Have you considered making a version where it takes the Charisma attribute of the NPC you are talking to into account when applying the bonus/malus? Or perhaps an (optional) average of their Charisma, Perception, and Intelligence. Maybe even a modifier based on the NPC's competence in the skill, making them "easier" or "harder" to bluff.
No, not really. I'd rather not complicate it too much, especially with npc's attributes in mind. It just makes everything too unpredictable, since there's no in-game way to know npc's stats. And oftentimes the stats assigned to them don't make too much sense, like Benny, for example, has 3 CHA, 3 INT and 5 LCK. It'd be much more fitting for him to have all 7's or something to keep that casino theme going.
That being said, I *am* working on a big update to this mod, but it isn't what you're suggesting. With this new update skill checks will be lowered based on the player's charisma (e.g. a Speech 50 check becomes Speech 30 with 10 charisma). And yes, barter and speech will be affected. Also, I've found a way to restore some missing functionality to vanilla's nerve mechanic. Although I'm not entirely sure if I should update this mod or make a new one.
The thing that I think would help make Charisma actually useful is if it scaled the Fame and Infamy reputation gains based on how far above or below average you are. So high Charisma should multiply how much fame you receive from a faction and reduce how much infamy you take when acting against them, whereas low Charisma should multiply how much infamy you receive when acting against a faction and reduce how much fame you receive from helping them.
I'm trying to modify the script to change the factor of 5 to 3, but Geck won't let me save the script and gives the error: Could not parse user function parameter list in function definition. May be caused by undefined variable, missing {brackets}, or attempt to use a single variable to hold more than one parameter. for line 13 of the dialogue open script and line 4 of the close script (the call functions). I'm not very familiar with programming or the intricacies of this engine or the Geck, so I'm not sure exactly what I should be looking at as the issue. Did you have the same issue when saving the original script?
Sorry, I don't have FNV installed right now, so this'll be purely hypothetical, but perhaps you haven't installed and activated GECK Extender? The call function is NVSE-exclusive and not supported by default, thus you need the extender to be able to compile scripts that use functions added with NVSE, JIP LN, etc.
I wanted to do the same thing and I encountered the same problem, it is most likely as you say, the GECK extender not being installed or in my case not working, I don't think I'll be able to fix it cause of my setup tho (macOs, wineskin)
EDIT: nvm fiddled with it some more and I can use NVSE functions, it's simply that "call BCModAVSkills BCQuest.iSkillBonus" that the GECK doesn't like, I suspected that different NVSE versions might have something to do with it and in the NVSE changelog I found this for the newest release: "Fixed quest script variables declared using One-Line Multiple Variable Declarations not being accessible for other scripts." so this might have been it and it was fixed in the newest release, but I am running an older version and OP might be as well
EDIT #2: updated nvse and the script saves as normal :)
Glad it's got sorted out, though I'm pretty sure you still need the extender if you want to use new functions from NVSE plugins like JIP LN or JohnnyGuitar. And this is somewhat unrelated but the thing is you don't even need the GECK to compile the scripts for a mod like this one - I've got a working concept of an ESPless version of this mod that is just a simple text file. I haven't uploaded it because I also wanted to do something with that Speech/Barter dilemma. However, since I still haven't come up with anything in particular I can upload it as is if anyone's interested.
Edit: oh, yeah, I completely forgot that NVSE comes with its own extension of the GECK (I believe it's nvse_editor.dll library). IIRC you run nvse.exe with the parameter "-editor" to start the GECK instead of the game and that's why you could use NVSE functions. Without that library the GECK wouldn't/shouldn't recognize them.
Thanks, I updated NVSE from 6.2.9 to 6.3.0 and now the issue is resolved. I was up-to-date at the time and didn't expect NVSE itself to be the root cause. I'm interested in the esp-less version, and personally I have no problem with the speech/barter situation, although perhaps barter skill checks could be included as an affected skill. I think speech makes sense to be excluded if you consider that even a dull, uncharismatic person may still be able to know/say the right words to influence people. Apart from changing the default adjustment factor (maybe customisable in an ini), the only feature I would recommend is to allow modified Charisma to affect the mod's function. I personally think that only using permanent Charisma is inconsistent with the way the game was designed to allow consumables to affect skill checks, so the value of items like alcohol is greatly reduced with this mod's current implementation. If balance is a concern, other mods already exist to create greater consequences for the usage of stat-altering consumables.
Extremely good idea though I would request a version that does affect speech and barter as you could seemingly still just have 100 speech with no charisma and win every argument which doesn't seem reasonable. It'd also make sense if drugs that buffed charisma DID affect this system but I understand if that's not possible. Big win as a mechanic though, sincerely.
Thanks :) Temporary buffs not being taken into account was a deliberate decision, because charisma is by far the easiest stat to boost from 1 to 10, so if they weren't excluded, it wouldn't really solve anything. About your other suggestion, I think I've already given my opinion in one of my previous posts.
