It's safe to overwrite your current version with this.
Changes in this version:
Forwarded some changes from USKP Rebalancing, after extensive play testing: Nerfed Rayya & Iona because dual-wielding NPCs are OP Slight buffs for Argis to make him actually bulwarky
I consider this version to be final unless serious bugs are found.
Hello all this looks very good (haven't tested yet). I was just wondering whether your esp and the original TevinterMage's Housecarls could be merged ? If yes, would you have any advise on how to do it ? The purpose would obviously be not to reach the esp limit. Thank you.
I use this with AFT and Beans Badass Women compilation. It plays nice with AFT, which is great, but doesn't work with Lydia and Jordis from Beans mod. Sorting by LOOT puts his compilation mod below yours, and thus your mod gets overwritten by Beans' (no perks)....placing your mod below Beans puts your perk changes back on Lydia, but Beans' Lydia face gets overridden to vanilla with a grey face chaser. I'm pretty sure Beans is not updating his overhauls anymore, so was just curious if you could look into this. Does your mod reference ANY of the housecarls appearance in a way that would supersede a facemod (i.e. Beans' in this case)? I don't know enough about modding to know where the problem is, maybe you could point me in the right direction if nothing else. Thanks.
Edit: Checked against another follower face change mod (Follower Facelifts by SvarogNL) and I get the same result (i.e., no perks or grey tinted vanilla face and perks, depending on which mod loads first).
Final Edit: You might want to put in the description that your mod is likely incompatible with any follower facelift/facemorph mods or appearance changers. Saying that the 'vanilla bodies' version is compatible with any 'replacers' one may have is not quite accurate since I think edited facemorphs are 'replacers' but will likely cause conflicts. I love the mod btw, just too in love with my favorite face changers to let them go.
The description reads: "Compatible with body and texture replacers", which is accurate. Body replacer means stuff like UNP and CBBE and texture replacers replace, well, textures which DBH doesn't. It does however duplicate the vanilla facemorph for each of the housecarls. This can't be avoided because an NPC's facemorph and their other stats and perks are part of the same record.
There is no way for me to make this compatible with mods that make specific edits to any of the NPC records DBH covers, short of creating compatibility patches for each of these mods (which I won't do, sorry). You could make a patch yourself however using TES5Edit, it's not that hard. To get started with TES5Edit check out FadingSignal's tutorials here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQi7vnqXySc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyDpP96LRmA
I got tripped up with this description "Uses vanilla bodies/hair/faces or any replacers you have"...thinking that 'replacers' was inclusive of all three types (body/hair/face). Thanks for your reply, and I will iikely try making that patch.
Bijin and this mod edit the same NPC records, so yes there is a conflict.
If you like, you can combine the housecarl looks from TM Housecarls with my balance tweaks and Bijins looks for the other warmaidens with this load order:
- Bijin Warmaidens - TM Housecarls - DB Housecarls HF TMH version
I'm using this with TM Housecarls and everything is working great - much more balanced. I was shocked at the difference in stats! This is a big improvement and not so overpowered.
I like what you did, the balancing and kind of differentiation. Exactly what i'm searching for as for Housecarls (especially Rayya, never liked her to be a usual 1hcombatwarrior with heavy armour), and why i for example don't dl/use such mods like TMHousecarls (which would be a good mod imo., if it were a pure "cosmetic" mod aka changes textures and armour/weapon as standalone).
Bit contrary to the already made comment by CitizenX, i'm for a housecarl-modification, which provides some (in the sense of sensible) differentiation, but strongly lorefriendly and for the most part important, no overpowered followers, no exageration and/or too big impact on the (vanilla) balancing. Nexus is full of stuff, which offers OP followers, and with custom followers with diverse different skills/perks etc.. And as for (vanilla re-)balancing/adjustments, we have all the combat etc. mods. Followers with perks are usually overpowered, possibly not everybody knows, that followers get (big) auto-bonusses, and just if played with follower management mod, are essential (or at least protected). If possible for you, better lower their abilities/skills/stats still a bit (ie. in no way start level over 10, imo., just leveling along the pc).
I also support your mentioned approach to take back the ebony armour of Gregor, perhaps Ancient North armour would be "neath"? (to make him different).
At last a question: I guess, your pure Hearthfire version applies the mesh/texture of the used setup of the game (vanilla) or by mod (ie. UNP etc.)? Looking at your file-size, you don't come with any nif/dds, i assume, just like custom-follower mods which apply the body/texture of the user, so you only have modified the housecarl-npc's traits/stats and applied armour/weapon, right? (I apply the CK for my own customisations, but i'm not eager to mess around with the files, if everything is alright by a given mod).
Correct, this mod does not alter textures or meshes, so it will work with whatever graphics mods you have installed. The only difference in the TMH version is that it references the assets that come with that (facegen and UNP stuff).
