Could use an update. - Light mechs were changed at some point to have +3 to hit. With this mod light vehicles are still on +2. - Wheeled APC turret armour was fixed, so you can remove that change, unless you feel your value (50) is a better fit than theirs (30).
Also, I think turrets moving in the last phase is intended, considering the AI doesn't reserve. With this mod you can reserve to 1 then move and kill most turret types and they won't take their turns because they're already spent them. In vanilla you can't do this as successfully (at most you will skip one turret's turn). A better way to buff turrets might be to improve the gunnery skill level of the 'automated' pilot class they use; in theory the four AC/2s on the light sniper turret are scary but they just miss all the time.
"Are mechs kings of the battlefield because tanks are hobbled behind the scenes?"
Yes, yes they are. Because in battletech it's almost criminally easy to mobility-kill vehicles and turn them into static bunkers. HBS BT doesn't model that motive damage so they have to be debuffed in other ways.
Im downloading this now and will be looking it over. Few thoughts based on your description.
** Compared to mechs of the same weight class vehicles go 1 lower in initiative. This makes sense. Think of our real world. At a stop light, when the light turns green there is a delay between you seeing the light, understanding to move, inputting the movement to the pedal and then the delay of the vehicle acceleration. In a Mech, with the sensory systems it has, a big part of the controls in the systems sensing the intent of the mechwarrior. So they react far quicker off the cuff than a vehicle. And just like a person can start running before a (average) vehicle can hit its stop speed is another example. Mechs are just more nimble.
** Medium and Light mechs get +1 and +2 difficulty to hit respectively, vehicles the same weight don't. Actually with this I think it should have gone the other way. Lights and Mediums shouldnt be harder to hit just because they are L/Ms. In the TT only the speed of the target mattered, not its size. Well until you start shooting at Dropships and the like anyway. Yes a Commando is smaller than an Atlas. But a Commando is NOT a small target. In the lore, a commando is 9 Meters tall. Both those mechs walking at the same speed, with the targeting systems youre talking about, are each going to be easy to hit. The difference at that point would be minor. Same applies to tanks. Yes a 30 tons tank is smaller than a 100 ton tank. But they are still big targets. The speed is the only thing that should matter in that regard.
** Vehicles only get 50% evasion pips for moving the same distance. This actually would make sense thematically. Mechs are far more agile and ground cover doesnt effect them the same way it does vehicles. Mechs can step on/over boulders. Over ditches. Arent worried about steep (too a point) inclines just to mention a few examples. Its not shown in details at this scale, because it would be far more busy work, and TT is complicated enough. But think on a smaller scale in the game. As youre watching that tank cruise across terrain, youre not seeing the ditches, boulders, mud pits, etc its avoiding. This makes them move slower overall. And that slower movement prevents them from avoiding enemy fire as easily.
** Vehicles can't get Guarded damage reduction from Brace or Bulwark. Well, here im not sure how to feel. TT mechs couldnt do this either. And thinking of the physics of it, im not sure on any level how bracing reduces the damage of a 120mm round smacking your mech/tank in the chest/front armor. Brace/Bulwark should still be in the game to counter unstable conditions. But the damage reduction side of it can go away as far as im concerned. Bugs the hell out of me that a Mech can flex and take less damage. Take a dude with a bullet proof vest. You put a bullet into the chest vest, doesnt matter how much ole boy braced and flexed his muscles, the damage to the vest (armor metaphor) is going to be the same. On the counter to all that, the damage reduction is a fair use of the game mechanics as presented. But I also find myself playing really unrealistically. At least 3, if not all 4, of my pilots will have Bulwark. Ill run them into range, and then plant and fire until the enemy is destroyed. Makes the most sense with the 50% damage reduction.
Now, get rid of that reduction, alter it somehow, and I could see it being more useful. Have it reduce heat by x points instead. 2x or 3x the pilots guts score. Or give a boost to the next turns to hit score for the braced pilot.
But damage reduction for mechs or vehicles doesnt make sense here. But that said, if mechs have to have it, then vehicles should as well. Id vote for neither though.
