I have my lore dump copy and paste message for this :)
Summoning Undead is Necromancy in-lore. And summoning undead from Oblivion is still necromancy as well. Furthermore, in Skyrim, Summoning undead was stated to fall under the Mages Guild ban.
Phinis: If you require assistance with summoning techniques, please let me know. If you would, please also contain your summons to the College grounds. The locals do not need to be agitated further by Atronachs roaming their town. The summoning of undead is even less advisable outside of the College. Player: Summoning undead isn't frowned upon?" Phinis : By Sheor, no. Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild, and were never enforced here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used. Of course, non-mages may not see it that way, so we don't go around flaunting it." Source
If that isn't enough evidence for you, I complied more sources below: There is no definitive source on what the summons actually are soul-wise. Most people make the claim that we are either summoning Daedra or Souls from the Soul Carin that inhabit zombies and skeletons, but in-lore that is still counted as Necromancy.
Now, it is true, of course, that conjuration is a common tool of sorcery, and we sorcerers often resort to summoning aid from Oblivion when a problem is best solved by judicious application of vicious brute force. It is also true that summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses, or calling up the souls of the dead for information or other services—in short, necromancy—is a subset of the art of conjuration, albeit inherently distasteful and degrading.
Even souls summoned from the Soul Carin were once living and still possess autonomy. See the convo with a Wraith from the Soul Carin below.
Cheated! Betrayed! Deceived! You promised! But you lied! Forever! You have taken my life, and given me NOTHING! Eternal happiness? Life everlasting? No! Eternal nightmare! Death everlasting! Nothing now. Nothing forever more. Where is this land of joy and plenty you promised? No days, no nights. Tired without rest. Weary without hope. Time without end. And this is the paradise you promised?
When we summon an undead from the Soul Carin we are controlling a dead person's soul. That is the definition of necromancy.
Necromancy, as you likely know, is the manipulation of souls, soul energies, or corpses of the dead.
Source: Unhallowed Legions
Lastly, summons like Skeletons aren't just Daedra that look like skeletons, they are fully undead. In-game, they both are treated as undead (Turn Undead works on them) and are referred to as undead by NPCs in-game through texts:
They (necromancers) are never apart from undead protectors, either summoned or reanimated.
so the examples from skyrim is a common case of bethesda forgetting their own lore which happens countless times throughout the games. e.g Heimskir refers to Nirn as Earth, there are letters that mention "friday", A female orc was called "gro" etc etc there are many more examples
It IS true that necromancy is a subset of conjuration and there ARE cases in which you are pulling souls from the soul cairn but *summoning* undead is often not considered necromancy, though everyday people in tamriel wouldn't know the difference
gameplay mechanics =/= lore, considering the fact that ingame mages guild members will still use summon undead spells
You claim it's Bethesda forgetting lore but do have an actual source on summoning undead not being necromancy? There is not as far as I am aware and I've look fairly extensively. So, no lore has been 'forgotten', maybe only your head cannon has. If you have a claim, you need to back it up with sources. According to the official lore, explicitly 'Summoning' Undead is necromancy and was banned by the guild. I'd love to see a source that states otherwise.
As you said gameplay mechanics =/= lore, so that you can buy undead spells from mages guild mages is meaningless. The sources we are given through dialogue and books are very explicit in their wording, mentioning "Summoning".
well I did just give multiple examples of bethesda making blatant errors when it comes to lore
the book Materials for Novice Necromancers suggests that spirits already exist throughout tamriel and you are simply giving them form it also goes onto describe skeletons are simply bones held together by magic inferring no soul is used similarly with zombies they simply "retain the memory of flesh"
the whole point of the book Sorcery is Not Necromancy! written by divath fyr, is to say that summoning undead (which he describes specifically as placing a daedra in a corpse) does not make you a necromancer it is also widely accepted for dunmer to summon ancestors and this is not considered necromancy
yes quite a few sources say daedric souls in corpses is necromancy while others do not agree and it is one of those things that has no clear answer. i jumped the gun abit to outright say it's not necromancy rather I'm of the inclination that it is not
though there isn't any reason for you to get heated or upset by my post it's merely a debate but like many things in TES lore there are sources to say one thing and sources to say another there is no outright answer
Sorry if I sound heated, I think I just type very matter of fact. It's not my intention to put you down in any. apologies if I did so. I do enjoy these discussions.
