That's interesting, I'd like to see a picture if you have one. BnP is great for many things, especially bodies, but as I said in the previous post I'm working on something new, and I'm using Bijin because after much testing of skin mods, it seems the most balanced. Ideally, I would like to assign specific skins to NPCs, and I might try that in the future.
I’ll see if I can get a screenshot uploaded soon.
Ok so I have uploaded some screen shots. Diamond has a new texture I have yet to try out but I doubt it will be better than this. I do prefer the bijin-like version of bnp to anything else but in the case of these characters I just found it too dark. Perhaps you could provide a custom skin for each hair color so people can pick what they want that way. That seems the most logical way to break it up to me.
also if you give everybody a blank detail map then ppl can customize that way as well.
Thanks for the pictures, they look really good, especially Rayya. You clearly know more about textures than me, I've heard the terms many times, but don't always understand exactly what they are. For example, I wouldn't know how to customise a blank detail map. It's something I'm looking into recently, well more creating meshes at the moment, but it will lead to textures.
I'm definitely into the idea of combining them for better results.
I don’t know that much. I don’t even have creation kit. I have only customized a detail map a couple times. All you have to do is import it into a photo editor that can read dds files. (Dds is just another image format like bmp or jpg.)
If I had your artistic talent I would be making my own overhaul but I can never get faces to look like I want.
What I meant with the detail map is that if you included a blank one for Lydia for example, I could grab the freckles or wrinkle detail map from Bijin or Bnp etc., rename it blank detail map and give Lydia those freckles or wrinkles.
Thanks. First thing with RaceMenu, is to become familiar with what each slider does, and use any mods which add more. It's an amazing tool, but there are limitations to what you can do with it.
I'm not really happy with this mod, or my Solitude one. I like some of the presets in them, but I intend to ultimately replace them with the mod I'm working on now. I feel my latest are a step up from anything I've released previously, but it's very difficult for me to tell. I don't suppose you'd be interested in giving me some feedback on what I've done so far? Basically I'd send you load of pics.
I apologize if this comment is simple or has already been addressed, but when running easynpc it indicate a missing facegen (even though when running the game, all faces but Hulga seem to be fine). I believe I have all the correct files, but I was wondering if their is a certain file that I am missing. Thank you very much in advance to whoever responds to this post.
Sorry for the late reply, and to hear you're having issues. I've not tried Easy NPC myself, because I pick and choose in Xedit. She has worked for others, so I'm wondering if there's something with the EasyNPC process, which is stopping it from connecting the facegen with the NPC. I'm actually working on a huge NPC overhaul. I'll probably release it race at a time, and then an all in one. I feel like I've improved since these city mods, and only a few NPCs from them will be in the new mods. I will most likely delete these when I release the first.
I don't mind constructive criticism, and you're the second person to say it, so they must at least appear that way to some. The thing is, technically at least, they aren't. I put effort in to make sure that isn't the case, in fact until I received these two comments, the one positive thing I would have said about them with absolute confidence, is that, even if they're rubbish, they are at least different from one another. If you were to look at the racemenu sliders for the presets (obviously you can't), you would see how varied they really are.
The previous comment was for my Solitude mod, and I took it to heart, and put even more effort into this one to make sure they didn't appear that way so I am a little surprised. Have you actually installed it, and tried it in game? Have you tried it with skin textures other than BnP? I made them initially with Diamond skin, and then switched to BnP, and made edits, so that detail still shows on the fair skin types.
I do feel that BnP maybe masks some of the detail I put in whilst on Diamond, especially the mouths, and I need to expand on the second stage of their creation, or maybe base them around a different skin entirely. Other than that, I don't know what to say, other than they really are varied. I also feel that this could be said for some of the most popular NPC replacers, and maybe it is, I don't know, but it really is something I put significant effort into avoiding, so kinda sucks that it hasn't worked for some people at least lol.
I've been deciding whether to try either this mod or the Solitude mod or both. I'm drawn to the mods because, in your pictures, the gals look to be a great cross between _very_ cute and soulfully realistic! Sort of a fantasy girl-next-door thing, and I'm enchanted.
However, purely based on your photos on the images pages, and before I read the comments, I became concerned that for me it may be too many variations on the 'same' face when the mod installs a few dozen 'makeovers' throughout a city. I know almost nothing about how to make Skyrim characters / faces, and your comment here is good food for my thought. I reckon it's likely that each artful mod creator who provides a replacer for many Skyrim gals does that work with nifty variations stemming that creator's own preferred fundamental 'face' or 'head' or whatever? So maybe maximum variety would only come from combining some replacers from creator A, some from creator B, and so on. But it helps me understand the depth of your work more when you describe some about how, indeed, you quite consciously varied the faces.
And when I look back at the photos, it's only some that appear really similar. The first line of Whiterun photos--thus one of a potential user's first impressions--has Hulda and Acadia next to each other, and while you (B&G) see them knowing how you made each one separately, at a glance they seem like the same (really cute) woman with different hair styles/colors. On the other hand, just from the very next line of photos, Saadia and Camilla don't strike me as looking like each other or looking like Hulda & Acadia.
(Skyrim has taught me a bit about how unobservant I can be, grin. There's a follower mod I've installed that features two women, Cuc & Cam, whom the creator describes as sisters. I can see that they could be sisters, but one looks somewhat older and more world-weary to me. Yet the creator, in the 'posts' discussion, revealed that the two have exactly the same face, just different hair! It's fascinating how I could get such different impressions just from a different hairstyle. It's even the same color hair.)
