The added journal is out of bound in CotN (because the cell dimensions themselves are changed), I don't know if the same is true for those other mods. They don't look as extreme, so I imagine no patch is necessary.
The added journal is out of bound in CotN (because the cell dimensions themselves are changed), I don't know if the same is true for those other mods. They don't look as extreme, so I imagine no patch is necessary.
OK, so TGCo Dawnstar should be fine, but Snazzy Vesuius' House could potentially conflict (it removes the table where the journal is placed). I'll check it whenever i have a modlist set up again and get around to playing. Thanks!
Using this through the Apostasy modpack. After reforging the dagger myself, the quest doesn't update and I can't speak to Silus either. Pieces of the Past successfully fails so that's registering at least. Going the route of killing Silus and then trying to get the pieces on my own isn't working either, the pieces aren't there.
So if I just straight up kill Silus, what happens to the dagger fragments, if I don't use the forge dagger myself patch? Would the dagger fragments still be marked as quest items and can not be stored in containers? And will the pieces of the past quest gets auto failed as well?
So I actually don't change anything about how what happens to the dagger fragmens, just letting you reforge the razor if you collect them all.
What happens in vanilla; You can kill silus in the vanilla game too (its just not a dialogue option) and it fails the quest. The pieces stay in the world just not as quest items.
I let Silus go at the alter, but later at his home no dialogue option to convince Silus for reforge or get the razor pieces, only talk to get key from him.
However I still find it unbelievable that a mortal, even being a Dragonborn, can reforge a Daedric artefact on his/her own. The power of the Daedric Prince must be envolved in the process as a necessary requirement. Even in the Oblivion's Shivering Isles DLC the Daedric artefact needed such power to be recreated (the Staff of Sheogorath and the Font of Madness). The Daedra Hearts cannot contain such power by themselves. Therefore I'd wish you could find a way to somehow envolve the power of the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon in the process of reforging his Razor while still being able to save Silus.
The easiest way would be adding into the game an item/object that apparently contains Mehrunes' power (a "Mysterious Sigil Stone" for example). It could be mentioned as a requirement in Silus' Journal and in the reforging recipe and it could be placed inside the Mehrunes Dagon's Shrine guarded by Dremoras.
It could be also a sinister fountain, apparently filled with substance of Mehrunes' power (a "Dark Turbid Liquid"?) and added to the Mehrunes Dagon's Shrine instead. The player could fill a bottle with its liquid upon activating the fountain and use it as a required item in order to reforge the Razor.
But maybe you could find a more elegant solution of your own, if you would like to implement such requirement at all.
I think it's a matter of perspective. In my view by mortal hands it was destroyed, by mortal hands it can be rebuilt. Only to do so requires a truly masterful smith.
And there is an in-game example of a mortal repairing, or at least returning some function to a broken daedric artifact. In the azura questline you have the option of taking the broken star to Nelecar instead of Azura who repairs it. (Though in that case it becomes the Black star and not the original artifact yet it could be argued to be more powerful than the original.)
So it's a big no-no then? Well, it's your mod and your right to make it as you see fit. Good for me then that the possibility to reforge the Razor is optional in your mod.
You do realize that many of the Daedric artefacts are Dwarven made, right? So it's not far fetched to say that a dragonborn that gain lost knowledge by absorbing his fallen scaly brethren would be able to reforge a daedric artefact. Daedra are beings of change, not creation. They take mortal or aedric creations and twist them.
Yeah, some of the Daedric artefacts are Dwarven-made and therefore their physical form can be reforged indeed, but their unique "enchantments" still require the unique powers of the Daedric Princes, don't you think so? Otherwise the next thing to suppose is that the Heart of Lorkhan and Numidium/Akulakhan can also be recreated by the Dragonborn because of the Dwarves and the connection to the dragons.
Sorry, but I'm not convinced and still prefer not to reforge the Mehrunes Razor without his power, but you can do it in your game if you wish, of course.
"Otherwise the next thing to suppose is that the Heart of Lorkhan and Numidium/Akulakhan can also be recreated by the Dragonborn because of the Dwarves and the connection to the dragons."
