I really like this mod, though I do find the chance to die during the approach scenes to be frustrating. Even at 25%, someone seems to die in the engine room almost every time. I have complete loyalty and all ship upgrades. A death in there can really kill a run if it was someone you need later and the player has little control here. I think 25% is still too high, either that or it's somehow higher than that. Does it roll for each party member until it kills one or they all succeed? It's just really frustrating.
Edit: Actually it didn't happen at all the last two times. Guess I was just unlucky. Great mod. I'm doing multiple runs and picking the outcome I hate the least for my ME3 transfer. It definitely adds a lot more engagement to the game. I'm on the edge of my seat every time.
Dang. I complained a lot about the opening, but Zaeed (who's readiness was low) dying during the Thanix Cannon segment probably helped ensure everyone's survival in this last run. It meant he couldn't take a Heroic Save that would have saved someone else less expendable. Medium-readiness Samara was sent to escort the Normandy crew, but she failed. I was hoping at least she would save them at the cost of her own life, but that didn't happen. I took Grunt and Kasumi along for the final boss, knowing they were both Low and didn't stand much of a chance of surviving. But I figured they stood a high probability of taking a Heroic Save that could have saved someone I felt was more important. I sacrificed them intentionally. Miraculously, though, Grunt survived.
This may will be the save I take to ME3. The loss of the crew is the only thing weighing on my heart. I suppose that still makes this mod a success. It made me feel something for a situation that was so binary before. It really adds a lot to the story and I feel like no matter what I'm going into ME3 with a profound sense of loss. 10/10, gave me depression.
Been trying some runs with this mod, trying for that mystical "No One Left Behind" with this mod is quite the unlikely happenstance! Just on the approach alone, even with all the upgrades, there's an above 50% risk that a squad member will die. This is based on your explanation of the mechanics in the "Detailed Mechanics" article. I personally find this rather unsatisfying since there's little you can do to mitigate this risk (most people will have all the upgrades, I assume), and so having to pass three 75% pass chance dice rolls to get to the other side intact is rough.
If I want to make full use of the motivational boosts to get relevant team-members from Medium to Very High readiness, the odds are indeed quite stacked against you. I reckon it's something like 5% chance to get to the "Hold the Line" segment, which features a slew of dice rolls on its own.
In my instance, it'd be something like 0.75^3 (approach) * 0.8^2 (2 Medium readiness specialists) * 0.6^2 (2 Medium readiness specialists) * 0.6 (Medium readiness crew escort) ≈ 0.06. About 6%! Of course, some people will have some larger percentages here, but if you wanna help yourself in the "Hold the Line" segment by having as many "Very High" team members as possible to save the ones with lower readiness, you will go something like this route to maximise your chances there. Like anyone who has ever played D&D will tell you, if you roll enough dice it doesn't matter what your odds on each one is, you will crit fail at least once (no bias at all, no sir).
One thing that does annoy me a bit though, and I would encourage as a change if you ever update this mod, is that there is (what I can tell) NO benefit to actually filling out your entire team. Indeed, since the amount of boosts from collector missions and during the Suicide Mission itself is rather limited, having a team of 8 instead of a team of 12 is significantly more powerful. I think maybe the overall "dice roll" needed for characters to pass a "Success" during this segment should be lowered somewhat for each member above 8 surviving to represent the fact that a larger amount of squad members are holding off (presumably) the same amount of collectors. But that's the rub with the the "Hold the Line" segment, I suppose. Two squadmates are just as capable of holding the line as a full team! It's just something that peeved me a bit as I tried to optimise is all. Why fill out my team except to try and stick with some canon if all I want is as many survivors as possible?
I love the thinking the mod gets me to do in general though. Don't mistake this laser-focused complaint as an issue of the structure of the mod in general! Although that achievement is probably beyond me xD
Just did my first playthrough with this mod, and it was a blast-Samara died from the oculus laser, Thane died during the Biotic Bubble segment (even though Jack's odds of success should've been 100% due to having been at Medium readiness beforehand but whatever), and then most dramatically both Miranda and Jacob died when I took them with me for the human Reaper fight. Thankfully nobody else died and my son Grunt was able pull me to safety. All in all a great ride and I was clenching my cheeks during the ending.