I think you read that source wrong. He specifically is saying making daedra inhabit dead bodies IS necromancy but not all people who summon daedra are necromancers. See below:
"It is also true that summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses, or calling up the souls of the dead for information or other services—in short, necromancy"
He is saying that IS necromancy with "in short, necromancy".
Ancestor worship is necromancy too but it's just socially acceptable.
The contradiction is pointed out quite a few times in lore. You can see below from unhallowed regions which also goes over Reanimated vs Summoned undead (both are referred to as necromancy)
The Reanimated
These monstrosities are formed when a necromancer summons and instills an enslaved spirit, often a minor Daedric essence, into a corpse or construct of bodies. Reanimations take many shapes, from the lowly skeleton (favorite of novice necromancers) to the hulking flesh atronach. The need for unconsecrated corpses poses a danger to communities, as it is known to drive wayward mages to murder in their lust for power. To minimize encounters with reanimations, avoid poorly-kept graveyards and hidden caves or ruins, and report any suspicion of necromancy to your local authorities for investigation.
The Returned
Ghosts, wraiths, and spectres manifest for a variety of reasons. Some are bound to Nirn through powerful curses, some are summoned forth through rituals, and others find their souls unable or unwilling to depart due to unfinished business. Some are even ancestors bound by their own families, a practice the Dark Elves claim is not necromancy at all—guarwash!
Ancestors and the Dunmer touches on this too:
Imperial Policy officially recognizes the practices of Dunmeri ancestor veneration and spirit magic as a religion, and protects their freedom to pursue such practices so long as they do not threaten the security of the Empire. Privately, most Imperial officials and traders believe Dark Elf ancestor worship and displays of remains are barbaric or even necromantic.
What is and is not necromancy is a debate in lore too but summoning undead, when discussed, is always considered necromancy. I haven't seen a single source that states otherwise.
Where did you get that? That's MY copy of Legions of the Dead. Oh, all right. I'm a necromancer. Look. I'll teach you a spell, but you'll have to keep your mouth shut about this. I can teach you the Summon Ancestral Ghost spell, or, if you prefer, I can teach you Summon Skeletal Minion."
Teach me a ghost summoning."As you wish. It's a simple matter, really. [Sharn takes you aside and teaches you how to summon an ancestral ghost.] Now. Remember. You said you'd keep quiet about this."Goodbye
Teach me a skeleton summoning."As you wish. It's a simple matter, really. [Sharn takes you aside and teaches you how to summon a skeletal minion.] Now. Remember. You said you'd keep quiet about this."Goodbye
"I can teach you more necromancy spells. For a price, of course. And as long as you keep quiet about this."
I still can't help but find Divayths views on the whole thing a little contradictory, as yes he refers to it as necromancy but he titled the book "Sorcery is NOT Necromancy!" and ended a quote by saying it does not make you a necromancer so I can't help but get mixed ideas from him, perhaps he was being slightly hypocritical. But I suppose the other example I gave could just be a necromancer trying to "cope".
I'm not entirely convinced by the in-game examples of summoning being referred to as necromancy since there's no raise corpse spell types in Morrowind, of course there IS in Skyrim though.
And my point about ancestor worship was that I believe the Dunmer themselves do not consider it so (as they detest it as a culture) even if outsiders do consider it as such.
