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  1. Tinien
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    I want to mention about some mess with a weight of custom made potions. But first a few words about a small trick with potions' weight: if we have various ingredients and some of them weigh more than others then it's better to first use two lightweight ingredients once - in order to create lightweight potion (make sure beforehand that there's no similar heavyweight potion in the inventory, otherwise all next created potions will have the same weight like this one and stack with it) and only then to change them for all heavyweight ingredients with the same effect. So we get lightweight potions with useful effects and get rid of heavyweight ingredients at the same time. But from a certain moment this trick hasn't been working and created potions now weigh much more than their ingredients. For example Restore Health potion made from Fly Amanita Cap (0.1) + Lavender Sprig (0.1) weighs 1 although earlier, when I created this potion from the same ingredients it weighed 0.1. And before that the same bug occured with Damage Willpower potion created from: Lily Nectar (0) + Morning Glory Root Pulp (0) = DWp (1) although initially this potion also weighed 0 like its ingredients. Who knows if this bug will spread to all potions over time. And yes, I always make sure before creating potions that there's no similar heavyweight potion in my inventory. I remember that EBF somehow changes the inventory so decided to describe this bug here. Maybe someone came across it as well and knows the reason of such mess.
    1. Tiawar
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      All relevant code for creating potions is in the Alchemy Menu. Inventory code does not change the weight of ingredients since the weight is defined in the CS. The weight of a new potion is always calculated to the average of all ingredients used when you select an ingredient and gets applied to the potion at the time it is created. Only if you have created a potion with the same name and effects before the game will use that potion instead of creating a new one. The potions in your inventory don't have any effect on this. It's the created base object that counts. This is stored in your save game the time you create the potion.
      So either you have something that modifies the AlchemyMenu code for creating potions or you've created a similar potion before.
      Try renaming the new potion to see if you get different weight.
  2. Tinien
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    Two more questions appeared: is this new BackgroundCellLoadFix (and other, older background load settings) compatible with Oblivion Stutter Remover and its fps managing settings and Critical Sections? Maybe it's just my imagination but it seems to me that the game runs less smoothly than before, sometimes it stutters for a second, probably loading/preloading adjacent cells and their content. Again, maybe it's just me or this particular location (a big stutter occured somewhere northeast of Silorn, south of gro-Bak Camp). I'm not sure if this stutter occured here before.
    And second question, maybe rather stupid: isn't it needed to start a new game after install of new EBF version? Thanks in advance.
    1. maczopikczo
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      I don't think it's your imagination. Somehow I've noticed it too. Not that I know why, but it seems to have started after I updated Engine Bug Fixes (otherwise fabulous!)
    2. Tinien
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      Then maybe it's worth trying to disable BackgroundCellLoadFix temporarily and see whether the game runs smoother or not. I disabled it for a time and tried my best to compare smoothness now and before. Well, maybe right after loading a savegame the camera performs its first quick rotation 180° with a bit higher fps (when the location hasn't fully loaded yet) than with BackgroundCellLoadFix enabled. Or maybe it so seems to me, I'm not sure. Will continue testing.
    3. Tiawar
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      It shouldn't. I've double checked my docs for the relevant code and also installed a logging patch to compare the cells that get loaded each frame for vanilla code and the fixed code. It's completely identical except for the rare cases when the fix does its job. OSR doesn't do anything that could affect the relevant code.
      So, if you're still positive that you get stutter from this patch then the only thing I can suggest is to disable it.

      Starting a new game is never required when upgrading or even downgrading EBF. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that some patches like the new ParentCellUpdatePatch are designed to prevent problems but they cannot fix the related problems if they are already in the save game.
  3. Tinien
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    Thank you for your hard work, Tiawar. This recent update contains two very important fixes. I hope that with this BackgroundCellLoadFix rare CTDs in the wilderness cease to occur for good. About InventoryFix - there's still at least one type of items in inventory which aren't shown until you remove some other item from this inventory. I mean various capes added by OOO, they aren't always shown in the dead enemy's inventory.
    About two new patches. AIPackageNeverRunFlagPatch should repair resurrected NPC's behaviour, as I see it. I remember that in my first walkthrough of Oblivion in 2009-11 I didn't care much about peaceful NPC and allowed some of them to be killed. But these were useful NPC, merchants from Market District, so later I resurrected them. However after that they didn't perform assigned routines, e.g. didn't offer their services. So hopefully this patch addresses exactly this problem and solves it.
    ParentCellUpdatePatch probably should allow new mods to change position/rotation of already existing objects. That means that this patch is useful when the player changes his LO during gameplay, adding new mods, which change already existing content.
    1. Tiawar
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      Could you upload a save game with a container or actor that is supposed to have one of the capes from OOO but where it isn't showing in the menu?
  4. Pinkertonius
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    I can't thank you enough for this mod. This has become absolutely essential to my mod order and even just a few of these would make this mod worth it. Thanks and thanks again. I know the hard work it takes and truly appreciate it.

