I was wondering if maybe you could update this mod for 1.5.9? Honestly it seems this is the only Norman overhaul mod that is somewhat accurate and not filled with late stuff. I can provide help if needed,
The Norman cavalry is extremely rare, I'm recruiting them mainly from prisoners, the game is way better with this mod although, thank you very much for your hard work.
There is a separate mod for that called Wrath of the Northmen. It has Vikings and Saxons overhaul for Battania and Sturgia. (Sturgia as Vikings, Battania as the Anglo Saxons.)
I wanted to say that I really like this mod. Love the aesthetics of Vlandian troops now. Great work! I was wondering why none of the troops have any arm armour though. Gloves, vambraces or anything. I think it'd be really cool to see some variety there too! Just my two cents :)
I get you don't want to put them in but you can't tell me gloves are "later period" or more eastern. All cultures have had forearm protection one way or another. waaaay before the Normans. Archers have always protected their drawing arm. Your arms and hands are quite vulnerable when fighting. I thought since most troops have lower armour than other factions it would help. Anyway, cool mod. Still using it and enjoying it greatly.
Yeah that's actually not true. Hand and arm protection in the Roman Empire was extremely rare, for example. Splinted Vambraces (e.g. Valsgarde) probably existed but they weren't really a thing until the 4th-5th century. Padded or scale mittens seem to be in gladiatorial art but we have no evidence of them for legionnaires. Manica was a thing, but really was only extensively used by heavy cavalry.
Yeah, actually, you're wrong. (see how it feels?) First off, we're talking about William the conqueror's army and gear circa 1066. Not the ancient roman army. With that said, there is evidence that Manicas were standard issue for roman born legionaries fighting in the Dacian wars (not only cavalry) together with lorica segmentatas and even from the 1st century. Gladiators used different kinds extensively. Still not being my point. Splinted "vambraces" were used by Anglo-Saxons and Norsemen (Normans) around that period and if you look at the Bayeux tapestry it gives indication of different arm guards being used. There is less evidence of leather arm guards since it tends to breakdown over time. And if you want to get technical, the term "vambrace" was coined around the XIII-XIV century in France. Still, all i'm suggesting is that lower tier troops can use leather arm guards just for a bit more staying power as they scale the tiers without breaking the Norman aesthetic and feel as they reach high tiers and have chain mittens. Again, cool mod, thank you for making it Bullero.
Second of all, no it wasn't. The Dacian Wars was an exception because 1. People kept losing arms and 2. the Romans typically only mention unusual exceptions in their works on military matters. This is one of the reasons why it's so hard to reconstruct Roman combat and military tactics, and why we rely so heavily on the Strategikon since it's all that survives of Arrian and Aelian's more complete military treatises.
Arm defences were rare. We very rarely see them in art (outside of Gladiatorial). The Reason they were used for gladiatorial combat is because 1. it was show combat, not actually intended for killing, and 2. wounds to the arms and legs would cut a Gladiator's career short while wounds to their bodies wouldn't, because they would bulk up and you could inflict flesh wounds to the fat without killing them but would bleed a lot. The only time we do see them consistently in the military is in depictions of Catafractarii or Clibanarii (Kataphraktoi and Klivanophoroi). Maille armor with long sleeves start phasing it out, but for the most part maille haubergons still had short sleeves well into the time of the Norman conquest. See for example the 10th Century haubergon from Stara Zagora, of Roman ("Byzantine") manufacture and one of the highest quality maille hauberks in existence, with a 4.7mm ring diameter. It only covers down to the upper thigh and had short sleeves.
There's only a handful of archaeological finds of splinted defences. Roshava Dragana (2nd Century AD, Thracian Roman) contained a full set of splinted defences for the thighs and legs, and possible vambraces. In fact it's surprisingly similar to 14th century splinted "brigandine" style limb armor. Splinted armor has been found at the 4th century sites of Khudashevsky Grave 160 and Tarasovsky Grave 1685, but it's difficult to tell if it's body/limb armor or maybe even horse armor. A find of an alleged splinted vambrace exists from Abkhazia, 5th, but I have yet to acquire the finds report on that so I can't give any further detail. Fragments of what might be a lamellar reinforcement for a mitten have been found at Sovizzo and Crypta Balbi, but a similar find from Lent in the Netherlands turned out to be a type of comb, so it is difficult to definitively attribute them as limb defenses now. An armored plate vambrace from Sochi is of Avar origin, and there is one armored articulated plate gauntlet from Amlash which belonged to a Sassanid noble. The 7th century Avar burial from Kolked-Feketekepau yielded a left Greave made of splints with a maille footguard attached, similar in premise to the 7th century Valsgarde splinted limb defence. Valsgarde yielded a left greave and fragments of splinted defence for possibly the other leg and forearms. It is the only one of these finds that belonged to an infantryman. Then there is a gap until the 10th century burial at Djurso in Russia, which yielded a limb defence of two large hinged plates for a cavalryman. There is again another gap until the 13th century, when more splinted limb defences from Rus and Steppe Graves appear, all probably descended from the Djurso design.
So by and large, no you are incorrect. We have examples of limb defences but they are spread over a large period of time, and typically were found in the burials of heavily armored, wealthy noble cavalrymen.
And Lorica Segmentata was never "Standard Issue" for the entire army. Armor varied from legionary workshop to legionary workshop until the rise of the centralized military fabricae in the reign of Diocletian. That's why the Robinson Italic-C (Cremona Helmet) has never been found anywhere else, because that particular variant of helmet was specifically produced in the legionary workshop of Legio XIII Gemina. The archaeological and artistic evidence both overwhelmingly indicate that maille (chainmail) and scale armor were the most common. They certainly had a much older tradition than segmentata, but the handful of legions with workshops that produced it may have had segmentata-dominating troops, such as XIIII Gemina or VII Gemina in Britain and Leon, respectively. Conversely, evidence suggests scale dominated in the fortress of Caparcotna which housed VI Ferrata, for example.
