I really like the idea of both this mod and Destroy The Dark Brotherhood. When you have played the game a gazillion time its great to have options that keep the game fresh and alive. And also, if you use the Legacy of the Dragonborn mod you want to get your hands on all the items, and I for one don't always want to play a evil character in order to do that.
While I know (I think I do anyway) that you wanted us to just have a simple option, I'm the kind of player that want to work for things. I want to struggle, than the reward is so much more satisfying. Clearing out the Flagon in less then a minut (on Legendary difficulty) and then paying 45 000 gold to get all the items, isn't a struggle. If you intend to work more on this mod, add more features (which I sincerely hope you will!) I for one would like to see more requirements to get the items. Why not let the Fence have some quests for you and as a reward he'll give you one or two items? One quest could just be a thief that got away with one item and you have to track him down. Another quest could be simpler, like the Fence want a enemy of his dead and as a reward you get another item (but with a peaceful option as well if your character is a good one - unless that enemy of the Fence is a murder or worse and really deserves to die).
The Destroy the Brotherhood was in my opinion much better. There was more stages and not just "clear out one room and you are done". I liked the idea of the decoy having the emperors robe, the notes that was left there to tell a story. However, I would like to get told ingame where to go look for some of the items, not being forced to read the description on the modpage. That also goes for the Windshear. If it is mention ingame, then I apologise if I missed that.
All in all, good mods, both of them. Like I said, its great to have options. But I hope you add more stages that require more work from the player. That would really bring this mod from being good to being great. As they stands today I don't think I'll use them on my next playtrough.
Thanks for the feedback. I agree, the current mod is quite simplistic. It started as me just wanting to give myself a way to get the items in game, then I figured I'd upload it to share. Keep in mind I was very much a beginner when I worked on this. I'm sure it shows in a couple of areas. Unfortunately, when compared to destroying the Dark Brotherhood, this questline is much more restrictive in giving the player options. A lot of the items in the questline are locked behind Thieves Guild exclusive areas. They're also in very illegal areas which is an issue for good characters. That Dwemer ruin at the end also has some annoying quest triggers to deal with. I think if I were to expand this mod, the bare minimum I would add is a way to join/destroy the Nightingales, add a quest given by Mjoll related to Goldenglow Estate so the player has reason to go there, and a quest related to the Honningbrew Meadery (since the original owner is known to be a bad person). I'd also like to allow access to the Dwemer ruin, I'd just have to juggle all those annoying quest triggers. That would just leave Calcemo's Wizard tower and the East Empire Warehouse to worry about. Hell, just talking about this I have an idea considering the Twighlight Sepulcher and the Nightingales. Maybe I will get back to expanding on this mod, since it's a very popular mod wanted for SE, and it's already out so improving it would likely be better. Might incorporate your ideas of the fence giving some smaller quests to get some of the items. As for the Dark Brotherhood mod, I can just add some rumors to the local inn mentioning the Brinehammer and Windshear when it's relevant. Not sure how to talk about Muiri's Ring and the Signed Uncommon Taste without it being really obvious.
Regarding Muiri's Ring: If you kill Alain Dufont without having that quest, even if you're not in the Thieves Guild, you'll eventually get a note from a from her, saying "come see me" and you get a reward for killing him. "Don't ask me how I know its you" or something like that she says and that's just lazy writing. But I guess in a world of dragons, magic and gods of all sorts, anything is possible and therefore believable. So that's one way of getting the ring to the player. Or other items tied to the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood quest lines that are quest rewards from non-members of those factions.
The only reason, really, to get that ring is for the museum in LotD, and if you have that mod, you need to go Raldbthar anyway since its a part of the Lost To The Ages quest. And if you don't want to do that quest you probably don't have LotD (or don't care about filing it to 100%) so then it doesn't matter. Its (almost) impossible to cover all the bases anyway. If you manage to do just that you have probably succeeded in doing some lazy writing. (I'm no expert but I'm working on my second novel, a movie script and some short stories and been reading and writing my whole life so I know a little about it.)
I don't know the first thing about modding (only done som small patches for myself) but for the items that are locked behind exklusive areas, especially if you are playing a good character, would it be possible for the Fence to tell the player about those items, where they can be found and let the player get the items a non-violent way? Like buying them from the owner (I'm thinking about the Bee in a Jar for example) or sneak in and steal them. At least you wont end upp killing someone. After all, if you want to play as a good character (i.e. not a murderer of innocents) there are mods out there to let you knock people out. So if you as a player really are in to role-playing, there is always that option. But then again, you should make the mod work as is, not depending on other mod. And like I said, its impossible to cover all the bases and making every gamer with whatever code of ethic they have while playing, happy.