How about getting penalties to Speech and Barter in dialogue for having below 5 Charisma like you would for other skills, but no extra bonuses to them for having above 5 CHA? You'd still need to invest into Speech 100 then like normal, but would further disincentivize dumping CHA and would mean a true Diplomat character would need at least 5 CHA, which seams logical.
I I see your reasoning, though I personally wouldn't mind too much to be honest. Needing at least 5 CHA to be able to pass all speech checks doesn't sound unreasonable. Isn't the whole point to encourage people who want a diplomat playthrough to actually put points into CHA? If you can still pass every Speech check with dumped CHA, then what's the point?
Well, it’s true that being able to pass high speech checks with low Charisma doesn’t really make sense, but that’s how other skills work too, not just Speech. However, this mod makes it so that technical skill checks can’t be passed unless the player has high enough Charisma, so I guess it’s only natural that Speech should also follow this logic.
There are some options that can improve the current system: 1. Bring Speech in line with other skills. This introduces a problem I mentioned before when investing into Speech beyond a certain point becomes pointless. 2. Bring Speech in line but only the penalty part (like you suggested). While it solves that issue, I still don’t like the idea that Charisma provides both a bonus and a penalty at the same time, it’s rather misleading. 3. Rather than altering the player’s stats Charisma changes skill check conditions themselves. I quite like this one, since now you no longer need to keep in mind the hidden bonus in conversations. The speech cap issue can be circumvented by leaving a few 100 speech checks with some important characters (certain bosses, for example). It’s a way more complicated approach, though, because it requires to manually edit every single skill check out there. Maybe, there’s an easier way to do this on engine level (like an nvse plugin), but I, unfortunately, don’t require the skills to make such a mod. 4. Make it so Speech somehow influences the current system. This way Speech could act sort of like a counterbalance to Charisma. For example, lower Speech reduces the bonus you get from Charisma, but as it gets higher the effectiveness of the bonus also increases. The formula could be something like Bonus = (Speech / 100) * (Charisma - 5) * 5. The main downside here is that the formula becomes more complicated and pretty much impossible to keep track of when used with solutions 1 and 2.
That’s just my thoughts on how the current system could be improved, feel free to leave your own ideas.
JSUE hasn't been added as a master; there'd have been no reason to. Looks fine in relation to Sawyerbatty as well!
Also, I hope it's okay if I share a slight modification I made (using the JSUE version). I simply adjusted the factor from 5 to 3, so the ceiling @ 10 charisma is +15 and the floor @ 1 Charisma is -12. Love the idea, but just wanted to tone it down a little bit :^)
1. Good to know, I think I should update the description then. 2. Sure, I don't mind. In fact, the factor of 3 might be more balanced. On the other hand, it might be not rewarding/punishing enough to consider not dumping.
I'd suggest applying a factor of 3 to Barter and Speech and a factor of 5 to every other skill.
1) This brings Barter and Speech into line with the other skills, once the vanilla effect of CHA is taken into account. 2) It avoids the odd situation in the mod as is where a low-CHA, high-INT character will be substantially better at speaking and bartering than with "technical" skills in conversation, assuming equal investment in skills (or where a high-CHA, low-INT character makes much better technical than rhetorical arguments). 3) It further raises the value of CHA as an investment stat, because each point into CHA is then worth 3 points into Speech and Barter for every purpose except item prices and qualifying for Pack Rat, Long Haul, and Terrifying Presence.
Seems reasonable enough, although this solution raises its own issues, such as: applying a hidden buff to Speech lowers its effective cap to (100 - whatever bonus you have), thus making any investments past this cap worthless. In other words, you'd have no reason to raise your Speech to 100, because, unlike other skills, Speech doesn't provide any gameplay benefits other than allowing to pass speech checks (except terrifying presence, that is). Barter is still useful, because of buying/selling prices, but was excluded as well, mostly for consistency reasons, and because like Speech it's also already affected by Charisma. As for your other point, I get where you're coming from and I agree with you, but then again the game allows situations when, for instance, a low-INT character has high Science skill: one moment he struggles to make up a basic sentence and then the other moment this same character makes perfect scientific arguments which equally makes no sense.
I really like this, simpler and more efficient compared to other charisma mods, but would you consider making an alternative version which affects just Barter and Speech? The default influence of the stat over those skills is negligeable, you would be able to spend less points in them if you're charismatic by nature or more if you're a sociopath (good for roleplaying) and you still have to pump barter for mercantile purpose. It doesn't sound right to me that charisma affects technical abilities, it would be nice to have this alternative, similar to carxt's but simpler. Thanks anyway
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That being said, I *am* working on a big update to this mod, but it isn't what you're suggesting. With this new update skill checks will be lowered based on the player's charisma (e.g. a Speech 50 check becomes Speech 30 with 10 charisma). And yes, barter and speech will be affected. Also, I've found a way to restore some missing functionality to vanilla's nerve mechanic. Although I'm not entirely sure if I should update this mod or make a new one.
