Updates ======= v7.5.12, 5 May 2025: - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: were having problems moving towards their module target that is positioned at their stations' 0,0,0 origin. Examples of these types of stations are the Xenon asteroid base stations - and maybe the Khaak hives also. But I've not tested this against Khaak hives. In this version, the module target's orientation and size is taken into account in determing the attack vector for them. - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Move To Engage position were adding the number of times the ship Withdrew to its distance that causes the Move To Engage position to be very far from the station. In this version, the number of times the ship Withdrew is reset when they use the Step Forward behaviour. - Bug-fix: All ships: The Avoid behaviour was sometimes losing its destination data causing it to get stuck "avoiding" the obstacle instead of continuing towards its destination when the obstacle is no longer "in its way".
I needed to disable your mod because my L and XL Ships dont attack any stations anymore. They just roam around the stations without ever attacking. They set a target for their engange position and when they arrive they set a new one and so on...
it's ok if they get a new target when they arrive. my mod tries to prevent that, but x4's targeting system sometimes overrides it. but they should stay on that target. can you take a screenshot of the station layout on the map, so that i can see what is happening, please?
I found the save so here one more snippet of the attack. The repeated repositioning seems really uneccesarry. As far as i think it would be enough to get to the right position and fire until the module gets destroyed.
(https://youtu.be/54c18p97GXw)
At 2:17 you see the ship crawling forward and as soon as it has a position it goes back and repositions? Looks broken.
I had to disable your mod as i cant issue attack command at all. Size of ship or target doesn't matter. The command just dissapears after a second like if it was never there.
I currently only have Cradle of Humanity, I have an Asgard and two Syns trying to attack (a simple right-click attack command, Asgard is leader, Syns set to Attack group) a KHK hive, they fly up to and annihalate two defense structures further from the hive just fine, the second they get the attack command on the defense structures near the hive, all three destroyers end up in an 'Avoid High-Risk Enemy' loop, going back and forth, never engaging. They get too scared to engage, despite how tanky they are and how quickly they took out the other defenses.
I have Avoid High-Risk Enemies disabled in the extensions options, and disabled on the ships via the right-click menu, I can also see under the attack order that the Avoid risk checkbox is unchecked.
The ships ability to stop early, coast into range and shoot at stations work way better than Vanilla, but they refuse to commit on the Hive.
Do I need do get the DLC's? Or is this the result of a bug?
Looks like the avoid high risk target feature is working fine, given during my invasion of Tharaks's Cascade, my XL/L Fleet ships avoided Xenon stations by circling them like a wad of birds over a dead carcass. To be sure I had built up a huge fleet with several hundred ships in total to deal with the absolute hornets nest of ships the Xenon had built up, that was messing with Hatvikva's Choice 1 consistently. Took me two nights this week to clear them all out, One heck of an epic series of fights that chugged my FPS at points. Took down several Qs, Ks and Is along the way.
Not sure if 'high risk' means just stations, or it's supposed to include Capital ships or how this all exactly works. It all did make for interesting behavior by my fighter swarms during station sieges. Hardly any complaints about this mod, probably more against the game engine as to ship behavior inherit in the game. But I did 'only notice this mod choice effects last evening while setting up fleet behavior after reorganizing my fleets after the fact. Hence my post here from what I observed. =^^=
i have a new version coming this week to address the ship's behaviour against stations with modules that are all at 0,0,0 - e.g. xenon asteroid stations (and possibly khaak hives - but i'm not sure because i've not tested this new version against khaak hives). anyway, l and xl ships against these type of stations may become "dumb" very late in battle because they can't determine the vector of their next module target as the module is at 0,0,0 - leaving the l and xl ships to be at the vector they are currently at instead of flying to where the module is actually oriented towards.
high risk are stations and any enemy ships that have a much higher threat score than the ship or enemy ships with the "fighter" tag compared to the ship with the "mine" or "trader" tag.