Just one question: I did the Shadow Broker DLC postgame because that's a tradition of mine, and the romance cutscene with Liara still acted like I had casualties during the Suicide Mission despite using the Orb. Is this going to effect my save going into ME3 or is it just a problem with dialog tags or whatever?
"Jack's odds of success should've been 100% due to having been at Medium readiness beforehand" No, that's not how it works: the +2 readiness bonus for being selected as biotic specialist (or other roles during the mission) is applied only afterwards. So Jack at Medium readiness + specialiazation bonus for being a top biotic, her chances of success are 60%.
"the romance cutscene with Liara still acted like I had casualties during the Suicide Mission despite using the Orb. Is this going to effect my save going into ME3 or is it just a problem with dialog tags or whatever?" That's weird, in principle you shouldn't have that issue in ME3... I'm not sure which flags are used for the romance with Liara in LOTSB. Can you describe exactly which convo, and what difference you observed vs. no casualties? I'll try to have a look (some day).
Just want to add that similar things happened to me with two casualties revived (Jacob and Grunt); haven't checked with no casualties since I haven't find the way to achieve that lol. I am also wondering if there'll be repercussion into ME3, and will it be safe to recheck imported flags in the save editor when starting it.
Overall this mod is brilliantly designed. However I do have a slight nitpick with the "specialization bonus".
It's really arbitrary from Bioware why e.g. Grunt can't lead a fireteam (he won over Aralakh Company just fine) or why Thane, a tech expert, fails as specialist. Miranda failing the bubble also never made sense considering the massive overhype of her power.
This mod perpetuates this which is strange, though thankfully it fixed Zaeed's issue.
I tend to agree that it's arbitrary and I did consider removing those specialisation bonuses altogether... but in the end I kept them because it makes some sense to take into account that e.g. Legion is a better tech than Jacob, or Garrus a better squad leader than Kasumi. But the limits are somewhat arbitrary and different people will have different ideas of who should or not be "a good choice" for each task, so for that matter I stayed close to vanilla (with the exception of Zaeed). It also adds another dimension at the moment of making the choice to select one squadmate (not just picking whatever squadmate has the desired Readiness level).
You could also question the Loyalty system... how learning that her dad died a traitor makes Tali critically better at opening doors is a bit of a stretch as well.
In the end, the whole Readiness system is meant to make it so that these things which are hard limits in vanilla still matter with my mod, but matter a lot less individually. So each story can be different, and adapt to any person's head canon... a non-loyal Miranda can be seen as perfectly capable to succeed at the bubble... but however capable, she might still fail because well s#*! happens.
(edit oh nexus censored me, can i say poop happens?)
Really brilliant. Armour and shields held up but Jonkler decided to play it cool and use the javelin launchers on his second attack and Thane went the way of his homeworld. Since I usually pick destroy in 3 I actually dared to risk Tali in the vent over Legion who'd accompanied me on the derelict Reaper thanks to early recruitment. That did not pay off so no Geth peace for me, oh well! Zaeed succeeding as fire team leader when he was the only one I lost in my original play-through back in 2010 was great. He got boosted massively from both segments, everyone held the line but even as I saved Grunt from falling to his death after the destruction of the Reaper Babee... It was not to be! I head-canon he literally cushioned Shepard's fall for you because while Miranda survived - he didn't!
I really enjoy the mod but the first time I used it all the squad mates that died were immediately revived afterwards. I wasn't even given the option to revive them or not.
I'm not sure what you mean.. you're never directly given the option to revive everyone with a YES/NO. You have to interact with the Prothean sphere in the Normandy cabin after the SM, and then if you follow the little story to the end, everyone will be revived.
oh ok... well i played a second time and this time everyone stayed dead when I imported to me3 and this time I lost Garrus, Jack, Legion, Kasumi, Grunt and Thane so it will be a very interesting play though.
Amazing mod. I've played ME2 at least a dozen times, and this was my first time doing it both in the LE and with this mod. I lost four people the first time I played the suicide mission, but after everyone lived in my second playthrough, I looked the mechanics up. I regret doing this because I have a good memory and those mechanics are now burned into my brain, so I can't do anything but a perfect run in vanilla unless I actively go out of my way to make the wrong decisions. The randomness aspect of this mod intrigued me because although I could make more calculated decisions if I knew the mechanics, there was no guarantee I would save everyone.
