First visit to The Dark Side since installing. Got attacked four times and barely moved away from Madame Sauvage's. One of the better mods for ambience since I started playing back in Sept 2023. Changes the Ebbside vibe to exactly what you said it was in the description. Well done, and thank you for your work.
FlippingEggs Thanks for this Mod; I'm very happy to endorse it. It makes the outside of Neon City (Ebbside) a much more challenging and atmospheric area to explore. I am happy to report that I completed a full sweep of 'Dangerous Ebbside' without any glitches whatsoever. A couple of things I noticed that struck me as odd however were: 1 Groups of Syndicate or Disciple NPCs often did not aggro as I expected. They would remain oblivious of danger as the guy standing next to them got shot. 2 In a couple of areas groups of Syndicate and Disciple NPCs and their associated loot seemed to be placed unrealistically close to each other. 3 A lot of the loot was marked as stolen (some was, some wasn't). Is this intentional of an oversight? EDIT: My experience of Ebbside suggests that the crowds usually seen there during the day disappear at night. Would it be possible to have these new groups of Syndicate or Disciple NPCs only appear at night, and when killed, respawn after a week or so? Regards
As far as #1, this was a change I made in version 1.1 to try to prevent getting mobbed by 20 enemies at once as soon as combat started. Prior to 1.1, if you engaged one group of enemies, they would instantly alert all of the other groups nearby, even if those groups couldn't see you. In the 1.1 update, I disabled their ability to alert others, so enemies are only supposed to engage you if you either shoot them, or you are in their line of sight and they see you shooting their friends. What you described about them being oblivious could be the result of line of sight and detection jank.
I made this change to try to make things more focused on small-scale fights with isolated groups of enemies, rather than turning Ebbside into an all-out war zone as soon as you fire a shot, but I can see how this could cause issues with groups that are nearby each other.
For #3, yes this is intentional, most containers are marked as owned by either the Syndicate, Disciples, or random street rats. This way, if they catch you stealing they will either attack or try to take their stuff back.
As far as respawning enemies, all are currently not set to respawn. I would have to be selective with choosing which ones were allowed to respawn, so that if crowds were active, you wouldn't have crowd NPCs just casually walking past Disciple gangsters, but it would be possible. As far as I know, the default respawn time for the entire game is 7 days
Thanks for the fulsome reply. Much appreciated. I'll be keeping this mod in my load order as a means of making Ebbside more challenging on my next playthrough. I look forward to seeing how you decide to develop this mod. Regards
installed, and can´t land in neon anymore... always crashes de-installed, everything in order again... i guess it´s not good for late game installing....
I have tested this on my own save file, which is currently at 192 hours of play time, with no crashes. Can you confirm this is loading at the top of your load order, with no light master mods loading above it?
Can confirm crashes. Also affects New Atlantis (haven't tested Akila City yet - got tired of reloading game). Mod is second in load order after Community Patch. Have many many mods running successfully, so load order is stable. Disabling it returns to normal. On PC with Game Pass. Running on my main save, NG+ 10, character level 245.
I have gone through every single line of this plugin in xEdit and I can 100% confirm it does not touch New Atlantis or any other city besides Neon. I can't replicate crashes on my current save file.
Are you using MO2? I know MO2 uses a custom Starfield.ccc file to fix the load order of base-game plugins. If you aren't using MO2, these base-game masters might be loading in the wrong order, and causing the crashes. Here is the link to the GitHub where this issue is explained.
Also, can you both confirm you are not over the mod index limit, and have not uninstalled any mods on your current saves?
Not using MO2, just loading Creations mods through in-game menu (yes it's a total pain but I still prefer it). Not sure about mod index limit (current count is 123 mods) but I think I'm only loading small masters: other than the two BGS quests and the community patch the only mods I have in my queue larger than 1mb are for clothes, weapon skins, and house decorations. I've uninstalled mods (complete delete and clean-up of leftover .ba2 files) for my save, and then made a new save to clear them out.
So, good news, New Atlantis is now fine with Dark Side loaded (who knows what was crashing that area). But Neon is still inaccessible. I can't land from orbit or fast travel to the starport there without a desktop crash.
****
Ok, as I've been writing this I've been testing and I found out what was causing the crash. Mod conflict (of course) with Street Rat Sleep Crate, which modifies the player home in ebbside and a couple of the nearby fishmonger spaces. There was also a conflict with Neon Stairs but not fatal, the stairs just disappered.
