Hey @CLShortFuse, what are your feelings on other people using the tool you made for this project (LUTPatcher) to normalize customized LUTs as part of making brand new LUT mods? E.g. do their own edits then use LUTPatcher to normalize as the final step. Tool credit given of course.
It isn't provided on this page (and I am unsure how mod permissions would apply to using a tool), and GitHub has it unlicensed so I wanted to make sure to ask you about it. I really want to try making a LUT mod or two but I don't know how to de-haze anywhere near as good as you have done!
I love this mod. I have tried all kinds of LUT mods and this one gives a perfect atmosphere. However, I am experiencing mad FPS drops every now and then like in Akila City, especially at night. Do you have any idea why? Other LUT mods don't give a 20fps drop in the same area. I want to use this mod but the drops are killing me.
There's 0 relation to LUTs. They're just textures. There's no way one set of colors can perform any different than another set. There's no processing. It's a 256x16 texture. If you said vanilla works differently, then maybe it's the fact it's load from the disk that could cause a difference. But if you're comparing mods, then they all access the drive. LUTs are REALLY tiny and regardless, they are all the same size.
The only possible thing is I use the original Bethesda texture format, same as vanilla, and others use something else. But LUTs are just 256x16 and it wouldn't make any measurable different.
That's what I thought, there shouldn't be any FPS drops which is weird. Maybe I can try and make a video and send it directly to you. So I know I'm not going crazy.
I don't personally use any. I know people use one to darken the night sky, but it's actually the film grain that causes raised blacks. Once you disable that (or use a mod with a different film grain), then the grayness in the sky and caves goes away.
I've never posted a comment on Nexus before but had to here. You're doing fantastic work with this mod, It's the best LUT by a million miles and I've been recommending it on forums to anyone who'll listen.
Keep up the good work! v.2.0.0 is looking great. My only request is that in all the tweaks you're doing never forget that it's vital to keep the dynamic range as great as possible for HDR. Don't start clipping blacks and highlights.
My current question is regarding the black levels. Some locations and interior spaces have completely crushed blacks in the shadows, that far as I can tell is just part of the game engine. It looks like this with no LUTS or mods (except the grey haze kind of disguises it, but not really). I'm guessing a LUT mod can do nothing about this? I've tried tweaking with various reshade settings to experiment and there's no detail in there to bring back, just fully crushed black....
First of all, welcome and thanks for providing feedback!
Not all the files are modified. If the file already had 0% black and 100%, then it's already full range (can't be normalized). All the files I've included are the adjusted ones. Excluding QC and photomode, there are 222 lut files total. I only include 194.
In the entire package there is literally one *newly* crushed pixel and it's in the Mars Exterior LUT. Here's the original LUT:
You're unlikely to spot it but it's, the very first 16th of blue gradient is rgb(1,1,1) and it gets crushed to black. The rest of the gradient is (0,0,0), but that one pixel was rgb(1,1,1). In the normalization process, the only allowed black point (crush) is the real black point at (0,0,0).
With clipping, it doesn't change the pixel if it would result in clipping. It'll just keep the original color in the LUT.
But as you said, that doesn't mean the original file doesn't crush or clip. For example, this is the one of the luts that was fixed for raised blacks:
It's already clipped. That's why, out of 4096 pixels, only 2818 were corrected. There's no data left to tweak.
There are LUTs that are full-range though crushedthat are completely untouched: (`colorlutnewatlantis21.dds`):
But you shouldn't really be seeing crushed blacks on any of the v2.0 LUTs. But some monitors really struggle to bring out values between 0% and something like 3%. I have some calibration links in the first page that helped me fix my SDR display which was really bad a crushing blacks. My OLED is fine, but that's to be expected.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply fella, much appreciated (though some of it is going over my head now a bit :-)
Regarding crushed blacks whilst in the actual game again - I am definitely seeing them in some locations - the first external Mars area in the story, and various interior locations that are in shadow. And this is whether with your LUTS or just the default game. I'm using an OLED monitor too and it's calibrated in the Windows 11 HDR calibration app from 0% up to its maximum nit brightness, so it should all be good.
