You really nailed it. I really like most of these birthsigns and this is a far more modest and efficient mod of its type. To the author, would you entertain some suggestions of mine? I sense the spirit of the changes is along the lines of what I'd do if I modded the game to my preferences, however I feel some imbalances remain that can be tweaked without stretching immersion/lore. To be clear, some birthsigns stretch their usefulness throughout a playthrough, while others become eventually obsolete due to mechanics/items/leveling throughout the game which is not at all the fault of this mod/birthsigns in general but could still be addressed.
To the Apprentice sign, I believe you have nailed the passive role down masterfully. I would change nothing about the passives. It would be neat to get a lesser/greater power which further weakens oneself to magicka(say 50% for 120s) but fortifies Intelligence(say 30 for 120s), creating extra depth and opportunities in the playstyle.
To the Atronach sign I once again applaud the restraint and leaving it mechanically intact. The Equilibrium spell is of concern to me, as 10 magicka and the manner in which one would restore health(given UOP does not allow spell absorption of self-inflicted negative effects) do not balance out as the name of the power suggests, requiring potions that are typically more difficult to acquire/heavier by nature of ingredients used than restore magicka potions. A loss of 50 health is nothing to scoff at for lower levels, so for all intents and purposes, I feel a more tactful implementation of the concept you're going for would shift the magnitudes slightly; Perhaps a 5:|-1x5|:|-1x5| ratio of recovery as opposed to 1:|-1x5|:|-1| e.g. Restore Magicka 40, Damage Health 8 for 5s, Damage Fatigue 8 for 5s. The issue is in the cost of all other spells and availability of health when adventuring, of course, not in anything particular about the way you've balanced it. If spells weren't ludicrously expensive(hence the need for the magicka pool!) it would be fine.
To the Lady sign I am happy to see Restore Attributes because man, losing IQ both IRL and in-game to Will-o-the-wisps is not fun. Randomly getting strength damage from a stray bandit's poison and suddenly becoming unable to move is also a mood. The restoration utility is a perfect complement. If I applied the convention of adding a passive for the homogony with other birthsigns that do the same(thereby extending use throughout playthrough without creeping obsolescence), for the Lady I'd really do what you've done for The Warrior and give bonus Fatigue/Health here. More on that later.
To the Lord sign The passives are perfectly tuned in my opinion. If having a power for power sake, perhaps a strong Feather spell with strong Fatigue cost? Also a water walking lesser power for memes? Just suggestions, mind you!
To the Lover sign As a greater power, one's expression love is one-directional and has no downsides other than lengthy intervals between use. In reality, love is a cooperative effort and often brings as move joy as it does suffering. For this deeper reality to be manifest here, perhaps a switch to lesser power with a long-duration and weak damage health cost to represent the burden of guilt for falling on the double-edged sword of such a notion with another(the target of paralysis). Otherwise it's exactly as I'd envision a rework of the sign.
To the Thief sign Since attribute bonuses are no more, this is useless you've found a way to make the sign still appealing and even more thematic. I actually prefer this over every variation on Thief I've seen and hadn't even considered your solution. Magnificently done. I've nothing to suggest, as this is quite special.
To the Ritual sign Humor me here: What if... a 100ft On-Touch Turn Level 25 Undead for 60s greater...? Always wanted to make some use of the Turn Undead mechanic, and well, it'd be fun to mess with the Necromancers' summons and naturally spawned companions without necessarily having a high Conjuration skill. For funsies. Being able to summon an extra creature is legendary stuff.
To the Serpent sign In execution, the 3s of paralysis is not viable if limited to once a day, as AI possesses dodge behaviors and therefore a miss will give only the downside: 60 pts total of self-harm. I find this a bit too cruel for my liking and yet the only way I'd change this is to make it a lesser power. Employing use of the power will still give the intended effect, while more adequately encouraging its use. For adding a passive, paralysis immunity couldn't hurt, but then again, I see you are capable of employing useful scripts... maybe this is a huge ask but would it be possible to tweak the odds an enemy gets knocked down from hand to hand and blunt, giving a melee version of the power's intended effect, while increasing effectiveness of poison on blade weapons somewhat? These are ideas well-beyond my ability to implement and while this is 100% your mod, I am giving these ideas freely to be used or ignored as you will; Your mod is what inspires my effort here in this comment to construct upon the ideas contained within and complement your own.
