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Hello to all Skyrim fans. I did not check the post sections for several days after publishing the mod. I did not expect it to spur such a heated discussion. It is something unusual for me to find my modest work amidst such a tempest. From what I understand it is not the mod iteslf but the resoning behind it that causes most of the anger. You know, I grew up in a rather conservative society where we have a saying: "The man and the dog work outdoors, the woman and the cat - indoors". So I brought a little piece of my vision into the game. You are right: it is fantasy game with dragons and magic, and a woman CAN swing a hammer there. Still, it is a GAME, so let us treat it as such. If you don't like the mod - do not install it. If you don't like the idea behind it... do not install the mod and forget about it. No grudge. May The Nine grant you victory over Alduin. May The One give you wisdom to distinguish a game from reality.
this is very weird and interesting i wonder if it will effect amorous adventures adrianne. i would like to see the big guy walkin around more often so i hope it works out
With Idolaf and by extension the Legion wanting/paying for more weapons, it does make sense for Adrianne to get some kind of help. It'd be amusing to think of the good-natured bantering that could happen with Adrianne teasing Ulfberth about his abysmal skills(as others have mentioned). Not sold on the 'kid' bit myself. On a different note, I'm surprised none of the more 'passionate' commenters mentioned the Orcs. Poor Orsimer never get enough admiration for their smithwork. -edited for proper English structure.
Wow. You know, I've become more accustomed to mods that reduce women to sex objects than I ever feared, but I think this is the first one I've seen that does it in a way that makes me properly angry. Really? You think working a forge is all about how hard you can swing a hammer? And you think a woman can't swing a hammer hard enough? I don't know where you've been living, man, but it ain't the real world.
I promise you, metalworking is infinitely more about skill, patience, and precision than it is about strength, and women are perfectly capable of doing it. Maybe more so than men, even; women tend to be better at endurance sports, and smaller hand size correlates with better manual dexterity, so they're well-suited for hammering for long periods and for the precision work that smithing requires.
Probably not worth commenting on this mod, but you're spot on. I always roll my eyes when anyone says "women can't do [X]" because all that shows is how insular and ignorant the person saying it is.
Sure, there's often a difference in the percentage of men and women doing [X], but that percentage never reaches 100% either way, unless someone's specifically made rules to keep men or women (usually women, naturally), excluded.
I could bring up modern women smiths, but historically, women smiths are reasonably-well attested-to, and known for smithing nails, pins, chains, chainmail, and other fine objects, just as Kazeii1 says, though there's some evidence of heavy blacksmithing too. There were rules in many late medieval smithing guilds that restricted female apprentices to only apprenticing under family members, attesting to their existance. Hell, there's the English town of Ladysmith, whose name hardly appeared out of thin air.
Interestingly, in India - a country with extremely old and very fine smithing traditions - the tradition is for the woman to work the hammer while the men work the bellows!
Last but not least, one of the founders of the Girl Scouts, was a blacksmith, and the gates she made for her estate still stand. You can see them here: https://www.iforgeiron.com/uploads/monthly_2015_06/iron-gate-she-did-herself.thumb.jpg.69bbd968314f7b973e798fdcdc6f21e2.jpg
Hello, It must be my description fo the mod that was not coherent enough for some to grasp. It is not about a woman CAN/CANNOT dor something. It is about people SHOULD/SHOULDN'T do something. If I came to a Medieval town and saw a woman swinging a hammer, the first thing to cross my mind would be: "Has something terrible happened? Where is her man to do all the hard work for her? Is he sick or crippled, or (may The Nine forbid) gone to Sovingard?" I know what you may say: there are lots of examples of women doing "men's work" and doing it well. However, most of your examples would date to times of trouble, such as war or other disaster, when all men are gone leaving their women alone at home. Some posters here accused me of being a misogynist (have I spelled it correctly?). Let me make it clear: I love women. I do not like female blacksmiths. What I have observed in our world recently makes me think something is going wrong. If there are so many women willing to take up "men's jobs", it means they cannot rely on the men near them anymore. Women are very wise and sensitive creatures, and it feels like the are preparing for something really bad, when there will be no worthy men left by their side. It is something very alarming and disquieting. Seeing examples of the same in a game set in a Medieval universe, which is actually a reflection of global tendencies of the present day, makes it even more creepy. I hope I am wrong, but all the hussle in the comment section of my mod proves my fears to have a ground. Hope I have made my reasoning behind this mod more clear. If not, blame my English which is not my native language. May peace be with all of us. Enjoy the game.
