I'm a dedicated liaramancer and MAN does it make those lines about having a family hit even harder after she previously talked about little blue children with Liara. So glad these frankly necessary lines are back in the game and ready to make me cry my eyes out. Thank you for making it happen!
This is a beautiful mod, worked fantastically immediately and added so much more to that moment at the end.
Thanks for taking the time and doing this, and sharing with us. Combing through the comments, also kudos for the respect you've paid to modders and for your mindfulness :)
Can you please update this mod so that the scene plays like the original Extended Final Anderson Conversation from HelixSpirsal (JohnP), I used his mod for ME3 and he changed the timings and camera positioning to make the scene flow better check his one if you don't know what I mean, i think you'll agree the scene plays better in that one.
Okay so no, for a whole bunch of reasons. Firstly it's not cool to straight up remake people's mods without permission. It's not okay with Nexus and that's a stance I agree with.
Secondly, JohnP's mod is a mod I know well and have a lot of respect for. If you prefer it that is absolutely valid. But JohnP's is the version with more minimal artistic adjustments. It was made with a very primitive version of the tools, and a lot of the decisions were pragmatic (to hide missing facefx or replace broken camera shots). Again, this is not a criticism of that mod. What it achieved on that toolset is outstanding and I doubt I could have done it. But factually, its cinematic design was under much more extreme limitations.
So any changes you see to what you're used to with JohnP's mod are things I did deliberately and carefully, because I wanted it to be that way. If you're interested in more on that, I did write up an article on the restoration process.
And again, you do not have to agree with me. I'm genuinely fine with people liking a different version better and expect eventually alternate versions of this scene will be released. I don't own cut content, and people are welcome to do so!
But I'd encourage you, the next time you leave feedback for a modder, not to assume that they made their mod in a particular way by accident or through ignorance, just because it's not your preference. If nothing else, "hey your mod is bad, make it like this other one that's better," isn't a winning strategy if your goal is to get someone to do extra work for you... ;)
Ok, I just thought that based on the differences between both mods and how JohnP said he tweaked the scenes to smooth out the rough patches, that yours was more of a barebones reintroduction of the scene not modified from the unpolished state that had been cut from the game by the devs, and that you could and would have the know how to tweak it in a similar way JohnP did to the original mod, and not a exact copy unless you got permission from him, which I didn't think needed to be said.
If i had the know how myself i would do it myself, but i wouldn't know where to begin as I really dont understand how to make mods, thanks anyway.
I mean, the mod description is super short and this is the first paragraph:
This mod restores cut content, extending the final conversation with Anderson. Facial animation, gestures, camera work and musical cues have all been reworked extensively, to hopefully provide a polished, professional interpretation of the scene.
So again, I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, but you did kinda show up to give me modding advice, after assuming I'd done a rush job - that I knew how to make these sorts of edits, but didn't bother - without reading like...a single sentence of the mod page.
For the rest, JohnP did tweak rough patches, but not as extensively as I did. Again, that's not a criticism - different toolset, different goals, different preferences. Unfortunately people do ask for other modders to straight up port mods and redo mods, so it does need to be said. I totally accept that wasn't your intention in this instance, but that's why I addressed it.
If you want to try your hand at modding your own version of the scene, check out the article I posted in the articles section and scroll to the bottom. There's some links to some of the resources I used. The documentation for the toolset is much better than it used to be. I don't come from a programming background and I learned to do this. So can you if you want to.
I'm curious about this stance against modding mods, since this is a mod site that mods games without the original game designer's permission in the first place, it seems a hypocritical stance to take. I say "seems" because there may be some nuance I'm missing here and I'm open to correction.
for some reason i didn't get a notification of this comment. i also don't know why i'm being put in the hotseat here and don't much appreciate it because i've prior experience of situations like this not being raised in good faith. i'm hoping you are asking in good faith, so i'm going to answer.
there are a number of nuances, but ultimately this is my take on the situation. at a basic level the chief difference to me is the nature of fan creations vs commercial properties and an issue of being respectful to others engaged in the hobby, like on an interpersonal level.