I tend to rant while I'm somewhat drunk (just had my 2nd shot of whiskey) so I'll stop now. But I'll end up saying what I've already said; I really hope you expand on these two mods, adding more stages/quests, making it more challenging. To get the role playing experience you need options and unfortunate ly its up to you modders to fix that since Bethesda dropped the ball.
/end rant, pouring myself a third and finally whiskey
That might be a good idea for Muiri's ring so the player doesn't just have to steal it. I might add that later among other things if I think about them. I'm going to fix a few things with that mod first, then focus on this one. As for the quest exclusive areas, I should in theory be able to disable some triggers. For one, the magical forcefield around Goldenglow estate has got to go. I think I'm going to go with my original idea of having Mjoll have the player investigate the place (considering it's heavily associated with Maven). You're also right I can't please everyone, but I like to make things as open ended as I possibly can without making it too complicated. That's why I made the Brotherhood mod, to be more open ended than the vanilla one. But that's also why I just have the player kill the Thieves Guild, so it's not too complicated.
In any case, I'll definitely be working to expand this one. Not sure how I'll reasonably expand the Brotherhood one, but we'll see.
Do you have the latest version? I added quest markers to everyone if you're stuck. Just keep in mind there are 3 topside, 5 in the flagon, and 6 in the cistern, so 14 total. Rune or Vipir like to hide in that training room in the cistern sometimes. I won't add a list here though, check the wiki if you're REALLY stuck.
Thank you for making this mod. It's definitely the best mod out there for destroying the Thieves Guild, and the only one you don't have to port yourself to SE lol. None of the other destroy the thieves guild mods were working well for me. I like how the quest giver is Bersi Honey-Hand, and the dialogue added fits into the game perfectly. I only wish you could talk to Mjoll after you destroy the thieves guild and tell her that you've destroyed them. If you happen to destroy the guild before talking to her she will still complain about them as if they exist. If the player was able to talk to her about destroying them, it could give an even greater sense that they did something that was a big deal. Maybe she could even offer you a little gold or something. At the very least remove her dialogue about the Guild after they have been destroyed. Or, you could even ask for her help when you go to destroy them. It's up to you, but she should be involved somehow because she is "Riften's protector" and would want the Thieves Guild taken out. If you added that, this mod would be perfect to me. Thanks again for making this mod, I was so happy when I saw this show up in the search results.
I'm a bit busy in real life, though I might change Mjolls dialogue a bit. I probably won't have her help the player, partly because I'd have to figure out how to do that, partly because I don't think she should, considering she hasn't really done anything to the Thieves Guild on her own.
Of course. Even the smallest dialogue tweak would be awesome. Since you mentioned it, I do find it strange that after all the time Mjoll has been in Riften she hasn't done anything about the thieves guild at all. She just likes to complain lol. But I can imagine why she hasn't tried on her own. The whole city is corrupt.
Yeah, it's kind of funny when you think about it. Mjoll goes on about being Riften's protector, then this random person just walks in to do the dirty work basically on a whim. Kind of the RPG curse, where nothing really happens unless your character does it. I think the vanilla Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest is the worst example of that. Commander Maro already has the Sanctuary code, but the whole Penitus Oculatus don't do anything until your character kills Astrid (or you complete most of the Dark Brotherhood questline)? And they send you alone despite wanting them dead so badly?
Yeah, just short sightedness on Bethesda's part. I think they must've been wrapping up development when they added the ability to destroy the Dark Brotherhood because there's not much to it. It would be funny if the Penitus Oculatus tried sending some men first but then they all got slaughtered and that's why they need your help. You get there and there's dead Penitus Oculatus everywhere. Anyway, good luck on making your next mod. I'm exited for what you end doing with it.
Development time issues wouldn't surprise me. The source code is a bit messy for that quest with commented out...comments. My main goal for my next mod is just something simple that still makes sense, gives the player what they miss out on, and doesn't sort of "lock" them into doing work for the Imperials when their character could be either neutral or a diehard Stormcloak.
