Hey Carimya, I didn't realize you made this mod! :D I love this mod, I noticed the devs moved/ removed the .json files you edited to make this :( Seems they put everything into "BUNDLE" files which I honestly never even heard of XD
Yeah it's a little annoying but I guess they have their reasons (better performance due to faster reading I guess?).
I'll experiment around to see if they made it possible to actually edit these values via a mod folder.
Though I have to say it seems they kinda nerfed the leather armor anyway so it can be penetrated with a dedicated thrust. So my priority will be my PaceAI mod for now.
I'm hoping to at least be able to turn off the dodges. They're really annoying the hell out of me. :D
If you're saying that armor made of UNTREATED leather is bad, that's DEFINITELY true; but HISTORICAL leather armor was made of either RAWHIDE, or BOILED leather, BOTH of which are leather that's been made so tough, that armor made out of it can stop even BLADE CUTS and PIKE stabs. I imagine that the Blade and Sorcery developers realized this, and so modeled the leather armor in the game off HISTORICAL leather armor, which's WHY it can stop cuts and stabs. I get what you're trying to do with this mod, and I COMMEND the effort, but in the case of leather armor, you actually did the exact OPPOSITE of what you set out to do. Just pointing that out
But if it is rawhide it is not leather armor. Also rawhide looks way different that.
We are specifically talking about leather armor here.
Boiled leather might be able so help a bit against blade cuts (which is why I made it stop draw cuts) but it sure as hell doesn't stop pike thrusts. Not even maille can stop a pike thrust.
Also the leather armor in this game is modeled after a coat of plates, which is actually plates held together by leather. (So yeah that one should stop it all, but the rest of the leather in this game shouldn't).
Also there is little evidence for actual leather armor. It seemed to be rather rare (depends of time and place of course).
And if you look at cutting tests you might see why it wasn't too common. It just isn't as good as multiple layers of linnen (like a gambeson) while being way more expensive.
So as much as I am informed, leather, even boiled leather won't be as helpful as it is in this game by default. And rawhide would look completely different, so it's definately not a rawhide armor.
Of COURSE Mail's not gonna stop pike stabs; stabbing attacks slip in between the gaps and force the rings apart, so that's not a good analogy, as leather armor doesn't have said gaps and rings, and so it'd be far easier for it to stop stabs.
And finally, not only is the leather used to make armor thicker than that used to make normal clothes, but the treating process also STIFFENS it so that it doesn't give in to any attack, but rather disperses it to the best of its ability, and that INCLUDES stabs.
I'm NOT saying leather armor's PERFECT (because NO armor's perfect, not even modern Kevlar armor), the ONLY thing I'm saying is that REAL, HISTORICAL leather armor's much better than you're giving it credit for.
I see what you mean, but even though treated leather is extremely stiff (almost comparable to metal), it doesn't mean that a thrust, especially by dedicated thrusting weapons like a spear, will just glance off... If the angle is bad, yes. But a sharp tip will bury in enough to not to slide off and keep concentrating the force on the point.
I was trying to do some research on boiled leather and found no really credible source, just discussions without any points to first hand sources (just sources referring to sources, referring to sources, referring to sources and basically making the sources untrackable)
So I watched a video by Todd's Workshop (see bottom of this post).
So according to his experiment you're right that boiled leather is really damn hard and with enough layers it is able to stop arrows/bolts and a rondell dagger. A shame he didn't test it with a spear, because it's a whole other level... Though I can imagine that a breast plate made of boiled leather (and with breastplate I mean a PROPERLY SHAPED breastplate - like the metal breastplates and not this coat-of-platesy shaped top or the gladiator armor of this game) would make a spear just slide off due to the fact that breastplates were shaped so that stuff will never have a flat area to concentrate the force on.
So yeah. If the leather armor in B&S was boiled leather, I'd say it would be pretty realistic the way it is by default.
Here is the problem though: If it was made out of boiled leather, it would have to look completely different than the armor that the bandits or gladiators are wearing in B&S.