Well, I fixed all the conflicts by waiting to enable the sleep crate home and stairs until after I already had Dark Side working. But, when I save the game, quit to desktop, and load the save with those mods enabled (full save, not exit save), the game immediately crashes. I CAN load that save with Street Rat Sleep Crates disabled.
I've since tried to load sleep crates mod after the game was running by quitting to the Creations menu (as had worked before) but that only worked once and I can't manage to reproduce whatever sequence I lucked onto.
So, that seems definitive: fatal conflict with Street Rat Sleep Crates mod.
This is definitely either the mod index limit, Creations messing up your load order without telling you, or one or more of the mods you uninstalled causing issues. I downloaded the Sleep Crate creation, and loaded it at the very bottom of my load order, with this mod at the top, and was able to go to the sleep crate without crashing. I also used the Engine Fixes mod to verify I was at less than 255 mod indexes when I tested this (I was at 246).
You can use the deep scan load order feature of the Engine Fixes mod to see how far over the limit you are (load a save outside of Neon so you don't crash). If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the .txt file it outputs and the mod index number is less than 255, then you know the Creations load order is probably at fault, or an uninstalled mod has data baked into your save file that is causing issues.
Hopefully the Shattered Space update will fix all of this
I'm not using SFSE because I'm only using Creations (except when I'm making my own mods), and one of the reasons for that is because the Creations load order list is easy to save and doesn't get randomly changed (unlike my experiences with Vortex and MO2). The other reason is because I test my own mods for XBox, and consoles only have Creations, which means my load order save will work cross-platform.
I tried moving Sleep Crate to second-to-last in my list (another mod needs last place) and was able to load back into the save while in Neon Core, but as soon as I opened a door to ebbside, the game crashed. It could also be an incidental conflict caused by some combination of mods, so later I will try a different game save with only a few mods. For now I can live without the decorated crate home.
Getting your mod to work was totally worth it because I like Neon the best of all the cities and what you've added to it is really cool and fun. Thanks!
The only conflict with DangerousEbbside.esm in my load order is with SFBGS008.esm, which overwrites formID 00015FFE CityNeonLocation, including many reference settings, keywords, etc.
I wonder whether making SFBGS008.esm a master for your file to force DangerousEbbside.esm to load after it would be a very easy fix if the references, etc affected by the conflict could be the cause of at least the shared issues people have. Of course, the differences in the issues could be further affected by their individual setups. This could possibly especially help people who aren't comfortable with managing load orders, much less diving into xedit and creation kit. =)
I really enjoyed your mod and take on this quest and area! Thank you for sharing your excellent work with the community!
Correct, the mod index issue has been fixed. This thread is just a time capsule for how it was perceived by people trying to use mods at the time who weren't aware they were over the index limit: crashes that weren't caused by any one mod, but by an underlying engine issue
Is this compatible with the Neon Stairs Mod ? this mod would certainly help give Neon some of it's supposed danger. Hopefully Bethesda will add Muggings to Neon at some point, the Guards could be a bit overzealous in their reaction, causing chaos in the Neon Core.
This is compatible with Neon Stairs, but the Stairs mod has deleted references and should load below this, and probably any other mod that edits Neon. If Neon Stairs loads above another mod that edits Neon, your game might crash
need to update hostile faction relationship with the new npcs this adds and neon guards. guards dont react to these new npcs at all they don't react to these npcs chasing and shooting at me all the way to the lounge.
Were the guards not reacting to the Syndicate, or was it the Disciples?
The Disciples are supposed to be set to enemy status with security guards, but the Syndicate is not, due to lore reasons (Bayu controls both the Syndicate and security). I can see how this could be immersion breaking though so I can consider changing it
Highly recommend people use SKK Fast new game start with this. Really adds an immersive feel to neon being able to start there as a street rat. You have to be very careful in ebbside or you'll quickly get overrun by either disciples or syndicate. Ended up in a massive firefight during "The showdown" that ended up aggro'ing all the syndicate too. Really felt like a gang war. The quest is lacking in this department and this mod fixes that. Great work! looking forward to see what else you bring to this.
57 comments
EDIT: Its not this mod, I uninstalled and its still doing it. Apparently its a vanilla bug, maybe linked to the Ryujin questline. Nice one Bethesda xD
Thanks for this Mod; I'm very happy to endorse it. It makes the outside of Neon City (Ebbside) a much more challenging and atmospheric area to explore. I am happy to report that I completed a full sweep of 'Dangerous Ebbside' without any glitches whatsoever.
A couple of things I noticed that struck me as odd however were:
1 Groups of Syndicate or Disciple NPCs often did not aggro as I expected. They would remain oblivious of danger as the guy standing next to them got shot.