I had been thinking how I'd _love_ to install a number of your gals--just maybe not the entire groups, due to the variety concern I'd been speculating about. From the groups, I'd choose ones who represent a range of hair colors & skin colors, to maximize the sense of variety. A different reason that I like the idea of installing some of the makeovers rather than all is because I've already got some of these gals looking really cool from other mods. But from what you've said, I now realize that your gals have more variety than I was picking up on from a look at the photos. I should try them out. =)
(I quite recently switched to the BnP skin that I see you're recommending. It has made some of my mod-replaced NPCs look less comely than before, but not others. And I am generally liking how 'real' the people's skin itself looks with BnP. Previously I was trying Tempered skin, and I liked that too, but pale-skinned gals seemed to get too much glare off of their skin--often kinda difficult to see them. I don't have any lighting mods.)
Thank you for your creative efforts! Judging from the photos, each gal is simultaneously beautiful and interesting-looking.
Thank you for taking the time to add to this, because I really like talking about it :), and don't really get the chance to very often.
To be fair urielmanx7 has a point, and it may well be what's holding the two mods back. I started looking at the pics again, and thought the noses, and mouths do look very similar, and it distracts from the other aspects. After thinking about it today, I think I know what the problem is.
Like I mentioned in my reply to them, I make them using Diamond skin. This is because it has a lot less shading, and texture to it than other skin textures, except the ones which are very similar to it, such as Fair. I think it forces me to put more effort into shaping the face, to bring out the features more, because you can't rely on the shading, and so on another skin texture might give.
You might notice this if you see a vanilla NPC with Diamond or similar skin. The face lacks detail, and doesn't look that great to me, whereas a more mature skin will make a vanilla face look decent. All skin mods have their merits, and like you were saying the ideal would be to use different ones for different NPC's. For example Diamond for younger, BnP for middle, Realore for Mature. It would be more varied than that, and I would use all options available, just as a general idea.
I then switch to BnP, their intended texture, but what I'm really looking for at that point is anything abnormal that's happened with the texture change. Until I started doing this, I didn't release how much affect the skin texture can have on nose, and lip size. For example, all the ones I've tried which are unlike Diamond, significantly increase the size of the lips, but they can also have a big impact on the size, and shape of the nose. Basically I try to find a balance between the two skin types, so it looks OK with either.
The whole process is quite long, and I have to finish the mod completely before I can go in and check what they actually look like in game as NPC's. It's a tense moment, and you feel relief each time you come across one that doesn't have an obvious sign you went wrong somewhere. I like talking pics, but I tend to be rushing to get the mod out after spending so much time on it already, and because of this, maybe not noticing that the texture change has masked some of the original detail.
What I would need to do is edit the face more in the BnP stage, but it comes at a cost to how it will look with Diamond, and similar, and those Fair skin types are some of the most popular ones on the Nexus. My aim is for them to look decent with medium skins, and below. I think it's impossible to make a face which will look as intended with every skin type, you can only hope they still look OK, no matter what the users choose. Some may even look better, but some will look worse.
I do think mine look a lot more very varied in game than they do in the pics, even with the BnP skin. They may also appeal to fairer skin types users more, and maybe I should get some pics up to show that. I'm pleased you mention Hulda, and Acadia, because they are two presets I've had for a long time, and their appearance has changed many times as I've gone back to them. No shared ancestor preset either, so I'm confident the resemblance in the pictures is not caused by the actual presets. Like you say, there will be a style to them, because they were made by the same person.
Thanks for your compliment below, it's exactly what I want to hear.
I'm drawn to the mods because, in your pictures, the gals look to be a great cross between _very_ cute and soulfully realistic! Sort of a fantasy girl-next-door thing, and I'm enchanted.
You do know that Cuc, and Cam are mine? I was amazed at the difference the hairstyle made too, so glad you were. The hairstyle affects so much, like age, how wide the face looks, that kind of thing.
There are ways to pick, and choose which NPC's you want from different mods, like EasyNPC, and it's definitely the way to go. I will go back, and improve the Whiterun, and Solitude mods at some point, and will most likely release some of my favourites in a smaller mod, or as followers too. It all takes time though.
Thanks for the message, and sorry about the length of mine, you caught me in a very write long messages about Skyrim type of mood.
No, I hadn't yet put it together that Cuc & Cam are yours! I've been traveling with Cuc in my party. Skyrim lets me be Doctor Who, going on weird adventures with a group of lovely and devoted companions. I've been adventuring with a few of the wonderful 'personality' mods like Remi, Auri, and extra-dialogue Lydia, along with a few of the coolest-looking 'quiet' followers I've come across like Danika, Sinead, and Cuc. Recently, I gave Cuc a nice pair of glasses, partly because she otherwise seems to look at me disapprovingly at times, grin.
It's interesting that Hulga and Acadia derive from no shared ancestor! I'm not good at noticing which details are adding up to an impression I get. Like, there have been very few people in my life whose eye color I ever remember. (Actually, Skyrim is being some 'help' with this. Because I'm noticing how different costumes for my traveling companions can make a big aesthetic difference, when I'm not used to actively thinking about the effect of clothes at all.)