Actually the author is right, all historical portraits of the Norman army from that period of time didnt use extensive hand protection. It really was more eastern thing. Maximum as I can see on very few reenactors are short leather gloves. I think you are confused between the XI and the XII Centuries, when the Norman army evolved into all standard armies and were more equipped. https://images.app.goo.gl/9Uszx128Az6LNatDA https://images.app.goo.gl/Wk4stEC1qUq1aW6r8 See the difference https://images.app.goo.gl/FpahisEKScDKf1FH6 https://images.app.goo.gl/yUdbo5F8P3s3o5aw9
Give Feedback
99 comments
I was wondering if maybe you could update this mod for 1.5.9? Honestly it seems this is the only Norman overhaul mod that is somewhat accurate and not filled with late stuff. I can provide help if needed,
Cheers from Normandy,
Thibaud
thank you very much for your hard work.
I wanted to say that I really like this mod. Love the aesthetics of Vlandian troops now. Great work!
I was wondering why none of the troops have any arm armour though. Gloves, vambraces or anything. I think it'd be really cool to see some variety there too!
Just my two cents :)
Anyway, cool mod. Still using it and enjoying it greatly.
Splinted Vambraces (e.g. Valsgarde) probably existed but they weren't really a thing until the 4th-5th century. Padded or scale mittens seem to be in gladiatorial art but we have no evidence of them for legionnaires. Manica was a thing, but really was only extensively used by heavy cavalry.
Again, cool mod, thank you for making it Bullero.
Second of all, no it wasn't. The Dacian Wars was an exception because 1. People kept losing arms and 2. the Romans typically only mention unusual exceptions in their works on military matters. This is one of the reasons why it's so hard to reconstruct Roman combat and military tactics, and why we rely so heavily on the Strategikon since it's all that survives of Arrian and Aelian's more complete military treatises.
Arm defences were rare. We very rarely see them in art (outside of Gladiatorial). The Reason they were used for gladiatorial combat is because 1. it was show combat, not actually intended for killing, and 2. wounds to the arms and legs would cut a Gladiator's career short while wounds to their bodies wouldn't, because they would bulk up and you could inflict flesh wounds to the fat without killing them but would bleed a lot. The only time we do see them consistently in the military is in depictions of Catafractarii or Clibanarii (Kataphraktoi and Klivanophoroi). Maille armor with long sleeves start phasing it out, but for the most part maille haubergons still had short sleeves well into the time of the Norman conquest. See for example the 10th Century haubergon from Stara Zagora, of Roman ("Byzantine") manufacture and one of the highest quality maille hauberks in existence, with a 4.7mm ring diameter. It only covers down to the upper thigh and had short sleeves.
There's only a handful of archaeological finds of splinted defences. Roshava Dragana (2nd Century AD, Thracian Roman) contained a full set of splinted defences for the thighs and legs, and possible vambraces. In fact it's surprisingly similar to 14th century splinted "brigandine" style limb armor. Splinted armor has been found at the 4th century sites of Khudashevsky Grave 160 and Tarasovsky Grave 1685, but it's difficult to tell if it's body/limb armor or maybe even horse armor. A find of an alleged splinted vambrace exists from Abkhazia, 5th, but I have yet to acquire the finds report on that so I can't give any further detail. Fragments of what might be a lamellar reinforcement for a mitten have been found at Sovizzo and Crypta Balbi, but a similar find from Lent in the Netherlands turned out to be a type of comb, so it is difficult to definitively attribute them as limb defenses now. An armored plate vambrace from Sochi is of Avar origin, and there is one armored articulated plate gauntlet from Amlash which belonged to a Sassanid noble. The 7th century Avar burial from Kolked-Feketekepau yielded a left Greave made of splints with a maille footguard attached, similar in premise to the 7th century Valsgarde splinted limb defence. Valsgarde yielded a left greave and fragments of splinted defence for possibly the other leg and forearms. It is the only one of these finds that belonged to an infantryman. Then there is a gap until the 10th century burial at Djurso in Russia, which yielded a limb defence of two large hinged plates for a cavalryman. There is again another gap until the 13th century, when more splinted limb defences from Rus and Steppe Graves appear, all probably descended from the Djurso design.
So by and large, no you are incorrect. We have examples of limb defences but they are spread over a large period of time, and typically were found in the burials of heavily armored, wealthy noble cavalrymen.
And Lorica Segmentata was never "Standard Issue" for the entire army. Armor varied from legionary workshop to legionary workshop until the rise of the centralized military fabricae in the reign of Diocletian. That's why the Robinson Italic-C (Cremona Helmet) has never been found anywhere else, because that particular variant of helmet was specifically produced in the legionary workshop of Legio XIII Gemina. The archaeological and artistic evidence both overwhelmingly indicate that maille (chainmail) and scale armor were the most common. They certainly had a much older tradition than segmentata, but the handful of legions with workshops that produced it may have had segmentata-dominating troops, such as XIIII Gemina or VII Gemina in Britain and Leon, respectively. Conversely, evidence suggests scale dominated in the fortress of Caparcotna which housed VI Ferrata, for example.
https://images.app.goo.gl/9Uszx128Az6LNatDA
https://images.app.goo.gl/Wk4stEC1qUq1aW6r8
See the difference
https://images.app.goo.gl/FpahisEKScDKf1FH6
https://images.app.goo.gl/yUdbo5F8P3s3o5aw9
and I tried to find the villages that produce horses, still nothing.