While I appreciate that this mod has level scaling for melee and unarmed, that's largely a problem because neither of those has much in the way of serious implementation to start with - unarmed should let me throw an NPC at another one or something with some hypothetical skill, and instead here we are with level scaling to make up for Bethesda's failure.
I'm dissatisfied with level scaling as a general concept because if everything level scales than level scaling just cancels out into meaninglessness. Level is something Bethesda is abusing, as a shortcut for things that should have been explained by skills like dodging / evasion / weapon finesse and gear tiers and this like. The prime example of level scaling making no sense is level scaling a land mine. At higher level I'd just chuck out 5 of them, not mutter incantations over a mine in some meditative hatori state to make it explode differently.
I don't mind level filling in some improvement where the player is actively controlling something, but I'd have it be much slower than a skill gain would be. I'd like a skill jump percentage to be more than say, any similar improvement by adding 10 player levels (or more), so that skills stay important.
But Bethesda left us where we are, with gear tiers that plateau and enemies that don't get smarter or gain skills at *their* higher NPC levels, so there isn't much else to do. There's nothing in the game that explains why my character can take a survive a hard target shot to the chest at point blank range from behind - that resistance should have required armor, skills (evasion), and forethought (guard your back), not be a side effect of building thousands of widgets (or aurora) in a factory somewhere. In a magic-based game, the excuse might be that a player's level is the result of exposure to magic while adventuring or something, but a good tech & skill game shouldn't need levels at all.
But with levels, there's that core question of how should the game feel as players and NPCs level up, whether it should seem:
* harder - ideally because NPCs are smarter, use more skills, etc, but more pessimistically they just do more damage and are bullet sponges * the same - although personally I'd rather be able to alternate at will between stark challenge and being a demigod * easier - some players like being a run-amok god at higher level, of course
And the answer is to let the area level in the game figure into things. This means that a high level player in a minimum level area should be a powerhouse, and in max level areas should always struggle. In other words, my suggestion is to consider:
What if the max-level worlds were harder for the levelled-up player, while lower-level planets scaled up proportionately less (or none, for level 1)?
I'm at level 144 right now, and I can basically flatten everything if I'm playing without one of my restrictions active (no armor / vendors / helmet / guns, or only cutter / blade / unarmed, etc), even without this mod. I'd rather see, say, level 60-ish worlds keep pace with my growth, but level 75 worlds get harder by scaling faster than I do, and the NPCs on those worlds (or in those max-level ships) actually use more skills and have improved AI. I don't want to be on a level 1 planet and find mysterious new level 90 NPCs just because I'm higher level unless they're assassins looking for me in particular.
I know this mod isn't about scaling by planet and ship levels, and maybe in this context all this boils down to is, by the gods, don't apply leveling to land mines. but here are things I'd appreciate if they align with your objectives already:
* don't apply levelling to land mines. (At least grenades there's some argument that the player is targeting them better) * provide some single, configurable, overall number to scale the effect of the mod (where 1 is the default) * a way to independently scale unarmed/melee damage, that overrides the bullet above if set, since Bethesda face-planted on those
If you do like the by-area scaling idea, what about multiplying that overall scaler above by some function of area and player level?
There are several other versions of the mod available if you don't like mine scaling. But mines become useless pretty quick without any scaling. The mod contains a framework so if you'd like to implement some crazy scaling system by area then DIY. Considering how many planets there is in the game you've got your work cut out for you.
Any dmg scaling is stupid i think. I mean if 3 year old takes ak47 and pulls a triger dmg will be the same coming out of that ak47 as if grown up would do the same. Also heath should not be scaled with lvl. All skills should do is give better weapon control, traning to use diferent weapons (heavy weapons, laser, particle etc.), hold breath little longer, less sway when aming and things like that. For melee teach new killmoves or something. Unarmed would allow you to actually hit the punch where you aiming, I mean untrained people are usually useless is fight compared to trained fighter.
Exactly. I blame Bethesda. What you have here definitely fills in a lack of a sort in what they released.
That being said, landmines are great alarms, even at low damage, and some of them have other effects than damage. Of course, if Bethesda had done the right thing, we'd be able to buy or make higher tiers of land mines. Grr.
Yes, it would be easy. You'd just create similar perk entry points as the ones I've made except you specify those item types instead. You can even specify individual items if you only want e.g. the Mantis armor set to scale and not any others. Anyone who knows their way around xEdit and perk entry points can do it.
yes, it does work and stack. Perhaps if you can upgrade melee weapons to give them a lot more damage then you might not need the melee weapon damage scaling from this mod as well, in which case you can choose the No Melee version.