To the Shadow sign Another well-done set of powers. For a passive, perhaps a permanent feather of 25-50 to add to the sense of weightlessness and corporeal essence of shadows, or combo Health/Magicka bonus of 25 for their mystical and enduring nature as "light's impasse" taking the shape of what's being projected onto. Something metaphysical and deep, and all that.
To the Steed sign It hasn't gone unnoticed here that all character attribute(Strength, Agility etc.) bonuses from the Birthsigns have been removed with Steed as an exception. The 50% bonus to what can be carried is a great idea, however, I don't think I could internally justify hauling hundreds of pounds more than someone else of equal strength based on the alignment of stars. I would alter the factor used from 7.5 to 6, a 20% increase rather than 50%. This I feel is more believable in context of game/world logic, as the bones and physical frame factor in alongside strength, thus limiting how far it can go to benefit us. That all said, I feel the limits of how/why the character receives this particular bonus are just as important as "keeping in-theme" and in this particular case, it seems too powerful just within this vacuum, not in any comparison to the other signs.
To the Tower signBeggar's Nose seems to be another well-done implementation of a concept I've been wishing and looking for. I would only suggest adding a passive of Resist Cold 25% as well as adjust the bonus to Fatigue from attributes by 25%. Reasoning: Towers provide shelter/housing/lasting protection for many guardsmen across Tamriel(200 iq logic, I know.)
Lastly, to the Warrior sign I feel the 25 points to Health and Fatigue should go to The Lady. I feel The Warrior should receive the most radical change, as a result of this: Fortify Willpower 20 points; a lesser power that fortifies Block, Heavy Armor, and Willpower 20pts for 60s at 50 magicka cost, and a greater power (Unyielding Charge or something like that) that fortifies Fatigue 50, Strength 20, and Resist Paralysis 75% for 120s.
For the Mage sign left unchanged I suggest adding Fortify Intelligence 10(reduces cost of spells in addition to bonus Magicka); an anti-mage greater power of some kind(e.g. gives spell absorption or reflect spell modestly); and a resistance to Shock of 25%(should help, but not often).
Now, that was a big list of stuff, but I fleshed out everything I could, because honestly I feel this mod is the closest to a "complete vision" for birthsigns any mod has come. What's here is mostly balanced and fair, albeit nerfed or buffed here and there; what these suggestions aim to do is give the idea that each has relatively equal value to one another but has differing value depending on various ways of playing and building a character, as is the point of the layering of these bonuses on top of class, race, and gender. I want Tower to have as much of an "impact" on my decision making for builds as Serpent, and Thief to appeal as much as Ritual, and I want it to be in the shape of your interpretation for these things.
tl;dr maybe I ought to learn to do this myself, but I'm not sure I have the patience and drive to do so... and I just want to say thank you and move on if this comes across the wrong way. The mod is excellent and I will be strongly considering it for now.
Thanks for the write up and nice ideas! Yeah my goal was to make the Birthsigns more unique. Some random (badly written) thoughts:
- I thought it would be nice to have an option in a pinch for Attronach. Like you need to loot something and are deep in a dungeon, but are out of potions etc. Tried to make it so you wouldn't use it that lightly in a combat. More balancing maybe needed though.
- Lady's Restore Attribute was geared to those with OCD like myself, like I always hate when something is damaged. And that's unique spell so you don't ever need to have those damaged. And for the cost the restore health power is the best in game, and being a lesser power I thought it would be enough to differentiate. Pretty much any Birthsign that didn't got a passive, I couldn't think anything that would fit that well.
- Lover Paralyze lesser power, but damage health is a nice idea that could work.
- The Thief was pretty much the thing why I started making this mod in the first place, that and the Ritual Twin Summons. So I'm happy I could make something of more unique amongst the plethora of birthsign mods.
- The Ritual greater Turn Undead is another good suggestion worth of considering, as you say it would be nice to make use of the mechanic.
- Serpent, damage health shouldn't self harm, but affect the victims. My thought was a short (3s) shock with slow affecting poison. Making it lesser power could work with some balancing and disadvantages though. As for the scripting, it's almost a year I did this mod. Atm I can't say how easily those suggestions could be made. But again good ideas.
- Steed. Yeah this was the one attribute I couldn't make as a change in the general movement speed. I don't remember why though, just that it wasn't possible without major side effects. For me Steed has to have something Speed related so I had to leave the attribute bonus, which I'm not that happy about. And that's pretty much why I made the carry weight that much higher, because the Speed attribute will soon be leveled out. Maybe some adjusting would be fine, but I would like to compensate it with better Speed ability, or something else.