this dynamic isn't unique to modding, it exists for fan works in general (fan fiction, video edits, fan films, etc). these exist in a grey area of fair use. there are some solid arguments that they should be protected as fair use under the laws of various jurisdictions but this isn't true of all fan works or all jurisdictions and it's mostly untested. generally fanworks are allowed to exist by the copyright holders - even sometimes in semi-monetised states (see bethesda games, or nexus' DP system) - because they add overall value to the intellectual property. an active fandom increases the value of the show/game/book series. it keeps people engaged and interested, even if content isn't being actively generated. also, if a mod crosses the line and ea or bioware aren't happy with it they can ask nexus to remove the mod and nexus will almost certainly comply. so there is absolutely a mechanism for the games publisher to take down mods they feel cross whatever line in the sand they have drawn.
so the dynamic of making a mass effect mod and bioware's intellectual property is not me directly replicating their work and then passing it on. one of the big reasons that the our scene refuses to support pirate installs, is that its important for modding to clearly represent no threat to the value of the original. our mods cannot be used without a legally purchased copy of the game. so anything we do is additive, it's not a replacement. and it adds value.
the dynamic of directly remaking someone else's mass effect mod is to directly replace it. the dynamic of remaking a mod with changes and differences gets murkier, because ideas aren't owned, i can't hive off sections of the game and say "hey nobody mod the cut anderson conversation content!" because i don't own that. i can't say "hey nobody else add a way to delay the crew abduction!" because that's obviously a really broad idea that people have wanted for ages. i just happened to make it first. if someone literally copies my method/code/exact technique to do that, though, then i would have a case i could bring to nexus's attention. the line between these situations can sometimes be difficult to define.
as a thought experiment, perhaps we can imagine an argument that if someone made a mod that added onto a mod, and required its install, but also fundamentally changed the behaviour and nature of that mod, would that be more in line with something that "added value" to a mod whether or not the original mod dev consented to it? i mean yes, you could make that argument. but i would argue there's a difference in scale of such magnitude between a mod on nexus with a few thousand downloads, and game published by a company with billions in annual revenue, that it's not particularly meaningful in terms of "adding value". you don't have a "fandom" that supports and elevates another mod/dev in that way. there isn't the space of separation. we're all down here in a community dealing with each other.
which brings us back to the other part - the social aspect. like...just the part where you aren't intentionally a jerk to someone else in the same scene because then it's not any fun to be here and continue to mod stuff.
no one will ever agree on the exact terms of the social contract, but i think most people agree a social contract exists. nexus's terms of use prevent direct copying or distribution of others' files. they have this rule because it makes modders feel comfortable sharing their fan works here. you may feel it's a hypocritical rule, but it's clearly one that's valued by people investing time and effort into this stuff. for instance, i just released an update to my early recruitment mod that lets you recruit legion early. because of the amount of cinematic content and the difficulty of creating that, i'd estimate it took me hundreds of hours to make. if someone made a few minor tweaks to my files, uploaded them again, and rendered my mod totally obsolete, getting attention, downloads and kudos (the "currency" of fandom) when i did most of the work, that would feel really, really crappy to me. like it would just suck and not be fun and i wouldn't be super motivated to keep releasing stuff. similarly, i would feel really, really uncomfortable rooting through JohnP's files and directly recreating his mod, in a way i don't feel uncomfortable looking at the original files and working out how to do it for myself, with my creative vision. to me that feels like a clear and obvious line based in consideration for the original effort and care JohnP put into that mod.
since this is already too long, it's probably also worth side-tracking into personal use modding. that means modding stuff on your own computer that you're not planning to release. there i don't care what people do with my mods. like i'm not gonna offer technical support, but also knock yourself out, do what you like. there are some people who take issue with this, and personally i disagree with that stance. that attitude is rare in the mass effect scene. a lot of us got our start in modding tweaking other mods to personal preference and the unspoken rule of that is just not to be weird at the modder about it and not to expect technical support, but otherwise, go for it.
by not being weird at the modder about it what i mean is again just...basic social consideration. it's not nice to show up in a server where the modder hangs out, announce you hate this aspect of their work and ask them directly for hand-holding help to change it. which yes, i've seen happen. similarly, i've gotten at least one creepy DM telling me that they were gonna be editing my mod for personal use while being weird about it in a way that felt very much like an attempt to be creepy with "i'm editing your files, you can't stop me..." again the issue here not being editing my files for personal use but the tone/intent behind telling me in that way.