It does stack nicesly with craftable quality mod. And it doesn't make me too immune. Combat is still pretty dangerous with the aggressive leveled NPCs and improved combat AI and also having them deal more damage. Your mod + craftable quality just makes it survivable lol
Not without dynamic patchers like SPID which we probably won't see for a while. But enemies already have their own scaling system and there are plenty of mods aiming to tweak enemies.
Note that if enemies had the same grenade scaling then you'd die seemingly out of nowhere on higher difficulties.
Question, does the mod not increase the energy damage portion of the grenades? It's showing the particle grenade as doing like 814 physical damage, but only 60 energy damage (which is the vanilla value). By comparison frag grenades are showing at 993 damage, which shouldn't be right considering the total vanilla damage of the particle grenade is higher (61 physical, 60 energy) than frags (101 physical). I do have Rank 4 Demolitions unlocked, but it's definitely calculating something weirdly since 993 is higher than what you should be getting even with 101*6*1.5 (= 909). (possibly a magazine perk, I have them all but I can't recall if there was one that buffed explosion damage).
I was pretty sure I had already tested it, and yeah, particle grenades do more damage than frag grenades despite what it says on the tooltip. It appears that the tooltip just doesn't reflect it properly.
I've tried in every way to make the energy damage on the tooltip display the damage that it actually deals, but it's not possible. The Demolitions perk has the same issue where the energy damage on the particle grenade tooltip doesn't go up, but it does in fact deal more energy damage.
Burn damage is based off the target's max HP, so it does not need to be buffed and I don't think you could buff it either. Only the minor damage from the initial explosion gets buffed. The same goes for the cryo mines and poison mines.
Strange issue. I can see the damage values in the menu being increased, but the actual damage I do to myself and NPCs is still the same as vanilla. I'm level 121 and haven't leveled up since I installed the mod yet. Does that need to happen?
No, that's not needed. If the damage values are going up in the menu then the actual damage is going up as well, can't have one without the other. Idk, maybe try reequipping your grenades? Did you actually compare the damage from before you installed the mod? If you're on NG+10 and have other difficulty modifiers then enemies will have over 50% damage resistance which perhaps could trick you into thinking that you're seeing vanilla damage numbers, but it should still be easy to tell.
I'm on NG+ 10, but I play at normal difficulty and have no other mods doing anything about difficulty.
I'm 100% sure that they are only actually doing vanilla damage. The damage for an impact grenade was showing 600+ in the menu, but when thrown directly at my feet, I was only damaged about 120 points. Same when hitting an NPC (verified with getav health). Similarly, when hitting NPCs with melee or fists, there is no difference between the damage numbers shown on screen with each hit, with or without the mod.
Strange issue indeed. It is certainly working on my installation. It modifies damage in the same way as the vanilla Boxing and Demolitions skills do, and at level 100+ it doesn't even use the scaling, at that point it's just a plain old 6x damage multiplier. The fact that the damage numbers in the menu go up means that it does get loaded for you. Do those vanilla skills not work for you either?
Indeed... I just dumped another point into Demolitions. Same damage as before there too.
Do you happen to know which AVs I should check on my character to see the damage multiplier for grenades, melee, and unarmed? Wouldn't surprise me if they are some funky negative values. Had an issue with my ship's shield strength AV being -12 or something, which acted like a permanent multiplier of 1.0.
It's not an AV at all, perk entry points just check the specified conditions and apply its effects independently of anything else. AVs like One-handed Damage in Skyrim work because there's a perk entry point that checks your One-handed Damage and multiplies your damage accordingly, it's what sets up AVs so that they work in the first place. It works at the lowest level, nothing stands between it and the engine. There's basically no way that it could bug out, the fact that the tooltip damage goes up means that it's telling the engine to do the thing and the engine accepts it as the final result that should be applied but it doesn't actually do it. Which is why it's so strange.
Well I can verify it works correctly in a new NG+ at least. Todd cursed blessed my current universe with some busted stuff I guess lol
It's far from the only issue this save has developed though, and some have been going on since long before I used any mods. I'll keep this mod in mind for a future playthrough though. Thank you.
Just to follow up on this, I have discovered one cause of the issue I was having. The av "MeleeDamage" was set to 0. Setting this to 1 fixed not only this mod, but perks not applying additional damage either. Seems like this value only ever needs to be 1, and the game does stuff with it from there.
I'm not sure if there is an equivalent av for explosive damage, but there might be.