I only play in HDR by the way. I've done various tests like the lagom website black level tester, whilst in HDR mode, and it all looks like it should....Black level - Lagom LCD test
Looking at your shots, 2.0 seems to be similar to 1.8. I actually quite adore 1.10.1, Cydonia, New Atlantis, Homestead to name a few are quite stellar. In this you've returned a lot of neutrality to the vanilla theme, and the cinematic experience is great.
Not sure if 1.8 and 2.0 you disabled grain and/or removing even more noise, but 2.0 looks like it is showing up a lot more banding in those shots.
I haven't tested this against my HDR TV (Toshiba Z770), just my Viewsonic XG2703-GS in SDR.
The screenshots are now in SDR without any mods. That means Ersh's color banding fix isn't applied. Also, I don't know why images look worse than I uploaded them. Maybe Nexus Mods compresses to JPG?
Had a quick compare of 1.10.1 and 2.0, definitely sticking with 1.10.1. I just prefer the more neutral look of it, I am able to distinguish the colors of things without the dominant tint affecting everything in the scene (i.e reddish planet hueing everything red).
This starts a new path for the mod. I would hope this is the final version, but never say "never". Essentially Y from CIEXYZ has been ditched for OKLCH. This allows me to restore what appears to be the originally intended chroma before the haze and also keep things a bit darker without sacrificing color. All the luminance fixes should be good now and I think most of the work forward would be on color restoration. The LUT comparison will show a lot of what was lost is properly restored now, especially dark blues.
I'm also going to start taking shots in SDR, since HDR is hard to properly compare here on web shots. I learned Paint.NET (my JXR=>PNG tool) actually normalizes the brightness of JXR images before saving, throwing out proper comparison.
I also learned that my LG C1 heavily saturates dark orange where as my Pixel won't. I'm not sure what's right here, but it was a bit difficult to properly test Cydonia because of it.
I'll be working on making new screenshots of older versions as well, not just 2.0, for easy access to data if we ever need to compare.
I really feel you've nailed it with 2.0.0! The screenshots you took the time to upload really tell the story I've been seeing as well; that it strikes a near perfect balance between the higher saturation of 1.9 and the clarity of 1.10+. I had still been using 1.9 for the colors, though I do feel it was a bit TOO saturated in places. 2.0.0 has excellent color without being over the top or inaccurate while also keeping the range of detail that later versions had. Really enjoying the latest offering, thanks for sharing your work with us!
i jerk to 1.9, 2.0 looks perfect as far as "natural" goes but 1.9 should be remixed into a more "Enhanced" experienced like Neutra LUT has with more vibrant colors
Yeah, v1.9 is technically not correct, but gives you more color in dark areas. The reality is we only get 16 steps in one gradient to work with. Take Kreet for example, where I've spent hours trying to get it to look right. Bethesda uses one of those 16 steps (the black point) to throw in cyan. So the whole level looks like cyan. Cool.
But when you try to put true black at the black point, you have to put cyan somewhere where black was. But you'd be using up one of the now 15 steps left. This is why Kreet is green in v1.9. You can't stuff both cyan and yellow into one LUT point, so it turns into green (halfway between both colors).
Here's a blown up image of what that looks like:
The first column is the black pixel. Using a larger LUT file (eg:24x24) doesn't work either, so we're kinda reaching the technical limit with what can be fixed via just LUT textures. The switch to OKLCH helps because it picks colors with better visibility in dark areas. That helps boost more colors. But only 14 stops for a gradient is pretty horrible to work with.
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Join the Discord to test the new changes!
https://discord.gg/asmQbRhBmn
It isn't provided on this page (and I am unsure how mod permissions would apply to using a tool), and GitHub has it unlicensed so I wanted to make sure to ask you about it. I really want to try making a LUT mod or two but I don't know how to de-haze anywhere near as good as you have done!
Taking the output from here and modifying is a Nexus Mods thing and I don't remember the default policy.
I also have my HUD patcher public and encourage people to use it for HDR versions, because the SWF files can have 1000s of color transforms.
I know the goals of this mod don't align with everyone's perception of final improvement.
The only possible thing is I use the original Bethesda texture format, same as vanilla, and others use something else. But LUTs are just 256x16 and it wouldn't make any measurable different.