again we come back to the fact that it's hard to imagine a scenario with someone directly copying and redistributing someone's mod without permission that isn't just...gonna feel like jerk behaviour on a personal level. and a modding scene is a small community of hobbyists where treating each other well and making it a fun place to be matters. and to my mind matters more than a sophistic logical contortion that feelings don't matter, its deontologically acceptable, so shut up about it.
so to sum up, i think the big difference is the power dynamics of fans vs massive corporations. nexusmods provides both with avenues to get stuff taken down if you feel it directly infringes on a part of the original work in a way that goes too far. but the considerations are very different. the games companies are commercial entities with an interest in maintaining a fandom and no direct interactions with the scene. modders and mod users form a community with a much flatter power structure that needs to coexist and that requires a different set of standards.
i'm glad you like the scene. personally i'd debate the lore issue - i think jason probably was intended to be anderson's kid when that dossier was written, but it's weird he's never mentioned again even at points it would make sense (citadel biogs, conversations in london about his background). makes him seem oddly callous. if you dislike the seeming contradiction and the mod's not for you because of that, that's honestly fine! but i'm not really sure what the point of devoting a comment to it is though. feels slightly like a backhanded compliment.
The scene exists in the files, it's not like you created the scene from scratch. Not sure why you'd be offended at me saying it's not completely lore-friendly, which it isn't. Like I said though, awesome scene. I'm not criticizing your work of including scenes that were deleted by the devs. I'm commenting on it as a whole, and pointing out the reason why it probably is a deleted scene in the first place.
i'm not offended you don't like the scene, as you say i didn't write it (though it doesn't exist in complete form in the files, there are instead severla unfinished versions - if you're interested there's an article on the process of restoring this interpretation). i just find it weird, generally, when people show up on stuff to specifically let people know they're not gonna use it. like okay, cool, not sure why you felt i needed to know that.
like "hey, cool thing, shame about this part of it," usually comes across more as an excuse to remind everyone about the thing that's a shame.
i can't know what's in your head, so if that wasn't your intent, i'm happy to believe that. but it's how a lot of people take stuff like that. i'm just blunt enough to say it.
for the record, having rifled through the files, it looks a lot more like they were iterating and trying different versions of the scene til they just ran out of time - the file is extremely messy and we know it was a rushed development cycle. but if you think it was because of the codex entry instead i guess it's possible.
You're assuming I didn't use it. You're taking my comment negatively, when it is literally just stating facts. Its a awesome scene, and I wish it was lore-friendly. That's it.
If you are using AHEM you do not need to install this mod. It is already part of AHEM. Just follow the instructions for installing SBG and AHEM together. I personally don't know what those are, but you don't need to worry about this mod at all. It's all in AHEM.
this had me ugly-crying. i have no idea why they'd cut this from the game, it's an absolutely beautiful send-off for Anderson. THANKYOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US THIS GIFT.
People believe this was remove because the line were Anderson states he never had a child is wrong and that he actually has a son named Jason from his ex-wife Cynthia. While not directly known or not it is kind of hinted at in he Shadow Broker's Dossiers.
I seriously doubt they got all the way through script approval, recording, sequencing and putting the entire thing, mostly finished, into the game before someone went "crap, this emotionally impactful moment is amazing, but changes the implications of a codex entry!" Not in a game where you have things like Samara's dialogue about her daughters directly contradicting the ardat-yakshi codex entry in the same game.
I think it's a shame they removed it, but it was probably because someone had a more direct artistic reason, or due to time or budgetary constraints.
As for Jason, as you say the dossier is unclear. He could have been Jason's stepfather for several years, or be an uncle-figure. I agree that at the time it was written it was probably intended Jason be Anderson's son but there's no outright conflict here.
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Thanks for taking the time and doing this, and sharing with us. Combing through the comments, also kudos for the respect you've paid to modders and for your mindfulness :)
Awesome work, thank you!
