I like this mod but id like to see an alternative version that's a -4 or -3 to hit. using a DPR calc it looks like you actually lose DPR at most enemy AC, to make this feature worth using a -4 to hit would allow it to be slightly better DPR than base dual wielding and a -3 to hit would make it competitive with GWM (better than GWM if you have a lot of on-hit damage effects from spells or items).
here is the calculator I used. https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/
btw, I'm also thinking of adding some optional version that would work something like this: Attack Rolls penalty remains -5 but applies only to offhand attack. What do you think about it?
I decided to check the math myself, with a breakdown. Probably the closest to 'equal' level to check is level 5, with Extra Attack. https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/
My assumptions: - A principle from many 5e optimizers is that you have about a 65% chance to hit most level-appropriate creatures. - 65% chance equates to an 8 on a d20. (RPGbot counts the crit chance as separate from hit, so the display will be different) - This goes down by 5% if you fail to increase your accuracy with an ASI at levels 4 and 8, so we'll end up at 60% because we took a feat. - Because we know we have access to +X magic weapons (not normally assumed in these calculations), though, we'll add that extra 5% back from a +1 weapon. - We'll also check with and without advantage on all of the attacks being made. - Crit chance is 5% normally, and 9.75% with advantage, as normal (taken into account by the DPR tool). - Apparently the off-hand attack is made with every attack with Extra Attack as well.
Two-Handed Weapon: - +1 Greatsword (2d6) - GWF style (+1.3 damage) - +3 STR - -5/+10 GWM - Extra Attack (2 attacks) Normal: 16.69 DPR Normal(A): 22.95 DPR GWM: 17.50 DPR GWM(A): 29.91 DPR GWM can sometimes weaponize your bonus action as well. If you get a crit or kill somewhere around half the time, that's about +4.2 DPR and +4.6 DPR for the normal and GWM attacks respectively. A fair bit more with advantage.
Two One-Handed Weapons: - 2x +1 Longswords (1d8) - TWF style (+STR to off-hand) - +3 STR - -5/+special Dual Wielder - Extra Attack (3 attacks, or 4 attacks with penalty) Normal: 17.25 DPR Normal(A): 23.69 DPR DW: 14.50 DPR DW(A): 23.52 DPR You need to weaponize your bonus action somehow. Hunter's Mark is pretty accessible here. Without DW, you lose a lot of damage on the round you spend applying Mark, but the DPR will ignore this. Just take note of the asterisk. Normal: 24.60 DPR* Normal(A): 33.93 DPR* DW: 20.80 DPR DW(A): 33.84 DPR
Conclusions: If you can't weaponize your bonus action, then Dual Wielder is always reducing damage -- the -5 penalty to every attack is way too high. If you can weaponize it, such as with Hunter's Mark, then you're only using DW on the turns where you have to apply the bonus action to move your Mark. Essentially, instead of your DPR dropping far below the Normal value when you apply/move Hunter's Mark, it drops to the DW value instead.
However, the bonus action for GWM builds is a fair bit more available, meaning Mark has a significant contribution for them as well. Making GWM just always better, and DW always worse than attacking without the penalty. If you want a world where DW exists to increase damage for TWF builds, then it needs to be improved. If DW occupies the niche of making your BA more flexible when you need it, then I suppose it's possible that a skirmishing style (Rogue, Monk) might want to use it to allow them to disengage.
Monk might see a more significant increase in damage from this, but I'm not sure. It would require a 6th level character since Monks would need to multiclass to get access to the fighting style, and if you wanna just look at a 6th level Fighter with their extra feat, then taking a simple ASI does a lot to counteract that.
Solutions: I'll experiment with the math for different solutions, including only applying the penalty to the TWF off-hand attacks, at a later date. My bed calls to me.
It's not just about whether it's free-but-worse, it's about the fact that taking the -5 means it can now scale with sources of additional attacks, such as Extra Attack, Action Surge, maybe even possibly Cleave, if there are any one-handed weapons which can do a Cleave in BG3. In other words: GWM is -5/10, but Dual Wielder is -5/+attacks.
So now let's explore options. I'll start with checking to see if the -5 penalty only applying to the off-hand makes it a damage increase. I'll reprint some numbers first: 2H: 16.69 DPR adv: 22.95 DPR GWM: 17.50 DPR adv: 29.91 DPR
Now for Dual Wielder, where the -5 penalty only applies to the off-hand attacks, comparing with and without the penalty, and Extra Attack just as before. TWF: 17.25 DPR adv: 23.69 DPR DW: 18.75 DPR adv: 27.55 DPR
So in general, GWF and TWF are pretty close at level 5, with and without advantage. And DW at least no longer reduces damage. But at its base, it's still weaker. So let's compare Hex/Hunter's Mark for *both* feats, so that we have a reasonable baseline for weaponized bonus actions (instead of looking at the chance of triggering GWM's bonus action): DW+Hex: 26.80 DPR adv: 39.54 DPR GWM+Hex: 20.65 DPR adv: 33.41 DPR
This definitely pulls Dual Wielder pretty far ahead, doing better damage and the additional attacks ensuring you're less likely to do very little damage on your turn, unlike just two low-accuracy power attacks. And technically speaking, GWM's trigger still works while dual wielding, so that's an extra sting.
Hear me out: -5/+5. DW just removing the bonus action and scaling with extra attack does nothing to increase damage before level 5, while GWM is still a damage increase (especially with advantage) without it. You also need some other source to increase damage, unlike GWM which just works on its own. I want DW to be the feat you take to do big damage with TWF, the same as with GWF.
So let's apply -5/+5 to all TWF attacks. TWF (3 attacks): 17.25 DPR adv: 23.69 DPR DW (-5/+5, 4 attacks): 22.50 DPR adv: 36.31 DPR
Okay never mind, that is a significant increase in damage with advantage...