I'm not sure if this qualifies as a bug related to this mod or just X4's base bugs tbh, but I've noticed when I am in control of the lead ship in a fleet If I get up from the seat, and and come back to it some of the ships don't want to move into formation or move at all until I issue the entire fleet a manual move order then remove it and it fixes it... Very odd but it's easy to work around though, mostly just strange tbh... Has anyone else had this happen and is there a more permanent fix?
Updates ======= v7.5.11, 26 Apr 2025: - Bug-fix: Compatibility with Scouts feature of the NPC Reactions mod. Kuda was making scouts ignore their Do Not Engage order settings. - Tweak: XS (except drones), S and M ships: The ship's "Attack when more than this turret count" settings are now used to determine whether they should take a risk or not. Previously, the settings were used to determine high-risk enemies. (The difference between the two is subtle, but they are different in-code.) Note that ships with missiles and torpedoes are still exempt from this restriction. - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: in some circumstances, were still using the Move To Engage behaviour against ship targets. They shouldn't.
to start, thank you for an awesome mod. with that said, there are a few questions i have. first, is there any way to restrict the avoid high risk targets to only large ships? i have a bunch of fighters and they keep running away from a single queens guard. i like that behavior because i stops them from suiciding into a xenon I, but it is proving almost more trouble than its worth. to tag onto that, i have a squadron of torpedo bombers that will refuse to do runs on capital ships because of this behavior. if there was maybe a way to disable it for certian ships? i dont want to disable it but it is getting on my nerves. a final kind of side question, does VRO at all interfere with this? i havent seen anything about it but i saw you ask someone if they used VRO below.
You have several methods to control what the ship does.
There are settings in the Extension Options menu (which requires both Mod Support APIs mod and UI Extensions mod) which can modify the ship's behaviours.
Then, there are custom right-click Interact Menus (which requires both Mod Support APIs mod and UI Extensions mod) that can set each ship's individual preference of using Avoid, Step Forward, Withdraw behaviours.
Also ... all ships with torpedoes and missiles shouldn't be avoiding any target. They are exempt from the Avoid behaviour until their shields are lowered. Read the recent comments from hellmindnexus. His experience (an exact opposite to yours) is that ALL strike craft attacks anything - including Destroyers.
Other players use this mod with VRO. I don't.
NOTE: The AI changes themselves do not require Mod Support APIs mod nor UI Extensions mod. That is why I've not made them requirements for this mod.
1st, thanks a lot for all of your mods. im kind of new playing x4 and I have a question, here is the scenario: I have some (8) fighters in a fleet, I send their commander to defend an area (25kms) near an gate because the Xenon are starting to come, they perform nice against Xenon raiding party ships that enter their designated defend area, then a Xenon K destroyer appears and my ships dont flee, they keep attacking the big Xenon destroyer and get obliterated. I want them to flee and never engage in combat against the destroyer, even when they have the "avoid high risk enemies" command activated.... What should be the correct settings on your mod for this to work??
The "XS, S, and M ships attack when more than this turret count" settings in the Extension Options (which requires Mod Support APIs mod and UI Extensions mod) should control what they actually attack.
Note that the mod doesn't/shouldn't initiate the attack commands. Its the ship's orders (e.g. Escort, Patrol, Protect, etc.) that gives them the attack orders.
And when the ships do get the attack order, but they stay within that attack behaviour but acquire the "avoid" stance. Those settings do not make them NOT get the attack behaviour. Those settings put them simply put them in the "avoid" stance.
What this means is that the ships stay engaged until the base-game AI applies the Flee behaviour. What this means is that the ships are NOT scouts that NEVER engage enemies. I have another mod, NPC Reactions (NPCR) that adds a "Do Not Engage" option to the Escort, Explore, Patrol, Protect orders that makes ships actual scouts. But that is a little buggy as the current version of that feature in NPCR and Kuda are "conflicting" with each other - preventing NPCR from applying the scout behaviour on ships. Coincidentally enough, I was fixing NPC just this last couple of days. I'll have updates out for both mods tomorrow or the next day.