** Vehicles have a 25% global nerf to structure and armor. This I didnt know, and it doesnt make sense. Granted itll make vehicles harder to kill. Being that vehicles have less locations (usually 5) compared to a Mech (8 or 11 counting the back), ton for ton, vehicles get more armor points on a single location. This is true to TT as well and makes the armor harder to get through on a vehicle versus a mech. On the other hand, when the structure under the armor is gone, the vehicle is toast. On a mech, it just loses that one location. So yeah, I agree, bad vanilla setting.
** Vehicles have AI settings that make them more suicidal than mechs. This definetly doesnt make any sense. If anything, vehicles should be far more cautious. Especially given the lore. Think of that one mission where you hear someone make the comment "but they have mechs, we cant fi..". So agree here as well, bad vanilla setting.
That's fair. Though I think the initiative might overemphasize it, since mechs are literally more nimble in terms of movement anyway. A bonus of this adjustment is that there is now a difference between heavy and assault vehicles.
* TT doesn't have base-to-hit difficult, should have removed it from mechs, not added it to vics.
Also a reasonable approach. Though I can see the inherent to-hit thing. A commando may not be a SMALL target, but it is smallER. I can see a 5-10% difference for being half the size.
* Brace/Bulwark is weird.
Agreed, I'm honestly not sure what it's supposed to represent. (How can you "Brace" yourself while jogging???) So I just shrugged and figured for game-play reasons tanks should have it too. This mod isn't really about altering the fundamental game rules.
* Regarding Armor nerf
Yeah questionable, though I can see why they might have done it. But for what it's worth taking out the nerf brings the game closer to Tabletop balance. Because it seems like the vehicles were originally set up with canonical armor tonage.
* Vehicles have AI settings that make them more suicidal than mechs.
Yeah, I'm thinking about making a mod that goes further, not just resetting them to baseline. I want to make vehicles MORE cautious. And really not like getting within stomping distance.
A few comments of my own, comparing this game to TT re: initiative> the neurohelmets used by mech pilots arent mind-reading, they're primarily there to help convert the pilots sense of balance to the mechs gyro system. You can pilot a mech without the helmet but its excruciatingly difficult re: Size> agreed. The scaling in the game is way out of whack with lore - a locust is around 8-9 meters tall, an atlas or behemoth is around 13 meters tall, whilst in the game, a griffin or centurion is almost literally double the size of a locust. re: movement pips> as a general rule, vehicles are slightly faster than equivalent weighted mechs due to the engine mechanics, this is countered by adverse reactions to difficult terrain. As such, a vehicle only getting 50% of the pips just doesnt fit with tabletop rules. As a side note to this, the ablative nature of evasion pips runs completely contrary to the TT game, which is frustrating in itself brace/bulwark> I agree that it should affect just stability, or be removed entirely. That behind said... having ablative evasion, higher than normal hit chances and damage reduction from bulwark combine to make a game that feels more exciting to the average player. Mechs get to shoot more and get damaged more, and battles are a rush of intensity, which is somewhat different from the more measured tactical approach in the TT game. Basically different mechanics for different audiences and platforms. As a player of battletech for 30 odd years, its taken me a long while to get used to this, and while I would much prefer a more pure version of the game, I can see why they went in this direction.
I'm on BATTLETECH 1.2 here, so maybe this is because of patch changes, but I noticed a few things/errors:
Something you don't mention in the description: - You've doubled the internal structure of wheeled apc from 5 to 10
And you in CombatGAmeConstants.json have some unnecessary lines that are the same as vanilla so they don't do anything (though perhaps you have other reasons for including them? I don't know modding): "PhaseAssaultVehicle": 5, "PhaseHeavyTurret": 5, "PhaseAssaultTurret": 5 "ToHitVehicleAssault": 0, "ToHitVehicleHeavy": 0, "MeleeDamageMultiplierTurret": 2.0, "MeleeDamageMultiplierVehicle": 2.0,
One thing I would love to see is the option to turn each of the edits you mention on and off in the main JSON file. I know I can change the settings myself, and I actually did, but many people wont, and I can't be 100% sure I made the right edits.
