So, there's something possibly within the scope of your mod in Skyrim that's been bothering me for a while. The issue is the "ban on Argonians" in a few lines of dialogue at Windhelm. I think the dialogue is only with Scouts-Many-Marshes and Brunwulf Free-Winter.
As someone who plays a lot of Argonian characters, it can get very...awkward when having conversations about the ban when your character has no trouble at all getting inside the walls. You can visit the palace and chat with Ulfric. You can live in Hjerim. You can rise in the ranks of the Stormcloaks and become a city Thane. Aside from the occasional racist remark (to be expected in Skyrim in general), and Rolff's antics, no one seems to have an issue with you being in the city. (Interestingly, the Gray Quarter Dunmer can be more racist to your kind than the local Nords are. As an example, Suvaris Atheron intentionally insults the Argonian workers and, according to her logbook, starves them of their rations and uses skooma to manipulate them.)
The above issue is exacerbated further if you use cut content restoration mods like Windhelm Re-Cut or Cutting Room Floor, which might add: - Windhelm pit fans, some of whom are Argonians. - Argonians visiting and having full restored conversations in the Cornerclub. Scouts will even sort of defend the Nords (or at least correct the bartender) in one of these. - The cut character Sings-of-Dreams, a servant who works for the Cruel-Seas. (In the CK/xEdit, the NPC is no longer in Skyrim.esm's NPC list, but references to her can still be found in the vanilla game's relationships, for example.)
(Random aside, but if you do personal modding like I have, you might notice in the CK or xEdit, strangely enough, that Scouts-Many-Marshes even has a relationship rank of "friend" with Ulfric in vanilla Skyrim. I'm not sure of the exact gameplay implications, but this could mean that if you kill Ulfric publicly at the end of the Civil War questline, Scouts might be upset with you. It's very odd for a character who was the victim of a ban.)
I'm not even sure the ban is consistent with Stormcloak behavior in general. For example, if you take Morthal for the Stormcloaks, the new Stormcloak housecarl will be Teeba-Ei. It may also be, though, that Stormcloak engagement with Argonians is an inconsistent mess in vanilla.
Interesting NPCs and Citizens of Tamriel/EZPG also add some Argonian NPCs that enter Windhelm. These mods definitely aren't vanilla Skyrim, but you can see how the issue is worsened.
Regardless of mods installed, the biggest issue for me is the inconsistency if you're playing an Argonian main character. What are your thoughts? Do you think the dialogue about the Argonian ban might be something you could fix in your mod?
You bring up some very interesting points and I fully agree. I would love to adress this. But I may need some help finding the relevant lines to change/remove. If you could look them up, I'll see what I can do.
About Sings-Of-Dreams, there are more oddities about that cut character. Unknown G actually made a video about her. It's an interesting watch.
The lines I'm aware of at present, from my memory would be with Scouts-Many-Marshes and Brunwulf Free-Winter. Here's what I found on the UESP pages for the characters:
For Brunwulf, the lines show up if he becomes the new Windhelm Jarl. The dialogue is:
Player: Will you let the Argonians into the city? Brunwulf: "I'd like to, but it's not as simple as that. Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted. Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety. Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone."
(Imagine if, like me, you were playing an Argonian character in this conversation in the palace. The very awkward irony.)
For Scouts, his lines about the ban only show up if you take Windhelm for the Imperials. According to the UESP, the dialogue is:
Player: Are you glad to see Ulfric Stormcloak gone? Scouts: "You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."
Scouts' lines above are also inconsistent with his relationship rank with Ulfric (friend), and he might say those lines even while being mad at you and using negative relationship lines with you. A very bipolar experience. But that's an aside.
I'll keep an eye out and search around for any more mentions of the ban, but those might be the only ones.
With the above knowledge, and further thought, it is interesting to note that if you play an Argonian and side with the Stormcloaks, you might never once experience any interaction with a ban on your race in the game.
I looked into your tip on Sings-of-Dreams as well. I'm always into Elder Scrolls lore and cut/unfinished content stuff. It was fascinating. Thanks!
I wonder if another option to "fix" the issue, that might be less controversial for some players, could be to somehow condition out the lines so that they don't show up if the player is Argonian.