Updates ======= v7.5.101, 18 Apr 2025: - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: Ships not moving towards their targets: Module targets that have been disabled but not destroyed were preventing ships from performing the Move To Engage and Step Forward behaviours because those modules became wrecks and were no longer classed as station modules. - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Move To Engage behaviour was not moving the ships away from stations when moving between targets when they had to. - Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Step Forward behaviour was moving the ships up (or down) the vertical plane at every "step". The vertical adjustment to their position is suppose to only determine their vertical position at the start of the their attack. - Bug-fix: All ships: The Avoid behaviour was interrupted when avoiding a high-risk enemy on the way to the ship's actual target causing the ship to alternate between the Avoid behaviour and an attack behaviour which immediately was cancelled for the Avoid behaviour to continue.
Hi ! First of all, thank you for the work on this. Amazing stuff. Have followed for a while, and will try now finally on my playthrough.
Regarding Pilot Skill and Morale: - Pilot Skill : working like you have today makes sense, low skill means lower ability to assess threats, in this case. - Pilot Morale : I have a suggestion here. Rather than using it to same effect as the skill, I would rather make it so that with low morale, a pilot have a high chance to receive a "flee" order (like the existing ones from pirate harassment etc). Of course it would be gradual, and the idea here is that very low morale pilots might get flee orders almost every minute for example, severaly disrupting their engagement. Best to withdraw them or switch them with fresh pilots if possible (for example standing by on a supply ship or construction ship etc.)
I actually made a long while ago a mod (disappeared from nexus somehow) called "pep talk" that allowed to speak to captains on ships and deliver a morale boosting speech, that would even spread to subordinates of said captain. I can imagine this working as another way to replenish morale during a battle where pilots are starting to get edgy. If I manage to find and adapt that...
I rarely make Kuda initiate the Flee order as I prioritise using the Avoid and Withdraw behaviours first. I can't remember when Kuda actually initiates the Flee order. But Kuda does give back that determination to the base game AI when Kuda releases its control of the ship. E.g. when near death, the base-game AI can determine to make the ship flee or continue their attack.
But your suggested use of the Morale skill gives Kuda an "in" to initiating the Flee order.
Cheers! Actually found the mod, tested and it seems to work even now... I had ideas to expand it a little, like diminishing returns or cooldowns etc. I'd need to fully relearn how to mod this game though, so let's see. I might give it a go soon.
Regarding morale, I haven't looked deeply in the mechanics of it but I can imagine pilots getting hit, especially on hull, would gragually lose morale (perhaps as well with elapsed time in combat... as in mental fatigue). So having a way to boost a bit morale, even if temporarily, during a big battle, would be an engaging mechanic. But it should not force the player to be present in each battle either, it seems impractical, and potentially more micro management. So I am not sure yet how this could be balanced properly.
Anyways that was off-topic haha. Good continuation on KUDA AI, looking forward to it maturing even more.
864 comments
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v7.5.12, 5 May 2025:
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: were having problems moving towards their module target that is positioned at their stations' 0,0,0 origin. Examples of these types of stations are the Xenon asteroid base stations - and maybe the Khaak hives also. But I've not tested this against Khaak hives. In this version, the module target's orientation and size is taken into account in determing the attack vector for them.
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Move To Engage position were adding the number of times the ship Withdrew to its distance that causes the Move To Engage position to be very far from the station. In this version, the number of times the ship Withdrew is reset when they use the Step Forward behaviour.
- Bug-fix: All ships: The Avoid behaviour was sometimes losing its destination data causing it to get stuck "avoiding" the obstacle instead of continuing towards its destination when the obstacle is no longer "in its way".
but they should stay on that target.
can you take a screenshot of the station layout on the map, so that i can see what is happening, please?
set them all to attack, and let them do their thing. don't re-issue the command.
i was interested to see what they were gonna do at the 1:24-mark, but you switched your view to first-person view.
can you capture another video for me, please?
here's my video from this afternoon.
it's an hour-long attack on a station that is sped up to 3 min.