Keep up the good work! v.2.0.0 is looking great. My only request is that in all the tweaks you're doing never forget that it's vital to keep the dynamic range as great as possible for HDR. Don't start clipping blacks and highlights.
My current question is regarding the black levels. Some locations and interior spaces have completely crushed blacks in the shadows, that far as I can tell is just part of the game engine. It looks like this with no LUTS or mods (except the grey haze kind of disguises it, but not really). I'm guessing a LUT mod can do nothing about this? I've tried tweaking with various reshade settings to experiment and there's no detail in there to bring back, just fully crushed black....
Not all the files are modified. If the file already had 0% black and 100%, then it's already full range (can't be normalized). All the files I've included are the adjusted ones. Excluding QC and photomode, there are 222 lut files total. I only include 194.
In the entire package there is literally one *newly* crushed pixel and it's in the Mars Exterior LUT. Here's the original LUT:
You're unlikely to spot it but it's, the very first 16th of blue gradient is rgb(1,1,1) and it gets crushed to black. The rest of the gradient is (0,0,0), but that one pixel was rgb(1,1,1). In the normalization process, the only allowed black point (crush) is the real black point at (0,0,0).
With clipping, it doesn't change the pixel if it would result in clipping. It'll just keep the original color in the LUT.
But as you said, that doesn't mean the original file doesn't crush or clip. For example, this is the one of the luts that was fixed for raised blacks:
It's already clipped. That's why, out of 4096 pixels, only 2818 were corrected. There's no data left to tweak.
There are LUTs that are full-range though crushedthat are completely untouched: (`colorlutnewatlantis21.dds`):
But you shouldn't really be seeing crushed blacks on any of the v2.0 LUTs. But some monitors really struggle to bring out values between 0% and something like 3%. I have some calibration links in the first page that helped me fix my SDR display which was really bad a crushing blacks. My OLED is fine, but that's to be expected.
Regarding crushed blacks whilst in the actual game again - I am definitely seeing them in some locations - the first external Mars area in the story, and various interior locations that are in shadow. And this is whether with your LUTS or just the default game. I'm using an OLED monitor too and it's calibrated in the Windows 11 HDR calibration app from 0% up to its maximum nit brightness, so it should all be good.
I only play in HDR by the way. I've done various tests like the lagom website black level tester, whilst in HDR mode, and it all looks like it should....Black level - Lagom LCD test
Not sure if 1.8 and 2.0 you disabled grain and/or removing even more noise, but 2.0 looks like it is showing up a lot more banding in those shots.
I haven't tested this against my HDR TV (Toshiba Z770), just my Viewsonic XG2703-GS in SDR.
This starts a new path for the mod. I would hope this is the final version, but never say "never". Essentially Y from CIEXYZ has been ditched for OKLCH. This allows me to restore what appears to be the originally intended chroma before the haze and also keep things a bit darker without sacrificing color. All the luminance fixes should be good now and I think most of the work forward would be on color restoration. The LUT comparison will show a lot of what was lost is properly restored now, especially dark blues.
I'm also going to start taking shots in SDR, since HDR is hard to properly compare here on web shots. I learned Paint.NET (my JXR=>PNG tool) actually normalizes the brightness of JXR images before saving, throwing out proper comparison.
I also learned that my LG C1 heavily saturates dark orange where as my Pixel won't. I'm not sure what's right here, but it was a bit difficult to properly test Cydonia because of it.
I'll be working on making new screenshots of older versions as well, not just 2.0, for easy access to data if we ever need to compare.
But when you try to put true black at the black point, you have to put cyan somewhere where black was. But you'd be using up one of the now 15 steps left. This is why Kreet is green in v1.9. You can't stuff both cyan and yellow into one LUT point, so it turns into green (halfway between both colors).
Here's a blown up image of what that looks like:
The first column is the black pixel. Using a larger LUT file (eg:24x24) doesn't work either, so we're kinda reaching the technical limit with what can be fixed via just LUT textures. The switch to OKLCH helps because it picks colors with better visibility in dark areas. That helps boost more colors. But only 14 stops for a gradient is pretty horrible to work with.