So far, I'm not very experienced with Skyrim's mod skins. Until recently, I had whatever the default would've been with UNP--whether the default was vanilla or from UNP I'm not sure. Some NPC mods seem to have extra smooth & perfect skin on the person, and I've gradually realized I don't prefer that. Both Danika's author triptherift and Sinead's author evgirunslaad sort of apologized on their pages for these NPCs supposedly not being good-looking, but I think they're among the most strikingly attractive Skyrim gals I've come across; their mixture of beauty and some realism makes them especially endearing (given the considerable limitation that they are effectively 'extreme introverts' compared to the NPC mods that include voiced personalities). You mentioned, "Those Fair skin types are some of the most popular ones on the Nexus," but I don't think that most popular is something you should worry about--a lot of popular material on the Nexus is kinda the opposite of your realistically-pretty girls-next-door.
What you're explaining about starting the process with Diamond skin before tinkering with it using BnP... Am I understanding that Diamond sort of inhibits detailed realism efforts (you have to work to get them noticeable), but then BnP sort of emphasizes (or simply changes?) some of those same efforts, and so it's an interesting challenge to work with both in the same character? Now I'm further intrigued to see the faces in-game, tonight or some day soon.
When I switched to BnP, some of my mod NPCs look older. Which is okay, an interesting difference. I wouldn't want all of them to look older, however.
Gosh, EasyNPC's description page sounds great. But posts about it from this year make it sound very tricky to install and use, way over my current head.
I installed, and went to Whiterun to look around. I've encountered three problems. The main one on my end is that most of my women of Whiterun are now afflicted with spooky dark faces. I know this is a pretty common snafu when installing mods for one's game, but I haven't dealt with it before, so I'll have to find out how to get past it. Presumably it's something about my combo of mods, not the fault of your mod.
Several of the NPCs already worked. For example, Acadia, Ahlam, and Gerda look adorable.
The second problem is I realized that Gerda actually shouldn't be a hottie. Her new young & beautiful looks remind me a little of actress Jess Bush as Nurse Chapel in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, who is about age 30 with white hair and a playful, vibrant personality. But then Gerda talks, and she talks like a sweet old lady. Though I guess Gerda's voice could be changed, it seems simpler to let Gerda remain a senior citizen and save the lovely young face for another purpose. (Grin, I would totally go for a Christine Chapel NPC for Skyrim--a thirty-ish healer follower--built from your Gerda starting point!) The character Fianna too has a voice that sounds older--but in her case, just kind of scratchy, not as dramatically older as Gerda's voice.
The third problem: I was looking forward to the mod's Saadia, who is super-cute in the photo on the image page. But when I found her, she looks neat, but she seems to look so much like Cuc that it's distracting. This won't a problem if one doesn't happen to be also hanging out with Cuc from the Cuc & Cam mod. (Of the ones I can see so far, the mod's other replacers do not remind me of Cuc. And I don't even detect the Saadia-Cuc resemblance in your photos of Saadia. Well, slightly the photo on page 3.)
Ha, cool. thanks, I'd like to see a pic of Cuc with glasses.
Yeah, clothes can make a big difference. An outfit can compliment one NPC, and not another. I like some imperfections, it adds realism, and they're needed to create a unique look. Think of the person you think is the most attractive in the world, and then go look at some pictures of them. Check their bone structure, the size, and shape of their nose, that kind of thing, and you'll find imperfections, but they are what make the face.
I've been moving away from Diamond skin, but as I've not played the game since I started creating followers, and so on, I haven't had to make a choice for a playthrough. I think I would still go for BnP, because it's good quality, and balanced. Recently I made a preset with LoverGirl Skin, never used it before, and I like a lot about it, but when I tried it on presets I'd made with other skins, for the most part it made them look worse. It changes the shape of the lips, thins the nose, and more. To use it for my game I would have to edit my presets to fit with it, although I do think the end result could be good.
You're right in that I'm making a mistake trying to appeal to two skin types. I will go back to the Sol and WR mods and update some of the NPC's, won't be a quick job though. I've always preferred an NPC to use your own skin textures, but I'm beginning to question it now, I've tried more skin types.
Yes to your question about Diamond skin. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of it in many ways, and think it's the best choice for some of my presets, but not all. It's great for youth, works well for darker skin tones, it has a style to it, which can be useful to create certain affects. I'm still learning a lot, so this may not be the case, but I felt a face made with Diamond transitioned better to other skin types, than making it with one of those, and then switching to Diamond. I haven't tested it yet, but I suspect the LoverGirl preset I made, will have a very large nose, with excessive nose wing width, with Diamond, because I had to increase those values to compensate for how LoverGirl thins those features. I guess you could say, Diamond is more like a blank canvas.
That's something else too, like you mention with the tempered skins. Skin textures can be lighter, or darker than one another. For example, Nord skin 3, will look lighter with Diamond, and darker with BnP.
Yeah the dark face bug, is due to mod conflicts. It works like this. Each NPC has a single record in the game, which includes all their information, including their appearance, stats, inventory, and so on. So if you were to install only my Whiterun mod, and looked at the record for one of the included NPC's in Xedit, you would see the NPC's original record contained in the Skyrim.esm, and then to the right of it, the same record from my plugin BloomWhiterunWomen.esp, but mine will contain the information for the change in appearance.
It's technically a conflict, but a desired one. The reason the record from my plugin appears to the right, and therefore takes priority, and used in the game, is due to the order the plugins are loaded. It wouldn't be possible to load mine before Skyrim.esm, but that's rarely the case in other situations, which is why load order can be so important.