Thank you for calling me "oldfashioned" rather than "dynosaur" or "mysoginist" (did I spell those two correctly?). Yes, I am oldfashioned. So as most people I mostly deal with in real life. Being oldfashioned does not always equal to being bad, or mean, or... there are so many adjectives in the English language, I cannot remember them all. Same as being "modern", or "advanced", or "fashionable" does not always mean to be good or ... (insert other fancy word it is fashionable to use nowadays). I do not think I should reply to comments anymore, cuz whenever I try to make myself more coherent it makes the things worse and the argument more heated. Anyway, be saying "creatures" I meant God's creations but not what (my guess) you thought. Thanks again for stopping by and checking my mod, I appreciate. May The Nine bless your kind heart. P.S. Recently, I added a mod to my playthrough that adds versions with trousers to some of common and fine outfits. The conservative population of Whiterun nearly rebelled and attempted to ban the ladies wearing trousers out of the city. I had to order several more barrels of Blackbriar mead to be delivered to Drunken Huntsman to pacify the people. I also asked Heimskr to write a new speach saying that Talos does not mind ladies wearing trousers. The people believed. I fear the day they are going to recover from their intoxication with Blackbriar mead.
" do not think I should reply to comments anymore, cuz whenever I try to make myself more coherent it makes the things worse and the argument more heated."
Ahh, you starting to get it. You cannot reason with grievance mongers. They'll disingenuously misconstrue everything you say to fit their hysterical victimhood narrative.
OMG! TRIGGERED! Come now let's engage in a thousand-word long debate about how I think you should or should not make your mods and what I think you should or should not be allowed to say instead of me just walking away.
Great mod,................ I like this one better than just Adrianne & Ulfberth, but the other was good too! I liked the idea of adding their son to the game but,I didn't any issue with Ulfberth at the forge as Adrianne was selling inside. After all Ulfberth proclaims that Adrianne is the true Forge Maiden.
Following the spirit of the original mod, the author could let Adrianne run the family business with the help of her son, and make Ulfberth a follower, his voice actor is the same of some companions, housecarls, and followers, giving him a decent array of follower dialogue. The wife run the Family business, while her husband is out killing the bad guys, and making Whiterun a safer place for his family.
Thanks for mod. If Im using Adrianne as merchant version, does she still have ai putting her outside for WR intro and her little stroll around outside? I have a hot chick out there helping already and i think it would be a nice change to see ol Ulfberth meandering around something a little strange, so thanks for mod. Sorry people think that somehow this mod is a reflection of a presumed assumption, on your part, that adrianne being a female makes her ill-equip to run the forge at Warmaidens. It's a fictitious game with Draugr and Dragons. You could have a skeleton run the forge, would it be immersive? I'd say yes, if you summoned it.
I work at a historical site where we portray the 18th century daily life, and one of the things we have available for tourists to see is a functioning forge. Some of us employees and volunteers are trained to run the forge as blacksmiths. A common misconception is that only the biggest and strongest men can work a forge. Speaking from my experience as a 5ft tall woman, I run the forge just fine.
It was common in the 18th century for women to run forges along side their husbands and fathers. Think about it. If you're a man and you own a forge but you have no sons or apprentices to carry on the trade and help with work, who are you going to turn to? Your wife and daughters, of course! Sure, you're not going to see a woman working in EVERY SINGLE FORGE. But it was a perfectly acceptable way of life for people back in that time.