I agree with your points on balance. My design goals are to make them slightly stronger than vanilla in their chosen specializations, and significantly weaker in other areas, just like your character would be. Some of them will always be more allround than others though: Lydia especially, since this is the first follower most people get.
Getting this right involves a lot of calculation and playtesting. In fact I think they're a little overpowered still in the current version, expect an update soon.
That's alright with Lydia, she should be a strong all-around 1h-combat-warrior, at least level 10, it would be embarassing for her, if she comes weaker than (semi lorefriendly) custom followers (i just try to apply only such custom followers, which are max level 10 at start, and not much extra skills/perks). Lydia should have some extra skills/perks compared to vanilla, so she is able to clear some hard situations, when outnumbered and bosses (PermaZones, Obis, etc.), her weak point should be still imo. vs. any kind of mages - for this, one (must) have custom followers as answer (or the player character himself).
Edit: Btw., in my game-setup, which is a mere hardcore-difficulty environment, i need quite some time to level up and to make/finish quests. Before i become Thane of Whiterun and have access to Lydia, it requires a lot of time, and i have already quite some custom followers at my hand, which are on the level of housecarls ... or even better ... one can interprete housecarls but also as the protectors of the home/s (of a noble or rich), that was their historical purpose: house-guards. With this background in mind, it is questionable to provide rogue/stealth housecarls like Iona is in this mod, imo., also here applies, that there are dozens of custom followers with rogue/stealth/mage abilities on the Nexus. I personally would prefer Iona as fast and light warrior with focus on range combat aka archer focused skill. Valdimar is just a similar case, while i personally never played that far as of yet, that i approached him overall. But well, it's no problem for me to have them as not typical housecarls in the game.
Last question, for my verification: Your hearthfire plugin modifies the default armour and weapon of the housecarls, right? I'm for example most interested to get Rayya with light armour etc.. Perhaps you can add still to your 1st page description, which housecarl gets which default armour/weapon change, that would be helpful. The default armour is somewhat important for me, because i apply SMF as follower management which puts back the default armour of followers, when they are released/dismissed (by player added armour is in their inventory, and first re-applied, when they are re-recruited).
Rayya wears scaled armor. You can see all default outfits in the screenshots.
Iona will keep her stealth skills, but is also more than capable with a blade and (v1.1 update) a bow.
Not to be pedantic, but the term housecarl was originally used for free manservant. The narrower meaning of bodyguard came later. Also, I would expect the jarl of Riften to employ some people who know their way around the Ratway. I think of Iona as something like this: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Thief-catcher
Tracking for now because I really like the idea of diversification without overpowering, but think the differences could be even stronger. Why not some more specialization in different aggression levels, weapon types and fitting magic use for some characters?
For example (Sorry for my rusty English):
Two tanks with sword and shield and two tanks with two-handed skills would make more sense with different mentalities. What if one rushes hot headed (and maybe even lightly armored) into battle, neclecting defense and spending all stamina within seconds for strong attacks while the other one stays more defensive, dealing lower damage but stays on his/her feet longer versus strong opponents?
For now, Rayya is just a less sneaky Iona. But she already has the racial bonus for Alteration, so why not make her a pure dual-sword-wielder wearing no armor but Redguard clothes, combined with wards and armor spells (according to her level)?
Iona as thief-like maybe shouldn't be able to take or deal much damage except from ordered sneak attacks or maybe with bows. But she could be good with locks and help a strictly warrior-type Dragonborn opening some annoying locks.
On the long run, even different carry weight or (atypical) strengths and weaknesses against various effects could make the choice of the fitting follower for different quests a more strategic one.
Hey, thanks for your input. I'll certainly consider it for the next release. I agree there's room for diversifying the styles of the heavy armor users a little more. Tweaking the aggression values is certainly an option, but I'll have to do some serious testing to make sure they don't commit suicide or stand by watching you get killed. I'll probably drop Gregor's ebony armor for the vanilla version, it just doesn't feel right for a small town hired hand.
Rayya and Iona are actually more different than you think: Rayya has a berserker combat style, which means she should spend more time slashing and less blocking. She's also less picky about which weapons she uses. Maybe I need to make that clearer in the description. Iona's lockpicking skills will get a boost in the next version for sure.
24 comments
It's safe to overwrite your current version with this.
Changes in this version:
Forwarded some changes from USKP
Rebalancing, after extensive play testing:
Nerfed Rayya & Iona because dual-wielding NPCs are OP
Slight buffs for Argis to make him actually bulwarky
I consider this version to be final unless serious bugs are found.
all this looks very good (haven't tested yet).
I was just wondering whether your esp and the original TevinterMage's Housecarls could be merged ?
If yes, would you have any advise on how to do it ?
The purpose would obviously be not to reach the esp limit.
Thank you.
Edit: Checked against another follower face change mod (Follower Facelifts by SvarogNL) and I get the same result (i.e., no perks or grey tinted vanilla face and perks, depending on which mod loads first).