2 In a couple of areas groups of Syndicate and Disciple NPCs and their associated loot seemed to be placed unrealistically close to each other.
3 A lot of the loot was marked as stolen (some was, some wasn't). Is this intentional of an oversight?
EDIT:
My experience of Ebbside suggests that the crowds usually seen there during the day disappear at night. Would it be possible to have these new groups of Syndicate or Disciple NPCs only appear at night, and when killed, respawn after a week or so?
Regards
I made this change to try to make things more focused on small-scale fights with isolated groups of enemies, rather than turning Ebbside into an all-out war zone as soon as you fire a shot, but I can see how this could cause issues with groups that are nearby each other.
For #3, yes this is intentional, most containers are marked as owned by either the Syndicate, Disciples, or random street rats. This way, if they catch you stealing they will either attack or try to take their stuff back.
As far as respawning enemies, all are currently not set to respawn. I would have to be selective with choosing which ones were allowed to respawn, so that if crowds were active, you wouldn't have crowd NPCs just casually walking past Disciple gangsters, but it would be possible. As far as I know, the default respawn time for the entire game is 7 days
Regards
de-installed, everything in order again...
i guess it´s not good for late game installing....
Are you using MO2? I know MO2 uses a custom Starfield.ccc file to fix the load order of base-game plugins. If you aren't using MO2, these base-game masters might be loading in the wrong order, and causing the crashes. Here is the link to the GitHub where this issue is explained.
Also, can you both confirm you are not over the mod index limit, and have not uninstalled any mods on your current saves?
So, good news, New Atlantis is now fine with Dark Side loaded (who knows what was crashing that area). But Neon is still inaccessible. I can't land from orbit or fast travel to the starport there without a desktop crash.
****
Ok, as I've been writing this I've been testing and I found out what was causing the crash. Mod conflict (of course) with Street Rat Sleep Crate, which modifies the player home in ebbside and a couple of the nearby fishmonger spaces. There was also a conflict with Neon Stairs but not fatal, the stairs just disappered.
Well, I fixed all the conflicts by waiting to enable the sleep crate home and stairs until after I already had Dark Side working.
But, when I save the game, quit to desktop, and load the save with those mods enabled (full save, not exit save), the game immediately crashes. I CAN load that save with Street Rat Sleep Crates disabled.
I've since tried to load sleep crates mod after the game was running by quitting to the Creations menu (as had worked before) but that only worked once and I can't manage to reproduce whatever sequence I lucked onto.
So, that seems definitive: fatal conflict with Street Rat Sleep Crates mod.
You can use the deep scan load order feature of the Engine Fixes mod to see how far over the limit you are (load a save outside of Neon so you don't crash). If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the .txt file it outputs and the mod index number is less than 255, then you know the Creations load order is probably at fault, or an uninstalled mod has data baked into your save file that is causing issues.
Hopefully the Shattered Space update will fix all of this
I'm not using SFSE because I'm only using Creations (except when I'm making my own mods), and one of the reasons for that is because the Creations load order list is easy to save and doesn't get randomly changed (unlike my experiences with Vortex and MO2). The other reason is because I test my own mods for XBox, and consoles only have Creations, which means my load order save will work cross-platform.
I tried moving Sleep Crate to second-to-last in my list (another mod needs last place) and was able to load back into the save while in Neon Core, but as soon as I opened a door to ebbside, the game crashed. It could also be an incidental conflict caused by some combination of mods, so later I will try a different game save with only a few mods. For now I can live without the decorated crate home.
Getting your mod to work was totally worth it because I like Neon the best of all the cities and what you've added to it is really cool and fun. Thanks!
I wonder whether making SFBGS008.esm a master for your file to force DangerousEbbside.esm to load after it would be a very easy fix if the references, etc affected by the conflict could be the cause of at least the shared issues people have. Of course, the differences in the issues could be further affected by their individual setups. This could possibly especially help people who aren't comfortable with managing load orders, much less diving into xedit and creation kit. =)
I really enjoyed your mod and take on this quest and area! Thank you for sharing your excellent work with the community!
Hope you have a great day.
( xbox user )
Edit -
The possible Mod order i was thinking of is -
Neon Stairs
Ebbside is Dangerous
Neon Vertigo
The Disciples are supposed to be set to enemy status with security guards, but the Syndicate is not, due to lore reasons (Bayu controls both the Syndicate and security). I can see how this could be immersion breaking though so I can consider changing it