(https://youtu.be/54c18p97GXw)
At 2:17 you see the ship crawling forward and as soon as it has a position it goes back and repositions? Looks broken.
it needs to be updated for the newer version of x4.
EDIT: I checked and had another chilimaticas mod - roaming fleet. This caused the problem. Thx!
his nexus version was fixed.
but i noticed that he's not updated any of his mods on nexus for 7.5.
best to stay clear from them.
I currently only have Cradle of Humanity, I have an Asgard and two Syns trying to attack (a simple right-click attack command, Asgard is leader, Syns set to Attack group) a KHK hive, they fly up to and annihalate two defense structures further from the hive just fine, the second they get the attack command on the defense structures near the hive, all three destroyers end up in an 'Avoid High-Risk Enemy' loop, going back and forth, never engaging. They get too scared to engage, despite how tanky they are and how quickly they took out the other defenses.
I have Avoid High-Risk Enemies disabled in the extensions options, and disabled on the ships via the right-click menu, I can also see under the attack order that the Avoid risk checkbox is unchecked.
The ships ability to stop early, coast into range and shoot at stations work way better than Vanilla, but they refuse to commit on the Hive.
Do I need do get the DLC's? Or is this the result of a bug?
moving this to bugs.
Not sure if 'high risk' means just stations, or it's supposed to include Capital ships or how this all exactly works. It all did make for interesting behavior by my fighter swarms during station sieges. Hardly any complaints about this mod, probably more against the game engine as to ship behavior inherit in the game. But I did 'only notice this mod choice effects last evening while setting up fleet behavior after reorganizing my fleets after the fact. Hence my post here from what I observed. =^^=
i have a new version coming this week to address the ship's behaviour against stations with modules that are all at 0,0,0 - e.g. xenon asteroid stations (and possibly khaak hives - but i'm not sure because i've not tested this new version against khaak hives). anyway, l and xl ships against these type of stations may become "dumb" very late in battle because they can't determine the vector of their next module target as the module is at 0,0,0 - leaving the l and xl ships to be at the vector they are currently at instead of flying to where the module is actually oriented towards.
high risk are stations and any enemy ships that have a much higher threat score than the ship or enemy ships with the "fighter" tag compared to the ship with the "mine" or "trader" tag.
but i'll need to check whether kuda resets the formation you choose for your fleet.
moving to bugs.
=======
v7.5.11, 26 Apr 2025:
- Bug-fix: Compatibility with Scouts feature of the NPC Reactions mod. Kuda was making scouts ignore their Do Not Engage order settings.
- Tweak: XS (except drones), S and M ships: The ship's "Attack when more than this turret count" settings are now used to determine whether they should take a risk or not. Previously, the settings were used to determine high-risk enemies. (The difference between the two is subtle, but they are different in-code.) Note that ships with missiles and torpedoes are still exempt from this restriction.
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: in some circumstances, were still using the Move To Engage behaviour against ship targets. They shouldn't.
There are settings in the Extension Options menu (which requires both Mod Support APIs mod and UI Extensions mod) which can modify the ship's behaviours.
Then, there are custom right-click Interact Menus (which requires both Mod Support APIs mod and UI Extensions mod) that can set each ship's individual preference of using Avoid, Step Forward, Withdraw behaviours.
Also ... all ships with torpedoes and missiles shouldn't be avoiding any target. They are exempt from the Avoid behaviour until their shields are lowered. Read the recent comments from hellmindnexus. His experience (an exact opposite to yours) is that ALL strike craft attacks anything - including Destroyers.
Other players use this mod with VRO. I don't.
NOTE: The AI changes themselves do not require Mod Support APIs mod nor UI Extensions mod. That is why I've not made them requirements for this mod.
I have some (8) fighters in a fleet, I send their commander to defend an area (25kms) near an gate because the Xenon are starting to come, they perform nice against Xenon raiding party ships that enter their designated defend area, then a Xenon K destroyer appears and my ships dont flee, they keep attacking the big Xenon destroyer and get obliterated. I want them to flee and never engage in combat against the destroyer, even when they have the "avoid high risk enemies" command activated.... What should be the correct settings on your mod for this to work??