Personally I turned off VehiclesGetGuarded, because I think that's something specifically mech related. Mechs are able to move their body parts to minimize damage when they are "on guard", like moving their arm out of the way of an incoming missile. (Though I personally think that guarded should, by that argument, reduce hit chance to half in stead, but that's another discussion).
Although I know why you did it, because I tested that earlier myself, I think there is a reason why the turrets only go on the last phase. When I tested the same settings you use it made my game unintentionally EASIER rather than harder.
The reason is: I found out that you could simply "wait" the lighter turrets "out" until their phase was done, by reserving actions. As long as there were no other enemies in the area, that was simple and logical to do. After waiting / reserving until the last phase, my mechs could simply walk a few meters until they were in weapons range and had visual contact and blast the turrets to bits.
I would have to disagree based on your premise. If your in range and cover to be able to walk up destroy the turrets after their initiative phase by reserving, then how is that any different from having the turrets operate in phase 5? because you can simply walk up and destroy them before their initiative phase.
Yeah I agree, the difference is VERY situationally and only based on my own experiences.
The thing is that I found myself approaching base related contracts differently, because I knew I could wait the turrets out and if my pilots somehow DIDN'T manage to blow them all up (thnx RNG-Jesus) than nothing bad would happen as long as my mechs in the turrets range were all lights or mediums buffed up one phase so they would have another chance at blowing them up or retreating without return-fire.
Huh interesting. I'd say since they are static turrets that there are always going to be ways to exploit them if you don't have other assets putting pressure on you. My thinking was by making Light turrets move much sooner they would be faster in providing supporting fire when mechs on their team spotted you outsidie the turret sight range. (Light Snipers should get much more annoying)
Motive kills, you mean disabling by destroying a track and such? That is unfortunate. I wish they had sections that could be damaged like mechs. But there's no way I can see to do that with .json edits.
Yep, thats exactly what was meant. Either destroyed or immobilized.
In the TT game vehicles have a lot of nerfs compared to Mechs just to keep Mechs as kings.
Big one that always bothered me, and a perfect example, Vehicles (even Clan) can only use basic single heat sinks. Not double, compact, laser, etc etc. To counter that though I suppose, on Energy weapons require heat sinks.
Another one, any section has all of its structure eliminated (and this is in game) the vehicle is completely destroyed. Some vehicles (hover come to mind) couldnt go through woods.
21 comments
- Light mechs were changed at some point to have +3 to hit. With this mod light vehicles are still on +2.
- Wheeled APC turret armour was fixed, so you can remove that change, unless you feel your value (50) is a better fit than theirs (30).
Also, I think turrets moving in the last phase is intended, considering the AI doesn't reserve. With this mod you can reserve to 1 then move and kill most turret types and they won't take their turns because they're already spent them. In vanilla you can't do this as successfully (at most you will skip one turret's turn). A better way to buff turrets might be to improve the gunnery skill level of the 'automated' pilot class they use; in theory the four AC/2s on the light sniper turret are scary but they just miss all the time.
Yes, yes they are. Because in battletech it's almost criminally easy to mobility-kill vehicles and turn them into static bunkers. HBS BT doesn't model that motive damage so they have to be debuffed in other ways.
Few thoughts based on your description.
** Compared to mechs of the same weight class vehicles go 1 lower in initiative.
This makes sense. Think of our real world. At a stop light, when the light turns green there is a delay between you seeing the light, understanding to move, inputting the movement to the pedal and then the delay of the vehicle acceleration.
In a Mech, with the sensory systems it has, a big part of the controls in the systems sensing the intent of the mechwarrior.
So they react far quicker off the cuff than a vehicle. And just like a person can start running before a (average) vehicle can hit its stop speed is another example.
Mechs are just more nimble.
** Medium and Light mechs get +1 and +2 difficulty to hit respectively, vehicles the same weight don't.
Actually with this I think it should have gone the other way. Lights and Mediums shouldnt be harder to hit just because they are L/Ms.