I guess the real debate is what is acceptable necromancy vs non-acceptable necromancy, like for example soul trapping is clearly necromancy but there is a line drawn between white and black souls.
sorry for the posts though there was no real point other than debating lol
Divayth in that book is explicitly conceding that the acts he described (binding daedra to corpses/calling up the souls of the dead) are necromancy. His point is that though all necromancers are sorcerers, not all sorcerers are necromancers. He describes how he interacts with uneducated non-magic users who conflate the two, and assume that every magic user is a necromancer. That's what he's arguing against.
In lore summoning the dead/undead is not considered necromancy. It's "summoning" a creature from a plane of oblivion Only resurrecting a corpse directly is considered necromancy. So basically none of the conjuration spells are necromancy other than the reanimate spell lorewise.Still a very cool mod though
I have my lore dump copy and paste message for this :)
Summoning Undead is Necromancy in-lore. And summoning undead from Oblivion is still necromancy as well. Furthermore, in Skyrim, Summoning undead was stated to fall under the Mages Guild ban.
Phinis: If you require assistance with summoning techniques, please let me know. If you would, please also contain your summons to the College grounds. The locals do not need to be agitated further by Atronachs roaming their town. The summoning of undead is even less advisable outside of the College. Player: Summoning undead isn't frowned upon?" Phinis : By Sheor, no. Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild, and were never enforced here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used. Of course, non-mages may not see it that way, so we don't go around flaunting it." Source
If that isn't enough evidence for you, I complied more sources below: There is no definitive source on what the summons actually are soul-wise. Most people make the claim that we are either summoning Daedra or Souls from the Soul Carin that inhabit zombies and skeletons, but in-lore that is still counted as Necromancy.
Now, it is true, of course, that conjuration is a common tool of sorcery, and we sorcerers often resort to summoning aid from Oblivion when a problem is best solved by judicious application of vicious brute force. It is also true that summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses, or calling up the souls of the dead for information or other services—in short, necromancy—is a subset of the art of conjuration, albeit inherently distasteful and degrading.
Even souls summoned from the Soul Carin were once living and still possess autonomy. See the convo with a Wraith from the Soul Carin below.
Cheated! Betrayed! Deceived! You promised! But you lied! Forever! You have taken my life, and given me NOTHING! Eternal happiness? Life everlasting? No! Eternal nightmare! Death everlasting! Nothing now. Nothing forever more. Where is this land of joy and plenty you promised? No days, no nights. Tired without rest. Weary without hope. Time without end. And this is the paradise you promised?
When we summon an undead from the Soul Carin we are controlling a dead person's soul. That is the definition of necromancy.
Necromancy, as you likely know, is the manipulation of souls, soul energies, or corpses of the dead.
Source: Unhallowed Legions
Lastly, summons like Skeletons aren't just Daedra that look like skeletons, they are fully undead. In-game, they both are treated as undead (Turn Undead works on them) and are referred to as undead by NPCs in-game through texts:
They (necromancers) are never apart from undead protectors, either summoned or reanimated.
Regarding Sorcery is Not Necromancy!, it specifically says summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses. Unlike Skyrim, where Reanimate spells target actual bodies, we do not provide the bodies here. As for where the bodies come from, I'm not sure if we have a source? Maybe same logic as the Bound Weapon/Armor spells applies here - Daedric spirits bound into an undead shape instead of a weapon / armor.
Now, it is true, of course, that conjuration is a common tool of sorcery, and we sorcerers often resort to summoning aid from Oblivion when a problem is best solved by judicious application of vicious brute force. It is also true that summoning aedra" rel="nofollow">Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses, or calling up the souls of the dead for information or other services—in short, necromancy—is a subset of the art of conjuration, albeit inherently distasteful and degrading.