Also, that av gets reset to 0 after every ng+ jump, meaning I have to manually fix it each time for melee weapons to scale.
Odd. I don't have that bug, you'd think it'd apply to everyone.
MeleeDamage is a leftover AV from previous games. It used to add flat melee damage but it seems it's been changed to a multiplier due to an engine change, just like most other AVs. There isn't any old AV for explosion damage as far as I can recall.
loving this so much - im level 108 and havnt gone through unity yet -- doing 900 dam with a grenade makes them usable again.
it may not belong in this mod but asking anyhow ---- can grenades/rockets/ basically explosions be caused to auto stagger enemies? maybe a chance to knock them prone... but 100% stagger. it gives a reason to throw a grenade around a corner to throw off their aim. would go reeallllly well with the PEAK combat mod where the enemy plays smart.
will also help remove the immersion breaking when they pretend like a grenade explosion didn't happen if it didn't kill them.
How would I go about adding in all the weapon types to the 1% increase? Tried looking at it in xEdit, and honestly I'm confused as hell with this. I can barely make heads or tails of it, and can't figure out how to add additional conditions to specify more keywords for weapons (was just gonna add in more keywords into the melee section, one for each weapon type)
I'm trying that mod myself. The mod works fine up to level 100, but past that point it begins to fall apart. All enemies past level 100 have the same amount of health, there's no difference between a level 100 Spacer Punk and a level 200 Spacer Myth. All enemies eventually end up completely homogenized and the level range becomes pointless. Adding an additional +100% damage scaling for all weapons would defeat the point of using that mod in the first place. Everything would die in one shot with that scaling if you don't do NG+. It would make more sense to remove the 50% damage resistance that enemies have on NG+10.
I was using Dynamic Scaling, which did a very good job of keeping enemies at your level, but had a bad habit of turning way too many of them legendary. Plus the Mk 5 type enemies just had *way* too much health xD
I was wanting to try and give the damage boost to all weapons because a) wanted to try and see if I could work xEdit... Answer was no :P In the CK I'm sure I could have done it in like 5 mins, but I was lost in that thing :P b) because it would let me use less powerful weapons that I like the look of more, because they'd actually increase in damage enough to still maybe be useful c) would let me still make use of weapons I hadn't picked the perk for yet :P
Well, the simplest way to accomplish what you want would be to delete the conditions for melee weapons, that way it applies to everything. Otherwise you could right click the top of the conditions tab above the melee conditions but below the GetLevel condition, and add a condition for each keyword. You can drag and drop the melee conditions on top of the new conditions you add and then just change the keyword, that would be fastest. All the keyword conditions would need to use the Equal To / Or operators.
I swear I tried clicking everywhere and didn't manage to find any way to add another condition, I must have managed to click everywhere but the one place I needed xD
Much appreciated for the help, will see if I can make it work :)
Oh, just had a thought, doing it by removing the melee conditions won't cause it to also stack up and/or replace the unarmed/explosion/critcal ones, will it?
Removing the keywords will let it multiply the other damages for a total of 12x damage. Except grenade damage. Also, you need to modify the crit damage scaling at the bottom as well.
72 comments
I'm dissatisfied with level scaling as a general concept because if everything level scales than level scaling just cancels out into meaninglessness. Level is something Bethesda is abusing, as a shortcut for things that should have been explained by skills like dodging / evasion / weapon finesse and gear tiers and this like. The prime example of level scaling making no sense is level scaling a land mine. At higher level I'd just chuck out 5 of them, not mutter incantations over a mine in some meditative hatori state to make it explode differently.
I don't mind level filling in some improvement where the player is actively controlling something, but I'd have it be much slower than a skill gain would be. I'd like a skill jump percentage to be more than say, any similar improvement by adding 10 player levels (or more), so that skills stay important.
But Bethesda left us where we are, with gear tiers that plateau and enemies that don't get smarter or gain skills at *their* higher NPC levels, so
there isn't much else to do. There's nothing in the game that explains why my character can take a survive a hard target shot to the chest at
point blank range from behind - that resistance should have required armor, skills (evasion), and forethought (guard your back), not be a
side effect of building thousands of widgets (or aurora) in a factory somewhere. In a magic-based game, the excuse might be that a player's
level is the result of exposure to magic while adventuring or something, but a good tech & skill game shouldn't need levels at all.