I'm not sure what the right solution is. I still don't like that this version of DW does very little to increase damage on its own. It's still just +1 DPR (from non-Light weapons) and +1 AC, and it's a big penalty if you're trying to use your bonus action for something else.
Perhaps Dual Wielder should allow you to treat a Versatile weapon as though it were two-handed. Even bigger dice upgrade. I don't know at this stage.
Thank you so much for your work! I really appreciate it.
Well, if there isn't a way to find a perfectly balanced solution (which is probably the case) there is still a posibility to find versions that are more or less tailored to specific playstyles. I guess that's what modding is all about, a means to modify something to better fit one's needs lol. For instance, -5 offhand only may already be somewhat recommended to people who don't plan to use or stack additional damage sources.
only comparing 4 main hand + offhand attacks against 2 main hand attacks + 1 bonus offhand attack to say this mod makes you weaker is disingenuous.
A level 11 fighter with haste, bloodlust elixir, and action surge attacks 24 times in a single turn with this mod, multiplying every on-hit effect by the same number. It's beyond busted.
What is GWM's 120 damage in this same situation, compared to that?
If the proof that the mod (as it currently exists) is extremely strong is to create an end-game level 11 minmax multiattack build with magic items and spells, then you've failed to prove anything. The Dual Wielder feat should be functional from level 4 when you can first acquire it, to support dual wielders who would fall behind at level 4 or 5 (and stay behind for the rest of the game), just like GWM does for two-handed heavy weapon builds. The feat should simply work, and not make you worse because you didn't build the minmax character that the mod was made for according to you.
(And personally, I want a solution that also works for the actual tabletop game, since I've yet to find a dual wielding solution I'm happy with in the core system itself, which is why I've become invested in this mod and these threads, since I'd never thought of the idea this mod offers. So I don't care as much if, for example, it's a bit busted with Larian's Haste or some other buff they've implemented. Nerfing Haste is the solution to that, not everything else.)
The proof that the mod is strong is that it addresses what made twf weak in the first place: it relied on bonus actions. This made it weaker as time went on and the bonus action accounted for less and less of your total damage. But at low levels you don't even need this mod to TWF, every discussion ever done on this will point out how TWF is really good at low levels without even any feats. It just falls off later. That is all the mod needs to address.
GWM is -5 for 10 damage. This mod is -5 for double damage, with a free +1 AC, being able to bring effects from two different weapons, and much more easily using dexterity which is a much better stat than strength. And for some reason you're trying to sell this narrative that that's weak.
And GWM isn't even good at level 4 either unless you have permanent advantage from reckless attacks and even then you'd probably want higher modifiers first, and the same would apply to TWF with this mod. It's just that TWF naturally is better before you start stacking extra actions.
There's no narrative here, it's math. This mod is not -5 for double damage, it's -5 to all attacks for more scaling with Attack actions (so +1 attack at level 5, +2 attacks specifically for Fighters at lv11, and anything else like Action Surge or Haste). That's why you need to look at DPR, based on accuracy, not simply Damage Per Attack.
GWM provides damage at level 4 when you acquire it, even despite being rather swingy for damage, and gets better as you go. But it's almost always better on average even despite sacrificing an ASI. You can get advantage for many different reasons, because parties exist, so in actual play with deadly combats when 3 rounds is enough to drop a PC, yeah you might not chance such swingy attacks, but it performs better on average even without advantage.
In general, GWM immediately pulls ahead of most TWF builds, and regular DW only provides +1 AC (which amounts to a free Defense style, since you're almost certainly taking TWF style) and +1 damage on your attacks by going from d6 to d8 weapons. That's why any version of DW that wants to occupy the same niche as GWM or PAM for pumping useful benefits into weapon archetypes should be providing damage *as part of the feat*, not as part of an interaction you have to create at later levels, and not just as part of scaling. The fall-off happens immediately at level 4 and then continues on from there.
But also, ANY character that can use Heavy weapons can take GWM and see benefits, even without Extra Attack. DW should not be built to make Fighters better, it should work for everyone.
The "additional effects of two weapons" is a very scarce niche that doesn't happen at most tables, but the plethora of magic weapons in BG3 specifically is very note-worthy, so you're absolutely right that if you can find weapons that supports this, it's an improvement. (I'm not sure of any weapons in particular off the top of my head, but I'm still in Act 1, so I'm sure there are powerful weapon interactions later on, as I know there already are for 2H users.)
Let's see the math on DPR with more actions, then.
Just a basic Haste + Action Surge round at around half the game. Let's say, +5 modifier, +2 weapons, a +1d4 on hit effect, +1d4 fire from a glove, and +2 acid on a ring, all act 1 and 2 items. With advantage, let's say from risky ring. And just regular level 5 extra attack.
That's 175 from 12 attacks for dual wield, and 134 from 7 attacks from GWM. GWM used their bonus action. Dual wield didn't.
The difference only gets bigger the farther into the game you go and the more on-hit effects come into play. And you want this buffed so you do more damage at level 4, a point in which TWF without any feat at all still does decent damage anyway because your bonus action counts for a lot. Please. You're in act 1. Just get your ASI and do your regular bonus action attack. It's still good at that point.
As long as you double the number of atk on DW the math will look wonky, as flat modifiers from gear exist in BG3 and don't exist in the TT game for this very reason.
A very simple solution to this mod would be to just make the DW attack free of any penalties, not tied to the feat at all and trigger only ONCE per attack ACTION. This is how D&D Next is handling it and its far from perfect, but I think its worth looking into.