However, that would be assuming that somehow the player's mere presence somehow magically broke the ban or caused it to never exist, so I'm unsure. Personally, it's easier on my brain logic to assume the ban never existed to begin with.
It's just...really really strange to only ever hear about a ban on Argonians if you take the city for the Imperials, just for the new Jarl to decide to not only first mention the ban, but to keep the ban. Regardless of if the player character he's talking to is Argonian or not.
In the player experience, if the player is non-Argonian, the situation for the Argonians might actually seem worse under the Imperials since a previously never-mentioned ban is now explicit and upheld. If the player is Argonian, the conversation is outright contradictory.
I should also mention that the above would also be an issue if the player has Derkeethus, an Argonian, as a follower, even if they aren't Argonian themselves. I often did back in my pre-modding Skyrim days, especially since in vanilla he's bugged to be essential and can't die to rock or fire traps like most other followers can.
Is the mod compatible with "More Dialogue Options" and "At Your Own Pace - Companions"?
TESEdit shows conflicting records for both, but I'm not sure if these are completely resolvable with load order sorting. Particularly for AYOP Companions, since I seem to be missing dialogue options with Aela from that mod, even though I placed AYOP latter in the load order.
More Dialogue Options seems to have some overlap with this mod and may not need a patch, though again, I can't tell just from TESEdit.
EDIT: Also conflicts with Guard Dialogue Overhaul, but I think these conflicts are resolvable with loading GDO after this mod.
I created a patch that seems to be working by disabling "NGCDT_Quest_AelaControlScript" quest and reverting all Companion dialogue to vanilla, esentially removing all Companion related tweaks the from NGCDT. Then simply allowing AYOP Companions/Misc Dialogue Edits/More Dialogue Options esps to overwrite and forward their own edits.
This approach is simple, and may not retain some NGCDT edits that may not conflict, but may be more consistent with AYOP and seems to be working well enough.
TBH, it needs a proper patch, instead of deleting stuff like that. Although, I have no plans to make patches for "More Dialogue Options", "At Your Own Pace - Companions" or "Guard Dialogue Overhaul". In order to keep my sanity, I have to draw the line somewhere. I can't and won't be patching any and all potential mods that could be conflicting. I rather spend my time working on creating mods, instead of this endless cycle of patching the entirety of Nexus.
Of course, I understand and fully accept Your stance. The conflicts in other mods I mentioned are very minor, and do not break anything. Misc Dialogue Edits has a patch for Your mod that I have overlooked.
My solution for AYOP Companions works well enough for my own game, but I recognize and respect Your stance on the matter and Your priorities.
I have a suggestion if feasible. I started a new playthrough recently and I noticed that the guards often comment the line "My cousin's out fighting dragons, and what do I get? Guard duty." Which on it's own is completely fine, however I find this quite silly when they say that line while standing right next to the remains of a dragon that we literally just took down together. I wonder if there was a way to give a certain cooldown to that line after killing a dragon.
Regardless thanks anyway for your work! I really like the kind of mods you make.
I'd have to apply a script to all dragons. On death, it would trigger a magic effect on the player for a cooldown timer. I feel like that's too much for just one line of dialogue.
I've been thinking about this modification to Wuunferth the Unliving's dialogue:
He also says that the necromancers amulet once depicted a skull, while in fact, it still does: I know it well. Or at least, I've heard of it. I would wager that carving once depicted a skull. That is the Necromancer's Amulet, of legend. It appears you were at least half-right. There is necromancy at the heart of this."
You're right about this, and it has always bugged me. His words suggest that the carving is no longer recognizable as a skull, but the model of the necklace we get in the vanilla game is clear and unmistakable. However, removing only the word "once" doesn't entirely get rid of this suggestion. "I would wager that carving depicted a skull," still sends the same false message. Why does he need to wager for something obvious, and say "depicted" in a past tense?
This is all to say, would you consider removing that one sentence from his dialogue entirely?
I know it well. Or at least, I've heard of it. That is the Necromancer's Amulet of legend. It appears you were at least half right. There is necromancy at the heart of this.
I also fixed a couple tiny grammar errors from the vanilla line here, but you don't have to include that; just me being nitpicky.
