This contains Historical Feedback From the Sticky, and will be updated when new releases happen:
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Old Feedback on v1.7:
v1.7 News:
- main version up; now compatible with and tested on Stracker's Loader v2.0.2 and MHW
v15.11.00. No changes to balancing per the front page. - optional versions up too.
- All outstanding bugs have been fixed, including the Optional (e.g. the GuardUp version) versions of those fixes.
- I am pretty happy to note that the modding tools have decoded a few
weapon param files, and so some of the control parameters for lance are
available for editing. I am planning on doing a few smaller tweaks to
the parameters, but I am not entirely sure what those will be off the
top of my head. Other Lance mods seem to be adjusting the turning radius
of Charges, or messing with hitstop values. Hitstop values don't really
do anything bad the the weapon, and are important for making the
animations have weight to them. Instead, the real issue seems to be how
long it takes to recover from certain animations, or charge up the Power
Guard into built in Guard Up. Any suggestions are welcome! - I am considering the following changes: Iceborne Lance Rework?? has a number of well thought out wp param changes that are easy to
integrate, and seem to be well received in that mod too?. I looked as
FSM or LMT editing like Schinkikamis Improved Lance? does, but I neither have Blender, nor do I speak enough Japanese to
translate the move-set names without a whole lot of guesswork. So, v1.8
will be more or less the same as the front page, but with the Rework's
wp param changes being used as the basis for my own. This won't be a
direct copy of his changes, but each line item will be compared to what
I've already modified in this mod, and tweaked accordingly. It should be
very similar without being a direct asset copy. I will probably be
taking some of his reasonable COL modifications too, but only if they
are consistent with the guidelines I put on the front page. Here are
the currently testing changes: "- MV23->25 Mid Thrust II
- MV27->30 Mid Thrust III
- MV27->30 High Thrust III
- MV27->45, part break 1.2 -> 2, set stun 30->40 and exhaust 30->20 Wide Sweep I
- Added Mount 2 Dash Attack
- MV75->45, part break 1.2 -> 2, set stun 30->40 and exhaust 30->20 Reverse Attack
- Added Mount 5 Leaping Thrust
- MV apparently I made a typo and the base 50 should be 80, and the new MV from his is 100, so MV50->100 Counter Claw
- The deflection set to 0 causes buggy behavior on the dash attack, so I've
set it to 1 (that is 1 degree of deflection, down from 40 degrees iirc)
Old Feedback on v1.6:
Suggested Feedback Changelog:
- Awaiting Feedback on v1.6; please comment if you have ideas for the mod!
- Old Feedback Sticky was getting too long, so now it's moved under the Article "Historical Feedback Log".
- I suspect that the current mod is relatively stable at this point, and
any changes will probably be tweaks to existing mechanics, or driven by user-feedback. - Element and Status seems to be too high for Kjarr and Safi weapons, based on
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry81314418 ; I don't know if there is a way to balance the normal element/status lances against the OP end game ones. I'm thinking that Capcom probably saw how unpopular their non-raw lances were in the base game, and corrected their oversight with the non-craftable end game lances, giving them pretty insane values compared to normal. I'm much more likely to adjust Element and leave Status alone, if that is the case. Any ideas on how to make end game lances less broken without undully nerfing the rest of the lance tiers? While it is physically possible to try to tweak lance values for Elements and Status and such, I don't know that its is really a good idea when the move values could be touched instead.
OldFeedback on v1.5; (implemented multihit for Count Thrust, and both strikes of Finishing Twin Thrust; missing can give -66%, while
good aim +33%)
- Probably going to keep things mostly stable for the time being. Any specific feedback from users or ideas from me will be
posted here for user review.
--- Playtesting Feedback: several MR missions have shown me that landing all of the hits on either the
Counter Thurst or the Twin Finishers is actually a challenge. Unless a
monster is downed and jammed up in a corner, there's enough movement
that you need to time things and aim correctly to get it to work. Any
thoughts on this part?
--- My "feeling" about how the Lance with this overhaul applied feels: I still spend most of time doing damage via
the poke-poke-poke combos, but now being mobile to rearrange where I am
poking actually deals damage instead of just making the fight take
longer. Anyone else have similar experiences?
- Are there any other weapons that people think need a similar treatment as lance? I main
Lance, Gunlance, and Hunting Horn, but I have tried everything; I would
like some feedback on whether or not this mod actually helps, and how?
Without knowing that, it's a little hard to figure out how to balance
other weapons besides Lance.
- Currently taking inspiration from the Lance changes over at HOOT:
https://www.nexusmods.com/monsterhunterworld/mods/3442?tab=description
--- Going to test a few small tweaks involving merging some of their better
ideas into this mod too. Mostly things like reducing Flinching for
multiplayer, or making hitstop adjustments. I don't think there will be
any major changes, though making Reverse Attack consistent with Wide
Swipe makes a lot of sense.