"Why can we kill Maul if we can't kill Maven? That was honestly just an oversight on my part, I forgot he could become housecarl. In theory, it should be ok though. He doesn't seem to do anything important besides act as a guard." Aside from the above statement, I run into another issue with Maul ... "Bring the Unusual Gem to an appraiser" quest doesn't work anymore since he is dead.
This isn't the right place to talk about this, please report it as a bug in the future. Anyway, the fence NPC who shows up in the Flagon after killing the guild can help you with the unusual gem. He essentially replaces Vex and Maul.
A few suggestions: 1) you do know that you can fail the first Brynjolf's assignments, right? You can accept to try and frame Brand Shei, then leave the area, and once you come back, Brynjolf should be waiting for you (don't remember if it's on the market or inside the Bee and Barb) and tell you off for disregarding his mission. I always used to do this when playing the oldrim version, for one to avoid getting a bounty from the guards (which SHOULD happen, realistically, since the guild/Maven has the Riften guards in their pockets), but also because in my first attempts using the oldrim mod, I'd kill Brynjolf in the market, only for him to reappear, dead, and with clothes changed to the guild master armor once I'd go down to the flagon (vanilla scripts acting I suppose). Anyway, even if that's not mandatory (obviously), I think there should be an option for those who choose to go along with his scheme, just to leave him hanging by himself like a fool, and then take the fight to the underground to avoid the guards. 2) would be wonderful if, instead of killing everybody in the cistern/flagon, we could find and follow clues to chase and fight both Karliah, in Snow veil sanctum, (then obtaining the Nightingale bow from her body), and Mercer in Irkngthand (first finding clues in his house, then obtaining the rest of his stuff - guild master armor, amulet of articulation, skeleton key, perhaps?). It would make things more seamlessly integrated into the world, plus give is the oportunity to explore 2 dungeons that the game doesn't send us there otherwise (I figure just this 2 places makes sense, since all other thieves guild quests are typical thief jobs, while those other 2 are basic dungeon crawling, fit for any type of character build and morality). Anyway, these are my two cents on this, and things I always wished someone would implement. Oh, and, congratulations on your mod, and thank you for it. Haven't tried it yet, but I definetly will sometime in the future.
For point 1: I originally considered something akin to that, however, my problem is possible issues where quests don't disappear in the journal, or the player gets added to the guild faction even though they're planning on murdering everyone. I might toy with the idea in the future (and likely have to make more aggressive edits to existing quests), but for now, I just wouldn't go along with his scheme.
For point 2: The quick answer is simplicity/intent. My intent was to just slaughter the guild because "I" wanted to first, but that's also the simplest thing to create. There are so many triggers and weird nonsense just related to Irkinghand. I actually was planning to let players explore it, but the eyes don't exist there unless the quest starts, and if you go there the quest starts by itself once you reach the second area. It's a little beyond the scope of the mod and my current abilities. I could probably have some stuff enable or disable, but...eh. You can still explore Snow Veil using this mod, just not beyond the claw door (since the player has no way to open it). I like the idea of a more engaging questline, but it's just not something I want to do right now. MAYBE sometime if I learn enough about modding, I have the idea, and the drive to do so, but I definitely make no promises. It'd definitely have to be its own mod though since some people just want something quick and simple. As of now, I'm focused on making sure this one works, I didn't miss anything, and small features to be added or changed. On the bright side, you made me realize I forgot to add the amulet of articulation to the item bundle, so that'll be added in the next update.
Conflicts with Cutting Room Floor, which appears to restore a quest, and sets Dirge to essential for this. I had no problems killing Brynjolf, Vekel the Man, and Sapphire.
Immersive Wenches and Interesting NPCs add Thieves Guild members (?) in Riften. I left them alone, but their presence destroys the immersion. The wenches don't fight back, but flee and beg for mercy. One is a Vampire (?) fence/merchant who will sell to your PC even if you kill the guild members next to her at the Ragged Flagon. The Khajit thief (Gnives) added by Interesting NPCs isn't initially hostile, and will converse with the PC in the mod's usual ironic style. He will fight (and is non essential) if hit by your spells or weapons. He's apparently recruitable even if you kill the in game Guild members.
Thanks for this mod! I'm really tired of being forced by game writers and designers to recruit/tolerate/assist thieves (the worst being that David "genocide and dimwitted, gullible, incompetent manchildren of hereditary privilege are adorable and fun" Gaider force fed, nauseatingly cutesy/whiney/amoral non sister of my elven/half elven PC, named "your sister Imoen"), vampires, werewolves, and assassins in CRPGs, and relying on them for training in stealth and marksman skills!!
