I like the idea of this mod, and I've been a fan of SPERG for a while (I might someday try SkyRe or one of the other alternatives, but I'm in no hurry). However, early in a new game with this mod installed, when I tried to pick the lock on the chest near the beginning of Bleak Falls Temple, it didn't even start the lockpicking animation. I'm guessing that means I have a 0% chance of picking the lock? The description isn't explicit about what is supposed to happen in that situation. I'm currently using the "No Psychic Lock Knowledge" mod as well, so I don't know what the difficulty level of that chest is, and I can think of a couple of options for this mod that would allow better immersion, especially when using that mod as well: 1. toggle whether to display exact chance of success after a pick attempt. 2. toggle whether to allow wasting picks on a lock with 0% chance of success. (since with "No Psychic Lock Knowledge" I shouldn't know ahead of time that I have a 0% chance of success, though given that I only had an 18% chance on the cage in the torturer's room that Hadvar/Ralof suggests I unlock while escaping Helgen, which iirc is the easiest lock level possible, perhaps I should find a trainer before I even bother attempting most locks with this mod)
Edit: looking closer at the description, this part:
There are no hard skill level requirements (e.g. “you must have 75 Lockpicking to attempt an Expert lock” ); the only thing keeping you from picking a lock is having a 0% chance of success (and lockpicks, of course).
seems to be in conflict with this part:
Your base chance to successfully pick a lock is equal to 1.2 times your Lockpicking skill, minus the difficulty of the lock (0/25/50/75/100 for Novice/Apprentice/Adept/Expert/Master)
It might not have been your intent, but that formula ends up introducing hard skill level requirements (although somewhat adjustable with perks, these numbers ignore that): 21 for Apprentice, 42 for Adept, 63 for Expert, and 84 for Master.
A clean Skyrim installation with all DLCs (including HD textures), SPERG, SLOP and No Psychic Lock Knowledge works for me (for the most part; see next paragraph).
I've sunk a few hours today into testing and tweaking the mod, but it seems no matter what kind of failsafes I try to implement, there's something like a 2–5% every activation that the whole thing just breaks, and you can't interact with the locked object (even if you unlock/relock/whatever via console). I'm not an expert with the Creation Kit, but as far as I can tell SLOP is in its simplest-possible form, and I have no clue as to what I can do at this point to try to fix it. I'm torn at the moment as to whether to keep it on the Nexus.
Regarding the "hard requirements," I understand your confusion. The context here is that I dislike when games have two separate systems for determining your lockpicking effectiveness: how likely you'll succeed when picking, and whether or not you're even /allowed/ to pick. For example, if you have 99 Lockpicking and the Thief perk, that's a 38.8% chance to succeed at picking a Master lock, but some systems (such as Morrowind and Fallout 3/New Vegas) would bar you from even attempting the lock just because you're not at 100 Lockpicking yet.
I've now edited the mod description to instead say "The only thing preventing you from attempting a lock is having a 0% chance of success (and lockpicks, of course)." This should hopefully also answer the "can I waste picks on an impossible lock?"
- On occasion the lockpicking animation will not end, locking me in place. I have to load an earlier save to fix. Script lag maybe? - If I use the console to unlock a chest and try to loot it, I am unable to interact with the chest. - Not sure if this is a mod conflict, but after installing, NPCs seem to be having issues opening doors with locks on them. They do not enter unless I open the door.
Not sure how much of this can be due to mod conflicts or script lag.
1. I’m not sure what could cause this particular issue. It’s literally just a Wait(4). I don’t know what could keep it from continuing after that point. When you say the animation won't end, do you also mean the sound continues looping forever? 2. I should be able to resolve this. My best guess is that unlocking via console doesn’t actually trigger the OnLockStateChanged() event, for some reason. My best solution, if that’s the case, is just doing another “am I actually unlocked?” check whenever activated. In the meantime, you may wish to try exiting and re-entering the cell, or moving near a different lock temporarily to reset the script. 3. I can resolve this. I didn’t realize that NPCs followed the same activation override. NPCs normally need the relevant key in order to open it though, correct?
I believe I have resolved the second and third issues you’ve listed. The first one seems to be a widespread problem with the EnablePlayerControls function itself, and I don’t think I’m capable of fixing it.