----
Old Feedback on v1.4; (small tweaks, per the changelog; Finishing Twin Thrust now balanced
with Hammer finisher, and combos have higher partbreak/status/element at
the last strike)
NOW AVAILABLE: Alternate Lance skills: don't like Offensive Guard? Try the Guard Up or Provoker versions!
ALSO NEW UPDATE: Added Evade Window for Evasion Lancers, since they need
love too, and I don't think they get much benefit from the other
options. Also, since I don't personally do Evasion Lance, let me know if
there's a different skill you guys like, it seemed like Evade Window
was probably safer to add than Evade Distance, but I dunno. Any Evade
Lancers have an answer?
Current Questions:
- Should any of the moves have increased Flinch values?
--- Dug around in the files, and Lance already has pretty good Flinch
values compared to the other weapons. I will probably leave it alone
unless there's something specific that comes to mind. For example, are
there any moves that need to flinch that don't?
- If we were to make any of the lance moves have a lingering hurtbox, which ones (if any) need it?
-- Technically, if I use Fexty's IG Overhaul v1.2
(https://www.nexusmods.com/monsterhunterworld/mods/3247?tab=description)
as an example, he added one to the Descending Thrust, setting its base
damage to 11MV, Lingering Hurtbox to 1, and Frame Delay to 3; that means
"It's now a Multi Hit Move: Hits every 3 frames (~5 ticks per
descending thrust depending on height and monster)". Does Lance need
that mechanic? I don't know. It would reward being able to position the
attacks, just like how the Descending Thrust modification now gives
highest damage for getting the longest path through the monster. It
might fit, given how Lance is all about precision and positioning; I
imagine that sticking a Twin Finishing Thrust in just the right angle
would fit that theme (for example, not that I'm necessarily going to do
that specifically). Thoughts?
- How do people like the adjusted Lance moves?
- Does anyone have other suggestions for innate skills besides the ones already out?
- Does the actual Dash Attack need more incentive to actually Dash instead of Dash-Cancelling mid combo?
- Does there need to be support for Element / Status Lancing too? Should
this be done with replacing Offensive Guard 1 with Critical Element /
Status, or do there need to be moves that make moves strike more
frequently, but with less normal damage per hit, like SnS or DB or IG or
SA Phials?
- Does anyone know how to measure how many frames an animation takes?
CURRENTLY TESTING:
- Flinch Tweaking across board.
- Tweaking Leaping Thrust
--- Lower base MV per hit, more hits per attack; to proc element / status
- Tweaking Dash Attack
--- Adjusted Element/Status modifier upwards
--- Slight increase in the number of expected hits per unit of time (reduced frames between hurtbox application)
--- Small amount of stun/exhaust damage per hit (inspired by the Switch Axes with Exhaust Phials)
- Finding which non-spamable attacks would benefit from Lingering Hurtboxes:
--- True Counter Thrust (on the interrupted or cancelled version)
--- Twin Finishing Thrust (not the normal one, the charged up version)
---
Old Feedback on v1.3
Currently looking for reccomendations on how to do any of the following with current modding tools:
- Should the balance on any of the v1.3 move changes me modified? (several conversations about that right now)
---- Twin Finishing Thrust: this deals too little damage compared to regular
Finishing Thrust, since its not spammable, requires a window, and
shoudl logically be our equivalent of a TCS from GS or Big Bang combo
from Hammer. I am thinking of going from 35 and 65 to 120 and 175, doing
the same MV as the GS (non-Power) TCS hits I and II [alternately, you
could copy the Hammer and do 86 and then 100]. TESTING RESULT: going
with 86 and 100, seems reasonable without being crazy, hard to spam too.
---- Poke Combos: each of these pokes could have increasing partrbreaks,
status, or element values; that would make them still very useful,
without actually changing their damage output. The idea is that the
first hit is normal, then then the 2nd and 3rd hits have better utility
for breaking parts or apply status/element. TESTING RESULT: base combo
now has increasing partbreak, element, and status for each hit in the
combo, some other moves had their status/element or partbreak tweaked
upward.
---- Leap Attack: increased Status/Element partbreak. It's not a bad attack, but you generally don't have a good reason to do it.
TESTING RESULT: see above
---- Any other attacks of note?
- Should Minds Eye stay?
- Decrease the delay before you can block after attacks. Reported Here:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80689083 .
Basically, I don't know how the hit lag values for the Lance moves
relate to the delay before you can guard, or if there is an entirely
different field that handles the guarding animation delays.