Hey, I'm glad you like the mod! Stay tuned for training, I'll probably set the current expert trainers to become masters after killing the guild (just for convenience and so I don't have to make/explain the presence of new NPCs). I'm currently taking a break for the holidays though, so it'll be a few days or so.
For Cutting Room Floor, please give me the name of the quest if you can. I personally run that mod too and had no issues, but that may also be because I didn't start the quest. I also loaded my mod at the bottom of my load order during testing, so maybe it had something to do with that. Could be a different mod too, I don't see any edits to Dirge's actor base by Cutting Room Floor. I'll probably just have Sapphire and Dirge set as killable in my scripts in a new update, just on the off chance a different mod makes them essential. I'm also pondering completely forgoing aliases and just having things contained in scripts, so I don't have to worry about possible alias fill failure in the future, but uh, easier said than done.
As for the wenches, I think it's ok the wenches run screaming (they're just working for coin after all). I don't forsee a compatibility patch, just not my type of mod. For Interesting NPCs, I MAY make a patch since it seems like an interesting mod I may use myself, but I make no promises currently. You could always just remove or disable their references using SSEEdit. Unless they're attached to a bunch of quests or something, it'll probably be ok, but always exercise caution if you go that route. I think in terms of compatibility, I'm going to focus on general compatibility for now (i.e. making sure other mods don't suddenly break my mod), as opposed to dedicated compatibility patches.
Wouldn't it be better if you provide some diversity? I was always thrown back from Destroy TG mods because i didn't liked mindless slaughter of everyone. These are just thieves, not assassins like DB. Some could be protected and pardoned by Maven and Anuriel, relocating them to BB house or Mistveil, some could be banished, arrested, some captured and executed (not by your hand), some could went into hiding... you know... just without DB going in and murdering everybody equally.
You could also share some spoils with other npc's. Mjoll could become Thane after the deed is done.
The simple answer is that I don't want to put in the effort of making/testing that. I made this mod for myself first, and I have a different project already in mind. I always saw the guild more as organized thugs as opposed to thieves. They steal from everyone, beat up people who don't pay, you can constantly murder people on the main jobs, etc. That's just how I feel about it. Simply killing the guild is also way easier from a design standpoint. You make some dialogue, a quest, set the members killable, reward the player, and boom, done. Everything else is gravy (and took the most time to make).
I do agree that some diversity would be nice though, as sometimes people don't just want to resort to murder first. If you really want that type of mod, I'd suggest trying to make it yourself, if you have the time/drive. I'm sure there are a fair few players like you who would appreciate an alternative way of breaking up the Guild. The creation kit can be tricky, and you may have to bash your head against it a little bit, but it's not TOO bad once you put some time into it. I would guess a total beginner could still make something like this in 2-4 weeks, though that depends on free time or previous knowledge. I can give some tips, though I'm still no expert modder. Just HAVE A PLAN. I had a loose plan going in about some thief who wanted the guild gone, but later scrapped it for Bersi wanting them dead instead. I also did things on a whim, it would have been smarter if I planned and listed things from the start.
In the end, I'm sorry the mod isn't to your liking, but I simply can't cater to everyone
CommanderShrekard Agreed! Those "just thieves" don't even 'protect' the responsible, hard working citizens who contribute to society and Riften's economy with their work and the services that they provide, from rival/unaffiliated thieves! They keep most of Riften's citizens in a state of poverty and fear, and kill people who fail/refuse to comply with their arrogance (Brynjolf, Sapphire, and Dirge have attitudes a mile wide, which unfortunately, is why many players like them).
Even the Dark Brotherhood members have acquired high levels of skills needed in their trade; the Thieves Guild members are lazy, destructive parasites who depend on collective menace and violence to ply their trade. They are, after all, "just thieves".
MAYBE construct a believable way to obtain the Skeleton Key
Might I suggest that by simply killing Mercer Frey one could believably acquire the Skeleton Key. Seeing as he is the one in possession of it, it SHOULD be on his body when looted after he's been killed.