That's literally comparing apples to oranges. Heart of lorkhan is the very heart of reality vs a blessing from a daedric prince that a very skilled enchanter can replicate (if not create something better, like the dwarves did on the daily basis). Some of the most powerful artefacts were mortal made (wraithguard and sunder for example) that outshined any daedric artefact so do you really think that a daedric artefact can't be reforged? I mean according to your logic (don't mean this in any disrespect ofc) the dragonborn do not have the power to warp reality at a whim, he doesn't shout fire out of thin air, It's not like the dragonborn have access to an entire realm with the sole purpose of safekeeping lost knowledge and thrown away concepts from the gods.........Oh wait, Apocrypha. I wouldn't be so quick to be so dismissive that someone (especially a dragonborn) wouldn't be able to reforge a daedric artefact, wilder things has happened in the Elderscrolls. The thu'um is literally God Speech and warps reality to the users will.
I'm not comparing them, I've literally said "the next thing to suppose", i.e. to imagine that it is possible as well.
"Some of the most powerful artefacts were mortal made (wraithguard and sunder for example) that outshined any daedric artefact"
- That's arguable. Wraithguard and Sunder you've mentioned actually are waning their power over time without the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dragonborn can't really do anything about it, at least according to the game lore and the vanilla game itself.
Yeah, the Dragonborn has some supernatural powers and Thu'um is a God Speech, but from which god does he/she have those powers? - Apparently only from one god of the pantheon of the 9 (8) Divines - particularly from Akatosh, because it was his gift to the mortals and the dragons (including Alduin) are his creation, and his only. But do you really believe that Akatosh has power over the Daedric Princes or at least can manipulate with their unique powers? I don't think so. If it would be true he would destroy or at least have subjugated some of them to his will long ago. But it did not happen. Moreover, some Daedric Princes still confront some gods of the pantheon of the 9 (8) Divines (Namira and Arkay for example) the same way as they confront each other (although often in a form of some cruel and pervert competition among their minions, like in stories about Sheogorath and Malacath for example).
So I don't believe that the Dragonborn has power from Akatosh over the unique magical essences of the Daedric artefacts, although I admit that their physical form can be reforged if the Mastery in Smithing is high enough and the required materials are available. But without the unique "enchantments" - the unique magical essences of the Daedric Princes - they would be just plain weapons without Daedric powers.
We literally see in-game Azura's Star changed by a ritual made by a Dunmer and connection severed from Azura. Whether you believe that "the Dragonborn has power from Akatosh over the unique magical essences of the Daedric artefacts" is kinda irrelevant. The power of the "thu'um" is tonal magic and can shape/re-shape reality. Akatosh may be the reason/source why dragons and dragonborn exist but in no way can he dictate how they use the thu'um to it's full advantage otherwise there would be no Miraak, no reason to kill Alduin, all dragons living in harmony with the mortal races. They are shards of time meaning dragons and true dragonborn are small fragments of Aka itself and therefore will exist with or without Akatosh approval. Akatosh didn't "bless" the dragons and true dragonborn with the thu'um, they inherited it by birth. The only known mortal blessed in lore by Akatosh is St. Alessia via pact. For every other known dragonborn we don't hear about a pact, they just exist, but I digress. I can understand why you would believe that a Dragonborn wouldn't be able to reforge a daedric artefact however once you looked into the lore of the thu'um and soul stacking (in the dragonborn case, dragon souls) then you would see how not-so-far-fetched this actually is.
- Where did you get that? There is nowhere said in the game that the Black Azura Star is actually severed from her. I think that Azura is aware, of course, that Nelacar has spoiled her artefact, which undoubtedly still had her power stored inside the Star at the moment, Nelacar just managed to change it so it traps now the black souls as well. I believe Azura just let it happen the same way as she let Malyn Varen do his foul sourcery with the Star previously. Her new "champion" has proved for her now to be false and the same miscreant as Malyn was. She knows perfectly well that eventually the Star will return to her Realm in a hundred of years or so and will be restored once again, as she says it if you complete the quest in her way.
"The power of the "thu'um" is tonal magic and can shape/re-shape reality."
- But what does it actually mean? It's vague and obscure, at least for me. Can Thu'um also re-shape the unique powers of the Daedric Princes? I doubt it. It can't be totally limitless and able to manipulate with the magical powers of different origin, such as the artefacts of the Daedric Princes. At least there is no such Shout in the vanilla game.