In the TT only the speed of the target mattered, not its size. Well until you start shooting at Dropships and the like anyway.
Yes a Commando is smaller than an Atlas. But a Commando is NOT a small target. In the lore, a commando is 9 Meters tall.
Both those mechs walking at the same speed, with the targeting systems youre talking about, are each going to be easy to hit.
The difference at that point would be minor.
Same applies to tanks. Yes a 30 tons tank is smaller than a 100 ton tank. But they are still big targets.
The speed is the only thing that should matter in that regard.
** Vehicles only get 50% evasion pips for moving the same distance.
This actually would make sense thematically. Mechs are far more agile and ground cover doesnt effect them the same way it does vehicles.
Mechs can step on/over boulders. Over ditches. Arent worried about steep (too a point) inclines just to mention a few examples.
Its not shown in details at this scale, because it would be far more busy work, and TT is complicated enough.
But think on a smaller scale in the game. As youre watching that tank cruise across terrain, youre not seeing the ditches, boulders, mud pits, etc its avoiding.
This makes them move slower overall. And that slower movement prevents them from avoiding enemy fire as easily.
** Vehicles can't get Guarded damage reduction from Brace or Bulwark.
Well, here im not sure how to feel. TT mechs couldnt do this either. And thinking of the physics of it, im not sure on any level how bracing reduces the damage of a 120mm round smacking your mech/tank in the chest/front armor.
Brace/Bulwark should still be in the game to counter unstable conditions.
But the damage reduction side of it can go away as far as im concerned.
Bugs the hell out of me that a Mech can flex and take less damage.
Take a dude with a bullet proof vest. You put a bullet into the chest vest, doesnt matter how much ole boy braced and flexed his muscles, the damage to the vest (armor metaphor) is going to be the same.
On the counter to all that, the damage reduction is a fair use of the game mechanics as presented.
But I also find myself playing really unrealistically. At least 3, if not all 4, of my pilots will have Bulwark.
Ill run them into range, and then plant and fire until the enemy is destroyed.
Makes the most sense with the 50% damage reduction.
Now, get rid of that reduction, alter it somehow, and I could see it being more useful. Have it reduce heat by x points instead. 2x or 3x the pilots guts score. Or give a boost to the next turns to hit score for the braced pilot.
But damage reduction for mechs or vehicles doesnt make sense here. But that said, if mechs have to have it, then vehicles should as well.
Id vote for neither though.
** Vehicles have a 25% global nerf to structure and armor.
This I didnt know, and it doesnt make sense. Granted itll make vehicles harder to kill.
Being that vehicles have less locations (usually 5) compared to a Mech (8 or 11 counting the back), ton for ton, vehicles get more armor points on a single location. This is true to TT as well and makes the armor harder to get through on a vehicle versus a mech.
On the other hand, when the structure under the armor is gone, the vehicle is toast. On a mech, it just loses that one location.
So yeah, I agree, bad vanilla setting.
** Vehicles have AI settings that make them more suicidal than mechs.
This definetly doesnt make any sense. If anything, vehicles should be far more cautious. Especially given the lore.
Think of that one mission where you hear someone make the comment "but they have mechs, we cant fi..".
So agree here as well, bad vanilla setting.
That's fair. Though I think the initiative might overemphasize it, since mechs are literally more nimble in terms of movement anyway. A bonus of this adjustment is that there is now a difference between heavy and assault vehicles.
* TT doesn't have base-to-hit difficult, should have removed it from mechs, not added it to vics.
Also a reasonable approach. Though I can see the inherent to-hit thing. A commando may not be a SMALL target, but it is smallER. I can see a 5-10% difference for being half the size.
* Brace/Bulwark is weird.
Agreed, I'm honestly not sure what it's supposed to represent. (How can you "Brace" yourself while jogging???) So I just shrugged and figured for game-play reasons tanks should have it too. This mod isn't really about altering the fundamental game rules.