I actually considered that. While it's pretty believable it could be on his person, one could also suppose he stashes it somewhere when he's at the guild, just in case. In the end, it's mostly a game balance issue for me. If the player normally has to go through most of the Guild questline to obtain the Skeleton Key, then later give it up to actually complete the questline, it seems a bit too cheap to just give them the Key for a somewhat difficult battle that they could probably cheese at level 1 if they try hard enough. That's why I have the player spend a lot of gold to get the questline's loot. I originally gave the Key to the player while purchasing the loot bundle, but the way I explain the fence acquiring those items, it doesn't make sense he'd have the Key, plus the balance issue I explained earlier. In any case, I changed my wording on that sentence to reflect this, though I do appreciate the interest in the mod and the suggestion.
Feedback and Suggestions (28 comments)
While I know (I think I do anyway) that you wanted us to just have a simple option, I'm the kind of player that want to work for things. I want to struggle, than the reward is so much more satisfying. Clearing out the Flagon in less then a minut (on Legendary difficulty) and then paying 45 000 gold to get all the items, isn't a struggle. If you intend to work more on this mod, add more features (which I sincerely hope you will!) I for one would like to see more requirements to get the items. Why not let the Fence have some quests for you and as a reward he'll give you one or two items? One quest could just be a thief that got away with one item and you have to track him down. Another quest could be simpler, like the Fence want a enemy of his dead and as a reward you get another item (but with a peaceful option as well if your character is a good one - unless that enemy of the Fence is a murder or worse and really deserves to die).
The Destroy the Brotherhood was in my opinion much better. There was more stages and not just "clear out one room and you are done". I liked the idea of the decoy having the emperors robe, the notes that was left there to tell a story. However, I would like to get told ingame where to go look for some of the items, not being forced to read the description on the modpage. That also goes for the Windshear. If it is mention ingame, then I apologise if I missed that.
All in all, good mods, both of them. Like I said, its great to have options. But I hope you add more stages that require more work from the player. That would really bring this mod from being good to being great. As they stands today I don't think I'll use them on my next playtrough.
Unfortunately, when compared to destroying the Dark Brotherhood, this questline is much more restrictive in giving the player options. A lot of the items in the questline are locked behind Thieves Guild exclusive areas. They're also in very illegal areas which is an issue for good characters. That Dwemer ruin at the end also has some annoying quest triggers to deal with.
I think if I were to expand this mod, the bare minimum I would add is a way to join/destroy the Nightingales, add a quest given by Mjoll related to Goldenglow Estate so the player has reason to go there, and a quest related to the Honningbrew Meadery (since the original owner is known to be a bad person). I'd also like to allow access to the Dwemer ruin, I'd just have to juggle all those annoying quest triggers. That would just leave Calcemo's Wizard tower and the East Empire Warehouse to worry about. Hell, just talking about this I have an idea considering the Twighlight Sepulcher and the Nightingales. Maybe I will get back to expanding on this mod, since it's a very popular mod wanted for SE, and it's already out so improving it would likely be better. Might incorporate your ideas of the fence giving some smaller quests to get some of the items.
As for the Dark Brotherhood mod, I can just add some rumors to the local inn mentioning the Brinehammer and Windshear when it's relevant. Not sure how to talk about Muiri's Ring and the Signed Uncommon Taste without it being really obvious.
The only reason, really, to get that ring is for the museum in LotD, and if you have that mod, you need to go Raldbthar anyway since its a part of the Lost To The Ages quest. And if you don't want to do that quest you probably don't have LotD (or don't care about filing it to 100%) so then it doesn't matter. Its (almost) impossible to cover all the bases anyway. If you manage to do just that you have probably succeeded in doing some lazy writing. (I'm no expert but I'm working on my second novel, a movie script and some short stories and been reading and writing my whole life so I know a little about it.)
I don't know the first thing about modding (only done som small patches for myself) but for the items that are locked behind exklusive areas, especially if you are playing a good character, would it be possible for the Fence to tell the player about those items, where they can be found and let the player get the items a non-violent way? Like buying them from the owner (I'm thinking about the Bee in a Jar for example) or sneak in and steal them. At least you wont end upp killing someone. After all, if you want to play as a good character (i.e. not a murderer of innocents) there are mods out there to let you knock people out. So if you as a player really are in to role-playing, there is always that option. But then again, you should make the mod work as is, not depending on other mod. And like I said, its impossible to cover all the bases and making every gamer with whatever code of ethic they have while playing, happy.