The 2.1 version of this mod seems to be causing my undead summons to crash the game. I've specifically tested the zombie, skeleton, and ghost (Ancestor guardian is working fine)
After a bit of trouble shooting, I've determined the conflicting mod is https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivionremastered/mods/2976?tab=description, go figure, a joke spell broke it
would be great if this mod could be made completely compatible with Dark Path of The Necromancer you know for that extra effect and actually make that mod make you feel like a true necromancer more
Hello! Thank you for all your mods and hard work, keep it up!
I enconter an issue with this mod and the Toggle conjuration mod. All 'daedric' conjurations can still be toggled but the necromancy ones have their duration set back to default. As you now don't want your zombies to follow you in town indefinitly, it is not that bad but it is still an unwanted result imo.
I've tried both Toggle conjuration and Eternal Undead (removed/hidden from Nexus) today. If loaded as below conjuration times are extended as expected, but only the Mage's Guild reacts to undead summons. NecromancyBounty.esp NecromancyBounty_BountyAddon.esp NecromancyVendorTweak.esp aEternalUndead.esp OR LongerConjuration.esp
If loading aEternalUndead.esp OR LongerConjuration.esp before NecromancyBounty.esp everything works as intended on the bounties, but no extended summon durations.
Just saw another author has been inspired by this mod to create Daedra Are Actually Bad - their solution to add consequences without it being illegal was to add infamy if you summon Daedra near "good" npcs. Would this be something that could work here as an alternative to the bounty system? Because you're right, although Necromancy is banned by the Mages Guild, it's not illegal, and yet it is very much still frowned upon by the general populace.
This is great, except all the early game and low level conjuration enemies are undead. Need some alternatives to level conjuring. Any solutions on that front? I'll track this mod for now, see where it goes :3
There are actually more non-undead summons than undead summons at near every skill level in oblivion. Furthermore, a plugin is offered under the optional files to switch the starting spell to summon scamp. Don't think much more thant that is needed tbh.
Great mod! One question: I notice that, when you raise your bounty with necromancy, the guards don't immediately attempt to arrest you (until the bounty hits 500, of course). Would it be possible for the mod to trigger the arrest sequence automatically?
That was by design, but of course that could changed.
On your end, if you're not that experienced with the Construction Kit, the easiest way to do it would be through Game Settings Loader. Create a new ini with the lines below (or just add them to a existing one): [GameSettings] iCrimeGoldAttackMin = 100Then guards will confront you after you summon any undead.
Oh, apologies -- I meant to ask, is there a way to trigger the arrest sequence without lowering iCrimeGoldAttackMin across the board? As a comparison, guards will immediately attempt to arrest you if you steal an object in front of them, even if the value of that object doesn't hit the global arrest threshold.
I just want to clarify that the suggested Game Settings Loader "fix" does not do this properly.
Lowering that setting lowers the threshold for you to essentially become Wanted, meaning that guards will attempt arrest you even if they were not the one who witnessed it (ie you get away and go to another city).
What needs to happen for this to work like any other crime in the game, is that the guard who witnesses it will essentially alert themselves, triggering an arrest. That way, if you escape, you retain a bounty but will not be Wanted by guards in general. In that case, after you get away, since you wont be past the Wanted threshold, they should only arrest you on speaking to them, not on sight.
With the current suggestion, you would get arrested on sight by any guard anywhere you go, even after escaping the first guard. And by default, without the suggested fix, they don't even attempt an arrest until you commit further crimes, giving you a bit of a "ghost" bounty in the meantime. Neither of those are correct behavior.
It would be cool to have something similar for summoning daedra, it always bothered me that we can summon daedroths and flame atronach's during the oblivion crisis and nobody bats an eye.
There is less of a precedent for that in the lore, but I do agree it's weird that no reacts. Rather than being expelled/getting a bounty I think it would make more sense to have summoning a Daedra affect either nearby NPCs disposition towards you or mess with your Fame/Infamy. Maybe that's something I'll tackle in the future. (Though, feel free to take that Idea and run with it you like it)
That being said, if all you're interested in doing is adding the effects from my mod to daedra spells, that would be easy to do in xEdit if you wanted to do it yourself. This mod just adds a new magic effect with a script attached to it to all summon undead spells in the game.