Could not parse user function parameter list in function definition.
for line 13 of the dialogue open script and line 4 of the close script (the call functions).May be caused by undefined variable, missing {brackets}, or attempt to use a single variable to hold more than one parameter.
I'm not very familiar with programming or the intricacies of this engine or the Geck, so I'm not sure exactly what I should be looking at as the issue. Did you have the same issue when saving the original script?
EDIT: nvm fiddled with it some more and I can use NVSE functions, it's simply that "call BCModAVSkills BCQuest.iSkillBonus" that the GECK doesn't like, I suspected that different NVSE versions might have something to do with it and in the NVSE changelog I found this for the newest release: "Fixed quest script variables declared using One-Line Multiple Variable Declarations not being accessible for other scripts." so this might have been it and it was fixed in the newest release, but I am running an older version and OP might be as well
EDIT #2: updated nvse and the script saves as normal :)
Edit: oh, yeah, I completely forgot that NVSE comes with its own extension of the GECK (I believe it's nvse_editor.dll library). IIRC you run nvse.exe with the parameter "-editor" to start the GECK instead of the game and that's why you could use NVSE functions. Without that library the GECK wouldn't/shouldn't recognize them.
I'm interested in the esp-less version, and personally I have no problem with the speech/barter situation, although perhaps barter skill checks could be included as an affected skill. I think speech makes sense to be excluded if you consider that even a dull, uncharismatic person may still be able to know/say the right words to influence people.
Apart from changing the default adjustment factor (maybe customisable in an ini), the only feature I would recommend is to allow modified Charisma to affect the mod's function. I personally think that only using permanent Charisma is inconsistent with the way the game was designed to allow consumables to affect skill checks, so the value of items like alcohol is greatly reduced with this mod's current implementation. If balance is a concern, other mods already exist to create greater consequences for the usage of stat-altering consumables.
There are some options that can improve the current system:
1. Bring Speech in line with other skills. This introduces a problem I mentioned before when investing into Speech beyond a certain point becomes pointless.
2. Bring Speech in line but only the penalty part (like you suggested). While it solves that issue, I still don’t like the idea that Charisma provides both a bonus and a penalty at the same time, it’s rather misleading.
3. Rather than altering the player’s stats Charisma changes skill check conditions themselves. I quite like this one, since now you no longer need to keep in mind the hidden bonus in conversations. The speech cap issue can be circumvented by leaving a few 100 speech checks with some important characters (certain bosses, for example). It’s a way more complicated approach, though, because it requires to manually edit every single skill check out there. Maybe, there’s an easier way to do this on engine level (like an nvse plugin), but I, unfortunately, don’t require the skills to make such a mod.
4. Make it so Speech somehow influences the current system. This way Speech could act sort of like a counterbalance to Charisma. For example, lower Speech reduces the bonus you get from Charisma, but as it gets higher the effectiveness of the bonus also increases. The formula could be something like Bonus = (Speech / 100) * (Charisma - 5) * 5. The main downside here is that the formula becomes more complicated and pretty much impossible to keep track of when used with solutions 1 and 2.
That’s just my thoughts on how the current system could be improved, feel free to leave your own ideas.
Looks fine in relation to Sawyerbatty as well!
Also, I hope it's okay if I share a slight modification I made (using the JSUE version). I simply adjusted the factor from 5 to 3, so the ceiling @ 10 charisma is +15 and the floor @ 1 Charisma is -12. Love the idea, but just wanted to tone it down a little bit :^)
2. Sure, I don't mind. In fact, the factor of 3 might be more balanced. On the other hand, it might be not rewarding/punishing enough to consider not dumping.
1) This brings Barter and Speech into line with the other skills, once the vanilla effect of CHA is taken into account.
2) It avoids the odd situation in the mod as is where a low-CHA, high-INT character will be substantially better at speaking and bartering than with "technical" skills in conversation, assuming equal investment in skills (or where a high-CHA, low-INT character makes much better technical than rhetorical arguments).
3) It further raises the value of CHA as an investment stat, because each point into CHA is then worth 3 points into Speech and Barter for every purpose except item prices and qualifying for Pack Rat, Long Haul, and Terrifying Presence.
As for your other point, I get where you're coming from and I agree with you, but then again the game allows situations when, for instance, a low-INT character has high Science skill: one moment he struggles to make up a basic sentence and then the other moment this same character makes perfect scientific arguments which equally makes no sense.
It doesn't sound right to me that charisma affects technical abilities, it would be nice to have this alternative, similar to carxt's but simpler. Thanks anyway