I tend to rant while I'm somewhat drunk (just had my 2nd shot of whiskey) so I'll stop now. But I'll end up saying what I've already said; I really hope you expand on these two mods, adding more stages/quests, making it more challenging. To get the role playing experience you need options and unfortunate ly its up to you modders to fix that since Bethesda dropped the ball.
/end rant, pouring myself a third and finally whiskey
As for the quest exclusive areas, I should in theory be able to disable some triggers. For one, the magical forcefield around Goldenglow estate has got to go. I think I'm going to go with my original idea of having Mjoll have the player investigate the place (considering it's heavily associated with Maven). You're also right I can't please everyone, but I like to make things as open ended as I possibly can without making it too complicated. That's why I made the Brotherhood mod, to be more open ended than the vanilla one. But that's also why I just have the player kill the Thieves Guild, so it's not too complicated.
In any case, I'll definitely be working to expand this one. Not sure how I'll reasonably expand the Brotherhood one, but we'll see.
I won't add a list here though, check the wiki if you're REALLY stuck.
Also thanks! I've always wanted this kind of mod!
edit: turned everything off in journal and found the missing guy was wandering around the docks. slayed him and finished the quest!
I probably won't have her help the player, partly because I'd have to figure out how to do that, partly because I don't think she should, considering she hasn't really done anything to the Thieves Guild on her own.
My main goal for my next mod is just something simple that still makes sense, gives the player what they miss out on, and doesn't sort of "lock" them into doing work for the Imperials when their character could be either neutral or a diehard Stormcloak.
That was honestly just an oversight on my part, I forgot he could become
housecarl. In theory, it should be ok though. He doesn't seem to do
anything important besides act as a guard."
Aside from the above statement, I run into another issue with Maul ... "Bring the Unusual Gem to an appraiser"
quest doesn't work anymore since he is dead.
Anyway, the fence NPC who shows up in the Flagon after killing the guild can help you with the unusual gem. He essentially replaces Vex and Maul.
Thank you for your great work!
1) you do know that you can fail the first Brynjolf's assignments, right? You can accept to try and frame Brand Shei, then leave the area, and once you come back, Brynjolf should be waiting for you (don't remember if it's on the market or inside the Bee and Barb) and tell you off for disregarding his mission. I always used to do this when playing the oldrim version, for one to avoid getting a bounty from the guards (which SHOULD happen, realistically, since the guild/Maven has the Riften guards in their pockets), but also because in my first attempts using the oldrim mod, I'd kill Brynjolf in the market, only for him to reappear, dead, and with clothes changed to the guild master armor once I'd go down to the flagon (vanilla scripts acting I suppose). Anyway, even if that's not mandatory (obviously), I think there should be an option for those who choose to go along with his scheme, just to leave him hanging by himself like a fool, and then take the fight to the underground to avoid the guards.
2) would be wonderful if, instead of killing everybody in the cistern/flagon, we could find and follow clues to chase and fight both Karliah, in Snow veil sanctum, (then obtaining the Nightingale bow from her body), and Mercer in Irkngthand (first finding clues in his house, then obtaining the rest of his stuff - guild master armor, amulet of articulation, skeleton key, perhaps?). It would make things more seamlessly integrated into the world, plus give is the oportunity to explore 2 dungeons that the game doesn't send us there otherwise (I figure just this 2 places makes sense, since all other thieves guild quests are typical thief jobs, while those other 2 are basic dungeon crawling, fit for any type of character build and morality).
Anyway, these are my two cents on this, and things I always wished someone would implement.
Oh, and, congratulations on your mod, and thank you for it. Haven't tried it yet, but I definetly will sometime in the future.
For point 2: The quick answer is simplicity/intent. My intent was to just slaughter the guild because "I" wanted to first, but that's also the simplest thing to create. There are so many triggers and weird nonsense just related to Irkinghand. I actually was planning to let players explore it, but the eyes don't exist there unless the quest starts, and if you go there the quest starts by itself once you reach the second area. It's a little beyond the scope of the mod and my current abilities. I could probably have some stuff enable or disable, but...eh.
You can still explore Snow Veil using this mod, just not beyond the claw door (since the player has no way to open it).
I like the idea of a more engaging questline, but it's just not something I want to do right now. MAYBE sometime if I learn enough about modding, I have the idea, and the drive to do so, but I definitely make no promises. It'd definitely have to be its own mod though since some people just want something quick and simple. As of now, I'm focused on making sure this one works, I didn't miss anything, and small features to be added or changed.