A more complicated situation, would be if we add the mod AI overhaul, which edits a huge number of NPC records. Now we have three plugins containing the same record, and that's what you would see in Xedit. Whichever you loaded last out of mine, and AIO will be the record furthest to the right, and the one that will be used by the game. With mine last, you get the new appearance, with AIO last, the edits it makes to the NPCs AI. This is the basic principle for these types of conflict, known as the rule of one, because the game can only load one version of that record.
When it's a conflict with an appearance change it can lead to you seeing the face bug in game. I can't remember the technicalities, but it's something to do with the conflict causing issues when the game generates the NPCs face. It doesn't happen if the appearance changer mod is loaded after any other mods which edit the same record, but that isn't a solution, because you lose the edits those mods make. In the above scenario you would see the face bug, if AIO was loaded last.
At this point you need to resolve the conflict with a patch. The patch would contain the NPCs record, but this time, it would have the edits made by my mod, and AIO. Without knowing which mods you use, it's difficult for me to advise, but you definitely, have non-appearance mods editing the same NPCs as mine, lower down in your load order.
Ha, yeah, sounds like I may have miss cast the two cleaners. To be honest, I didn't realise people would consider Gerdur a hottie, she was a preset I released a long time ago, it was a pack of three, but I took it down, because it only got a few downloads a month, and decided to edit the faces and use them as NPCs instead. In my eyes she's maybe in her 40s, but looks young for her age, and yet acts old for her age. Complicated, lol. I will change her at some point. Fianna, was just supposed to be a not unattractive, but fairly plain working women, not stand out to much.
Saadia has the same hairstyle as Cuc, which as we know has a big affect. I've tried not to repeat hairstyles on my NPC appearance changers, and so fair haven't, but I did allow myself to use ones I've used for followers. Although completely different presets, they have a similar face structure, which is no doubt why I felt the hairstyle suited both.
This is good feedback, I'm still learning, and it's very difficult for me to look at them objectively. I wish I got more of it, even if it's I don't like them because.
Yeah, this bundle of loveliness and imperfection is to me one of the most appealing NPCs on the Nexus: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17786
I hadn't thought about 'skins' noticeably changing the shape of facial features like lips and noses, but I start to get it now that you mention it.
I agree that your Gerda face could be a beautiful forty-year-old. But the character's voice sounds like she's 80. And yeah, your Fianna looks more plain. Fianna's voice sounds (very approximately) 60 (though it could be a younger person with just a scratchy voice). I'm also trying out someone else's cool-looking replacer for Tekla of Falkreath. I hadn't realized that Tekla has the same scratchy/older voice as Fianna, so the youngish replacer is mildly clashing there too--the author actually mentions wishing to change her voice someday.
The Tekla replacer arrived with dark face too, but in her case it's just the lower half of her forehead, weirdly. Before this week, the only darkness face problem I had was with a few children in mod-added towns, characters I could readily ignore. For your Whiterun replacers, Vortex asked me about resolving conflicts with Bijin replacers and with Kalilies replacers. I told it to put yours last/after, which Vortex was already suggesting.
I have no experience with Xedit or other tools. Looking at some posted advice about the darkness face thing, the 'real' fixes sound intimidatingly complicated, and some people bemoan that they've not had success despite looong efforts at 'real' fixes. I'm very tempted to try "Face Discoloration Fix" https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/42441 , a workaround that seems to make many users extremely happy. From what I've read so far, it might have two bad side effects. 1: it might noticeably slow down the computer, but likely not? 2: it might avoid the darkness face but without actually allowing me to have the face as the mod author intended, i.e., the face I'm seeking. I am probably misunderstanding the jargon, but some info seems to imply that the resulting non-discolored face could be some hybrid or default, not the one that you (B&G, for example) crafted for me. But loads of people have posted their great joy upon using the mod--quite a remarkable outpouring.
Alas, installing "Face Discoloration Fix" didn't yield a good enough result. My women of Whiterun no longer have darkened faces, but they don't have the right faces either. Their faces look kinda generic, and in at least some cases, their hair is weird. (The few that already had successfully received your makeover are still correct and good.) Also, the Tekla replacer from another author still has a strange dark blotch across her forehead.
Sometime I'll try disabling my Bijin and/or Kalilies replacers, to see if my game will then let your work come thru successfully. For now, I'll disable Women of Whiterun. I've enclosed photos of your Acadia and Gerda, who hadn't suffered my darkened face problem, to show how pretty they are. I'd totally go for a newly-added NPC version of your Gerda creation, and various other of these people.
The warrior women is a great look, and I agree she's attractive. Not the usual style from the author, but maybe one they should explore more.
I should have checked her voice. She isn't classed as an elder by the game. The very old in Skyrim have their own race class, I guess so that they can be given the old person body. There aren't that many in the whole game, and about 5 of them live in Whiterun. She may have had the 50ish skin complexion, which I removed, but didn't think her voice would be old based on that age. There aren't that many voice types in Skyrim, and I believe several are done by the same actors, so I guess Bethesda didn't have many to pick from when assigning them to NPC's.
It would be good to fix your face bug issue. As a general rule, you should have any mods which edit NPC records not related to appearance, above your NPC appearance changing mods. These are mainly AIO, weapon, and weapon, and armour mods. That way, worse case scenario, the NPC won't have the new items, or AI, but will at least look right in game.
If it's a quest mod, then it may cause issues, because those edits might be crucial for the quest to progress. This situation isn't that common, as most quest mods add new NPCs, but you would be better off patching them, or having the quest mod below.