To extend its functionality, just copy over the new effect to the Daedra summon spells in a new esp. If you choose to make it, as long as your file still requires mine as a dependency, feel free to upload it to nexus and earn 100% of the DP :)
I always thought it followed along the lines of Demonology in World of Warcraft. The summon spell is used to create a temporary contract with said Daedra it's why it has a limited duration. Also Daedric princes are not always friendly towards eachother, and I might be wrong but the Oblivion Crisis centers solely around Mehrunes Dagon.
181 comments
Summoning Undead is Necromancy in-lore. And summoning undead from Oblivion is still necromancy as well.
Furthermore, in Skyrim, Summoning undead was stated to fall under the Mages Guild ban.
There is no definitive source on what the summons actually are soul-wise. Most people make the claim that we are either summoning Daedra or Souls from the Soul Carin that inhabit zombies and skeletons, but in-lore that is still counted as Necromancy.
Even souls summoned from the Soul Carin were once living and still possess autonomy. See the convo with a Wraith from the Soul Carin below.
Lastly, summons like Skeletons aren't just Daedra that look like skeletons, they are fully undead. In-game, they both are treated as undead (Turn Undead works on them) and are referred to as undead by NPCs in-game through texts:
It IS true that necromancy is a subset of conjuration and there ARE cases in which you are pulling souls from the soul cairn but *summoning* undead is often not considered necromancy, though everyday people in tamriel wouldn't know the difference
gameplay mechanics =/= lore, considering the fact that ingame mages guild members will still use summon undead spells
There is not as far as I am aware and I've look fairly extensively. So, no lore has been 'forgotten', maybe only your head cannon has. If you have a claim, you need to back it up with sources.
According to the official lore, explicitly 'Summoning' Undead is necromancy and was banned by the guild. I'd love to see a source that states otherwise.
As you said gameplay mechanics =/= lore, so that you can buy undead spells from mages guild mages is meaningless. The sources we are given through dialogue and books are very explicit in their wording, mentioning "Summoning".
the book Materials for Novice Necromancers suggests that spirits already exist throughout tamriel and you are simply giving them form
it also goes onto describe skeletons are simply bones held together by magic inferring no soul is used
similarly with zombies they simply "retain the memory of flesh"
the whole point of the book Sorcery is Not Necromancy! written by divath fyr, is to say that summoning undead (which he describes specifically as placing a daedra in a corpse) does not make you a necromancer
it is also widely accepted for dunmer to summon ancestors and this is not considered necromancy
yes quite a few sources say daedric souls in corpses is necromancy while others do not agree and it is one of those things that has no clear answer.
i jumped the gun abit to outright say it's not necromancy rather I'm of the inclination that it is not
though there isn't any reason for you to get heated or upset by my post it's merely a debate but like many things in TES lore there are sources to say one thing and sources to say another there is no outright answer
I think you read that source wrong. He specifically is saying making daedra inhabit dead bodies IS necromancy but not all people who summon daedra are necromancers. See below:
Ancestor worship is necromancy too but it's just socially acceptable.
The contradiction is pointed out quite a few times in lore. You can see below from unhallowed regions which also goes over Reanimated vs Summoned undead (both are referred to as necromancy)
Ancestors and the Dunmer touches on this too:
What is and is not necromancy is a debate in lore too but summoning undead, when discussed, is always considered necromancy. I haven't seen a single source that states otherwise.
Summon Skeleton and Summon Ghost are both referred to as "Necromancy" Spells.
Source: Morrowind:Sharn gra-Muzgob - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)
The dialogue in Skyrim is not bethesda forgetting the lore, its them remembering it.
But I suppose the other example I gave could just be a necromancer trying to "cope".