I read up on the mechanics of this mod beforehand because I wanted to try to save Tali, Legion, Miranda, and Jacob; the former two so I could make peace with the geth and quarians, and the latter two so I could get the most out of the Altered Assassin LE3 mod. But I was determined not to save scum or use the relic no matter who I lost; I've done enough perfect playthroughs of these games and I wanted to live with the consequences. I took the following squadmates on one Collector mission each to raise their readiness rating to medium: Garrus, Tali, Kasumi, Legion, Jacob, and Miranda. Grunt got the other extra point when we went through the Omega 4 Relay (I was using the Early Recruitment mod so Legion didn't get it, hence why I brought it on the collector ship). I did not romance anyone.
Then I went through the Omega 4 relay and Garrus got crushed when the guns failed. 😭 I audibly yelled "No!" (and then broke into a coughing fit because I have COVID and should really be in bed 😆) Not only did this gut me because he's one of my favorite characters and my usual romance, but it also forced me to re-evaluate my whole strategy because I was planning to use him as a team leader. I used Kasumi as the tech expert and Jacob as the fire team leader, and brought Tali and Legion in my squad to keep them safe and give them an extra readiness point to increase their odds of survival later on. Kasumi and Jacob both managed to succeed in their roles. After finding the crew alive (thanks to my Shep not getting laid), I sent Grunt to escort them back to the Normandy (which I've never done before; it gives quite the amusing mental image), had Miranda hold the bubble, brought Mordin and Thane with me as my squad, and had Zaeed lead the next fire team. I knew Miranda had a high chance of failing, but I wanted to ensure her survival later on. I also knew Zaeed wasn't the most optimal choice given his low readiness rating, but without Garrus, I was forced to improvise. Well, Miranda failed at holding the bubble and poor Thane got carried off by seeker swarms. Zaeed made it though! Grunt also succeeded and both he and the crew survived. Then I brought Zaeed (high readiness) and Mordin (medium readiness) in with me to the final boss and left everyone else back to hold the line. I was tempted to bring Miranda because I like her dialogue with TIM if you destroy the collector base, but since she had very high readiness and Samara and Jack were still low, I wanted to give her a chance to protect them. From that point on, I had no casualties.
Beautifully, fantastically done. This mod brought back the nail-biting tension and gut-wrenching sense of loss that I haven't experienced since my first playthrough. I consider myself quite lucky that I made out with only two losses. This will be my first time going into ME3 without Garrus, which should be interesting (and depressing 😢). Thank you so much for your efforts on this! I don't think I'll ever play ME2 without it now.
Thanks a lot for the feedback, it's really nice to hear that the mod mostly achieves what I was trying to go for! And thanks for the donation as well, much appreciated!
Great Mod! Certainly recommended to a few friends. I can't tell you how many times I have completed the trilogy, but this mod gives me something new and exciting as if playing for first time! Thank you so much!
Also wanted to ask about something I considered when using this mod for first time. If the logic behind having a "Romance" lowers the chances in areas due to Shepard not "spending more time training and motivating the Normandy crew". Why would completing Normandy Assignments not increase odds for the squadmate who goes back with the captured crew? Like "Special Ingredients" keeping crew well fed, or even the "Ice Brandy" one which would mean Doctor Chakwas is less distracted and keeping crew in top shape. I just think if these 2 or even all 3 were completed (FBA Couplings also) that the squadmate bringing back crew would get atleast +1 boost to their current Readiness Rank.
I don't know if this was brought up before or not. I'm also new to using mods so I'm not sure if this could even be implemented but its something I thought about when using this mod for first time.
What you propose is not a bad idea at all, but I'd say it doesn't truly fit with some of the basic design ideas I had for this mod: Basically, I tried to move away from the typical "win by completionism" and present mostly "either/or" choices to the player. Of course, Loyalty missions still give readiness bonuses, and therefore are still somewhat "win by completionism", but tot a much lesser extent than in vanilla. And for the rest, Readiness points are essentially given to one squadmate or another. That's why I decided against giving extra Readiness for things like if a squadmate participates in e.g. more than X side missions, etc. The bonus for the crew when not romancing anyone does not make a huge differrence, but it's there to avoid "forcing" the player into a romance (if romance was purely beneficial in terms of readiness).
