While the basic idea isn't bad, I feel I should note that the Dark Brotherhood sometimes explicitly gets contracts that require a public - and as flashy as possible - assassination. The whole questline after the Night Mother tells you to find Motierre is just that: you are not expected, or indeed asked to, be stealthy, you NEED to make a scene of it and yourself. It's the whole reason behind publicly murdering Vittoria Vici, among others.
The Tenet you refer to is likely more about what *Astrid* does, ie, cavort with the enemy and reveal private info in an attempt to bring the downfall of an ally. That's a gigantic no-no, as is revealing any private business of the Brotherhood like, say, the names of its members (also something Astrid does when she divulges your identity to Maro), how they prefer to kill, any special poisons used (like the jarrin root), their targets, et cetera. It's not so much about 'not being seen' as it is about 'not letting the enemy know the Brotherhood's inner workings'.
That said, this would make a lot of sense for the Thieves' Guild, which does care about secrecy outside Riften since they lack Maven's support in the other Holds.
Just my two cents, because the basic idea isn't bad but seems to be more a Morag Tong thing than a DB thing. The Tong do want to be like wraiths, the DB doesn't care overmuch if you're seen while slaughtering. Blood spilled in secrecy pleases Sithis as much as blood wantonly shed in a massacre. Otherwise Arnbjorn and Festus wouldn't be Dark Brothers, lol.
In fact, Festus's existence more or less makes it clear this rule doesn't really apply. He doesn't use stealth, he literally walks up to the target, explodes them with magic and then flees like the wind. He tells you as much himself lol.
Thank you for writing this detailed response, I do appreciate it. I am glad that it is here, so people can choose whether they want to download the mod having considered your points. There is not much I can do based on this comment, obviously, but nevertheless it is good that you took the time to write it.
Didn't work for me. Whenever I tried to kill Grelod I used a variety of different tactics but whenever she was hit (even with the bonus sneak damage) the game would register me as spotted for about half a second then go back to being hidden. That fraction of a second is enough to fail the quest each and every time.
To be fair I am willing to blame the mod conflict for whatever is going on here.
i can't really understand why, but undetected sneak attacks or undetected fury spells on grelod always gives me the "fail" message box, i am so stuck but i don't want to unistall the mod, what's the deal here?
No matter if I use a fury spell and a guard kills her, sneak attack kill (It shows me sneak attack x damage) It always gives me the you feel a sense of failure message astrid always attacks me in my sleep
I LOVE mods like this. They remind me of Might & Magic 2 Gates to Another World. I played the Sega Genesis version and during that it would have small pop up windows sometimes for when an Enemy found you, or you haphazardly stumbled into a Den of Pit Vipers. I liked those small windows popping up because even with the flat graphics the really good animation, it made the world feel open and alive.
I like the "You just lost the opportunity of a Lifetime" message you provided too. Real neat. This is a definite must add, and endorsed. Thanks.
Edit: May I please have a patch for EFM? Or just give me the instructions and I will do it myself.
So I poked around a little, and it seems like the patch should work for the EFM version as well. Please let me know if any issues come up, this is nowhere near my area of expertise (I tend to stay away from graphics mods).
i think this makes the game much more fun and we dont end up with some berserker as the best assasin in Tamriel. neat. just wish sneak was not so retarded in Skyrim. if anyone would recommend a mod to overhaul/fix sneak, i would appreciate it.
Yeah this is what I got too. Makes sneaking a whole lot harder. I just wish there was a mod that could allow you to hide in bushes as I have bush/grass mods that are big enough that my character should be able to hide in them.
Honestly, a lot of what this mod presents makes perfect sense. Any sensible assassin's guild should play mostly stealthy in order to get contracts done as discreetly as possible. Any assassin getting caught should be a serious punishment because getting caught puts the rest of the guild at risk. If the assassin has been put in prison, he should be assassinated quickly to avoid him/her exposing information to the guards on the dark brotherhood. It's unforgiving but makes perfect sense.