I'm not entirely convinced by the in-game examples of summoning being referred to as necromancy since there's no raise corpse spell types in Morrowind, of course there IS in Skyrim though.
And my point about ancestor worship was that I believe the Dunmer themselves do not consider it so (as they detest it as a culture) even if outsiders do consider it as such.
I guess the real debate is what is acceptable necromancy vs non-acceptable necromancy, like for example soul trapping is clearly necromancy but there is a line drawn between white and black souls.
sorry for the posts though there was no real point other than debating lol
Summoning Undead is Necromancy in-lore. And summoning undead from Oblivion is still necromancy as well.
Furthermore, in Skyrim, Summoning undead was stated to fall under the Mages Guild ban.
There is no definitive source on what the summons actually are soul-wise. Most people make the claim that we are either summoning Daedra or Souls from the Soul Carin that inhabit zombies and skeletons, but in-lore that is still counted as Necromancy.
Even souls summoned from the Soul Carin were once living and still possess autonomy. See the convo with a Wraith from the Soul Carin below.
Lastly, summons like Skeletons aren't just Daedra that look like skeletons, they are fully undead. In-game, they both are treated as undead (Turn Undead works on them) and are referred to as undead by NPCs in-game through texts:
Regarding Sorcery is Not Necromancy!, it specifically says summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses. Unlike Skyrim, where Reanimate spells target actual bodies, we do not provide the bodies here. As for where the bodies come from, I'm not sure if we have a source? Maybe same logic as the Bound Weapon/Armor spells applies here - Daedric spirits bound into an undead shape instead of a weapon / armor.
Do you have any other magic related mods installed? Are you using a collection?
Check the spells in xedit too
I enconter an issue with this mod and the Toggle conjuration mod. All 'daedric' conjurations can still be toggled but the necromancy ones have their duration set back to default.
As you now don't want your zombies to follow you in town indefinitly, it is not that bad but it is still an unwanted result imo.
If loaded as below conjuration times are extended as expected, but only the Mage's Guild reacts to undead summons.
NecromancyBounty.esp
NecromancyBounty_BountyAddon.esp
NecromancyVendorTweak.esp
aEternalUndead.esp OR LongerConjuration.esp
If loading aEternalUndead.esp OR LongerConjuration.esp before NecromancyBounty.esp everything works as intended on the bounties, but no extended summon durations.
if u dont use that its fine
On your end, if you're not that experienced with the Construction Kit, the easiest way to do it would be through Game Settings Loader. Create a new ini with the lines below (or just add them to a existing one):
[GameSettings]Then guards will confront you after you summon any undead.iCrimeGoldAttackMin = 100
Lowering that setting lowers the threshold for you to essentially become Wanted, meaning that guards will attempt arrest you even if they were not the one who witnessed it (ie you get away and go to another city).
What needs to happen for this to work like any other crime in the game, is that the guard who witnesses it will essentially alert themselves, triggering an arrest. That way, if you escape, you retain a bounty but will not be Wanted by guards in general. In that case, after you get away, since you wont be past the Wanted threshold, they should only arrest you on speaking to them, not on sight.
With the current suggestion, you would get arrested on sight by any guard anywhere you go, even after escaping the first guard. And by default, without the suggested fix, they don't even attempt an arrest until you commit further crimes, giving you a bit of a "ghost" bounty in the meantime. Neither of those are correct behavior.
That being said, if all you're interested in doing is adding the effects from my mod to daedra spells, that would be easy to do in xEdit if you wanted to do it yourself. This mod just adds a new magic effect with a script attached to it to all summon undead spells in the game.
To extend its functionality, just copy over the new effect to the Daedra summon spells in a new esp. If you choose to make it, as long as your file still requires mine as a dependency, feel free to upload it to nexus and earn 100% of the DP :)
Also Daedric princes are not always friendly towards eachother, and I might be wrong but the Oblivion Crisis centers solely around Mehrunes Dagon.