As I said the bandit armor looks like a coat of plates. You wouldn't get boiled leather to look like this. Not if you actually wanna be able to wear it. Same for the gladiator armor. Apart from looking pretty thin (talking about the female version, since the males don't really wear leather on their upper body except for the weird round patch) shaping it this way would also make it nearly impossible to wear or properly move in it.
So if I was skilled enough I would make a mod that actually adds coat of plates as a material, so it can be treated differently to the rest of the leather in the game and would basically make it an actual coat of plates - with nice sounds that sound like you hit plates, dampened by the leather. But I'm not able to do that, sadly... At least not yet.
As I said before, armor made of boiled leather would have to be shaped the way metal armor is shaped, so you can wear it, move properly in it and to make it deflect instead of stopping right there.
It could either be a plate shape or possibly also something like hardened leather scales or lamellar (lamellar was popolar in the east as far as I know, though I focus on early to high medieval europe, which is why hardened leather was never that much of a big topic for me).
So my conclusion is: The leather armor shown in B&S must be made out of normal leather. Not boiled leather, not rawhide. And normal leather, while not being useless, just won't be able to stop comitted thrusts or cuts (though I noticed that I made it a bit too weak in my current update - I'm gonna make it a bit more resistant in the next update).
I do have some ideas on how I might possibly be able to add a new material and make the bandit armor use that material. If I manage to do that, I will make the bandit armor actually behave like a coat of plates.
Anyway before finishing this post I wanna say thank you for this CONSTRUCTIVE discussion (usually I get insulted quite quickly in discussions like these) and I wish you a nice evening and good health!
This is a great and comprehensive mod. Very much needed. The other leather armor mod is also very good but I like how this addresses nearly all damages.
One thing that IS a bit baffling however is the spike walls. Even using this mod I can't impale anyone on the spike walls in the Arena or other levels with the spike wall piece. For instance, I can take an enemy in leather or cloth mage armor and slam them against the spikes as hard as I can and none of the spikes penetrate they simply just bounce off the spikes.
Can this be fixed so that the spikes actually impale as they should and be included as a part of your mod?
I'm not sure if this is something I can fix, but I'll see if I can.
I haven't even managed to impale their unarmored limbs on the spike walls... Currently they just die, but don't get impaled. I don't think it's directly related to the armor...
But I'll have a look. Maybe I just missed an entry for that.
Love to try this mod as well, but I only use mods that can work with vortex, so +1 on this. Also on the x5 damage when pierced. I agree that it should be multiplied but x5 is quite alot. For others that has some mods that spawn 'boss' it makes it too easy with x5. I suggest 2x~3x is more than enough.
31 comments
Seems they put everything into "BUNDLE" files which I honestly never even heard of XD
Yeah it's a little annoying but I guess they have their reasons (better performance due to faster reading I guess?).
I'll experiment around to see if they made it possible to actually edit these values via a mod folder.
Though I have to say it seems they kinda nerfed the leather armor anyway so it can be penetrated with a dedicated thrust. So my priority will be my PaceAI mod for now.
I'm hoping to at least be able to turn off the dodges. They're really annoying the hell out of me. :D
So an MMP version should not be needed. In fact I'm playing with MMP all the time.
But if it is rawhide it is not leather armor. Also rawhide looks way different that.
We are specifically talking about leather armor here.
Boiled leather might be able so help a bit against blade cuts (which is why I made it stop draw cuts) but it sure as hell doesn't stop pike thrusts.
Not even maille can stop a pike thrust.
Also the leather armor in this game is modeled after a coat of plates, which is actually plates held together by leather. (So yeah that one should stop it all, but the rest of the leather in this game shouldn't).
Also there is little evidence for actual leather armor. It seemed to be rather rare (depends of time and place of course).
And if you look at cutting tests you might see why it wasn't too common. It just isn't as good as multiple layers of linnen (like a gambeson) while being way more expensive.
So as much as I am informed, leather, even boiled leather won't be as helpful as it is in this game by default.
And rawhide would look completely different, so it's definately not a rawhide armor.
And finally, not only is the leather used to make armor thicker than that used to make normal clothes, but the treating process also STIFFENS it so that it doesn't give in to any attack, but rather disperses it to the best of its ability, and that INCLUDES stabs.