What I do, is install a NPC overhaul, then any patches for it, and then the next NPC overhaul, it's patches, and so on. That way you know each one is patched correctly. I don't use loot, but it may struggle with multiple patches for different appearance mods.
It's worth using the face colour fix mod, but yeah, as far as I know it only works for NPCs using vanilla face gen. The main use I think is to fix generic NPCs added by other mods. Don't think it affects my performance. I realise how intimidating patching can be, because I was intimidated by it for way to long, but it's not as bad as you think.
For starters it's difficult to do any damage, providing you save your changes to a new ESL flagged ESP. Worse case scenario, your patch doesn't work, and you've wasted time. Even if you accidently changed a mod, you can simply not save the changes. Even if you did that, you'd only have to reinstall the mod.
I'd recommend people to at least check their load orders in Xedit, you won't have full control as a modder, until you take that step. NPC records are an ideal starting point because they're simpler than some other types of mods to patch. Copy the record of the NPC with the desired appearance edits into a new plugin, then forward the edits made by other mods into that record. Don't touch anything related to appearance, even if it shows as a conflict with another mod, and you're golden. There's certain mods I won't patch, or maybe only as a last resort like lighting mods, because I don't understand them well enough. I've had some success, but sometimes make it worse.
Thanks for the pics. I've decided to redo a lot of my Whiterun, and Solitude mod. I want to do something special. Some will stay, maybe get some edits, some more so, and some replaced completely. I'll swap a few around to make them fit more appropriately. I'm happy with the Thieves guild one I did, I just hope it's not that popular due to options like Bijin existing for all the NPCs included, rather than people not liking it.
23 comments
Ok so I have uploaded some screen shots. Diamond has a new texture I have yet to try out but I doubt it will be better than this. I do prefer the bijin-like version of bnp to anything else but in the case of these characters I just found it too dark. Perhaps you could provide a custom skin for each hair color so people can pick what they want that way. That seems the most logical way to break it up to me.
also if you give everybody a blank detail map then ppl can customize that way as well.
I'm definitely into the idea of combining them for better results.
If I had your artistic talent I would be making my own overhaul but I can never get faces to look like I want.
What I meant with the detail map is that if you included a blank one for Lydia for example, I could grab the freckles or wrinkle detail map from Bijin or Bnp etc., rename it blank detail map and give Lydia those freckles or wrinkles.
I'm not really happy with this mod, or my Solitude one. I like some of the presets in them, but I intend to ultimately replace them with the mod I'm working on now. I feel my latest are a step up from anything I've released previously, but it's very difficult for me to tell. I don't suppose you'd be interested in giving me some feedback on what I've done so far? Basically I'd send you load of pics.
The previous comment was for my Solitude mod, and I took it to heart, and put even more effort into this one to make sure they didn't appear that way so I am a little surprised. Have you actually installed it, and tried it in game? Have you tried it with skin textures other than BnP? I made them initially with Diamond skin, and then switched to BnP, and made edits, so that detail still shows on the fair skin types.
I do feel that BnP maybe masks some of the detail I put in whilst on Diamond, especially the mouths, and I need to expand on the second stage of their creation, or maybe base them around a different skin entirely. Other than that, I don't know what to say, other than they really are varied. I also feel that this could be said for some of the most popular NPC replacers, and maybe it is, I don't know, but it really is something I put significant effort into avoiding, so kinda sucks that it hasn't worked for some people at least lol.
However, purely based on your photos on the images pages, and before I read the comments, I became concerned that for me it may be too many variations on the 'same' face when the mod installs a few dozen 'makeovers' throughout a city. I know almost nothing about how to make Skyrim characters / faces, and your comment here is good food for my thought. I reckon it's likely that each artful mod creator who provides a replacer for many Skyrim gals does that work with nifty variations stemming that creator's own preferred fundamental 'face' or 'head' or whatever? So maybe maximum variety would only come from combining some replacers from creator A, some from creator B, and so on. But it helps me understand the depth of your work more when you describe some about how, indeed, you quite consciously varied the faces.
And when I look back at the photos, it's only some that appear really similar. The first line of Whiterun photos--thus one of a potential user's first impressions--has Hulda and Acadia next to each other, and while you (B&G) see them knowing how you made each one separately, at a glance they seem like the same (really cute) woman with different hair styles/colors. On the other hand, just from the very next line of photos, Saadia and Camilla don't strike me as looking like each other or looking like Hulda & Acadia.
(Skyrim has taught me a bit about how unobservant I can be, grin. There's a follower mod I've installed that features two women, Cuc & Cam, whom the creator describes as sisters. I can see that they could be sisters, but one looks somewhat older and more world-weary to me. Yet the creator, in the 'posts' discussion, revealed that the two have exactly the same face, just different hair! It's fascinating how I could get such different impressions just from a different hairstyle. It's even the same color hair.)
I had been thinking how I'd _love_ to install a number of your gals--just maybe not the entire groups, due to the variety concern I'd been speculating about. From the groups, I'd choose ones who represent a range of hair colors & skin colors, to maximize the sense of variety. A different reason that I like the idea of installing some of the makeovers rather than all is because I've already got some of these gals looking really cool from other mods. But from what you've said, I now realize that your gals have more variety than I was picking up on from a look at the photos. I should try them out. =)
(I quite recently switched to the BnP skin that I see you're recommending. It has made some of my mod-replaced NPCs look less comely than before, but not others. And I am generally liking how 'real' the people's skin itself looks with BnP. Previously I was trying Tempered skin, and I liked that too, but pale-skinned gals seemed to get too much glare off of their skin--often kinda difficult to see them. I don't have any lighting mods.)