Part of my job as a historian is to help educate people, and hopefully this helps. While I'm sorry the author thinks the forge is no place for women like myself, he has every right to think that. And yes, it is hard and hot work! But I enjoy it SO much. Anyway, I just wanted to put in my two cents.
"It was common in the 18th century for women to run forges along side their husbands and fathers."
Probably as historically accurate as Battlefield 5, and Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
"Think about it. If you're a man and you own a forge but you have no sons or apprentices to carry on the trade and help with work, who are you going to turn to?"
Probably, if you kill every able boddied man in the village... Which begs the question: who's gonna do the job women were supposed to?
Yes, my claims are historically accurate. There are records that go back as far to the 1400s in England that list women among the ranks of skilled blacksmiths.
If a town or village suddenly found itself with all their men dead for some reason, the women would certainly have a challenge ahead of them! Depending on the population size, the time of year (to prepare for harvest), the wellness of the survivors, and the potential of another attack the women could pull together to work in shifts until enough supplies had been stocked. Then, I imagine, a decision would have to be made to either move the survivors to a neighboring town or city as refugees or continue on as they are.
By the time a child is about 9 years old, they're doing chores and work around the house and farm (haha, and yes the forge too eventually). So in this hypothetical village of only women and children, they all know the basics of cooking, hunting and fishing, starting fires (no electricity of course!); enough to survive without the help of men at least for a time. But losing half the population tends to mean that the community will fail without some sort of outside intervention anyway...
I'm not here to claim that every woman would have been an expert at these things. But in those days, life was hard and everyone was expected to do their fair share. And if that meant a father had to teach his daughter how to hunt so they could survive the winter, then that's their way of life.
If you require more info, feel free to message me. Like I mentioned in my original comment, misinformation and misconceptions about history are rampant throughout our society.
Many reading materials are available online that are free to the public! It would be my pleasure to PM links to you if you'd like/if you can't find them?
"I'm not here to claim that every woman would have been an expert at these things. But in those days, life was hard and everyone was expected to do their fair share. And if that meant a father had to teach his daughter how to hunt so they could survive the winter, then that's their way of life."
I don't know about the deleted posts, but those remaining didn't say "women can't do it" or "no women ever did it". In fact, your post is very reasonable. So, i don't see anyone disagreeing with you on the existence of women that did the job. But having some registers of women working in a field doesn't mean they were the rule, instead of remarkable exceptions.
Sorry for being skeptical, but Academy is far too ingrained with ideology to be trusted.
People seem to be confusing what women are able to do, and what women were historically allowed to do. Context matters.
We know Joan of Orleans took on a successful role far outside of gender norm for the time, and yet still a main point of her heresy conviction came down to the simple accusation that she had worn mens clothing while doing so.
The women's rights movement did not evolve in a vacuum. Historically there were many documented barriers defined by gender.
It's disingenuous to claim women in roles traditionally reserved for males was somehow "common'' just because a few managed to break those barriers or were exceptions to the rules.
"Sorry for being skeptical, but Academy is far too ingrained with ideology to be trusted". You are right. But you dont need to trust historians, you can go to writers of that era. There are a lot of contracts and stuff in the internet.
Since some others have spoken on why they have endorsed this Mod, I guess I will.
I don't agree with this Mod from a Lore standpoint, nor do I agree with some of the reasoning behind it.
But I do respect when someone is willing to post and stand by something they believe in, even when there is a lot of blow back. Assuming no one is getting harmed of course.
That, and the fact that this is a new Mod Author that is willing to share with the community, is why I have endorsed this.
Now, I may have endorsed your mod (purely out of spite towards the SJW crap in the comments), but you have seriously missed some things. Women did work the forge in real history, and the dialogue of the characters will be grating as Ulfberth explicitly cannot forge a thing.
I don't understand how you can endorse this even though you know it is inaccurate. O.O Just because it made people mad? In a way, that's saying that it's okay he thinks women shouldn't be blacksmiths and encouraging ignorance.