    - Martin
  5. Tiawar
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    Uploaded version 2.21. This fixes a bug in the InventoryFix as well as the underlying bug in the vanilla code, so it actually adds a new fix. :)
    Thx to gaebrial for finding this difficult to detect bug.
    Those who have downloaded v2.2 please upgrade to the new version.

    On a side note: I've had no luck so far updating the readme file in the Docs section since the upload just never completes for some reason...
    The readme in the main file is the most recent version.
    1. gaebrial
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      I've just downloaded and tested version 2.21, and I can confirm that both the bug introduced in version 2.2 and the underlying vanilla bug are now fixed.
      Thanks Tiawar.
  6. wroma74
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    Thank for the new release... :-)
    1. ElderScrollsFan001
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      thanks Tiawar
  7. monkeyangie
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    hello, first, thank you for the mod

    i wanted to ask, is it possible to fix this bug: when you have a lot of different items on a container and you pass the items to your inventory, you can't see all the items because the list of items only shows some of them (it hides items), and to be able to make the hidden items visible again you have to drop items from your inventory, i hope it is understandable

    thank you
    1. Tiawar
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      If it's the commonly known bug with certain items in containers not showing up in the menu then yes, I have a patch in the making that will (hopefully) fix the problem.
    2. monkeyangie
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      Awesome, i hope we are talking about the same bug, can't wait to test it
    3. CarlosS4444
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      if that's the bug that I'm thinking it is, it manifests itself only when there are many items in the container AND some of them are repaired beyond 100% (with perk from Armorer skill). Or maybe that's enough if some of them are also enchanted/broken, in other words, when they have extra info in the savegame.
    4. Striker879
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      I also run across it with staffs ... unused fully charged staffs stack in a container, recharged will either not stack or will disappear from the container inventory (doesn't seem to matter whether you recharge via soul gems or use a merchant to recharge them).

      With weapons and armor, if they are repaired by an armorer merchant they will stack as normal, and if you have some that are repaired beyond 100% an have at least one weapon/armor piece that is below 100% and you select "Repair All" the ones that were above 100% will be reset to 100% and all will stack as normal in containers (i.e. the "extra data" gets stripped from the item).
  8. rodmax36
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    Hey gotta say, really good job, im so glad you fixed that annoying floating sword bug when using different skeleton mods!

    I would love if you could ever find if its possible to fix 2 bugs that I find incredible annoying, cause both of these require to at least restart the game

    First is one that happens rarely, but when it happens oh boy it happen! for some reason after starting a new game for some reason, the game skips the loading to the cell where you're prisoner (Since i have better cities it immediately gives me the better cities configuration) and after a little the game crashes.

    Second, this one doesnt crash but usually restarting the game fixes it, sometimes my character stops doing power attacks for some reason
    If you hold the attack button, the character raises the sword and thats it and when I release the attack button, he just does a normal attack.
    Sometimes this is fixed when reloading or going to another cell, but other times its fixed by restarting the game. yeah its very annoying



    1. Tiawar
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      First problem could be anything really. A crash log might give some insight into the problem.

      For the seconds problem, we've talked about power attacks not playing correctly some time ago. I've seen high level player not doing the correct power attacks for the weapon and doing a lower level attack instead. When this happens it affects all actors in the cell and usually corrects itself when moving to another cell. Not sure if this is what you are experiencing.
      I haven't found the cause for this yet. I've installed logging hooks into the code to get more information but of course when you do this it takes ages for the bug to happen again. Still waiting...
      It's definitely on the ToDo list. :)
  9. Tinien
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    The problem with corpses in T-pose (when coming next time and reloading this cell) persists. It happened only once so far but still happened. EBF 2.1. When played with 2.0 I didn't encounter this bug. SavedHavokDataFix is enabled.
    And one more thing. Don't know if this relates to EBF but I'll mention it nonetheless. Sometimes it happens that corpses disappear after revisiting the cell in which they are lying. First I thought that they fall through the ground but thorough search "underground" shows no sign of them there. Not enough time has passed for these corpses to disappear "on schedule". So maybe it is game engine itself that removes them in order to free memory? If so then is there any way to change conditions on which removal of "excessive" corpses triggers? And does EBF have anything to do with it?
    1. Tiawar
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      Thanks for the feedback. It's quite difficult to verify that a randomly occurring bug does not occur anymore. Since you're still seeing T-poses I guess preventing the rag doll data overwrite is not enough to stop the problem completely as I had hoped. I'll look into the issue again when I find the time.