I'm NOT saying leather armor's PERFECT (because NO armor's perfect, not even modern Kevlar armor), the ONLY thing I'm saying is that REAL, HISTORICAL leather armor's much better than you're giving it credit for.
But a sharp tip will bury in enough to not to slide off and keep concentrating the force on the point.
I was trying to do some research on boiled leather and found no really credible source, just discussions without any points to first hand sources (just sources referring to sources, referring to sources, referring to sources and basically making the sources untrackable)
So I watched a video by Todd's Workshop (see bottom of this post).
So according to his experiment you're right that boiled leather is really damn hard and with enough layers it is able to stop arrows/bolts and a rondell dagger. A shame he didn't test it with a spear, because it's a whole other level... Though I can imagine that a breast plate made of boiled leather (and with breastplate I mean a PROPERLY SHAPED breastplate - like the metal breastplates and not this coat-of-platesy shaped top or the gladiator armor of this game) would make a spear just slide off due to the fact that breastplates were shaped so that stuff will never have a flat area to concentrate the force on.
So yeah. If the leather armor in B&S was boiled leather, I'd say it would be pretty realistic the way it is by default.
Here is the problem though:
If it was made out of boiled leather, it would have to look completely different than the armor that the bandits or gladiators are wearing in B&S.
As I said the bandit armor looks like a coat of plates. You wouldn't get boiled leather to look like this. Not if you actually wanna be able to wear it.
Same for the gladiator armor. Apart from looking pretty thin (talking about the female version, since the males don't really wear leather on their upper body except for the weird round patch) shaping it this way would also make it nearly impossible to wear or properly move in it.
So if I was skilled enough I would make a mod that actually adds coat of plates as a material, so it can be treated differently to the rest of the leather in the game and would basically make it an actual coat of plates - with nice sounds that sound like you hit plates, dampened by the leather. But I'm not able to do that, sadly... At least not yet.
As I said before, armor made of boiled leather would have to be shaped the way metal armor is shaped, so you can wear it, move properly in it and to make it deflect instead of stopping right there.
It could either be a plate shape or possibly also something like hardened leather scales or lamellar (lamellar was popolar in the east as far as I know, though I focus on early to high medieval europe, which is why hardened leather was never that much of a big topic for me).
So my conclusion is:
The leather armor shown in B&S must be made out of normal leather. Not boiled leather, not rawhide. And normal leather, while not being useless, just won't be able to stop comitted thrusts or cuts (though I noticed that I made it a bit too weak in my current update - I'm gonna make it a bit more resistant in the next update).
I do have some ideas on how I might possibly be able to add a new material and make the bandit armor use that material. If I manage to do that, I will make the bandit armor actually behave like a coat of plates.
Anyway before finishing this post I wanna say thank you for this CONSTRUCTIVE discussion (usually I get insulted quite quickly in discussions like these) and I wish you a nice evening and good health!
Sadly these files won't be loaded from the mod folder :/
I'll have a look though.
This mod replaces the materialdamages files.
only missing vortex to become perfect
Yes, it really annoys me that the changes don't get activated via a streaming assets folder... I'm still trying to find a solution for that.
One thing that IS a bit baffling however is the spike walls. Even using this mod I can't impale anyone on the spike walls in the Arena or other levels with the spike wall piece. For instance, I can take an enemy in leather or cloth mage armor and slam them against the spikes as hard as I can and none of the spikes penetrate they simply just bounce off the spikes.
Can this be fixed so that the spikes actually impale as they should and be included as a part of your mod?
I haven't even managed to impale their unarmored limbs on the spike walls... Currently they just die, but don't get impaled. I don't think it's directly related to the armor...
But I'll have a look. Maybe I just missed an entry for that.
Also on the x5 damage when pierced. I agree that it should be multiplied but x5 is quite alot. For others that has some mods that spawn 'boss' it makes it too easy with x5. I suggest 2x~3x is more than enough.
Thanks for the great mod.
And yes, I agree that 5x is a little too much.
I'm planning to reduce it to 2.5x.
EDIT: Update is out.
As soon as I find out how I can make this work with vortex I will do it.
I usually also only download mods that support vortex, because let's face it... vortex is the best mod managing system I've ever seen...