Secondly, JohnP's mod is a mod I know well and have a lot of respect for. If you prefer it that is absolutely valid. But JohnP's is the version with more minimal artistic adjustments. It was made with a very primitive version of the tools, and a lot of the decisions were pragmatic (to hide missing facefx or replace broken camera shots). Again, this is not a criticism of that mod. What it achieved on that toolset is outstanding and I doubt I could have done it. But factually, its cinematic design was under much more extreme limitations.
So any changes you see to what you're used to with JohnP's mod are things I did deliberately and carefully, because I wanted it to be that way. If you're interested in more on that, I did write up an article on the restoration process.
And again, you do not have to agree with me. I'm genuinely fine with people liking a different version better and expect eventually alternate versions of this scene will be released. I don't own cut content, and people are welcome to do so!
But I'd encourage you, the next time you leave feedback for a modder, not to assume that they made their mod in a particular way by accident or through ignorance, just because it's not your preference. If nothing else, "hey your mod is bad, make it like this other one that's better," isn't a winning strategy if your goal is to get someone to do extra work for you... ;)
If i had the know how myself i would do it myself, but i wouldn't know where to begin as I really dont understand how to make mods, thanks anyway.
So again, I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, but you did kinda show up to give me modding advice, after assuming I'd done a rush job - that I knew how to make these sorts of edits, but didn't bother - without reading like...a single sentence of the mod page.
For the rest, JohnP did tweak rough patches, but not as extensively as I did. Again, that's not a criticism - different toolset, different goals, different preferences. Unfortunately people do ask for other modders to straight up port mods and redo mods, so it does need to be said. I totally accept that wasn't your intention in this instance, but that's why I addressed it.
If you want to try your hand at modding your own version of the scene, check out the article I posted in the articles section and scroll to the bottom. There's some links to some of the resources I used. The documentation for the toolset is much better than it used to be. I don't come from a programming background and I learned to do this. So can you if you want to.
That's actually some pretty idiotic reasoning right there rather than hypocrisy on anybody else's part.
there are a number of nuances, but ultimately this is my take on the situation. at a basic level the chief difference to me is the nature of fan creations vs commercial properties and an issue of being respectful to others engaged in the hobby, like on an interpersonal level.
this dynamic isn't unique to modding, it exists for fan works in general (fan fiction, video edits, fan films, etc). these exist in a grey area of fair use. there are some solid arguments that they should be protected as fair use under the laws of various jurisdictions but this isn't true of all fan works or all jurisdictions and it's mostly untested. generally fanworks are allowed to exist by the copyright holders - even sometimes in semi-monetised states (see bethesda games, or nexus' DP system) - because they add overall value to the intellectual property. an active fandom increases the value of the show/game/book series. it keeps people engaged and interested, even if content isn't being actively generated. also, if a mod crosses the line and ea or bioware aren't happy with it they can ask nexus to remove the mod and nexus will almost certainly comply. so there is absolutely a mechanism for the games publisher to take down mods they feel cross whatever line in the sand they have drawn.
so the dynamic of making a mass effect mod and bioware's intellectual property is not me directly replicating their work and then passing it on. one of the big reasons that the our scene refuses to support pirate installs, is that its important for modding to clearly represent no threat to the value of the original. our mods cannot be used without a legally purchased copy of the game. so anything we do is additive, it's not a replacement. and it adds value.
the dynamic of directly remaking someone else's mass effect mod is to directly replace it. the dynamic of remaking a mod with changes and differences gets murkier, because ideas aren't owned, i can't hive off sections of the game and say "hey nobody mod the cut anderson conversation content!" because i don't own that. i can't say "hey nobody else add a way to delay the crew abduction!" because that's obviously a really broad idea that people have wanted for ages. i just happened to make it first. if someone literally copies my method/code/exact technique to do that, though, then i would have a case i could bring to nexus's attention. the line between these situations can sometimes be difficult to define.
as a thought experiment, perhaps we can imagine an argument that if someone made a mod that added onto a mod, and required its install, but also fundamentally changed the behaviour and nature of that mod, would that be more in line with something that "added value" to a mod whether or not the original mod dev consented to it? i mean yes, you could make that argument. but i would argue there's a difference in scale of such magnitude between a mod on nexus with a few thousand downloads, and game published by a company with billions in annual revenue, that it's not particularly meaningful in terms of "adding value". you don't have a "fandom" that supports and elevates another mod/dev in that way. there isn't the space of separation. we're all down here in a community dealing with each other.