So in essence every time you use the attack ACTION you get 1 (or 2) Main Weapon attacks and 1 offhand attack.
If you get hasted you again get 2 main + 1 offhand.
@valenhill So we're assuming 8th level, so that you could get an 18 at level 6 and then a 20 at level 8. Straight Fighter, then? Alright. So 65% becomes 75% with a +2 weapon. Then we apply advantage.
Two main hand attacks with every action, which we have 3 of on round 1 (BG3 Haste should be nerfed), so that's 6 main hand attacks. And with DW, we take the -5 and make equally as many off-hand attacks; while with GWM, we take the -5 to add +10 to those main hands, and like you said, assume the bonus action trigger (crit or kill) for 7 main hand attacks.
That's 177.62 DPR for the DW, and 170.94 DPR for the GWM. I'm sorry, how did you get your math? Did you forget to add +10 in the calculator for GWM? I do that a lot too. Seems like GWM and this version of DW are actually quite balanced at mid levels when you build for it. A shame that DW is doing so poor at levels 4 and 5.
@azmodael That only nerfs extra attack actions, which Haste shouldn't be giving you more than one attack anyway, as that's stupidly powerful. The problems with TWF and GWF start when you add feats, as GWM immediately outclasses most TWF builds in average DPR with standard ACs. GWM is the clear winner right away at level 5, which your solution does nothing to alleviate.
Perhaps if that were the core rule, and DW was given some other kind of interaction, like some of the other ones I suggested like maybe a -5/+5 sort of situation, it might be favorable. I'll check the math at a later date.
I was going to add hunter's mark for the bonus action for DW and decided to remove it because the target almost certainly wouldn't live through all 12 attacks, and I removed it from the post but forgot to remove it from the calculation. But it actually still makes for a better representation because if both your weapons have on-hit effects, they both are applied to every hit. Act 2 for example has 2 weapons and a bow that reduce crit range by 1, so with all three of them every hit crits on 17-20.
Putting the exact numbers on your post on 13 min hit still gives me 147 for GWM and 166 for DW. And again, DW only gets stronger from here. You have no idea how much damage this puts out at the end of the game, even without min maxing. This is why you shouldn't be trying to balance a mod before you've finished the game. You're not basing your perspective on how things actually plays out in practice.
Besides, what I'm actually pushing against is the idea that you want to make DW STRONGER STILL when you can already do these 12 hits at level 5 with any martial and a caster or potions of speed. If you want someone to make you a cheat mod just say so, no one's going to judge. But don't misrepresent this as underpowered to get it. You have to show the complete picture.
It is EXTREMELY EASY to be OP in 5th Edition. We're talking about the system that BUFFED the Twilight Cleric before it was published, and that published the Handy Haversack as a higher rarity version of the Bag of Holding that was intended to be a smaller dimensional space but that didn't require an Action to access, but is instead an objectively worse magic item because they copy and pasted the "Action" text from the Bag of Holding. This is the same system that has several versions of common-quality water-breathing items where one is the objectively best item. The same system that launched without a playtesting the bonus action mechanic.
BG3 inherits the same problem from its source material, that you usually have to balance the game in multiple areas at the same time, because any one change in isolation usually causes something else to become worse or too strong (never mind if it ends up being a net positive, as people have negativity biases).
So when you tell me that "This causes that to be broken", my response is "So fix that too??". But I don't know the capacity of the modding community to even adjust pre-existing items, so that might be me expecting too much from playing the actual system to carry over here. Especially of our friend Crunchydeer here... But either way...
The math demonstrates that -5/+scaling just turns it into a trap feat at least at low levels. I'm not 'trying to make it stronger when it's so obviously overpowered', and I don't appreciate such condescending comments. I'm trying to help make it a balanced feat that occupies GWM's niche, since TWF is reasonably close to GWF in a featless game, and is decimated in a game with feats. It's one of the only feats that supports TWF. So I don't consider it acceptable to say that you should just play with a GWM build until you have enough on-hit magic item effects and action-stacking to make DW finally viable (nor just saying "good luck" if you're not specifically a Fighter), and by the time you do so, you're talking anywhere from 10% to 50% better on over a hundred DPR nova rounds using buff support and consumables.
So, got anything constructive for addressing TWF and Dual Wielder? Ideally without trying to balance a feat around magic items. Because from what you've said, it looks more like all Dual Wielder and TWF really needs to be is to say that it scales with Extra Attack (possibly even removing the bonus ability damage from the style to compensate).
(PS: I also forgot the GWF style's +1.3 damage per hit for a greatsword in my previous post, so that puts GWM a bit higher when making 7 attacks)
@valenhill The 24 attack's is unrealistic and literally only affects level 11+ fighters, and just because it creates one broken exploitable condition doesn't mean it isn't a positive change. I have to always be on the side of those that want to change twf to be equal in damage to other fighting styles, considering its high risk playstyle. Also don't go blame the game's issues which are there regardless of twf on someone else's math and then proceed to be toxic about it.
in my games I rule that you get 1 free attack per turn while twf instead of it being a bonus action attack, which doesn't scale with the numbers of extra attacks you get. I also introduced the 2 weapon strikes opportunity attack rule which has been a fantastic way to set dual wielder as an alternative to polearm master for sentinel. my other rule is more QoL but it is to stow and draw two weapons as a free action without the dual wielder feat. I wouldn't change the dual wielder feat, but I saw a video that convinced me that if you wanted to match GWM in terms of strength with that feat, you could keep accuracy unchanged and add a +1 to damage at level 5, +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 20, which is what I do in my games.
I am not talking about exclusively 24 attacks a turn, I am not talking about 5e, and I am not blaming any other issues with the game.