Thank you for your creative efforts! Judging from the photos, each gal is simultaneously beautiful and interesting-looking.
To be fair urielmanx7 has a point, and it may well be what's holding the two mods back. I started looking at the pics again, and thought the noses, and mouths do look very similar, and it distracts from the other aspects. After thinking about it today, I think I know what the problem is.
Like I mentioned in my reply to them, I make them using Diamond skin. This is because it has a lot less shading, and texture to it than other skin textures, except the ones which are very similar to it, such as Fair. I think it forces me to put more effort into shaping the face, to bring out the features more, because you can't rely on the shading, and so on another skin texture might give.
You might notice this if you see a vanilla NPC with Diamond or similar skin. The face lacks detail, and doesn't look that great to me, whereas a more mature skin will make a vanilla face look decent. All skin mods have their merits, and like you were saying the ideal would be to use different ones for different NPC's. For example Diamond for younger, BnP for middle, Realore for Mature. It would be more varied than that, and I would use all options available, just as a general idea.
I then switch to BnP, their intended texture, but what I'm really looking for at that point is anything abnormal that's happened with the texture change. Until I started doing this, I didn't release how much affect the skin texture can have on nose, and lip size. For example, all the ones I've tried which are unlike Diamond, significantly increase the size of the lips, but they can also have a big impact on the size, and shape of the nose. Basically I try to find a balance between the two skin types, so it looks OK with either.
The whole process is quite long, and I have to finish the mod completely before I can go in and check what they actually look like in game as NPC's. It's a tense moment, and you feel relief each time you come across one that doesn't have an obvious sign you went wrong somewhere. I like talking pics, but I tend to be rushing to get the mod out after spending so much time on it already, and because of this, maybe not noticing that the texture change has masked some of the original detail.
What I would need to do is edit the face more in the BnP stage, but it comes at a cost to how it will look with Diamond, and similar, and those Fair skin types are some of the most popular ones on the Nexus. My aim is for them to look decent with medium skins, and below. I think it's impossible to make a face which will look as intended with every skin type, you can only hope they still look OK, no matter what the users choose. Some may even look better, but some will look worse.
I do think mine look a lot more very varied in game than they do in the pics, even with the BnP skin. They may also appeal to fairer skin types users more, and maybe I should get some pics up to show that. I'm pleased you mention Hulda, and Acadia, because they are two presets I've had for a long time, and their appearance has changed many times as I've gone back to them. No shared ancestor preset either, so I'm confident the resemblance in the pictures is not caused by the actual presets. Like you say, there will be a style to them, because they were made by the same person.
Thanks for your compliment below, it's exactly what I want to hear.
I'm drawn to the mods because, in your pictures, the gals look to be a great cross between _very_ cute and soulfully realistic! Sort of a fantasy girl-next-door thing, and I'm enchanted.
You do know that Cuc, and Cam are mine? I was amazed at the difference the hairstyle made too, so glad you were. The hairstyle affects so much, like age, how wide the face looks, that kind of thing.
There are ways to pick, and choose which NPC's you want from different mods, like EasyNPC, and it's definitely the way to go. I will go back, and improve the Whiterun, and Solitude mods at some point, and will most likely release some of my favourites in a smaller mod, or as followers too. It all takes time though.
Thanks for the message, and sorry about the length of mine, you caught me in a very write long messages about Skyrim type of mood.
It's interesting that Hulga and Acadia derive from no shared ancestor! I'm not good at noticing which details are adding up to an impression I get. Like, there have been very few people in my life whose eye color I ever remember. (Actually, Skyrim is being some 'help' with this. Because I'm noticing how different costumes for my traveling companions can make a big aesthetic difference, when I'm not used to actively thinking about the effect of clothes at all.)
So far, I'm not very experienced with Skyrim's mod skins. Until recently, I had whatever the default would've been with UNP--whether the default was vanilla or from UNP I'm not sure. Some NPC mods seem to have extra smooth & perfect skin on the person, and I've gradually realized I don't prefer that. Both Danika's author triptherift and Sinead's author evgirunslaad sort of apologized on their pages for these NPCs supposedly not being good-looking, but I think they're among the most strikingly attractive Skyrim gals I've come across; their mixture of beauty and some realism makes them especially endearing (given the considerable limitation that they are effectively 'extreme introverts' compared to the NPC mods that include voiced personalities). You mentioned, "Those Fair skin types are some of the most popular ones on the Nexus," but I don't think that most popular is something you should worry about--a lot of popular material on the Nexus is kinda the opposite of your realistically-pretty girls-next-door.
What you're explaining about starting the process with Diamond skin before tinkering with it using BnP... Am I understanding that Diamond sort of inhibits detailed realism efforts (you have to work to get them noticeable), but then BnP sort of emphasizes (or simply changes?) some of those same efforts, and so it's an interesting challenge to work with both in the same character? Now I'm further intrigued to see the faces in-game, tonight or some day soon.
When I switched to BnP, some of my mod NPCs look older. Which is okay, an interesting difference. I wouldn't want all of them to look older, however.
Gosh, EasyNPC's description page sounds great. But posts about it from this year make it sound very tricky to install and use, way over my current head.