      For corpses disappearing, if it's really excess dead removal then you can tweak game settings iRemoveExcessDeadCount, iRemoveExcessDeadTotalActorCount and the 'complex scene' versions (iRemoveExcessDeadComplexCount and iRemoveExcessDeadComplexTotalActorCount). Setting these to very high values should disable the corpse removal altogether.
      Otherwise I don't know what could cause this. The havok data fix only handles rag doll data so it cannot make corpses disappear.
    2. Tiawar
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      I'd like to come back to this since you are saying you're still seeing T-pose corpses. I've done much code analysis and debugging during the last two weeks and I think I now have a good understand of the cause for this bug. The problem is the solution is still the same as before...
      However, I did find a small problem with the FollowerDoubleFaceFix which affects dead actors and occurs in situations similar to those causing the T-pose bug. The result (at least in my game) was dead bandits standing upright and floating off slowly in one fixed direction. I have revised the fix to prevent this from happening. It will be in the next update for EBF.
      The effect of the above mentioned bug differs from the T-pose bug in that the actors have their arms close to the body and as mentioned they slowly move (without the move animation playing) in one direction. Can you remember what the buggy corpse you saw looked like? I appreciate any feedback you (or other users) can give concerning this bug being fixed or not. Remember however that EBF can only prevent corpses from assuming the T-pose. It cannot fix corpses that are already in the T-pose.
    3. Tinien
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      No, I haven't seen those upstanding corpses yet. T-pose bug hasn't occured anymore as well. But when I see it or some other bug I'll immediately report it here. For now I'm more concerned with all these CTDs happening from time to time. They aren't too frequent so as to be a really nuisance but still happen and I'd be very willing to dig up their origin, get to the bottom, so to speak. Yesterday there were two CTDs: first occured when I opened global map (mouse cursor and some pointed location name hung for two seconds after which the game crashed); second CTD occured in the forest when approaching Bravil. Is there some way to determine the origin of these CTDs? And is it possible to play Oblivion without CTDs at all?
    4. Tiawar
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      In some cases a crash log might give a clue as to where the problem comes from. Not everything is a 'engine bug' though. Buggy mods or mod conflicts could be responsible as well. It's hard to tell from a distance.
  10. Tinien
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    Hi, Tiawar. I have a repeating bug with NPCs falling from Skingrad castle bridge despite UOP installed. UOP description says that "Using other fix mods with Unofficial Oblivion Patch may cause some fixes not to work at all or break it even more". How do you think could EBF and UOP conflict in some way and if yes then which fix in EBF.ini should be disabled so Toutius Sextius, Vandorallen Trebatius and others wouldn't fall from this bridge anymore?

    And one more thing. Imperial legion soldiers (which patrol Cyrodiil roads) sometimes go astray and ride through fields and forests instead of roads or appear right under a bridge although they should pass over it. And one time I saw that one of two imperial horsemen, which were passing "under" a bridge, was jerking strangely. When I came closer I was amazed by seeing that his torso was spinning rapidly in the direction of travel right through his legs and the horseback. I haven't seen such glitch so far. I don't know whether these two glitches (Skingrad bridge falls and going astray NPCs) are related but nonetheless decided to mention them together. They may have the same root cause (messed up navmeshes or something like that). Could EBF have anything to do with this NPCs straying? Or maybe it's vanilla bug like "fall from Skingrad castle bridge"? Or maybe OOO is the culprit (I play with OOO 1.5.5)? And of course I wish to know the cause of this first seen glitch with spinning torso of a horseman.