I am pushing back against this frankly nonsensical perception that -5 for double damage is worse off than -5 for +10 damage. It is just not grounded in reality, and being parroted by people who are still in act 1 and don't understand how the game actually plays out.
I am also pushing back against the perception that TWF needs to "fixed" at level 4. The problems with TWF only arise once the value of your bonus attack decreases. When you're at say level 4, your damage is still around the same level as GWM. That's also like, a couple of hours into the game.
If you want TWF to be equal to GWM, this mod does this only at the point where your attacks deal 10 damage each. Which is still relatively early. The further you go past that point (and believe me, it does go a lot further), TWF grows increasingly stronger.
And again, that is fine, I have no problem with that. Just don't say this mod makes TWF weaker and use that as a justification for a stronger version, that's asinine and disingenuous.
Has anyone accounted for crits and crit range in these damage calculations? That might help give a more clear picture, rather than complaining about 24 attack nova's when you can make 19 attacks in a single round without this mod already. Using a game breaking combo and then complaining that it's game breaking is laughable, and the extra attack on each action just breaks it even further. I would like to know however if crit chance and damage are accounted for, as *that* could help spell the answer on whether or not -5/+attack is worth it. It's rather easy to get a crit range of 18-20 in this game with 1 or 2 magic items that are readily available, and 4 attacks (just Extra Attack action) + 1d4(weapon extra damage or item) +1d6 (hex or hunters mark) could amplify this further. For my background, I've played 5th edition for years, have DM'd for years, am DMing a campaign implementing One DND TWF rules, and am an optimizer through and through and know how to run and read damage calculations. I've also beaten the game with 150 hours played and gotten nearly every noteworthy legendary and very rare magic item.
you want op play 3.5, if only power attack exsisted to make everything even, except it didnt back then either. Dnd is an amazing game that you can easy break since back in Adnd with swashblucker rogue getting +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels and the trade off was cant use poison lol leading it to 4 attacks per round, that means 8 hits normal with out haste or items that let you do more. 5e is baby s#*! compare but atleast its fun
Alright so coming back to this a few days later. This feat can absolutely break the game with its current iteration of extra actions. Granted, it needs specific items but the build I theorycrafted is as follows. Dual +3 Longswords/Axes/any D8 damage weapon. With 22 Strength (achievable with starting 17, +1 Auntie Ethel's Hair, +2 Araj's potion, +2 from ASI), Legacy of the Masters (+2 to attack and damage rolls), the Caustic Band (+2 Acid dmg per attack), Strange Conduit Ring (+1d4 psychic while concentrating(for our use case, on hunter's mark), Magic Initiate: Warlock for Hex (1d6 necrotic per attack) or a 1 Level dip into Warlock for Hex, a weapon imbuement for 1d6 damage (this will need mods, something along the lines of the imbuement mod or custom dual wieldable d8 weapons with imbued damage), you are pumping out 27 average damage per hit. With 11th Level Fighter, thats 3 attacks per attack action, or 6 with this mod (assuming all are at -5 to hit isnt bad at max level with +15 to hit regularly). On a turn where the theoretical fighter action surges, that becomes 12 attacks with 27 avg damage, if you manage to kill someone while under the effects of Elixir of Bloodlust, that becomes 18 attacks, and if you get someone to cast Haste on you, that becomes 24 attacks at 27 average damage, for a grand total of.... 648 average damage in one round. Each attack action is worth 162 damage. If you have the effect that lets you take BA and Actions interchangeably, round 2 gives you an additional 6 attacks from your bonus action for 810 damage on 30 attacks.
In conclusion, this just goes to show the f*#@ing insanity in this game that is damage riders, but the point stands. I suggest adding a version of this mod that gives you a single free off-hand attack (no negatives) per attack action. In this hypothetical scenario, that brings you down from 24 attacks to a much more reasonable 16 attacks (still gigabusted but at this point its the games fault for breaking Haste and Bloodlust Elixir) for an average damage of 432/540(if using BA to attack) versus 648/810.
The only additional mods needed to make this work are crafting mods, the ones I use are https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/444 and https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1626 . Without those mods, it gets taken down quite a bit but you can makeup for it with +2 generic weapons and Helldusk gauntlets for 1d6 fire damage on every hit and lose out on the 3 damage from downgrading from +3 to +2 weapons and losing legacy of the masters.
Can you dual wield two-handed weapons with this mod? Stronger characters like Lae'zel or Karlach should be able to do this, but the game is stupid and doesn't allow that.
No you can't. BG3 uses (for the most part) the 5e rules with small changes made for game balance and qol improvements. Allowing that would just be insane and there's nothing in 5e that governs that. Maybe there's a mod out there that allows it but there's no way in hell that Larian would just let you do it for free (or even any regular D&D table for that matter).
i think -3 and -4 might be a bit too busted on the right build in late game. for something like paladin, it essentially doubles your smite busrt damage at the very least. add all the damage boosting gear on top of that (hell dusk/ legacy of master, callous glow ring, acid ring, buff/debuff like hunter mark or hex or phalar aluve...) you end up with a much higher extra damage than GWM, like 25 or so average per hit without accounting for smite, which can go even further potentially, my build isnt very optimised. and the biggest downsid of GWM is the" all or nothing", eighter big damage or miss, trading damage agaisnt acuracy. yet with DWM, since you roll twice, you have a mcuh higher chance of hitting at least on time.
so all in all, TLDR, in late game, with the right build, even the -5 version outclass GWM imo.
One idea could be to leave it at a bonus action but give the bonus action attack an extra dmg die (example: scimitar would be 2d6+mod) for no attack penalty. I think having a -2/3 on all attacks and removing the option to make a 3rd offhand attack with the bonus action sounds fai/ maybe allowing 1 offhand attack without costing a bonus action but having to pay the bonus action for the second one (with either 0-2 penalty on attack) if this is technicly possible.