All the author did was alter the context in a nonexistent game world roughly based on our middle ages. He didn't even introduce gender roles to the game, as NPCs in game often make allusions to implied gender roles, Olfina's "hard to be a woman in Skyrim", Ahlam's "men!" speech, Lucan basically telling Carmella that it's not her job to think, Sigrid complaining to Alvor about Dorthe smithing etc etc.
It is "accurate" to say that in that era all women were NOT free to pursue any path or any profession regardless of capabilities. Wealth and social status had an impact on available choices. Guilds and tradeskill societies also had many restrictions. Religion imposed restrictions. The women's suffrage and rights movements grew from those barriers. Historical facts do not always line up with modern morality or societal standards.
Broadly speaking, it is "inaccurate" that my char is free to choose relationships, free to bear arms, free to bare skin, free to do and be many things, including being the absolute best blacksmith in my game. Thank goodness for inaccuracy.
Bottom line is, the Author is not imposing his interpretation on anyone, as using the mod is voluntary. I endorsed to support the author.
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72 comments
Advice:
Do not post comments containing offensive remarks towards other users.
Do not reply to comments containing offensive remarks towards you or other users.
Do not reply the same way or in the mutual way to offensive comments or remarks towards you or other users.
Use the report button/feature instead. The report buttons are there for a reason.
If you beleive that any content uploaded, or comment added to a mod or a forum thread might infringe the Nexus rules, please submit a report to the staff to have the matter evaluated by the staff concerning infringements of any of the Nexus rules.
Please, leave this job of evaluating potentiial infringements of the Nexus rules to the Nexus staff and do not try to take anything into your own hands.
So far, I would like to point to our Terms and conditions/Policies and Guidelines, Forum and Commenting Guidelines (excerpt) here
https://help.nexusmods.com/article/22-forum-and-commenting-guidelines
Be Civil!
We do not tolerate 'trolling' or harassment of any kind. …
No profanity. It is perfectly possible to express yourself using civil language. Do not attempt to circumvent the profanity filter.
Reporting Inappropriate Content
Attempting to enforce our site policies yourself through “vigilante” behaviour is prohibited. …
If you come across content that is violating our rules, we encourage you to make use of the “Report” function that can be accessed via the corresponding button.
Thank you for your attention.
I did not check the post sections for several days after publishing the mod. I did not expect it to spur such a heated discussion.
It is something unusual for me to find my modest work amidst such a tempest.
From what I understand it is not the mod iteslf but the resoning behind it that causes most of the anger.
You know, I grew up in a rather conservative society where we have a saying:
"The man and the dog work outdoors, the woman and the cat - indoors". So I brought a little piece of my vision into the game.
You are right: it is fantasy game with dragons and magic, and a woman CAN swing a hammer there.
Still, it is a GAME, so let us treat it as such.
If you don't like the mod - do not install it.
If you don't like the idea behind it... do not install the mod and forget about it. No grudge.
May The Nine grant you victory over Alduin.
May The One give you wisdom to distinguish a game from reality.
Please check the description page and download the new version.
On a different note, I'm surprised none of the more 'passionate' commenters mentioned the Orcs. Poor Orsimer never get enough admiration for their smithwork.
-edited for proper English structure.
I promise you, metalworking is infinitely more about skill, patience, and precision than it is about strength, and women are perfectly capable of doing it. Maybe more so than men, even; women tend to be better at endurance sports, and smaller hand size correlates with better manual dexterity, so they're well-suited for hammering for long periods and for the precision work that smithing requires.
Sure, there's often a difference in the percentage of men and women doing [X], but that percentage never reaches 100% either way, unless someone's specifically made rules to keep men or women (usually women, naturally), excluded.