- Tower, you're right maybe the sign would benefit from some additional features.
- Warrior. Personally I'm not that of a fan of fortify spells, although something like that could definitely work. I like the Charge power you describe with resist Paralyze etc.
- I tried to balance the three magic birthsigns, and decided to use Mage as base. Apprentice was always the worst I thought with the 50% weakness to magic, so that got halved. The Attronach was a slight afterthought, as it's pretty balanced to Mage already I think.
Again thanks for the comment. And I will definitely use some of these ideas you gave here when I get motivation to work the mod again.
No - As in the base game, swapping birthsigns can be done via console without consequence at any point in time(unlike the other building menus). I believe it's just the command showbirthsignmenuafter installing to make a swap to one of the new signs
Nice mod, I like it. You balanced the Thief birth sign and Lady sign, that is good. Both were too overpowered I think, hence Thief or Lady was my choice to go. Now actually the Steed, Tower, Ritual or Warrior are much more interesting.
Thanks, I'm pretty happy with it currently, although there's still some things I'll probably change, like the Tower I'm still not completely happy with. I've always hated attribute abilties, because eventually in a playthrough those get leveled out, and then there's no difference what you choose. I also wanted there to be some convenience birthsigns like the Thief and the Steed, to differentiate from the more power orientated like the Ritual and the Warrior.
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this is uselessyou've found a way to make the sign still appealing and even more thematic. I actually prefer this over every variation on Thief I've seen and hadn't even considered your solution. Magnificently done. I've nothing to suggest, as this is quite special.Now, that was a big list of stuff, but I fleshed out everything I could, because honestly I feel this mod is the closest to a "complete vision" for birthsigns any mod has come. What's here is mostly balanced and fair, albeit nerfed or buffed here and there; what these suggestions aim to do is give the idea that each has relatively equal value to one another but has differing value depending on various ways of playing and building a character, as is the point of the layering of these bonuses on top of class, race, and gender. I want Tower to have as much of an "impact" on my decision making for builds as Serpent, and Thief to appeal as much as Ritual, and I want it to be in the shape of your interpretation for these things.
tl;dr maybe I ought to learn to do this myself, but I'm not sure I have the patience and drive to do so... and I just want to say thank you and move on if this comes across the wrong way. The mod is excellent and I will be strongly considering it for now.
- I thought it would be nice to have an option in a pinch for Attronach. Like you need to loot something and are deep in a dungeon, but are out of potions etc. Tried to make it so you wouldn't use it that lightly in a combat. More balancing maybe needed though.
- Lady's Restore Attribute was geared to those with OCD like myself, like I always hate when something is damaged. And that's unique spell so you don't ever need to have those damaged. And for the cost the restore health power is the best in game, and being a lesser power I thought it would be enough to differentiate. Pretty much any Birthsign that didn't got a passive, I couldn't think anything that would fit that well.
- Lover Paralyze lesser power, but damage health is a nice idea that could work.
- The Thief was pretty much the thing why I started making this mod in the first place, that and the Ritual Twin Summons. So I'm happy I could make something of more unique amongst the plethora of birthsign mods.
- The Ritual greater Turn Undead is another good suggestion worth of considering, as you say it would be nice to make use of the mechanic.
- Serpent, damage health shouldn't self harm, but affect the victims. My thought was a short (3s) shock with slow affecting poison. Making it lesser power could work with some balancing and disadvantages though. As for the scripting, it's almost a year I did this mod. Atm I can't say how easily those suggestions could be made. But again good ideas.
- Steed. Yeah this was the one attribute I couldn't make as a change in the general movement speed. I don't remember why though, just that it wasn't possible without major side effects. For me Steed has to have something Speed related so I had to leave the attribute bonus, which I'm not that happy about. And that's pretty much why I made the carry weight that much higher, because the Speed attribute will soon be leveled out. Maybe some adjusting would be fine, but I would like to compensate it with better Speed ability, or something else.
- Tower, you're right maybe the sign would benefit from some additional features.
- Warrior. Personally I'm not that of a fan of fortify spells, although something like that could definitely work. I like the Charge power you describe with resist Paralyze etc.
- I tried to balance the three magic birthsigns, and decided to use Mage as base. Apprentice was always the worst I thought with the 50% weakness to magic, so that got halved. The Attronach was a slight afterthought, as it's pretty balanced to Mage already I think.
Again thanks for the comment. And I will definitely use some of these ideas you gave here when I get motivation to work the mod again.
showbirthsignmenuafter installing to make a swap to one of the new signs