difference. All these images were loose to save time. CAO hasn't given me any trouble either.
EDIT: If it comes down to it, i'm more than happy to just stick with the 60 threshold. It's close enough to vanilla that it wont bother me, and its well worth just *dealing* with it to have the other benefits. I'm truly baffled at this point.
Regardless, thank you so much for your time and patience.
It's funny that you brought this up again, because I'm also using your Enhanced Vanilla Plants mod now too, and I swear those don't look right either, at least to my eye. I'm convinced its just some extremely weird edge case inconsistency from an old, not so widely used GPU.
Vanilla - https://i.gyazo.com/0b0a14c7f95ef4f0ddd2ec6d65e9f86f.png
EVP - https://i.gyazo.com/1e0978e96487e64f9054c51a6ccb85a9.png
I override my AF on my Nvidia card drivers, but that doesn't help you.
Forgive my ignorance here if I've simply misunderstood the install instructions.
Having used this mod without installing the HD billboards (as I'm using Another Pine Forest, the MOFAM edit of this and then the 2k performance textures as well as Pine Trees Redone etc), I noticed that mapletreeblasted06 generated without any textures. I did some digging and found the .nif added by this mod and I dragged both mapletreeblasted03 (which was fine) and mapletreeblasted06 into NifSkope and noticed that the latter had no texture files associated with the nif. Upon rectifying this in NifSkope, it looked as it should - just copying the entries for MapleAtlas02_x.dds into the relevant lines.
I've not re-generated LOD after having fixed this as I figure, given that I'm unsure whether this is an error on my end or the mod's (and I'd assume more than likely it's a user error), so I can't report as to whether this rectified the LODs in-game - as they remained purple after doing this, of course.
Let me know if I've missed something here - otherwise, hope that's helpful.
Thanks for the wonderful mods as well :)
The alterations to the nifs weren't permanent - just to try and diagnose what was potentially missing.
I appreciate you clarifying the structure of files involved - thanks again!