I have tons of mods installed so maybe is something else (I'm actually doing a test run to check problems and incompatibilities), but I encounter problem 2 (and 3 also I think) with the latest 2.0 version, so sadly I think your fix didn't work (at least with doors).
I also found that this mod is incompatible with the "Simple Knock" mod, if the door is unlocked by that mod, it becomes stuck and cant be interacted with. I had to use the "unblocking legacy mode" provided by "Animations" mod to unstuck both doors.
I really like the concept, but very sadly I will have to uninstall it.
Left to my own devices, I think I might design it as such: "your lockpicking chance is equal to 50% of your skill, plus 20% for each basic progression perk (Novice Locks, Apprentice Locks, etc.), minus the difficulty of the lock (0/25/50/75/100)." I'd leave Thief in its vanilla state, change Unbreakable over to Tough Picks as in SPERG, and change Locksmith to its SPERG version except without the increased pick chance.
The only reason I changed Thief to provide a bonus in SPERG is because I wanted there to be /some/ kind of non-automatic way to invest into lockpicking directly. With Vanilla, five perk points are plenty to invest into raw lockpicking proficiency.
Case-by-case comparison (numbers separated by slashes represent dependency on perk choices): 15 Lockpicking: 18 in SPERG, 7/27 in prospective system 50 Lockpicking: 60/80 in SPERG, 25/45/65/85 in prospective system 100 Lockpicking: 130/150 in SPERG, 50/70/90/110/130/150 in prospective system.
I suppose that's not so bad after all. However, I make no promises that I will get to work on this. That said, you and others are more than welcome to take my work if you would like to make it yourself.
Be nice to see this kind of mod work with other perk overhaul mods, like Perma, Ordinator, Requiem, Skyre (there's some others, but those are the big ones).
It is not designed to work with PerMa. It may not work at all, but if it does work then only the base skill scaling would apply, and no perks would modify lockpicking.
You know, I’m not sure yet (I have only been doing fresh starts while testing). I expect it should work just fine. If you would make a backup, and then let me know whether it works, that would be wonderful (should be pretty apparent the moment you try picking something).
The MCM menu is typically fine as is. The options there are for your own immersion and enjoyment.
This does work on an existing save. I do think that the chances for opening locks depending on the lock rating is a bit low. Not sure if it is something you can add an mcm menu option. Also not sure if you can add an option to continue to use lockpicks until the lock is opened.
The chances are low, but the resulting experience is higher; gaining levels is quick, as long as you can find easy-enough locks to pick. The success rate formula is closely based on Morrowind’s. The generally-low pick chance is also intended to make lockpick collecting matter more. With this mod, you might even want to purchase lockpicks you find, whereas in vanilla Skyrim I had a never-ending surplus.
Honestly, I thought about having configurable difficulty, but being able to change skill scaling and base chances means that perks should similarly be adjustable, and I don’t know if/how I can make the perk descriptions automatically change based on the configured settings. Currently, the various bonuses and scaling add up really neatly, though the first few dozen levels can be a bit rough (until 40, when you can get Thief). It seems appropriate, all things considered, because someone untrained in lockpicking isn’t going to have a very easy time of it, especially with remotely advanced locks. Once you approach Adept level, though, your skill is solid and you can handle most stuff thrown your way, especially if you've specialized in it (i.e. taken Thief).
As for auto-picking, I’m hesitant to do that because I don’t know an effective way to keep it from eating all of your picks without you wanting it to. If your chance of picking is reasonably high, you won’t have to manually pick it many times, and if your chance of picking is very low, it’s entirely possible you’ll run out of picks unless there’s a way to cancel the interaction. I’m just not sure how to handle that gracefully.
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1. toggle whether to display exact chance of success after a pick attempt.
2. toggle whether to allow wasting picks on a lock with 0% chance of success. (since with "No Psychic Lock Knowledge" I shouldn't know ahead of time that I have a 0% chance of success, though given that I only had an 18% chance on the cage in the torturer's room that Hadvar/Ralof suggests I unlock while escaping Helgen, which iirc is the easiest lock level possible, perhaps I should find a trainer before I even bother attempting most locks with this mod)
Edit: looking closer at the description, this part:
seems to be in conflict with this part:
It might not have been your intent, but that formula ends up introducing hard skill level requirements (although somewhat adjustable with perks, these numbers ignore that): 21 for Apprentice, 42 for Adept, 63 for Expert, and 84 for Master.