    Edit: one more bug - Imperial legion soldiers sometimes don't attack the enemy but stand still near their horse and mark time. And sometimes Imperial legion guards or city guards all of a sudden attack their fellow guards without apparent reason.
    1. XJDHDR
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      About that spinning torso glitch, does it look like this video?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFdCPcO3Eo

      On a side note, Oblivion uses pathgrid nodes rather than navmeshes. Navmeshes were only introduced in Fallout 3.
    2. Tinien
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      Yes, almost the same, but in my case his torso was spinning forwards and much faster, sharp and jerky. And this gutta-percha imperial horseman stood right under a small bridge in a pit. About navmeshes and pathgrids - I didn't know there's a difference between these two terms. But I suspect that it's Open Cities Classic which could cause such a mess in these pathgrids. I forgot to mention this mod earlier. Thank you for the reply.
    3. Tiawar
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      I've never seen anyone actually falling off the bridge. Just tested with Toutius Sextius and Shum gro-Yarug. They found their way from the city to the castle just fine. I have Better Cities and UL Skingrad Outskirts installed.
      EBF does not do anything with pathgrids. The UOP version history says a road was added to avoid NPCs falling off the bridge. It seems likely that Open Cities is involved in the problem. Have you tried temporarily removing it? The game's pathing algorithm is weak, so NPCs wandering off into the wilderness is nothing special. I don't know enough about the pathing internals to take a deeper look right now so I can only put it on the TODO list. Have you actually seen an NPC walking off the bridge, btw? Or does it happen when the cell loads and NPCs appear in mid air?

      Imperial legion soldiers and their horses appearing off the roads seams to be a common issue. I've seen it many times myself. But since it has to do with pathing I cannot do anything about it right now. Definitely noted for closer examination, though. :)
      Of course, bad pathgrids would also lead to these kind of problems.

      The horse spinning rapidly sounds more like a havok problem. These kind of problems are usually caused by some corner cases in the physics calculation. Most of the time they are not reproducible and therefore almost impossible to fix.

      NPCs not attacking anyone can have many causes. When an actor is loaded into the active cell the AI is usually 'suspended' for some time until animations are loaded, etc. Sometimes this seems to take longer than one thinks it should. It's definitely something I need to look into. If the actor is not attacking at all check the speed (GetAV Speed) in the console. An actor with speed 0 will not attack anyone and just stand around while getting hit.

      Guards attacking guards is just the sad result of the poorly implemented disposition/combat system. Nothing short of a system overhaul can fix this...
      Of course, mods tampering with disposition or aggression could be responsible as well.

      So, all in all, not much I can do right now to fix the problems you mentioned, I'm afraid. The pathing stuff might be fixable once the relevant code regions are decoded but I can't promise anything.
    4. Tinien
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      Thank you for such a detailed answer, as usual, Tiawar. I've read it with a great interest. About NPCs falling from Skingrad castle bridge - no, they don't fall being in direct sight, but do it being unnoticed by the Hero, when my character is somewhere not so far, in the same cell, but cannot see them. For example this can happen when I am in southwest, residential part of the town. So you say that this falling can happen at the moment of the cell being loaded and when NPC, crossing this bridge at this moment, hangs in the air? I didn't know this, I thought that the whole time of my stay in the city bears the risk of people falling from the bridge (when I'm not standing on this bridge myself, of course). This fact (that NPC only fall not in direct sight) seemed very strange to me - until you've explained it. But there is another question - what does Open Cities mod have to do with this bug, if the latter relates to vanilla game and its locations loading flaws?
    5. XJDHDR
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      @Tinien
      I forgot to mention but if you have any save games which show any of these bugs happening, would you be willing to share any of them? Giving Tiawar a reproducible case to look at might help him narrow down the cause.