- Add Guard-Up, Guard 5 (or at least 3), Offensive Guard 3 (or at least 1)
automatically to Lances/Lance-users. Reported Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_vImnipujo. The thing that bothers me about the current tooling capabilities is
that we can totally add these things onto gems and armor and charms, but
Lance weapons can only take one innate skill per weapon, and it only
gives 1 level of that skill (should I add one free level of Guard to all
Lances that don't already have a skill taking up that slot? If they
already have a skill there, should I add an extra decoration socket?).
That means that any changes I make to this abilties actually benefits
all weapons, not just Lance. Is that what I'm trying to do? I don't
know.
- Should I change the added Offensive Guard 1 to something else? Add Guard-Up OR Guard 1 OR Offensive Guard 1 OR add one extra
small decoration slot to each lance weapon. It has been suggested that
Provoker might be better, any other ideas?
---
Old Feedback on v1.2; Thank you all for your diligence and insights! I've
learned more about Lance talking to you all in a day than I did in 75+
hours of maining it.
Currently looking for reccomendations on how to do any of the following with current modding tools:
- Decrease the delay before you can block after attacks. Reported Here:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80689083 .
Basically, I don't know how the hit lag values for the Lance moves
relate to the delay before you can guard, or if there is an entirely
different field that handles the guarding animation delays.
- Add Guard-Up, Guard 5 (or at least 3), Offensive Guard 3 (or at least 1)
automatically to Lances/Lance-users. Reported Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_vImnipujo. The thing that bothers me about the current tooling capabilities is
that we can totally add these things onto gems and armor and charms, but
Lance weapons can only take one innate skill per weapon, and it only
gives 1 level of that skill (should I add one free level of Guard to all
Lances that don't already have a skill taking up that slot? If they
already have a skill there, should I add an extra decoration socket?).
That means that any changes I make to this abilties actually benefits
all weapons, not just Lance. Is that what I'm trying to do? I don't
know.
- Add Guard-Up OR Guard 1 OR Offensive Guard 1 OR add one extra small decoration slot to each lance weapon: This is actually a
doable thing, but I don't know that it really fixes anything, espcially
since Lance users could do literally anything with that slot. It's an
alternative compromise to the second option.
---
Old v1.1 issues:
1. Shield Attack does too much for being comboable (confirmed, you can
just keep hitting the same buttons to repeat it indefinitely, new
changes seem to balance vs poke-poke-poke or sweep sweep sweep; also
very hard to aim unless something is sitting still); Changes: TESTING
50MV 50 Stun/Exhaust; Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80672643
2. Mounting damage seems a little high; Changes: TESTING Mounting Head
Final Thrust to about 2/3 the damage (seem okay, I don't really mount
things enough to know how to abuse it at this point); Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80672198
Making these changes for v1.2: (read as: v1.1 >> v1.2)
* Jumping Thrust: 110 / 30 >> 50 / 30
* Finishing Thrust Mount (head): [120, 175, 211] / [10, 20, 40] (same as
GS True Charge Slash I, II, II) >> [78, 120, 175] / [10, 20, 40]
(similar to GS Charge Slash I, II, II)
* Shield Attack: 110 (Stun/Exhaust 100) / 14 (Stun/Exhaust 27) >> 50 (Stun/Exhaust 50) / 14 (Stun/Exhaust 27)
---
v1.0 Changes:
Thank you all for helping to figure out a more reasonable balancing for this
mod! This sticky comment will be updated to keep a changelog of
suggested changes, and links to the individual comments that explain
them:
1. Leaping Thrust: This is cancel-spamabble, and I did not know that. Changes: TBD. Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80665288
2. Counter Thrust: Probably does more damage than intended by about
half. Changes: TBD. Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80661918
3. Changing Vanilla Meta away from Poke-Poke-Poke: Not sure on this one
yet. Certainly, poking should still be the most reliable way to deal
damage while protecting yourself. More testing is needed, I think. Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80665648
4. Finishing Thrust and Reverse Attack are Spamable: Yeah, more than I
thought they would be. Changes: TBD, suggestion from thread give numbers
that I will look at. Link:
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80662218
Currently testing: "For example i'd put Finishing Thrust and the Reverse Attack
to 75, Counter-thrust to 85, Leaping Thrust to 12, Finishing Twin
Thrust(1st) to 35, Finishing Twin Thrust(2nd) to 65, and I'd keep the
clutch and mouting damage the same" from
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?showtopic=8692458/#entry80662218 .
I am also testing to see if you can spam Dash Guard to Shield Attack,
but I haven't been able to cancel the recovery animation like the
Leaping Thrust does.
Testing Results: for those changes above this line, they seem less spamable, and a bit closer to the
poke-poke-poke combos for the similar amout of time. I am putting out
v1.1 incoporating those changes.
Version 1.1 posted, thank you everyone for your feedback! As always, if you have more I will be happy to hear it.
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