TLDR: - the guy who started "allat" (anaseskyrider, not the deadlykitten) is too focused on building their own greenhouse amidst TT dnd, and it's issues to see this mod for what it is, namely - a simple mod set in an existing environment too big for it alone to re-shape (aka "fix that as well") in it's entirety. -Valenhil was being a voice of reason about "allat" and gets kudos from me for that. His position, if I understand it correctly, is that what we should be comparing is hell of a lot less complex then our math "experts" made it out to be.
Namely, the balance of the mod boils down to a simple question - "is -5 attack for +10 damage better than -5 attack for an extra attack?", and "allat" was doing nothing but derailing the answer.
And the answer is - "HELL NO, definitely not in BG3. Extra attack is hellovalot better than plain +10 damage. The mod's feat is already more BUSTED then the vanilla game's one of the top 3 most busted feats even at it's highest penalty option of -5."
So much for "lack of a simple answer", uhhuh...
TLDR for my TLDR - This mod is busted even at it's strongest current penalty.
Thanks for mod. Its frustrating how underwhelming dual wielding is in dnd.
Im actually running the no penalty variant. Its matchs my IRL tabletop game where we have baked the off hand attack into the attack action. For our tabletop, a massive improvement.
Is there a way that you could disable the off hand attack button after the attack action? At the moment, I can make my attack action, get my off hand attack, and then use my bonus action to make another off hand attack. (I try to avoid doing it....but the temptation!)
Underwhelming, huh? I'm yet to see even a single game, tabletop included, where DW is even remotely as useless as it actually is IRL. (excluding the ones where it's not implemented as an option at all, which is, admittedly, the closest it ever got to being realistic, except those never do the SSS the justice it deserves either and SnB is left the only decent way to use 1-handers there)
Does this mod still work or it requires other mod fixer.
I think the dual wielding part still works. It still gives me passive and ability to use off-hand attack without costing bonus action, but now I cannot interact with characters, rest, etc.
I used this mod fixer https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/141 but it still doesn't work. I tried using other popular dual wielder mod, but I want to add modification to my on-going run save file, and I don't think the other mod does it.
So... after reading all the math, which version of this mod is most balanced (relative to great weapon master)? It sounds like the -5 version, but is it -5 to both attacks or just -5 to the second attack?
I wish there was a feat like Sharp-Shooter and Great Weapon Master called "Dual-wielding Master" each attack hits with both weapons +10 dmg with a -5 to hit. Sharp-Shooter, adds +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & better hit at ranged options. Great Weapon Master, adds +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & a chance for a bonus action hit. Dual-wielding Master, +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & adds +1 to critical hit range
GWM has flat +10 dmg so it makes huge difference on total dmg. Greatsword (2d6) has a higher minimum dmg possible just coz of that +10 dmg. So I belive that dual wield should 've same thing like gwm has or something like +5 for each swing.
154 comments
here is the calculator I used. https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/
btw, I'm also thinking of adding some optional version that would work something like this:
Attack Rolls penalty remains -5 but applies only to offhand attack. What do you think about it?
https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/
My assumptions:
- A principle from many 5e optimizers is that you have about a 65% chance to hit most level-appropriate creatures.
- 65% chance equates to an 8 on a d20. (RPGbot counts the crit chance as separate from hit, so the display will be different)
- This goes down by 5% if you fail to increase your accuracy with an ASI at levels 4 and 8, so we'll end up at 60% because we took a feat.
- Because we know we have access to +X magic weapons (not normally assumed in these calculations), though, we'll add that extra 5% back from a +1 weapon.
- We'll also check with and without advantage on all of the attacks being made.
- Crit chance is 5% normally, and 9.75% with advantage, as normal (taken into account by the DPR tool).
- Apparently the off-hand attack is made with every attack with Extra Attack as well.
Two-Handed Weapon:
- +1 Greatsword (2d6)
- GWF style (+1.3 damage)
- +3 STR
- -5/+10 GWM
- Extra Attack (2 attacks)
Normal: 16.69 DPR
GWM can sometimes weaponize your bonus action as well. If you get a crit or kill somewhere around half the time, that's about +4.2 DPR and +4.6 DPR for the normal and GWM attacks respectively. A fair bit more with advantage.Normal(A): 22.95 DPR
GWM: 17.50 DPR
GWM(A): 29.91 DPR
Two One-Handed Weapons:
- 2x +1 Longswords (1d8)
- TWF style (+STR to off-hand)
- +3 STR
- -5/+special Dual Wielder
- Extra Attack (3 attacks, or 4 attacks with penalty)
Normal: 17.25 DPR
You need to weaponize your bonus action somehow. Hunter's Mark is pretty accessible here. Without DW, you lose a lot of damage on the round you spend applying Mark, but the DPR will ignore this. Just take note of the asterisk.Normal(A): 23.69 DPR
DW: 14.50 DPR
DW(A): 23.52 DPR
Normal: 24.60 DPR*
Normal(A): 33.93 DPR*
DW: 20.80 DPR
DW(A): 33.84 DPR
Conclusions:
If you can't weaponize your bonus action, then Dual Wielder is always reducing damage -- the -5 penalty to every attack is way too high. If you can weaponize it, such as with Hunter's Mark, then you're only using DW on the turns where you have to apply the bonus action to move your Mark. Essentially, instead of your DPR dropping far below the Normal value when you apply/move Hunter's Mark, it drops to the DW value instead.