This mod, combined with realistic ai detection and some of my other stealth mods, should make the dark brotherhood a lot more fun and exciting. I would suggest anyone to get whatever sensible sneak mods they can to make this experience a lot more immersive. I also got master of disguise which I can use to make my character look like a guard and then I can go and assassinate the target.
On the one hand, there are no literal conflicts, as the guard is not you and so his killing Grelod will not trigger my rejection stuff, thereby allowing the quests to continue as normal, at which you point you can kill Astrid in the shed as that mod intended. On the other hand, if you would like me to make a patch for this mod, I don't think it would be the worst idea for the guard to trigger the rejection, so you can destroy the DB that way.
EDIT: I just remembered the 30 Sneak thing. If you have less than 30 Sneak, then even with the guard you will be rejected. So I'm thinking a patch might be called for here.
i'm confused about the intended behavior of this patch: is grelod getting killed by proxy supposed to be underhanded enough to get your audience with astrid or is it supposed to make the brotherhood angry at you?
The patch makes it so that alerting the guard makes the brotherhood angry and reject you. After all, you are playing the role of "law-abiding citizen," who is not even willing to kill someone this wretched.
it's probably fuckery caused by me installing this mid-game, but the rejection pop-up wouldn't show up after the guard killed grelod. i tried beating her up myself and the message worked then. i'm gonna try doing this on a clean save and see if it works then
EDIT: even on a clean save, it only fails when the guard kills her if you don't meet the sneak requirement. i tried changing it on my main save and it worked there too. is that intended?
i tried it again on a clean save, both meeting and not meeting the sneak requirement, with as few mods aside from the relevant ones as possible and from what i can tell the guard option now triggers the failure state properly now. thanks for looking into this so quickly, even if it was such a small thing
If you're confused about all the stuff happening with the patch file, it's because I accidentally used the acronym ILO instead of ILA everywhere, and I've been trying to stamp it out.
38 comments
The Tenet you refer to is likely more about what *Astrid* does, ie, cavort with the enemy and reveal private info in an attempt to bring the downfall of an ally. That's a gigantic no-no, as is revealing any private business of the Brotherhood like, say, the names of its members (also something Astrid does when she divulges your identity to Maro), how they prefer to kill, any special poisons used (like the jarrin root), their targets, et cetera. It's not so much about 'not being seen' as it is about 'not letting the enemy know the Brotherhood's inner workings'.
That said, this would make a lot of sense for the Thieves' Guild, which does care about secrecy outside Riften since they lack Maven's support in the other Holds.
Just my two cents, because the basic idea isn't bad but seems to be more a Morag Tong thing than a DB thing. The Tong do want to be like wraiths, the DB doesn't care overmuch if you're seen while slaughtering. Blood spilled in secrecy pleases Sithis as much as blood wantonly shed in a massacre. Otherwise Arnbjorn and Festus wouldn't be Dark Brothers, lol.
In fact, Festus's existence more or less makes it clear this rule doesn't really apply. He doesn't use stealth, he literally walks up to the target, explodes them with magic and then flees like the wind. He tells you as much himself lol.
To be fair I am willing to blame the mod conflict for whatever is going on here.
Great mod but I won't be using it.
I like the "You just lost the opportunity of a Lifetime" message you provided too. Real neat. This is a definite must add, and endorsed. Thanks.
Edit: May I please have a patch for EFM? Or just give me the instructions and I will do it myself.
just wish sneak was not so retarded in Skyrim. if anyone would recommend a mod to overhaul/fix sneak, i would appreciate it.
This mod, combined with realistic ai detection and some of my other stealth mods, should make the dark brotherhood a lot more fun and exciting. I would suggest anyone to get whatever sensible sneak mods they can to make this experience a lot more immersive. I also got master of disguise which I can use to make my character look like a guard and then I can go and assassinate the target.
EDIT: I just remembered the 30 Sneak thing. If you have less than 30 Sneak, then even with the guard you will be rejected. So I'm thinking a patch might be called for here.
EDIT: even on a clean save, it only fails when the guard kills her if you don't meet the sneak requirement. i tried changing it on my main save and it worked there too. is that intended?