Yeah, Akatosh neither actually "blesses" the Dragonborns with his powers, nor he directly dictates how to use them and to what aim. Yeah, the Dragonborns are literally called the "Dragon-borns", because they were born capable to quickly learn the Shouts (unlike the Greybeards, who must study them for years), and learn them directly from the slain dragons, magical walls or other people who can pass the knowledge of the Shouts to them (the Greybeards again). But it doesn't mean that the source of such capability is not from Akatosh. IDK about Aka, I haven't found such information in the game, but Akatosh definitely can indirectly influence the fate of the Dragonborns whose aim is just to seize the power and make gods themselves. Look at the story of Jurgen Windcaller - the defeat of the Nords at the Red Mountain was a complete disaster for them and for him in particular. The same goes to Miraak - he attempted to seize power over Solstheim (at least), but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion.
"Where did you get that? There is nowhere said in the game that the Black Azura Star is actually severed from her."
Nelecar literally says that the star is cut off from Azura when you complete the ritual, Whether that's true or not is up in the air.
"I believe Azura just let it happen the same way as she let Malyn Varen do his foul sourcery with the Star previously."
Well do to the fact that in Oblivion Martin Septim morphed into the Avatar of Akatosh, kicking out every Daedra and banishing them from nirn forever I don't think Azura could've done anything even if she wanted to (same as Vaermina, Molag Bal, Namira, ect). Any Artefact on Nirn is at the mortal races disposal.
"IDK about Aka, I haven't found such information in the game"
Aka is Dragon Made Whole meaning when every shard of time (Alduin, Akatosh, Auriel, dragons and dragonborns) are placed together Aka (time itself) is made whole again. When a dragon or dragonborn slay one another they're actually merging together creating a bigger piece of the broken puzzle that is Aka. You're not going to find much in-game about Aka, this is deep lore and source material that you must actually read up. If you're not familiar with Aka then I'm going to assume that you didn't know that Alduin created Mehrune Dagon by cursing him when he was Leaper Demon King for hiding pieces of worlds during each Kalpa that Alduin consumes. This is an Aedra changing someone into a Daedra and I say this to give you an idea of just how broken the thu'um and shards of Aka actually are. The more souls that the Dragonborn absorb the bigger the shard he becomes (Soul Stacking)
" haven't found such information in the game, but Akatosh definitely can indirectly influence the fate of the Dragonborns whose aim is just to seize the power and make gods themselves"
No, he does not, ever. Dragons nature is to dominate every aspect of their life and everything, everyone around them (same as Akatosh who is head of the Pantheon).It's literally his will that his children inherit. If this were the case then Tiber Septim would've never became Talos the God.
"Look at the story of Jurgen Windcaller - the defeat of the Nords at the Red Mountain was a complete disaster for them and for him in particular."
These are mortal men, not dragonborn. The dragonborn can use the thu'um however they wish because it's a birthright (Greybeards says this themselves). The defeat of red mountain was because the nords were arrogant in believing that just because they wield the God Speech they were unstoppable and didn't plan well against people that were native to the land. Whether that the gods punished them or not is up in the air because it's hard to believe that the gods would punish nords when the Dunmer had the Daedra on their side, Kyne is literally the goddess of war (similiar figure to Freya, Gaia, and Skadi irl cultures). This could've well been Jurgen being sore that his master plan didn't work and needed an excuse. Even though they had the thu'um the thu'um is very limited to non dragonborn.
"The same goes to Miraak - he attempted to seize power over Solstheim (at least), but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion."
This had nothing to do with Akatosh. This was because of Miraaks own folly that got him into that situation (the same with Durnehviir in the soul cairn). And we see just how powerful he was then, again, a dragonborn taking over parts of a daedric realm and controlling an island on a different plane(t) simultaneously.
"but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion."
Miraak was not sent into Oblivion by the LDB, he was absorbed. Miraak, like the LDB, is a dragonborn and therefore a dragon by soul. Dragon souls can never be obtain by anyone, any being, or any realm unless they are a dragon them self. This is why he disintegrates like every other dragon, in fact, if you keep count of every soul that he steals from not only do they return to you when you kill him but you also get an extra (which is his soul).
Sorry, but let's stop this pointless debate, if you don't mind: obviously we have different points of view on the game lore and stay firm with personal opinions and beliefs in any case. Apart from that you refer to not officially confirmed game lore, don't you? That explains your opinion on the matter of the reforging Mehrunes Razor and other things. I see your points of view, thanks for the info, but sorry, can't say I agree with everything. I'm not going to react to every statement in your post, just notice that "Oblivion" and "oblivion" have different meanings, don't you think so?