Hey it's me again yet aNOTHER--this one's always bothered me. Saadia in the Bannered Mare almost constantly dismisses you at the end of dialogue with "now please, no more questions" in an almost anxious tone. To me, I always thought this line was bugged and supposed to be conditioned to only play during the actual My Time of Need quest after you've met with her upstairs. It's so weird for you to buy food from her and then she tells you to stop asking her questions.
Oh yeah! This has always bothered me too! She's basically making herself a suspect right off the bat. Like turning up at an active crime scene and announcing "I didn't do it!"
I wasn't able to expose both Faendal and Sven to Camilla with the Lovely Letter Alternate Routes patch. The dialogue for me to say "__ had a fake letter, too" only showed up after I disabled the patch and reloaded. Not really sure why, I'm not too savvy with dialogue conditions in SSEEdit.
Angeline Morrard in Solitude is referred to by her niece as Angeline, and by her shop's name, but in player dialogue for the quest No News is Good News she is referred to as "Angela," and also in at least one of Angeline's spoken lines, she calls herself Angela. To me, it's clear Angeline is her intended name, as this sounds much more Bretonic, so I feel the proper fix would be editing the player dialogue to call her Angeline and cutting/editing her one spoken line to remove her reference to herself as Angela.
Extremely nitpick-y suggestion but I feel like it'd fit at home with the theme of this mod: there's a dialogue option where you can ask Niranye in Windhelm how long she's been there, and she'll say "just got here from the Summerset Isles." What if there was a "days passed" condition which, after a certain threshold, blocked this dialogue option from appearing/changed her answer? silly, I know
215 comments
As someone who plays a lot of Argonian characters, it can get very...awkward when having conversations about the ban when your character has no trouble at all getting inside the walls. You can visit the palace and chat with Ulfric. You can live in Hjerim. You can rise in the ranks of the Stormcloaks and become a city Thane. Aside from the occasional racist remark (to be expected in Skyrim in general), and Rolff's antics, no one seems to have an issue with you being in the city. (Interestingly, the Gray Quarter Dunmer can be more racist to your kind than the local Nords are. As an example, Suvaris Atheron intentionally insults the Argonian workers and, according to her logbook, starves them of their rations and uses skooma to manipulate them.)
The above issue is exacerbated further if you use cut content restoration mods like Windhelm Re-Cut or Cutting Room Floor, which might add:
- Windhelm pit fans, some of whom are Argonians.
- Argonians visiting and having full restored conversations in the Cornerclub. Scouts will even sort of defend the Nords (or at least correct the bartender) in one of these.
- The cut character Sings-of-Dreams, a servant who works for the Cruel-Seas. (In the CK/xEdit, the NPC is no longer in Skyrim.esm's NPC list, but references to her can still be found in the vanilla game's relationships, for example.)
(Random aside, but if you do personal modding like I have, you might notice in the CK or xEdit, strangely enough, that Scouts-Many-Marshes even has a relationship rank of "friend" with Ulfric in vanilla Skyrim. I'm not sure of the exact gameplay implications, but this could mean that if you kill Ulfric publicly at the end of the Civil War questline, Scouts might be upset with you. It's very odd for a character who was the victim of a ban.)
I'm not even sure the ban is consistent with Stormcloak behavior in general. For example, if you take Morthal for the Stormcloaks, the new Stormcloak housecarl will be Teeba-Ei. It may also be, though, that Stormcloak engagement with Argonians is an inconsistent mess in vanilla.
Interesting NPCs and Citizens of Tamriel/EZPG also add some Argonian NPCs that enter Windhelm. These mods definitely aren't vanilla Skyrim, but you can see how the issue is worsened.
Regardless of mods installed, the biggest issue for me is the inconsistency if you're playing an Argonian main character. What are your thoughts? Do you think the dialogue about the Argonian ban might be something you could fix in your mod?
About Sings-Of-Dreams, there are more oddities about that cut character. Unknown G actually made a video about her. It's an interesting watch.
The lines I'm aware of at present, from my memory would be with Scouts-Many-Marshes and Brunwulf Free-Winter. Here's what I found on the UESP pages for the characters:
For Brunwulf, the lines show up if he becomes the new Windhelm Jarl. The dialogue is:
Player: Will you let the Argonians into the city?