However, the bonus action for GWM builds is a fair bit more available, meaning Mark has a significant contribution for them as well. Making GWM just always better, and DW always worse than attacking without the penalty. If you want a world where DW exists to increase damage for TWF builds, then it needs to be improved. If DW occupies the niche of making your BA more flexible when you need it, then I suppose it's possible that a skirmishing style (Rogue, Monk) might want to use it to allow them to disengage.
Monk might see a more significant increase in damage from this, but I'm not sure. It would require a 6th level character since Monks would need to multiclass to get access to the fighting style, and if you wanna just look at a 6th level Fighter with their extra feat, then taking a simple ASI does a lot to counteract that.
Solutions:
I'll experiment with the math for different solutions, including only applying the penalty to the TWF off-hand attacks, at a later date. My bed calls to me.
2H: 16.69 DPR
adv: 22.95 DPR
GWM: 17.50 DPR
adv: 29.91 DPR
Now for Dual Wielder, where the -5 penalty only applies to the off-hand attacks, comparing with and without the penalty, and Extra Attack just as before.
TWF: 17.25 DPR
adv: 23.69 DPR
DW: 18.75 DPR
adv: 27.55 DPR
So in general, GWF and TWF are pretty close at level 5, with and without advantage. And DW at least no longer reduces damage. But at its base, it's still weaker. So let's compare Hex/Hunter's Mark for *both* feats, so that we have a reasonable baseline for weaponized bonus actions (instead of looking at the chance of triggering GWM's bonus action):
DW+Hex: 26.80 DPR
adv: 39.54 DPR
GWM+Hex: 20.65 DPR
adv: 33.41 DPR
This definitely pulls Dual Wielder pretty far ahead, doing better damage and the additional attacks ensuring you're less likely to do very little damage on your turn, unlike just two low-accuracy power attacks. And technically speaking, GWM's trigger still works while dual wielding, so that's an extra sting.
Hear me out: -5/+5. DW just removing the bonus action and scaling with extra attack does nothing to increase damage before level 5, while GWM is still a damage increase (especially with advantage) without it. You also need some other source to increase damage, unlike GWM which just works on its own. I want DW to be the feat you take to do big damage with TWF, the same as with GWF.
So let's apply -5/+5 to all TWF attacks.
TWF (3 attacks): 17.25 DPR
adv: 23.69 DPR
DW (-5/+5, 4 attacks): 22.50 DPR
adv: 36.31 DPR
Okay never mind, that is a significant increase in damage with advantage...
I'm not sure what the right solution is. I still don't like that this version of DW does very little to increase damage on its own. It's still just +1 DPR (from non-Light weapons) and +1 AC, and it's a big penalty if you're trying to use your bonus action for something else.
Perhaps Dual Wielder should allow you to treat a Versatile weapon as though it were two-handed. Even bigger dice upgrade. I don't know at this stage.
Well, if there isn't a way to find a perfectly balanced solution (which is probably the case) there is still a posibility to find versions that are more or less tailored to specific playstyles. I guess that's what modding is all about, a means to modify something to better fit one's needs lol.
For instance, -5 offhand only may already be somewhat recommended to people who don't plan to use or stack additional damage sources.
A level 11 fighter with haste, bloodlust elixir, and action surge attacks 24 times in a single turn with this mod, multiplying every on-hit effect by the same number. It's beyond busted.
What is GWM's 120 damage in this same situation, compared to that?
(And personally, I want a solution that also works for the actual tabletop game, since I've yet to find a dual wielding solution I'm happy with in the core system itself, which is why I've become invested in this mod and these threads, since I'd never thought of the idea this mod offers. So I don't care as much if, for example, it's a bit busted with Larian's Haste or some other buff they've implemented. Nerfing Haste is the solution to that, not everything else.)
GWM is -5 for 10 damage. This mod is -5 for double damage, with a free +1 AC, being able to bring effects from two different weapons, and much more easily using dexterity which is a much better stat than strength. And for some reason you're trying to sell this narrative that that's weak.
And GWM isn't even good at level 4 either unless you have permanent advantage from reckless attacks and even then you'd probably want higher modifiers first, and the same would apply to TWF with this mod. It's just that TWF naturally is better before you start stacking extra actions.
GWM provides damage at level 4 when you acquire it, even despite being rather swingy for damage, and gets better as you go. But it's almost always better on average even despite sacrificing an ASI. You can get advantage for many different reasons, because parties exist, so in actual play with deadly combats when 3 rounds is enough to drop a PC, yeah you might not chance such swingy attacks, but it performs better on average even without advantage.
In general, GWM immediately pulls ahead of most TWF builds, and regular DW only provides +1 AC (which amounts to a free Defense style, since you're almost certainly taking TWF style) and +1 damage on your attacks by going from d6 to d8 weapons. That's why any version of DW that wants to occupy the same niche as GWM or PAM for pumping useful benefits into weapon archetypes should be providing damage *as part of the feat*, not as part of an interaction you have to create at later levels, and not just as part of scaling. The fall-off happens immediately at level 4 and then continues on from there.
But also, ANY character that can use Heavy weapons can take GWM and see benefits, even without Extra Attack. DW should not be built to make Fighters better, it should work for everyone.
The "additional effects of two weapons" is a very scarce niche that doesn't happen at most tables, but the plethora of magic weapons in BG3 specifically is very note-worthy, so you're absolutely right that if you can find weapons that supports this, it's an improvement. (I'm not sure of any weapons in particular off the top of my head, but I'm still in Act 1, so I'm sure there are powerful weapon interactions later on, as I know there already are for 2H users.)
Just a basic Haste + Action Surge round at around half the game. Let's say, +5 modifier, +2 weapons, a +1d4 on hit effect, +1d4 fire from a glove, and +2 acid on a ring, all act 1 and 2 items. With advantage, let's say from risky ring. And just regular level 5 extra attack.