But with levels, there's that core question of how should the game feel as players and NPCs level up, whether it should seem:
* harder - ideally because NPCs are smarter, use more skills, etc, but
more pessimistically they just do more damage and are bullet sponges
* the same - although personally I'd rather be able to alternate at will between stark challenge and being a demigod
* easier - some players like being a run-amok god at higher level, of course
And the answer is to let the area level in the game figure into things. This means that a high level player in a minimum level area should be a powerhouse, and in max level areas should always struggle. In other words, my suggestion is to consider:
What if the max-level worlds were harder for the levelled-up player, while lower-level planets scaled up proportionately less (or none, for level 1)?
I'm at level 144 right now, and I can basically flatten everything if I'm playing without one of my restrictions active (no armor / vendors / helmet / guns, or only cutter / blade / unarmed, etc), even without this mod. I'd rather see, say, level 60-ish worlds keep pace with my growth, but level 75 worlds get harder by scaling faster than I do, and the NPCs on those worlds (or in those max-level ships) actually use more skills and have improved AI. I don't want to be on a level 1 planet and find mysterious new level 90 NPCs just because I'm higher level unless they're assassins looking for me in particular.
I know this mod isn't about scaling by planet and ship levels, and maybe in this context all this boils down to is, by the gods, don't apply leveling to land mines. but here are things I'd appreciate if they align with your objectives already:
* don't apply levelling to land mines. (At least grenades there's some argument that the player is targeting them better)
* provide some single, configurable, overall number to scale the effect of the mod (where 1 is the default)
* a way to independently scale unarmed/melee damage, that overrides the bullet above if set, since Bethesda face-planted on those
If you do like the by-area scaling idea, what about multiplying that overall scaler above by some function of area and player level?
That being said, landmines are great alarms, even at low damage, and some of them have other effects than damage. Of course, if Bethesda had done the right thing, we'd be able to buy or make higher tiers of land mines. Grr.
I find it frustrating that not even unique armor and weapons scale with the characters level and are rendered useless after i level up a few times...
Is there a way to apply the same to enemies?
Note that if enemies had the same grenade scaling then you'd die seemingly out of nowhere on higher difficulties.
Regarding particle grenades, I'll look into it.
I've tried in every way to make the energy damage on the tooltip display the damage that it actually deals, but it's not possible. The Demolitions perk has the same issue where the energy damage on the particle grenade tooltip doesn't go up, but it does in fact deal more energy damage.
I've got one from an enemy and saw that it has low damage.
I'm 100% sure that they are only actually doing vanilla damage. The damage for an impact grenade was showing 600+ in the menu, but when thrown directly at my feet, I was only damaged about 120 points. Same when hitting an NPC (verified with getav health). Similarly, when hitting NPCs with melee or fists, there is no difference between the damage numbers shown on screen with each hit, with or without the mod.
Strange issue.
Do you happen to know which AVs I should check on my character to see the damage multiplier for grenades, melee, and unarmed? Wouldn't surprise me if they are some funky negative values. Had an issue with my ship's shield strength AV being -12 or something, which acted like a permanent multiplier of 1.0.
cursedblessed my current universe with some busted stuff I guess lolIt's far from the only issue this save has developed though, and some have been going on since long before I used any mods. I'll keep this mod in mind for a future playthrough though. Thank you.
I'm not sure if there is an equivalent av for explosive damage, but there might be.
Also, that av gets reset to 0 after every ng+ jump, meaning I have to manually fix it each time for melee weapons to scale.
MeleeDamage is a leftover AV from previous games. It used to add flat melee damage but it seems it's been changed to a multiplier due to an engine change, just like most other AVs. There isn't any old AV for explosion damage as far as I can recall.
it may not belong in this mod but asking anyhow ---- can grenades/rockets/ basically explosions be caused to auto stagger enemies? maybe a chance to knock them prone... but 100% stagger. it gives a reason to throw a grenade around a corner to throw off their aim. would go reeallllly well with the PEAK combat mod where the enemy plays smart.
will also help remove the immersion breaking when they pretend like a grenade explosion didn't happen if it didn't kill them.
Adding an additional +100% damage scaling for all weapons would defeat the point of using that mod in the first place. Everything would die in one shot with that scaling if you don't do NG+. It would make more sense to remove the 50% damage resistance that enemies have on NG+10.
I was wanting to try and give the damage boost to all weapons because
a) wanted to try and see if I could work xEdit... Answer was no :P In the CK I'm sure I could have done it in like 5 mins, but I was lost in that thing :P
b) because it would let me use less powerful weapons that I like the look of more, because they'd actually increase in damage enough to still maybe be useful
c) would let me still make use of weapons I hadn't picked the perk for yet :P
Much appreciated for the help, will see if I can make it work :)