Final Edit: You might want to put in the description that your mod is likely incompatible with any follower facelift/facemorph mods or appearance changers. Saying that the 'vanilla bodies' version is compatible with any 'replacers' one may have is not quite accurate since I think edited facemorphs are 'replacers' but will likely cause conflicts. I love the mod btw, just too in love with my favorite face changers to let them go.
There is no way for me to make this compatible with mods that make specific edits to any of the NPC records DBH covers, short of creating compatibility patches for each of these mods (which I won't do, sorry). You could make a patch yourself however using TES5Edit, it's not that hard. To get started with TES5Edit check out FadingSignal's tutorials here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQi7vnqXySc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyDpP96LRmA
If you like, you can combine the housecarl looks from TM Housecarls with my balance tweaks and Bijins looks for the other warmaidens with this load order:
- Bijin Warmaidens
- TM Housecarls
- DB Housecarls HF TMH version
Edit: Endorsed and kudos given for the proper balancing. This kind of modding is way underrated.
Bit contrary to the already made comment by CitizenX, i'm for a housecarl-modification, which provides some (in the sense of sensible) differentiation, but strongly lorefriendly and for the most part important, no overpowered followers, no exageration and/or too big impact on the (vanilla) balancing.
Nexus is full of stuff, which offers OP followers, and with custom followers with diverse different skills/perks etc..
And as for (vanilla re-)balancing/adjustments, we have all the combat etc. mods. Followers with perks are usually overpowered, possibly not everybody knows, that followers get (big) auto-bonusses, and just if played with follower management mod, are essential (or at least protected). If possible for you, better lower their abilities/skills/stats still a bit (ie. in no way start level over 10, imo., just leveling along the pc).
I also support your mentioned approach to take back the ebony armour of Gregor, perhaps Ancient North armour would be "neath"? (to make him different).
At last a question: I guess, your pure Hearthfire version applies the mesh/texture of the used setup of the game (vanilla) or by mod (ie. UNP etc.)? Looking at your file-size, you don't come with any nif/dds, i assume, just like custom-follower mods which apply the body/texture of the user, so you only have modified the housecarl-npc's traits/stats and applied armour/weapon, right? (I apply the CK for my own customisations, but i'm not eager to mess around with the files, if everything is alright by a given mod).
Bookmarked, will wait on your replies and update.
I agree with your points on balance. My design goals are to make them slightly stronger than vanilla in their chosen specializations, and significantly weaker in other areas, just like your character would be. Some of them will always be more allround than others though: Lydia especially, since this is the first follower most people get.
Getting this right involves a lot of calculation and playtesting. In fact I think they're a little overpowered still in the current version, expect an update soon.
Edit: Btw., in my game-setup, which is a mere hardcore-difficulty environment, i need quite some time to level up and to make/finish quests. Before i become Thane of Whiterun and have access to Lydia, it requires a lot of time, and i have already quite some custom followers at my hand, which are on the level of housecarls ... or even better
Last question, for my verification:
Your hearthfire plugin modifies the default armour and weapon of the housecarls, right? I'm for example most interested to get Rayya with light armour etc..
Perhaps you can add still to your 1st page description, which housecarl gets which default armour/weapon change, that would be helpful.
The default armour is somewhat important for me, because i apply SMF as follower management which puts back the default armour of followers, when they are released/dismissed (by player added armour is in their inventory, and first re-applied, when they are re-recruited).
Iona will keep her stealth skills, but is also more than capable with a blade and (v1.1 update) a bow.
Not to be pedantic, but the term housecarl was originally used for free manservant. The narrower meaning of bodyguard came later. Also, I would expect the jarl of Riften to employ some people who know their way around the Ratway. I think of Iona as something like this: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Thief-catcher
For example (Sorry for my rusty English):
Two tanks with sword and shield and two tanks with two-handed skills would make more sense with different mentalities. What if one rushes hot headed (and maybe even lightly armored) into battle, neclecting defense and spending all stamina within seconds for strong attacks while the other one stays more defensive, dealing lower damage but stays on his/her feet longer versus strong opponents?
For now, Rayya is just a less sneaky Iona. But she already has the racial bonus for Alteration, so why not make her a pure dual-sword-wielder wearing no armor but Redguard clothes, combined with wards and armor spells (according to her level)?
Iona as thief-like maybe shouldn't be able to take or deal much damage except from ordered sneak attacks or maybe with bows. But she could be good with locks and help a strictly warrior-type Dragonborn opening some annoying locks.
On the long run, even different carry weight or (atypical) strengths and weaknesses against various effects could make the choice of the fitting follower for different quests a more strategic one.
Rayya and Iona are actually more different than you think: Rayya has a berserker combat style, which means she should spend more time slashing and less blocking. She's also less picky about which weapons she uses. Maybe I need to make that clearer in the description. Iona's lockpicking skills will get a boost in the next version for sure.