      Edit:
      @Tiawar
      I forgot to give you an update but the second version of your keyboard plugin fixed the UI problem. The F13-24 keys now all work properly and are displayed correctly in the Controls menu.
    6. Tinien
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      I have such saves near Skingrad however this "falling" bug rather depends not on the saves but on my modlist. Here it is:
      Spoiler:  
      Show
      There are also Darnified UI, Color Map (both installed in OBMM), RAEVWD and RAEVWD SI Edition (both installed through BAIN without plugins to be compatible with OCC and OC New Sheoth). LO BOSS'ed and Bashed Patch'ed (only fixes and Leveled lists in it are enabled). Concerning saves - here are some of them: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19kIhmnjybMHR15PQ6WUPnOpFks6BW8le/view?usp=sharing. I hope such links are allowed here. If you're interested try to run around the city and then check the road under the castle bridge - if it's clean or if there is someone lying in his own pool of blood already. About other bugs - I haven't saved my game near them as a precautionary measure, just in case so that to be sure that my save game wouldn't become corrupted in some way because of such bugs appearing right ahead of me.
    7. Tiawar
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      If you are positive that NPCs don't fall off while you are watching then the problem is most likely in low level pathing and not in high level pathing (which uses actual path grids). The difference is technical but it gives me a hint where to start looking once I get around to analyzing pathing code. That's why I was asking.
      I'm not 'accusing' Open Cities of being responsible for the problem. In the vanilla game the final path goes from the city gate to the castle gate. With everything in the same world space the game has to build longer paths so more can go wrong. The UOP says the problem was fixed by adding a road. I'm wondering how well roads actually work with large scale landscape changes. If these two are out of sync I can imagine lots of pathing related problems. But this is all very speculative atm without having a full understanding of the pathing code.
      Thx for the save file. It may be useful during the debugging phase.
    8. Tinien
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      I don't quite understand what the low level pathing and high level pathing is but judging by your words further and in the previous post, I can assume that this falling bug and straying imperial horsemen have common cause and they both do relate to vanilla weak pathing algorithm. That means that Open Cities may not be the culprit at all which fact gladdens me. I wouldn't want to think that this great mod could have such "side effects". But if so then it's still unclear why these off-bridge fallings happen as UOP should prevent this by building some road. Anyway, this problem is minor since it's local (also I've already completed quest "Paranoya"). At the moment I'm more concerned with behavior glitches of Imperial Legion horsemen which rather often don't attack enemies but stand still near their horses and also after the battle they may not mount the horse but instead stand near it all the same. I've noticed that bumping into the horse and thus moving it can help its rider's AI to proceed. After such "help" on my part imperial horseman mounts his horse and continues his patrolling.

      One more thing: how do you think is it safe for the game to change EBF versions during the same gameplay? I mean to roll back to one of previous ones, for example 1.9 where there weren't yet implemented T-pose bug fix. Or merely to disable this fix in 2.1. In all due respect to your efforts one thought came to my mind: could some minor bugs with Havok physics have something to do with this T-pose bug fix? The thing is that when I return to the battlefield with corpses lying on it sometimes some of these corpses randomly change their position and besides this corpse can partly fall through the ground, get stuck in it and in addition to that some body parts can swing back and forth (I saw that wolf's corpse got stuck in the ground and his paws swung back and forth, when I came to this cell next time). How do you think could these corpse position changes relate to EBF or are they vanilla glitches?
    9. Striker879
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      My observations of what happens with dead bodies as you come close to the cell they are in is that for exterior cells the game suspends the body some distance above the normal ground level while you are far enough away from that cell that the game unloads it. When you return and get close enough that the cell now reloads the game drops the body back down and it will collapse onto the ground.

      A good spot to observe this is on the road just south of Fort Urasek, looking down the hill towards Wellspring Cave. If you are high enough level to get a bear to spawn at the spawn point just east of Wellspring kill it and then leave the area (say go into Roland Jenseric's cabin or Vilverin). When you go back to that spot at the top of the hill looking down toward Wellspring you will see the bear's body drop from say about 6 to 10 feet above the ground and land in whatever pose it assumes as the Havok engine collides the body with the ground (also probably why quite often bears will have that "doing a pushup" pose when you come across their dead body).

      I think the game does this so that the bodies don't normally get tangled up with the LOD that the game uses to display the distant ground (that it then hides as you get closer). The times that the bodies get partially buried is likely when for whatever reason the game doesn't succeed in elevating and then dropping them (Tiawar would be the one to know/find out for certain ... I just observe and come up with theories which may not be accurate).

      Dead bodies in interior cells don't go through the elevate/drop cycle as far as I have observed (which is why they stay in the pose you left them in ... well in the majority of cases anyway). What I do see though is live NPCs dropping onto the floor as though they were suspended in mid-air before I entered the interior cell (which will even trigger the foot sound of landing a jump).

      Fortunately I'm not bothered by any of this myself ... it's a game.
    10. Tinien
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      You have explained everything very thoroughly - so it seems that this situation is also inherent part of the original game and there is nothing to worry about. Yes, I remember having seen some corpses falling to the ground in the distance but not all of them. Some corpses were just lying even when they were barely visible far away. Ok, lets assume this as another small engine glitch. Or even not a glitch but rather different displaying of ragdolls rendering.
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