Note that the mod doesn't/shouldn't initiate the attack commands. Its the ship's orders (e.g. Escort, Patrol, Protect, etc.) that gives them the attack orders.
And when the ships do get the attack order, but they stay within that attack behaviour but acquire the "avoid" stance. Those settings do not make them NOT get the attack behaviour. Those settings put them simply put them in the "avoid" stance.
What this means is that the ships stay engaged until the base-game AI applies the Flee behaviour. What this means is that the ships are NOT scouts that NEVER engage enemies. I have another mod, NPC Reactions (NPCR) that adds a "Do Not Engage" option to the Escort, Explore, Patrol, Protect orders that makes ships actual scouts. But that is a little buggy as the current version of that feature in NPCR and Kuda are "conflicting" with each other - preventing NPCR from applying the scout behaviour on ships. Coincidentally enough, I was fixing NPC just this last couple of days. I'll have updates out for both mods tomorrow or the next day.
=======
v7.5.101, 18 Apr 2025:
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: Ships not moving towards their targets: Module targets that have been disabled but not destroyed were preventing ships from performing the Move To Engage and Step Forward behaviours because those modules became wrecks and were no longer classed as station modules.
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Move To Engage behaviour was not moving the ships away from stations when moving between targets when they had to.
- Bug-fix: L and XL ships: The Step Forward behaviour was moving the ships up (or down) the vertical plane at every "step". The vertical adjustment to their position is suppose to only determine their vertical position at the start of the their attack.
- Bug-fix: All ships: The Avoid behaviour was interrupted when avoiding a high-risk enemy on the way to the ship's actual target causing the ship to alternate between the Avoid behaviour and an attack behaviour which immediately was cancelled for the Avoid behaviour to continue.
Regarding Pilot Skill and Morale:
- Pilot Skill : working like you have today makes sense, low skill means lower ability to assess threats, in this case.
- Pilot Morale : I have a suggestion here. Rather than using it to same effect as the skill, I would rather make it so that with low morale, a pilot have a high chance to receive a "flee" order (like the existing ones from pirate harassment etc). Of course it would be gradual, and the idea here is that very low morale pilots might get flee orders almost every minute for example, severaly disrupting their engagement. Best to withdraw them or switch them with fresh pilots if possible (for example standing by on a supply ship or construction ship etc.)
I actually made a long while ago a mod (disappeared from nexus somehow) called "pep talk" that allowed to speak to captains on ships and deliver a morale boosting speech, that would even spread to subordinates of said captain. I can imagine this working as another way to replenish morale during a battle where pilots are starting to get edgy. If I manage to find and adapt that...
I rarely make Kuda initiate the Flee order as I prioritise using the Avoid and Withdraw behaviours first.
I can't remember when Kuda actually initiates the Flee order.
But Kuda does give back that determination to the base game AI when Kuda releases its control of the ship. E.g. when near death, the base-game AI can determine to make the ship flee or continue their attack.
But your suggested use of the Morale skill gives Kuda an "in" to initiating the Flee order.
I remember that pep talk mod.
Actually found the mod, tested and it seems to work even now...
I had ideas to expand it a little, like diminishing returns or cooldowns etc. I'd need to fully relearn how to mod this game though, so let's see. I might give it a go soon.
Regarding morale, I haven't looked deeply in the mechanics of it but I can imagine pilots getting hit, especially on hull, would gragually lose morale (perhaps as well with elapsed time in combat... as in mental fatigue). So having a way to boost a bit morale, even if temporarily, during a big battle, would be an engaging mechanic. But it should not force the player to be present in each battle either, it seems impractical, and potentially more micro management. So I am not sure yet how this could be balanced properly.
Anyways that was off-topic haha. Good continuation on KUDA AI, looking forward to it maturing even more.