I'm not a loremaster or anything but wasn't Volendrung, Umbra, and Spellbreaker all made by mortals? The shield was made by Shalidor, the sword was made by a witch, and the hammer was made by the Dwemmer. Personally I would consider a Dragonborn to be on par with them. Or is it something like, they were once regular artifacts that were empowered by the Daedra?
if i am to craft it whats the name of the item i can craft,, i already choose to craft, and my crafting is maxed out, but no options on the smith station
Looks very nice! Do I understand this correctly - you can follow Silus inside and then fail the Pieces of the Past quest by telling him to close the museum, before fetching the pieces? That would be ideal for my character.
66 comments
What happens in vanilla; You can kill silus in the vanilla game too (its just not a dialogue option) and it fails the quest. The pieces stay in the world just not as quest items.
However I still find it unbelievable that a mortal, even being a Dragonborn, can reforge a Daedric artefact on his/her own. The power of the Daedric Prince must be envolved in the process as a necessary requirement. Even in the Oblivion's Shivering Isles DLC the Daedric artefact needed such power to be recreated (the Staff of Sheogorath and the Font of Madness). The Daedra Hearts cannot contain such power by themselves. Therefore I'd wish you could find a way to somehow envolve the power of the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon in the process of reforging his Razor while still being able to save Silus.
The easiest way would be adding into the game an item/object that apparently contains Mehrunes' power (a "Mysterious Sigil Stone" for example). It could be mentioned as a requirement in Silus' Journal and in the reforging recipe and it could be placed inside the Mehrunes Dagon's Shrine guarded by Dremoras.
It could be also a sinister fountain, apparently filled with substance of Mehrunes' power (a "Dark Turbid Liquid"?) and added to the Mehrunes Dagon's Shrine instead. The player could fill a bottle with its liquid upon activating the fountain and use it as a required item in order to reforge the Razor.
But maybe you could find a more elegant solution of your own, if you would like to implement such requirement at all.
And there is an in-game example of a mortal repairing, or at least returning some function to a broken daedric artifact. In the azura questline you have the option of taking the broken star to Nelecar instead of Azura who repairs it. (Though in that case it becomes the Black star and not the original artifact yet it could be argued to be more powerful than the original.)
Sorry, but I'm not convinced and still prefer not to reforge the Mehrunes Razor without his power, but you can do it in your game if you wish, of course.
That's literally comparing apples to oranges. Heart of lorkhan is the very heart of reality vs a blessing from a daedric prince that a very skilled enchanter can replicate (if not create something better, like the dwarves did on the daily basis). Some of the most powerful artefacts were mortal made (wraithguard and sunder for example) that outshined any daedric artefact so do you really think that a daedric artefact can't be reforged? I mean according to your logic (don't mean this in any disrespect ofc) the dragonborn do not have the power to warp reality at a whim, he doesn't shout fire out of thin air, It's not like the dragonborn have access to an entire realm with the sole purpose of safekeeping lost knowledge and thrown away concepts from the gods.........Oh wait, Apocrypha. I wouldn't be so quick to be so dismissive that someone (especially a dragonborn) wouldn't be able to reforge a daedric artefact, wilder things has happened in the Elderscrolls. The thu'um is literally God Speech and warps reality to the users will.
- That's arguable. Wraithguard and Sunder you've mentioned actually are waning their power over time without the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dragonborn can't really do anything about it, at least according to the game lore and the vanilla game itself.
Yeah, the Dragonborn has some supernatural powers and Thu'um is a God Speech, but from which god does he/she have those powers? - Apparently only from one god of the pantheon of the 9 (8) Divines - particularly from Akatosh, because it was his gift to the mortals and the dragons (including Alduin) are his creation, and his only. But do you really believe that Akatosh has power over the Daedric Princes or at least can manipulate with their unique powers? I don't think so. If it would be true he would destroy or at least have subjugated some of them to his will long ago. But it did not happen. Moreover, some Daedric Princes still confront some gods of the pantheon of the 9 (8) Divines (Namira and Arkay for example) the same way as they confront each other (although often in a form of some cruel and pervert competition among their minions, like in stories about Sheogorath and Malacath for example).
So I don't believe that the Dragonborn has power from Akatosh over the unique magical essences of the Daedric artefacts, although I admit that their physical form can be reforged if the Mastery in Smithing is high enough and the required materials are available. But without the unique "enchantments" - the unique magical essences of the Daedric Princes - they would be just plain weapons without Daedric powers.