And then making things like Ice Brandy or Power Couplings possibly making the difference between life or death is very Bioware-y indeed, but if I implemented what you propose, then the only result for a player who knows about it is that they know they "have to" complete these little missions, just like they "have to" buy the ship upgrades... which isn't very complicated and doesn't present any actual choice. And the life-death probabilities would have to be re-balanced to take this into account, resulting in exactly the same situation as it is now, but under the condition that you complete these side-quests (and punishing the player who doesn't).
I understand. Loyalty missions only slightly increase chances unlike vanilla where it more or less guarantees it. While the romance/crew bonus is just to make it where there's a choice, otherwise it would be a "Romance for bonus or you get nothing". I can see now why my ideas, even though as you mentioned does sound promising, gives a "Do it or you lose" mindset which your mod clearly goes for the more "Here's a choice that's fair."
All this makes me appreciate the mod more! Thanks!
I absolutely love the mod and the fact that there's no "I win" strategy. It forces you to pay attention to the mission again. However, I was wonder if there is a chance you could make a version of the mode where the 'Approach' plays out as it normally would, and only affects whatever happens once you've entered the collector base? I always thought the deaths during the approach were a bit anti-climactic.
Thanks! I don't think I'll make such a version. The perfect balance of things is always going to be slightly different from one person to another (e.g. some people ask for "risk", but not too much, like close to 90% success on all tasks, etc). I'm not going to make a bunch of variants, and I think it would not serve the overall experience anyway. I know the approach deaths are purely random (unlike later on in the mission), but that has some advantages as well, since that's the kind of stuff that can happen in real situations, and it can force you to re-evaluate your strategies if you lose a high readiness squadamate, etc. That said, as I wrote in a previous response:
If you want to change some things for yourself, you can start by looking into the setup sequences for Risky with Sequence Editor (in the Bridge pcc file, iirc). I'm not going to walk you through it though. Alternatively, you can save before going through the omega-4 relay, and just re-start if the approach goes too wrong for you. Or you can use the Prothean Orb cheat afterwards, or the save editor if you don't want to revive everyone.
388 comments
Edit: Actually it didn't happen at all the last two times. Guess I was just unlucky. Great mod. I'm doing multiple runs and picking the outcome I hate the least for my ME3 transfer. It definitely adds a lot more engagement to the game. I'm on the edge of my seat every time.
This may will be the save I take to ME3. The loss of the crew is the only thing weighing on my heart. I suppose that still makes this mod a success. It made me feel something for a situation that was so binary before. It really adds a lot to the story and I feel like no matter what I'm going into ME3 with a profound sense of loss. 10/10, gave me depression.
If I want to make full use of the motivational boosts to get relevant team-members from Medium to Very High readiness, the odds are indeed quite stacked against you. I reckon it's something like 5% chance to get to the "Hold the Line" segment, which features a slew of dice rolls on its own.
In my instance, it'd be something like 0.75^3 (approach) * 0.8^2 (2 Medium readiness specialists) * 0.6^2 (2 Medium readiness specialists) * 0.6 (Medium readiness crew escort) ≈ 0.06. About 6%! Of course, some people will have some larger percentages here, but if you wanna help yourself in the "Hold the Line" segment by having as many "Very High" team members as possible to save the ones with lower readiness, you will go something like this route to maximise your chances there. Like anyone who has ever played D&D will tell you, if you roll enough dice it doesn't matter what your odds on each one is, you will crit fail at least once (no bias at all, no sir).
One thing that does annoy me a bit though, and I would encourage as a change if you ever update this mod, is that there is (what I can tell) NO benefit to actually filling out your entire team. Indeed, since the amount of boosts from collector missions and during the Suicide Mission itself is rather limited, having a team of 8 instead of a team of 12 is significantly more powerful. I think maybe the overall "dice roll" needed for characters to pass a "Success" during this segment should be lowered somewhat for each member above 8 surviving to represent the fact that a larger amount of squad members are holding off (presumably) the same amount of collectors. But that's the rub with the the "Hold the Line" segment, I suppose. Two squadmates are just as capable of holding the line as a full team! It's just something that peeved me a bit as I tried to optimise is all. Why fill out my team except to try and stick with some canon if all I want is as many survivors as possible?