I could bring up modern women smiths, but historically, women smiths are reasonably-well attested-to, and known for smithing nails, pins, chains, chainmail, and other fine objects, just as Kazeii1 says, though there's some evidence of heavy blacksmithing too. There were rules in many late medieval smithing guilds that restricted female apprentices to only apprenticing under family members, attesting to their existance. Hell, there's the English town of Ladysmith, whose name hardly appeared out of thin air.
Interestingly, in India - a country with extremely old and very fine smithing traditions - the tradition is for the woman to work the hammer while the men work the bellows!
Last but not least, one of the founders of the Girl Scouts, was a blacksmith, and the gates she made for her estate still stand. You can see them here: https://www.iforgeiron.com/uploads/monthly_2015_06/iron-gate-she-did-herself.thumb.jpg.69bbd968314f7b973e798fdcdc6f21e2.jpg
It must be my description fo the mod that was not coherent enough for some to grasp.
It is not about a woman CAN/CANNOT dor something. It is about people SHOULD/SHOULDN'T do something.
If I came to a Medieval town and saw a woman swinging a hammer, the first thing to cross my mind would be: "Has something terrible happened? Where is her man to do all the hard work for her? Is he sick or crippled, or (may The Nine forbid) gone to Sovingard?"
I know what you may say: there are lots of examples of women doing "men's work" and doing it well. However, most of your examples would date to times of trouble, such as war or other disaster, when all men are gone leaving their women alone at home.
Some posters here accused me of being a misogynist (have I spelled it correctly?). Let me make it clear: I love women. I do not like female blacksmiths.
What I have observed in our world recently makes me think something is going wrong. If there are so many women willing to take up "men's jobs", it means they cannot rely on the men near them anymore. Women are very wise and sensitive creatures, and it feels like the are preparing for something really bad, when there will be no worthy men left by their side. It is something very alarming and disquieting. Seeing examples of the same in a game set in a Medieval universe, which is actually a reflection of global tendencies of the present day, makes it even more creepy. I hope I am wrong, but all the hussle in the comment section of my mod proves my fears to have a ground.
Hope I have made my reasoning behind this mod more clear.
If not, blame my English which is not my native language.
May peace be with all of us. Enjoy the game.
Also, thanks for calling us 'creatures'
Yes, I am oldfashioned. So as most people I mostly deal with in real life.
Being oldfashioned does not always equal to being bad, or mean, or... there are so many adjectives in the English language, I cannot remember them all.
Same as being "modern", or "advanced", or "fashionable" does not always mean to be good or ... (insert other fancy word it is fashionable to use nowadays).
I do not think I should reply to comments anymore, cuz whenever I try to make myself more coherent it makes the things worse and the argument more heated.
Anyway, be saying "creatures" I meant God's creations but not what (my guess) you thought.
Thanks again for stopping by and checking my mod, I appreciate.
May The Nine bless your kind heart.
P.S. Recently, I added a mod to my playthrough that adds versions with trousers to some of common and fine outfits. The conservative population of Whiterun nearly rebelled and attempted to ban the ladies wearing trousers out of the city. I had to order several more barrels of Blackbriar mead to be delivered to Drunken Huntsman to pacify the people. I also asked Heimskr to write a new speach saying that Talos does not mind ladies wearing trousers. The people believed. I fear the day they are going to recover from their intoxication with Blackbriar mead.
Ahh, you starting to get it. You cannot reason with grievance mongers. They'll disingenuously misconstrue everything you say to fit their hysterical victimhood narrative.
I liked the idea of adding their son to the game but,I didn't any issue with Ulfberth at the forge as Adrianne was selling inside.
After all Ulfberth proclaims that Adrianne is the true Forge Maiden.
I have a hot chick out there helping already and i think it would be a nice change to see ol Ulfberth meandering around something a little strange, so thanks for mod. Sorry people think that somehow this mod is a reflection of a presumed assumption, on your part, that adrianne being a female makes her ill-equip to run the forge at Warmaidens. It's a fictitious game with Draugr and Dragons. You could have a skeleton run the forge, would it be immersive? I'd say yes, if you summoned it.