I've sunk a few hours today into testing and tweaking the mod, but it seems no matter what kind of failsafes I try to implement, there's something like a 2–5% every activation that the whole thing just breaks, and you can't interact with the locked object (even if you unlock/relock/whatever via console). I'm not an expert with the Creation Kit, but as far as I can tell SLOP is in its simplest-possible form, and I have no clue as to what I can do at this point to try to fix it. I'm torn at the moment as to whether to keep it on the Nexus.
Regarding the "hard requirements," I understand your confusion. The context here is that I dislike when games have two separate systems for determining your lockpicking effectiveness: how likely you'll succeed when picking, and whether or not you're even /allowed/ to pick. For example, if you have 99 Lockpicking and the Thief perk, that's a 38.8% chance to succeed at picking a Master lock, but some systems (such as Morrowind and Fallout 3/New Vegas) would bar you from even attempting the lock just because you're not at 100 Lockpicking yet.
I've now edited the mod description to instead say "The only thing preventing you from attempting a lock is having a 0% chance of success (and lockpicks, of course)." This should hopefully also answer the "can I waste picks on an impossible lock?"
Thank you for the thoughtful post.
- On occasion the lockpicking animation will not end, locking me in place. I have to load an earlier save to fix. Script lag maybe?
- If I use the console to unlock a chest and try to loot it, I am unable to interact with the chest.
- Not sure if this is a mod conflict, but after installing, NPCs seem to be having issues opening doors with locks on them. They do not enter unless I open the door.
Not sure how much of this can be due to mod conflicts or script lag.
2. I should be able to resolve this. My best guess is that unlocking via console doesn’t actually trigger the OnLockStateChanged() event, for some reason. My best solution, if that’s the case, is just doing another “am I actually unlocked?” check whenever activated. In the meantime, you may wish to try exiting and re-entering the cell, or moving near a different lock temporarily to reset the script.
3. I can resolve this. I didn’t realize that NPCs followed the same activation override. NPCs normally need the relevant key in order to open it though, correct?
I also found that this mod is incompatible with the "Simple Knock" mod, if the door is unlocked by that mod, it becomes stuck and cant be interacted with. I had to use the "unblocking legacy mode" provided by "Animations" mod to unstuck both doors.
I really like the concept, but very sadly I will have to uninstall it.
The other mini-game avoiders available are all lacking the simplicity and/or the elegance of this implementation.
Endorsed!
The only reason I changed Thief to provide a bonus in SPERG is because I wanted there to be /some/ kind of non-automatic way to invest into lockpicking directly. With Vanilla, five perk points are plenty to invest into raw lockpicking proficiency.
Case-by-case comparison (numbers separated by slashes represent dependency on perk choices):
15 Lockpicking: 18 in SPERG, 7/27 in prospective system
50 Lockpicking: 60/80 in SPERG, 25/45/65/85 in prospective system
100 Lockpicking: 130/150 in SPERG, 50/70/90/110/130/150 in prospective system.
I suppose that's not so bad after all. However, I make no promises that I will get to work on this. That said, you and others are more than welcome to take my work if you would like to make it yourself.
But if you or anyone else wants to use my work as a template and implement it for any of those then I give full permission!
The MCM menu is typically fine as is. The options there are for your own immersion and enjoyment.
Honestly, I thought about having configurable difficulty, but being able to change skill scaling and base chances means that perks should similarly be adjustable, and I don’t know if/how I can make the perk descriptions automatically change based on the configured settings. Currently, the various bonuses and scaling add up really neatly, though the first few dozen levels can be a bit rough (until 40, when you can get Thief). It seems appropriate, all things considered, because someone untrained in lockpicking isn’t going to have a very easy time of it, especially with remotely advanced locks. Once you approach Adept level, though, your skill is solid and you can handle most stuff thrown your way, especially if you've specialized in it (i.e. taken Thief).
As for auto-picking, I’m hesitant to do that because I don’t know an effective way to keep it from eating all of your picks without you wanting it to. If your chance of picking is reasonably high, you won’t have to manually pick it many times, and if your chance of picking is very low, it’s entirely possible you’ll run out of picks unless there’s a way to cancel the interaction. I’m just not sure how to handle that gracefully.