That's 175 from 12 attacks for dual wield, and 134 from 7 attacks from GWM. GWM used their bonus action. Dual wield didn't.
The difference only gets bigger the farther into the game you go and the more on-hit effects come into play. And you want this buffed so you do more damage at level 4, a point in which TWF without any feat at all still does decent damage anyway because your bonus action counts for a lot. Please. You're in act 1. Just get your ASI and do your regular bonus action attack. It's still good at that point.
Once again: this mod is beyond busted as it is.
A very simple solution to this mod would be to just make the DW attack free of any penalties, not tied to the feat at all and trigger only ONCE per attack ACTION. This is how D&D Next is handling it and its far from perfect, but I think its worth looking into.
So in essence every time you use the attack ACTION you get 1 (or 2) Main Weapon attacks and 1 offhand attack.
If you get hasted you again get 2 main + 1 offhand.
So we're assuming 8th level, so that you could get an 18 at level 6 and then a 20 at level 8. Straight Fighter, then? Alright. So 65% becomes 75% with a +2 weapon. Then we apply advantage.
TWF: 1d8+5+2 +1d4 +1d4 +2
DW: -5/+attacks
2H: 2d6+5+2 +1d4 +1d4 +2
GWM: -5/+10
Two main hand attacks with every action, which we have 3 of on round 1 (BG3 Haste should be nerfed), so that's 6 main hand attacks. And with DW, we take the -5 and make equally as many off-hand attacks; while with GWM, we take the -5 to add +10 to those main hands, and like you said, assume the bonus action trigger (crit or kill) for 7 main hand attacks.
That's 177.62 DPR for the DW, and 170.94 DPR for the GWM. I'm sorry, how did you get your math? Did you forget to add +10 in the calculator for GWM? I do that a lot too. Seems like GWM and this version of DW are actually quite balanced at mid levels when you build for it. A shame that DW is doing so poor at levels 4 and 5.
@azmodael
That only nerfs extra attack actions, which Haste shouldn't be giving you more than one attack anyway, as that's stupidly powerful. The problems with TWF and GWF start when you add feats, as GWM immediately outclasses most TWF builds in average DPR with standard ACs. GWM is the clear winner right away at level 5, which your solution does nothing to alleviate.
Perhaps if that were the core rule, and DW was given some other kind of interaction, like some of the other ones I suggested like maybe a -5/+5 sort of situation, it might be favorable. I'll check the math at a later date.
Putting the exact numbers on your post on 13 min hit still gives me 147 for GWM and 166 for DW. And again, DW only gets stronger from here. You have no idea how much damage this puts out at the end of the game, even without min maxing. This is why you shouldn't be trying to balance a mod before you've finished the game. You're not basing your perspective on how things actually plays out in practice.
Besides, what I'm actually pushing against is the idea that you want to make DW STRONGER STILL when you can already do these 12 hits at level 5 with any martial and a caster or potions of speed. If you want someone to make you a cheat mod just say so, no one's going to judge. But don't misrepresent this as underpowered to get it. You have to show the complete picture.
BG3 inherits the same problem from its source material, that you usually have to balance the game in multiple areas at the same time, because any one change in isolation usually causes something else to become worse or too strong (never mind if it ends up being a net positive, as people have negativity biases).
So when you tell me that "This causes that to be broken", my response is "So fix that too??". But I don't know the capacity of the modding community to even adjust pre-existing items, so that might be me expecting too much from playing the actual system to carry over here. Especially of our friend Crunchydeer here... But either way...
The math demonstrates that -5/+scaling just turns it into a trap feat at least at low levels. I'm not 'trying to make it stronger when it's so obviously overpowered', and I don't appreciate such condescending comments. I'm trying to help make it a balanced feat that occupies GWM's niche, since TWF is reasonably close to GWF in a featless game, and is decimated in a game with feats. It's one of the only feats that supports TWF. So I don't consider it acceptable to say that you should just play with a GWM build until you have enough on-hit magic item effects and action-stacking to make DW finally viable (nor just saying "good luck" if you're not specifically a Fighter), and by the time you do so, you're talking anywhere from 10% to 50% better on over a hundred DPR nova rounds using buff support and consumables.
So, got anything constructive for addressing TWF and Dual Wielder? Ideally without trying to balance a feat around magic items. Because from what you've said, it looks more like all Dual Wielder and TWF really needs to be is to say that it scales with Extra Attack (possibly even removing the bonus ability damage from the style to compensate).
(PS: I also forgot the GWF style's +1.3 damage per hit for a greatsword in my previous post, so that puts GWM a bit higher when making 7 attacks)
The 24 attack's is unrealistic and literally only affects level 11+ fighters, and just because it creates one broken exploitable condition doesn't mean it isn't a positive change. I have to always be on the side of those that want to change twf to be equal in damage to other fighting styles, considering its high risk playstyle. Also don't go blame the game's issues which are there regardless of twf on someone else's math and then proceed to be toxic about it.
in my games I rule that you get 1 free attack per turn while twf instead of it being a bonus action attack, which doesn't scale with the numbers of extra attacks you get. I also introduced the 2 weapon strikes opportunity attack rule which has been a fantastic way to set dual wielder as an alternative to polearm master for sentinel. my other rule is more QoL but it is to stow and draw two weapons as a free action without the dual wielder feat.
I wouldn't change the dual wielder feat, but I saw a video that convinced me that if you wanted to match GWM in terms of strength with that feat, you could keep accuracy unchanged and add a +1 to damage at level 5, +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 20, which is what I do in my games.
I am pushing back against this frankly nonsensical perception that -5 for double damage is worse off than -5 for +10 damage. It is just not grounded in reality, and being parroted by people who are still in act 1 and don't understand how the game actually plays out.