The main one on my end is that most of my women of Whiterun are now afflicted with spooky dark faces. I know this is a pretty common snafu when installing mods for one's game, but I haven't dealt with it before, so I'll have to find out how to get past it. Presumably it's something about my combo of mods, not the fault of your mod.
Several of the NPCs already worked. For example, Acadia, Ahlam, and Gerda look adorable.
The second problem is I realized that Gerda actually shouldn't be a hottie. Her new young & beautiful looks remind me a little of actress Jess Bush as Nurse Chapel in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, who is about age 30 with white hair and a playful, vibrant personality. But then Gerda talks, and she talks like a sweet old lady. Though I guess Gerda's voice could be changed, it seems simpler to let Gerda remain a senior citizen and save the lovely young face for another purpose. (Grin, I would totally go for a Christine Chapel NPC for Skyrim--a thirty-ish healer follower--built from your Gerda starting point!) The character Fianna too has a voice that sounds older--but in her case, just kind of scratchy, not as dramatically older as Gerda's voice.
Here's Jess Bush:
https://preview.redd.it/g4r615mk1j491.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=cd7eda16eac9e08af701a6071cdb7e036d0e4d31
The third problem: I was looking forward to the mod's Saadia, who is super-cute in the photo on the image page. But when I found her, she looks neat, but she seems to look so much like Cuc that it's distracting. This won't a problem if one doesn't happen to be also hanging out with Cuc from the Cuc & Cam mod. (Of the ones I can see so far, the mod's other replacers do not remind me of Cuc. And I don't even detect the Saadia-Cuc resemblance in your photos of Saadia. Well, slightly the photo on page 3.)
Yeah, clothes can make a big difference. An outfit can compliment one NPC, and not another. I like some imperfections, it adds realism, and they're needed to create a unique look. Think of the person you think is the most attractive in the world, and then go look at some pictures of them. Check their bone structure, the size, and shape of their nose, that kind of thing, and you'll find imperfections, but they are what make the face.
I've been moving away from Diamond skin, but as I've not played the game since I started creating followers, and so on, I haven't had to make a choice for a playthrough. I think I would still go for BnP, because it's good quality, and balanced. Recently I made a preset with LoverGirl Skin, never used it before, and I like a lot about it, but when I tried it on presets I'd made with other skins, for the most part it made them look worse. It changes the shape of the lips, thins the nose, and more. To use it for my game I would have to edit my presets to fit with it, although I do think the end result could be good.
You're right in that I'm making a mistake trying to appeal to two skin types. I will go back to the Sol and WR mods and update some of the NPC's, won't be a quick job though. I've always preferred an NPC to use your own skin textures, but I'm beginning to question it now, I've tried more skin types.
Yes to your question about Diamond skin. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of it in many ways, and think it's the best choice for some of my presets, but not all. It's great for youth, works well for darker skin tones, it has a style to it, which can be useful to create certain affects. I'm still learning a lot, so this may not be the case, but I felt a face made with Diamond transitioned better to other skin types, than making it with one of those, and then switching to Diamond. I haven't tested it yet, but I suspect the LoverGirl preset I made, will have a very large nose, with excessive nose wing width, with Diamond, because I had to increase those values to compensate for how LoverGirl thins those features. I guess you could say, Diamond is more like a blank canvas.
That's something else too, like you mention with the tempered skins. Skin textures can be lighter, or darker than one another. For example, Nord skin 3, will look lighter with Diamond, and darker with BnP.
Yeah the dark face bug, is due to mod conflicts. It works like this. Each NPC has a single record in the game, which includes all their information, including their appearance, stats, inventory, and so on. So if you were to install only my Whiterun mod, and looked at the record for one of the included NPC's in Xedit, you would see the NPC's original record contained in the Skyrim.esm, and then to the right of it, the same record from my plugin BloomWhiterunWomen.esp, but mine will contain the information for the change in appearance.
It's technically a conflict, but a desired one. The reason the record from my plugin appears to the right, and therefore takes priority, and used in the game, is due to the order the plugins are loaded. It wouldn't be possible to load mine before Skyrim.esm, but that's rarely the case in other situations, which is why load order can be so important.
A more complicated situation, would be if we add the mod AI overhaul, which edits a huge number of NPC records. Now we have three plugins containing the same record, and that's what you would see in Xedit. Whichever you loaded last out of mine, and AIO will be the record furthest to the right, and the one that will be used by the game. With mine last, you get the new appearance, with AIO last, the edits it makes to the NPCs AI. This is the basic principle for these types of conflict, known as the rule of one, because the game can only load one version of that record.
When it's a conflict with an appearance change it can lead to you seeing the face bug in game. I can't remember the technicalities, but it's something to do with the conflict causing issues when the game generates the NPCs face. It doesn't happen if the appearance changer mod is loaded after any other mods which edit the same record, but that isn't a solution, because you lose the edits those mods make. In the above scenario you would see the face bug, if AIO was loaded last.
At this point you need to resolve the conflict with a patch. The patch would contain the NPCs record, but this time, it would have the edits made by my mod, and AIO. Without knowing which mods you use, it's difficult for me to advise, but you definitely, have non-appearance mods editing the same NPCs as mine, lower down in your load order.