Yeah, Akatosh neither actually "blesses" the Dragonborns with his powers, nor he directly dictates how to use them and to what aim. Yeah, the Dragonborns are literally called the "Dragon-borns", because they were born capable to quickly learn the Shouts (unlike the Greybeards, who must study them for years), and learn them directly from the slain dragons, magical walls or other people who can pass the knowledge of the Shouts to them (the Greybeards again). But it doesn't mean that the source of such capability is not from Akatosh. IDK about Aka, I haven't found such information in the game, but Akatosh definitely can indirectly influence the fate of the Dragonborns whose aim is just to seize the power and make gods themselves. Look at the story of Jurgen Windcaller - the defeat of the Nords at the Red Mountain was a complete disaster for them and for him in particular. The same goes to Miraak - he attempted to seize power over Solstheim (at least), but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion.
Nelecar literally says that the star is cut off from Azura when you complete the ritual, Whether that's true or not is up in the air.
"I believe Azura just let it happen the same way as she let Malyn Varen do his foul sourcery with the Star previously."
Well do to the fact that in Oblivion Martin Septim morphed into the Avatar of Akatosh, kicking out every Daedra and banishing them from nirn forever I don't think Azura could've done anything even if she wanted to (same as Vaermina, Molag Bal, Namira, ect). Any Artefact on Nirn is at the mortal races disposal.
"IDK about Aka, I haven't found such information in the game"
Aka is Dragon Made Whole meaning when every shard of time (Alduin, Akatosh, Auriel, dragons and dragonborns) are placed together Aka (time itself) is made whole again. When a dragon or dragonborn slay one another they're actually merging together creating a bigger piece of the broken puzzle that is Aka. You're not going to find much in-game about Aka, this is deep lore and source material that you must actually read up. If you're not familiar with Aka then I'm going to assume that you didn't know that Alduin created Mehrune Dagon by cursing him when he was Leaper Demon King for hiding pieces of worlds during each Kalpa that Alduin consumes. This is an Aedra changing someone into a Daedra and I say this to give you an idea of just how broken the thu'um and shards of Aka actually are. The more souls that the Dragonborn absorb the bigger the shard he becomes (Soul Stacking)
" haven't found such information in the game, but Akatosh definitely can indirectly influence the fate of the Dragonborns whose aim is just to seize the power and make gods themselves"
No, he does not, ever. Dragons nature is to dominate every aspect of their life and everything, everyone around them (same as Akatosh who is head of the Pantheon).It's literally his will that his children inherit. If this were the case then Tiber Septim would've never became Talos the God.
"Look at the story of Jurgen Windcaller - the defeat of the Nords at the Red Mountain was a complete disaster for them and for him in particular."
These are mortal men, not dragonborn. The dragonborn can use the thu'um however they wish because it's a birthright (Greybeards says this themselves). The defeat of red mountain was because the nords were arrogant in believing that just because they wield the God Speech they were unstoppable and didn't plan well against people that were native to the land. Whether that the gods punished them or not is up in the air because it's hard to believe that the gods would punish nords when the Dunmer had the Daedra on their side, Kyne is literally the goddess of war (similiar figure to Freya, Gaia, and Skadi irl cultures). This could've well been Jurgen being sore that his master plan didn't work and needed an excuse. Even though they had the thu'um the thu'um is very limited to non dragonborn.
"The same goes to Miraak - he attempted to seize power over Solstheim (at least), but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion."
This had nothing to do with Akatosh. This was because of Miraaks own folly that got him into that situation (the same with Durnehviir in the soul cairn). And we see just how powerful he was then, again, a dragonborn taking over parts of a daedric realm and controlling an island on a different plane(t) simultaneously.
"but eventually was defeated by the Last Dragonborn and sent into the oblivion."
Miraak was not sent into Oblivion by the LDB, he was absorbed. Miraak, like the LDB, is a dragonborn and therefore a dragon by soul. Dragon souls can never be obtain by anyone, any being, or any realm unless they are a dragon them self. This is why he disintegrates like every other dragon, in fact, if you keep count of every soul that he steals from not only do they return to you when you kill him but you also get an extra (which is his soul).
Stopping when you've lost is probably wise.Simply telling somebody "you've lost" is probably unwise.
What was the point of your comment: a weird compliment or an odd way to express your personal disagreement?
Anyway I asked to stop the dispute simply because I was tired of it and this is not a forum for TES lore.
i already choose to craft, and my crafting is maxed out, but no options on the smith station