I am also pushing back against the perception that TWF needs to "fixed" at level 4. The problems with TWF only arise once the value of your bonus attack decreases. When you're at say level 4, your damage is still around the same level as GWM. That's also like, a couple of hours into the game.
If you want TWF to be equal to GWM, this mod does this only at the point where your attacks deal 10 damage each. Which is still relatively early. The further you go past that point (and believe me, it does go a lot further), TWF grows increasingly stronger.
And again, that is fine, I have no problem with that. Just don't say this mod makes TWF weaker and use that as a justification for a stronger version, that's asinine and disingenuous.
Dual +3 Longswords/Axes/any D8 damage weapon.
With 22 Strength (achievable with starting 17, +1 Auntie Ethel's Hair, +2 Araj's potion, +2 from ASI), Legacy of the Masters (+2 to attack and damage rolls), the Caustic Band (+2 Acid dmg per attack), Strange Conduit Ring (+1d4 psychic while concentrating(for our use case, on hunter's mark), Magic Initiate: Warlock for Hex (1d6 necrotic per attack) or a 1 Level dip into Warlock for Hex, a weapon imbuement for 1d6 damage (this will need mods, something along the lines of the imbuement mod or custom dual wieldable d8 weapons with imbued damage), you are pumping out 27 average damage per hit. With 11th Level Fighter, thats 3 attacks per attack action, or 6 with this mod (assuming all are at -5 to hit isnt bad at max level with +15 to hit regularly). On a turn where the theoretical fighter action surges, that becomes 12 attacks with 27 avg damage, if you manage to kill someone while under the effects of Elixir of Bloodlust, that becomes 18 attacks, and if you get someone to cast Haste on you, that becomes 24 attacks at 27 average damage, for a grand total of.... 648 average damage in one round. Each attack action is worth 162 damage. If you have the effect that lets you take BA and Actions interchangeably, round 2 gives you an additional 6 attacks from your bonus action for 810 damage on 30 attacks.
In conclusion, this just goes to show the f*#@ing insanity in this game that is damage riders, but the point stands. I suggest adding a version of this mod that gives you a single free off-hand attack (no negatives) per attack action. In this hypothetical scenario, that brings you down from 24 attacks to a much more reasonable 16 attacks (still gigabusted but at this point its the games fault for breaking Haste and Bloodlust Elixir) for an average damage of 432/540(if using BA to attack) versus 648/810.
The only additional mods needed to make this work are crafting mods, the ones I use are https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/444 and https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1626 .
Without those mods, it gets taken down quite a bit but you can makeup for it with +2 generic weapons and Helldusk gauntlets for 1d6 fire damage on every hit and lose out on the 3 damage from downgrading from +3 to +2 weapons and losing legacy of the masters.
for something like paladin, it essentially doubles your smite busrt damage at the very least. add all the damage boosting gear on top of that (hell dusk/ legacy of master, callous glow ring, acid ring, buff/debuff like hunter mark or hex or phalar aluve...) you end up with a much higher extra damage than GWM, like 25 or so average per hit without accounting for smite, which can go even further potentially, my build isnt very optimised.
and the biggest downsid of GWM is the" all or nothing", eighter big damage or miss, trading damage agaisnt acuracy. yet with DWM, since you roll twice, you have a mcuh higher chance of hitting at least on time.
so all in all, TLDR, in late game, with the right build, even the -5 version outclass GWM imo.
TLDR:
- the guy who started "allat" (anaseskyrider, not the deadlykitten) is too focused on building their own greenhouse amidst TT dnd, and it's issues to see this mod for what it is, namely - a simple mod set in an existing environment too big for it alone to re-shape (aka "fix that as well") in it's entirety.
-Valenhil was being a voice of reason about "allat" and gets kudos from me for that. His position, if I understand it correctly, is that what we should be comparing is hell of a lot less complex then our math "experts" made it out to be.
Namely, the balance of the mod boils down to a simple question - "is -5 attack for +10 damage better than -5 attack for an extra attack?", and "allat" was doing nothing but derailing the answer.
And the answer is - "HELL NO, definitely not in BG3. Extra attack is hellovalot better than plain +10 damage. The mod's feat is already more BUSTED then the vanilla game's one of the top 3 most busted feats even at it's highest penalty option of -5."
So much for "lack of a simple answer", uhhuh...
TLDR for my TLDR - This mod is busted even at it's strongest current penalty.
Im actually running the no penalty variant. Its matchs my IRL tabletop game where we have baked the off hand attack into the attack action. For our tabletop, a massive improvement.
Is there a way that you could disable the off hand attack button after the attack action? At the moment, I can make my attack action, get my off hand attack, and then use my bonus action to make another off hand attack. (I try to avoid doing it....but the temptation!)
I'm yet to see even a single game, tabletop included, where DW is even remotely as useless as it actually is IRL. (excluding the ones where it's not implemented as an option at all, which is, admittedly, the closest it ever got to being realistic, except those never do the SSS the justice it deserves either and SnB is left the only decent way to use 1-handers there)
I think the dual wielding part still works. It still gives me passive and ability to use off-hand attack without costing bonus action, but now I cannot interact with characters, rest, etc.
I used this mod fixer https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/141 but it still doesn't work. I tried using other popular dual wielder mod, but I want to add modification to my on-going run save file, and I don't think the other mod does it.
each attack hits with both weapons +10 dmg with a -5 to hit.
Sharp-Shooter, adds +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & better hit at ranged options.
Great Weapon Master, adds +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & a chance for a bonus action hit.
Dual-wielding Master, +10 dmg with a -5 to hit & adds +1 to critical hit range
Would make each powerful and unique.
But can you make it works with Ranged combat ?