* Regarding Armor nerf
Yeah questionable, though I can see why they might have done it. But for what it's worth taking out the nerf brings the game closer to Tabletop balance. Because it seems like the vehicles were originally set up with canonical armor tonage.
* Vehicles have AI settings that make them more suicidal than mechs.
Yeah, I'm thinking about making a mod that goes further, not just resetting them to baseline. I want to make vehicles MORE cautious. And really not like getting within stomping distance.
re: initiative> the neurohelmets used by mech pilots arent mind-reading, they're primarily there to help convert the pilots sense of balance to the mechs gyro system. You can pilot a mech without the helmet but its excruciatingly difficult
re: Size> agreed. The scaling in the game is way out of whack with lore - a locust is around 8-9 meters tall, an atlas or behemoth is around 13 meters tall, whilst in the game, a griffin or centurion is almost literally double the size of a locust.
re: movement pips> as a general rule, vehicles are slightly faster than equivalent weighted mechs due to the engine mechanics, this is countered by adverse reactions to difficult terrain. As such, a vehicle only getting 50% of the pips just doesnt fit with tabletop rules.
As a side note to this, the ablative nature of evasion pips runs completely contrary to the TT game, which is frustrating in itself
brace/bulwark> I agree that it should affect just stability, or be removed entirely. That behind said... having ablative evasion, higher than normal hit chances and damage reduction from bulwark combine to make a game that feels more exciting to the average player. Mechs get to shoot more and get damaged more, and battles are a rush of intensity, which is somewhat different from the more measured tactical approach in the TT game. Basically different mechanics for different audiences and platforms. As a player of battletech for 30 odd years, its taken me a long while to get used to this, and while I would much prefer a more pure version of the game, I can see why they went in this direction.
Something you don't mention in the description:
- You've doubled the internal structure of wheeled apc from 5 to 10
And you in CombatGAmeConstants.json have some unnecessary lines that are the same as vanilla so they don't do anything (though perhaps you have other reasons for including them? I don't know modding):
"PhaseAssaultVehicle": 5,
"PhaseHeavyTurret": 5,
"PhaseAssaultTurret": 5
"ToHitVehicleAssault": 0,
"ToHitVehicleHeavy": 0,
"MeleeDamageMultiplierTurret": 2.0,
"MeleeDamageMultiplierVehicle": 2.0,
One thing I would love to see is the option to turn each of the edits you mention on and off in the main JSON file.
I know I can change the settings myself, and I actually did, but many people wont, and I can't be 100% sure I made the right edits.
Personally I turned off VehiclesGetGuarded, because I think that's something specifically mech related. Mechs are able to move their body parts to minimize damage when they are "on guard", like moving their arm out of the way of an incoming missile. (Though I personally think that guarded should, by that argument, reduce hit chance to half in stead, but that's another discussion).
Thanks again for the mod.
When I tested the same settings you use it made my game unintentionally EASIER rather than harder.
The reason is: I found out that you could simply "wait" the lighter turrets "out" until their phase was done, by reserving actions.
As long as there were no other enemies in the area, that was simple and logical to do. After waiting / reserving until the last phase, my mechs could simply walk a few meters until they were in weapons range and had visual contact and blast the turrets to bits.
The thing is that I found myself approaching base related contracts differently, because I knew I could wait the turrets out and if my pilots somehow DIDN'T manage to blow them all up (thnx RNG-Jesus) than nothing bad would happen as long as my mechs in the turrets range were all lights or mediums buffed up one phase so they would have another chance at blowing them up or retreating without return-fire.
At the end of the day it's just a matter of preference since almost everyone should be able to edit these settings however they want :D
In the TT game vehicles have a lot of nerfs compared to Mechs just to keep Mechs as kings.
Big one that always bothered me, and a perfect example, Vehicles (even Clan) can only use basic single heat sinks.
Not double, compact, laser, etc etc. To counter that though I suppose, on Energy weapons require heat sinks.
Another one, any section has all of its structure eliminated (and this is in game) the vehicle is completely destroyed.
Some vehicles (hover come to mind) couldnt go through woods.