Ha, yeah, sounds like I may have miss cast the two cleaners. To be honest, I didn't realise people would consider Gerdur a hottie, she was a preset I released a long time ago, it was a pack of three, but I took it down, because it only got a few downloads a month, and decided to edit the faces and use them as NPCs instead. In my eyes she's maybe in her 40s, but looks young for her age, and yet acts old for her age. Complicated, lol. I will change her at some point. Fianna, was just supposed to be a not unattractive, but fairly plain working women, not stand out to much.
Saadia has the same hairstyle as Cuc, which as we know has a big affect. I've tried not to repeat hairstyles on my NPC appearance changers, and so fair haven't, but I did allow myself to use ones I've used for followers. Although completely different presets, they have a similar face structure, which is no doubt why I felt the hairstyle suited both.
This is good feedback, I'm still learning, and it's very difficult for me to look at them objectively. I wish I got more of it, even if it's I don't like them because.
Thanks
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17786
I hadn't thought about 'skins' noticeably changing the shape of facial features like lips and noses, but I start to get it now that you mention it.
I agree that your Gerda face could be a beautiful forty-year-old. But the character's voice sounds like she's 80. And yeah, your Fianna looks more plain. Fianna's voice sounds (very approximately) 60 (though it could be a younger person with just a scratchy voice). I'm also trying out someone else's cool-looking replacer for Tekla of Falkreath. I hadn't realized that Tekla has the same scratchy/older voice as Fianna, so the youngish replacer is mildly clashing there too--the author actually mentions wishing to change her voice someday.
The Tekla replacer arrived with dark face too, but in her case it's just the lower half of her forehead, weirdly. Before this week, the only darkness face problem I had was with a few children in mod-added towns, characters I could readily ignore. For your Whiterun replacers, Vortex asked me about resolving conflicts with Bijin replacers and with Kalilies replacers. I told it to put yours last/after, which Vortex was already suggesting.
I have no experience with Xedit or other tools. Looking at some posted advice about the darkness face thing, the 'real' fixes sound intimidatingly complicated, and some people bemoan that they've not had success despite looong efforts at 'real' fixes. I'm very tempted to try "Face Discoloration Fix" https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/42441 , a workaround that seems to make many users extremely happy. From what I've read so far, it might have two bad side effects. 1: it might noticeably slow down the computer, but likely not? 2: it might avoid the darkness face but without actually allowing me to have the face as the mod author intended, i.e., the face I'm seeking. I am probably misunderstanding the jargon, but some info seems to imply that the resulting non-discolored face could be some hybrid or default, not the one that you (B&G, for example) crafted for me. But loads of people have posted their great joy upon using the mod--quite a remarkable outpouring.
Sometime I'll try disabling my Bijin and/or Kalilies replacers, to see if my game will then let your work come thru successfully. For now, I'll disable Women of Whiterun. I've enclosed photos of your Acadia and Gerda, who hadn't suffered my darkened face problem, to show how pretty they are. I'd totally go for a newly-added NPC version of your Gerda creation, and various other of these people.
I should have checked her voice. She isn't classed as an elder by the game. The very old in Skyrim have their own race class, I guess so that they can be given the old person body. There aren't that many in the whole game, and about 5 of them live in Whiterun. She may have had the 50ish skin complexion, which I removed, but didn't think her voice would be old based on that age. There aren't that many voice types in Skyrim, and I believe several are done by the same actors, so I guess Bethesda didn't have many to pick from when assigning them to NPC's.
It would be good to fix your face bug issue. As a general rule, you should have any mods which edit NPC records not related to appearance, above your NPC appearance changing mods. These are mainly AIO, weapon, and weapon, and armour mods. That way, worse case scenario, the NPC won't have the new items, or AI, but will at least look right in game.
If it's a quest mod, then it may cause issues, because those edits might be crucial for the quest to progress. This situation isn't that common, as most quest mods add new NPCs, but you would be better off patching them, or having the quest mod below.
What I do, is install a NPC overhaul, then any patches for it, and then the next NPC overhaul, it's patches, and so on. That way you know each one is patched correctly. I don't use loot, but it may struggle with multiple patches for different appearance mods.
It's worth using the face colour fix mod, but yeah, as far as I know it only works for NPCs using vanilla face gen. The main use I think is to fix generic NPCs added by other mods. Don't think it affects my performance. I realise how intimidating patching can be, because I was intimidated by it for way to long, but it's not as bad as you think.
For starters it's difficult to do any damage, providing you save your changes to a new ESL flagged ESP. Worse case scenario, your patch doesn't work, and you've wasted time. Even if you accidently changed a mod, you can simply not save the changes. Even if you did that, you'd only have to reinstall the mod.
I'd recommend people to at least check their load orders in Xedit, you won't have full control as a modder, until you take that step. NPC records are an ideal starting point because they're simpler than some other types of mods to patch. Copy the record of the NPC with the desired appearance edits into a new plugin, then forward the edits made by other mods into that record. Don't touch anything related to appearance, even if it shows as a conflict with another mod, and you're golden. There's certain mods I won't patch, or maybe only as a last resort like lighting mods, because I don't understand them well enough. I've had some success, but sometimes make it worse.
Thanks for the pics. I've decided to redo a lot of my Whiterun, and Solitude mod. I want to do something special. Some will stay, maybe get some edits, some more so, and some replaced completely. I'll swap a few around to make them fit more appropriately. I'm happy with the Thieves guild one I did, I just hope it's not that popular due to options like Bijin existing for all the NPCs included, rather than people not liking it.
Cheers
NPC its better i think :-)