Brunwulf: "I'd like to, but it's not as simple as that. Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted. Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety. Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone."
Source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter
(Imagine if, like me, you were playing an Argonian character in this conversation in the palace. The very awkward irony.)
For Scouts, his lines about the ban only show up if you take Windhelm for the Imperials. According to the UESP, the dialogue is:
Player: Are you glad to see Ulfric Stormcloak gone?
Scouts: "You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."
Source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Scouts-Many-Marshes
Scouts' lines above are also inconsistent with his relationship rank with Ulfric (friend), and he might say those lines even while being mad at you and using negative relationship lines with you. A very bipolar experience. But that's an aside.
I'll keep an eye out and search around for any more mentions of the ban, but those might be the only ones.
With the above knowledge, and further thought, it is interesting to note that if you play an Argonian and side with the Stormcloaks, you might never once experience any interaction with a ban on your race in the game.
I looked into your tip on Sings-of-Dreams as well. I'm always into Elder Scrolls lore and cut/unfinished content stuff. It was fascinating. Thanks!
However, that would be assuming that somehow the player's mere presence somehow magically broke the ban or caused it to never exist, so I'm unsure. Personally, it's easier on my brain logic to assume the ban never existed to begin with.
It's just...really really strange to only ever hear about a ban on Argonians if you take the city for the Imperials, just for the new Jarl to decide to not only first mention the ban, but to keep the ban. Regardless of if the player character he's talking to is Argonian or not.
In the player experience, if the player is non-Argonian, the situation for the Argonians might actually seem worse under the Imperials since a previously never-mentioned ban is now explicit and upheld. If the player is Argonian, the conversation is outright contradictory.
I should also mention that the above would also be an issue if the player has Derkeethus, an Argonian, as a follower, even if they aren't Argonian themselves. I often did back in my pre-modding Skyrim days, especially since in vanilla he's bugged to be essential and can't die to rock or fire traps like most other followers can.
TESEdit shows conflicting records for both, but I'm not sure if these are
completely resolvable with load order sorting. Particularly for AYOP
Companions, since I seem to be missing dialogue options with Aela from
that mod, even though I placed AYOP latter in the load order.
More Dialogue Options seems to have some overlap with this mod and may not
need a patch, though again, I can't tell just from TESEdit.
EDIT: Also conflicts with Guard Dialogue Overhaul, but I think these conflicts are resolvable with loading GDO after this mod.
Then simply allowing AYOP Companions/Misc Dialogue Edits/More Dialogue Options esps to overwrite and forward their own edits.
This approach is simple, and may not retain some NGCDT edits that may not conflict, but may be more consistent with AYOP and seems to be working well enough.
Although, I have no plans to make patches for "More Dialogue Options", "At Your Own Pace - Companions" or "Guard Dialogue Overhaul". In order to keep my sanity, I have to draw the line somewhere. I can't and won't be patching any and all potential mods that could be conflicting.
I rather spend my time working on creating mods, instead of this endless cycle of patching the entirety of Nexus.
My solution for AYOP Companions works well enough for my own game, but I recognize and respect Your stance on the matter and Your priorities.
All the best!
Regardless thanks anyway for your work! I really like the kind of mods you make.
This is all to say, would you consider removing that one sentence from his dialogue entirely?
Saadia in the Bannered Mare almost constantly dismisses you at the end of dialogue with "now please, no more questions" in an almost anxious tone. To me, I always thought this line was bugged and supposed to be conditioned to only play during the actual My Time of Need quest after you've met with her upstairs. It's so weird for you to buy food from her and then she tells you to stop asking her questions.
I've implemented all of your suggestions in 1.10, which I just uploaded.
Angeline Morrard in Solitude is referred to by her niece as Angeline, and by her shop's name, but in player dialogue for the quest No News is Good News she is referred to as "Angela," and also in at least one of Angeline's spoken lines, she calls herself Angela. To me, it's clear Angeline is her intended name, as this sounds much more Bretonic, so I feel the proper fix would be editing the player dialogue to call her Angeline and cutting/editing her one spoken line to remove her reference to herself as Angela.