On the bright side, you made me realize I forgot to add the amulet of articulation to the item bundle, so that'll be added in the next update.
Upvoted
Immersive Wenches and Interesting NPCs add Thieves Guild members (?) in Riften. I left them alone, but their presence destroys the immersion. The wenches don't fight back, but flee and beg for mercy. One is a Vampire (?) fence/merchant who will sell to your PC even if you kill the guild members next to her at the Ragged Flagon. The Khajit thief (Gnives) added by Interesting NPCs isn't initially hostile, and will converse with the PC in the mod's usual ironic style. He will fight (and is non essential) if hit by your spells or weapons. He's apparently recruitable even if you kill the in game Guild members.
Thanks for this mod! I'm really tired of being forced by game writers and designers to recruit/tolerate/assist thieves (the worst being that David "genocide and dimwitted, gullible, incompetent manchildren of hereditary privilege are adorable and fun" Gaider force fed, nauseatingly cutesy/whiney/amoral non sister of my elven/half elven PC, named "your sister Imoen"), vampires, werewolves, and assassins in CRPGs, and relying on them for training in stealth and marksman skills!!
For Cutting Room Floor, please give me the name of the quest if you can. I personally run that mod too and had no issues, but that may also be because I didn't start the quest. I also loaded my mod at the bottom of my load order during testing, so maybe it had something to do with that. Could be a different mod too, I don't see any edits to Dirge's actor base by Cutting Room Floor.
I'll probably just have Sapphire and Dirge set as killable in my scripts in a new update, just on the off chance a different mod makes them essential. I'm also pondering completely forgoing aliases and just having things contained in scripts, so I don't have to worry about possible alias fill failure in the future, but uh, easier said than done.
As for the wenches, I think it's ok the wenches run screaming (they're just working for coin after all). I don't forsee a compatibility patch, just not my type of mod.
For Interesting NPCs, I MAY make a patch since it seems like an interesting mod I may use myself, but I make no promises currently. You could always just remove or disable their references using SSEEdit. Unless they're attached to a bunch of quests or something, it'll probably be ok, but always exercise caution if you go that route.
I think in terms of compatibility, I'm going to focus on general compatibility for now (i.e. making sure other mods don't suddenly break my mod), as opposed to dedicated compatibility patches.
You could also share some spoils with other npc's. Mjoll could become Thane after the deed is done.
Simply killing the guild is also way easier from a design standpoint. You make some dialogue, a quest, set the members killable, reward the player, and boom, done. Everything else is gravy (and took the most time to make).
I do agree that some diversity would be nice though, as sometimes people don't just want to resort to murder first.
If you really want that type of mod, I'd suggest trying to make it yourself, if you have the time/drive. I'm sure there are a fair few players like you who would appreciate an alternative way of breaking up the Guild. The creation kit can be tricky, and you may have to bash your head against it a little bit, but it's not TOO bad once you put some time into it. I would guess a total beginner could still make something like this in 2-4 weeks, though that depends on free time or previous knowledge. I can give some tips, though I'm still no expert modder. Just HAVE A PLAN. I had a loose plan going in about some thief who wanted the guild gone, but later scrapped it for Bersi wanting them dead instead. I also did things on a whim, it would have been smarter if I planned and listed things from the start.
In the end, I'm sorry the mod isn't to your liking, but I simply can't cater to everyone
Even the Dark Brotherhood members have acquired high levels of skills needed in their trade; the Thieves Guild members are lazy, destructive parasites who depend on collective menace and violence to ply their trade. They are, after all, "just thieves".
Might I suggest that by simply killing Mercer Frey one could believably acquire the Skeleton Key. Seeing as he is the one in possession of it, it SHOULD be on his body when looted after he's been killed.
In the end, it's mostly a game balance issue for me. If the player normally has to go through most of the Guild questline to obtain the Skeleton Key, then later give it up to actually complete the questline, it seems a bit too cheap to just give them the Key for a somewhat difficult battle that they could probably cheese at level 1 if they try hard enough. That's why I have the player spend a lot of gold to get the questline's loot. I originally gave the Key to the player while purchasing the loot bundle, but the way I explain the fence acquiring those items, it doesn't make sense he'd have the Key, plus the balance issue I explained earlier.
In any case, I changed my wording on that sentence to reflect this, though I do appreciate the interest in the mod and the suggestion.