which brings us back to the other part - the social aspect. like...just the part where you aren't intentionally a jerk to someone else in the same scene because then it's not any fun to be here and continue to mod stuff.
no one will ever agree on the exact terms of the social contract, but i think most people agree a social contract exists. nexus's terms of use prevent direct copying or distribution of others' files. they have this rule because it makes modders feel comfortable sharing their fan works here. you may feel it's a hypocritical rule, but it's clearly one that's valued by people investing time and effort into this stuff. for instance, i just released an update to my early recruitment mod that lets you recruit legion early. because of the amount of cinematic content and the difficulty of creating that, i'd estimate it took me hundreds of hours to make. if someone made a few minor tweaks to my files, uploaded them again, and rendered my mod totally obsolete, getting attention, downloads and kudos (the "currency" of fandom) when i did most of the work, that would feel really, really crappy to me. like it would just suck and not be fun and i wouldn't be super motivated to keep releasing stuff. similarly, i would feel really, really uncomfortable rooting through JohnP's files and directly recreating his mod, in a way i don't feel uncomfortable looking at the original files and working out how to do it for myself, with my creative vision. to me that feels like a clear and obvious line based in consideration for the original effort and care JohnP put into that mod.
since this is already too long, it's probably also worth side-tracking into personal use modding. that means modding stuff on your own computer that you're not planning to release. there i don't care what people do with my mods. like i'm not gonna offer technical support, but also knock yourself out, do what you like. there are some people who take issue with this, and personally i disagree with that stance. that attitude is rare in the mass effect scene. a lot of us got our start in modding tweaking other mods to personal preference and the unspoken rule of that is just not to be weird at the modder about it and not to expect technical support, but otherwise, go for it.
by not being weird at the modder about it what i mean is again just...basic social consideration. it's not nice to show up in a server where the modder hangs out, announce you hate this aspect of their work and ask them directly for hand-holding help to change it. which yes, i've seen happen. similarly, i've gotten at least one creepy DM telling me that they were gonna be editing my mod for personal use while being weird about it in a way that felt very much like an attempt to be creepy with "i'm editing your files, you can't stop me..." again the issue here not being editing my files for personal use but the tone/intent behind telling me in that way.
again we come back to the fact that it's hard to imagine a scenario with someone directly copying and redistributing someone's mod without permission that isn't just...gonna feel like jerk behaviour on a personal level. and a modding scene is a small community of hobbyists where treating each other well and making it a fun place to be matters. and to my mind matters more than a sophistic logical contortion that feelings don't matter, its deontologically acceptable, so shut up about it.
so to sum up, i think the big difference is the power dynamics of fans vs massive corporations. nexusmods provides both with avenues to get stuff taken down if you feel it directly infringes on a part of the original work in a way that goes too far. but the considerations are very different. the games companies are commercial entities with an interest in maintaining a fandom and no direct interactions with the scene. modders and mod users form a community with a much flatter power structure that needs to coexist and that requires a different set of standards.
like "hey, cool thing, shame about this part of it," usually comes across more as an excuse to remind everyone about the thing that's a shame.
i can't know what's in your head, so if that wasn't your intent, i'm happy to believe that. but it's how a lot of people take stuff like that. i'm just blunt enough to say it.
for the record, having rifled through the files, it looks a lot more like they were iterating and trying different versions of the scene til they just ran out of time - the file is extremely messy and we know it was a rushed development cycle. but if you think it was because of the codex entry instead i guess it's possible.
Now i wanna cry
Thank you
Bioware bring back Shep, i can't get Anderson sacrifice means nothing, real goat.
I think it's a shame they removed it, but it was probably because someone had a more direct artistic reason, or due to time or budgetary constraints.
As for Jason, as you say the dossier is unclear. He could have been Jason's stepfather for several years, or be an uncle-figure. I agree that at the time it was written it was probably intended Jason be Anderson's son but there's no outright conflict here.