It was common in the 18th century for women to run forges along side their husbands and fathers. Think about it. If you're a man and you own a forge but you have no sons or apprentices to carry on the trade and help with work, who are you going to turn to? Your wife and daughters, of course! Sure, you're not going to see a woman working in EVERY SINGLE FORGE. But it was a perfectly acceptable way of life for people back in that time.
Part of my job as a historian is to help educate people, and hopefully this helps. While I'm sorry the author thinks the forge is no place for women like myself, he has every right to think that. And yes, it is hard and hot work! But I enjoy it SO much. Anyway, I just wanted to put in my two cents.
Probably as historically accurate as Battlefield 5, and Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
"Think about it. If you're a man and you own a forge but you have no sons or apprentices to carry on the trade and help with work, who are you going to turn to?"
Probably, if you kill every able boddied man in the village... Which begs the question: who's gonna do the job women were supposed to?
Yes, my claims are historically accurate. There are records that go back as far to the 1400s in England that list women among the ranks of skilled blacksmiths.
If a town or village suddenly found itself with all their men dead for some reason, the women would certainly have a challenge ahead of them! Depending on the population size, the time of year (to prepare for harvest), the wellness of the survivors, and the potential of another attack the women could pull together to work in shifts until enough supplies had been stocked. Then, I imagine, a decision would have to be made to either move the survivors to a neighboring town or city as refugees or continue on as they are.
By the time a child is about 9 years old, they're doing chores and work around the house and farm (haha, and yes the forge too eventually). So in this hypothetical village of only women and children, they all know the basics of cooking, hunting and fishing, starting fires (no electricity of course!); enough to survive without the help of men at least for a time. But losing half the population tends to mean that the community will fail without some sort of outside intervention anyway...
I'm not here to claim that every woman would have been an expert at these things. But in those days, life was hard and everyone was expected to do their fair share. And if that meant a father had to teach his daughter how to hunt so they could survive the winter, then that's their way of life.
If you require more info, feel free to message me. Like I mentioned in my original comment, misinformation and misconceptions about history are rampant throughout our society.
Many reading materials are available online that are free to the public! It would be my pleasure to PM links to you if you'd like/if you can't find them?
I don't know about the deleted posts, but those remaining didn't say "women can't do it" or "no women ever did it". In fact, your post is very reasonable. So, i don't see anyone disagreeing with you on the existence of women that did the job. But having some registers of women working in a field doesn't mean they were the rule, instead of remarkable exceptions.
Sorry for being skeptical, but Academy is far too ingrained with ideology to be trusted.
We know Joan of Orleans took on a successful role far outside of gender norm for the time, and yet still a main point of her heresy conviction came down to the simple accusation that she had worn mens clothing while doing so.
The women's rights movement did not evolve in a vacuum. Historically there were many documented barriers defined by gender.
It's disingenuous to claim women in roles traditionally reserved for males was somehow "common'' just because a few managed to break those barriers or were exceptions to the rules.
I don't agree with this Mod from a Lore standpoint, nor do I agree with some of the reasoning behind it.
But I do respect when someone is willing to post and stand by something they believe in, even when there is a lot of blow back. Assuming no one is getting harmed of course.
That, and the fact that this is a new Mod Author that is willing to share with the community, is why I have endorsed this.
It is "accurate" to say that in that era all women were NOT free to pursue any path or any profession regardless of capabilities. Wealth and social status had an impact on available choices. Guilds and tradeskill societies also had many restrictions. Religion imposed restrictions. The women's suffrage and rights movements grew from those barriers. Historical facts do not always line up with modern morality or societal standards.
Broadly speaking, it is "inaccurate" that my char is free to choose relationships, free to bear arms, free to bare skin, free to do and be many things, including being the absolute best blacksmith in my game. Thank goodness for inaccuracy.
Bottom line is, the Author is not imposing his interpretation on anyone, as using the mod is voluntary. I endorsed to support the author.