I love the thinking the mod gets me to do in general though. Don't mistake this laser-focused complaint as an issue of the structure of the mod in general! Although that achievement is probably beyond me xD
Just one question: I did the Shadow Broker DLC postgame because that's a tradition of mine, and the romance cutscene with Liara still acted like I had casualties during the Suicide Mission despite using the Orb. Is this going to effect my save going into ME3 or is it just a problem with dialog tags or whatever?
"Jack's odds of success should've been 100% due to having been at Medium readiness beforehand"
No, that's not how it works: the +2 readiness bonus for being selected as biotic specialist (or other roles during the mission) is applied only afterwards. So Jack at Medium readiness + specialiazation bonus for being a top biotic, her chances of success are 60%.
"the romance cutscene with Liara still acted like I had casualties during the Suicide Mission despite using the Orb. Is this going to effect my save going into ME3 or is it just a problem with dialog tags or whatever?"
That's weird, in principle you shouldn't have that issue in ME3... I'm not sure which flags are used for the romance with Liara in LOTSB. Can you describe exactly which convo, and what difference you observed vs. no casualties? I'll try to have a look (some day).
It's really arbitrary from Bioware why e.g. Grunt can't lead a fireteam (he won over Aralakh Company just fine) or why Thane, a tech expert, fails as specialist. Miranda failing the bubble also never made sense considering the massive overhype of her power.
This mod perpetuates this which is strange, though thankfully it fixed Zaeed's issue.
I tend to agree that it's arbitrary and I did consider removing those specialisation bonuses altogether... but in the end I kept them because it makes some sense to take into account that e.g. Legion is a better tech than Jacob, or Garrus a better squad leader than Kasumi. But the limits are somewhat arbitrary and different people will have different ideas of who should or not be "a good choice" for each task, so for that matter I stayed close to vanilla (with the exception of Zaeed). It also adds another dimension at the moment of making the choice to select one squadmate (not just picking whatever squadmate has the desired Readiness level).
You could also question the Loyalty system... how learning that her dad died a traitor makes Tali critically better at opening doors is a bit of a stretch as well.
In the end, the whole Readiness system is meant to make it so that these things which are hard limits in vanilla still matter with my mod, but matter a lot less individually. So each story can be different, and adapt to any person's head canon... a non-loyal Miranda can be seen as perfectly capable to succeed at the bubble... but however capable, she might still fail because well s#*! happens.
(edit oh nexus censored me, can i say poop happens?)
I read up on the mechanics of this mod beforehand because I wanted to try to save Tali, Legion, Miranda, and Jacob; the former two so I could make peace with the geth and quarians, and the latter two so I could get the most out of the Altered Assassin LE3 mod. But I was determined not to save scum or use the relic no matter who I lost; I've done enough perfect playthroughs of these games and I wanted to live with the consequences. I took the following squadmates on one Collector mission each to raise their readiness rating to medium: Garrus, Tali, Kasumi, Legion, Jacob, and Miranda. Grunt got the other extra point when we went through the Omega 4 Relay (I was using the Early Recruitment mod so Legion didn't get it, hence why I brought it on the collector ship). I did not romance anyone.
Then I went through the Omega 4 relay and Garrus got crushed when the guns failed. 😭 I audibly yelled "No!" (and then broke into a coughing fit because I have COVID and should really be in bed 😆) Not only did this gut me because he's one of my favorite characters and my usual romance, but it also forced me to re-evaluate my whole strategy because I was planning to use him as a team leader. I used Kasumi as the tech expert and Jacob as the fire team leader, and brought Tali and Legion in my squad to keep them safe and give them an extra readiness point to increase their odds of survival later on. Kasumi and Jacob both managed to succeed in their roles. After finding the crew alive (thanks to my Shep not getting laid), I sent Grunt to escort them back to the Normandy (which I've never done before; it gives quite the amusing mental image), had Miranda hold the bubble, brought Mordin and Thane with me as my squad, and had Zaeed lead the next fire team. I knew Miranda had a high chance of failing, but I wanted to ensure her survival later on. I also knew Zaeed wasn't the most optimal choice given his low readiness rating, but without Garrus, I was forced to improvise. Well, Miranda failed at holding the bubble and poor Thane got carried off by seeker swarms. Zaeed made it though! Grunt also succeeded and both he and the crew survived. Then I brought Zaeed (high readiness) and Mordin (medium readiness) in with me to the final boss and left everyone else back to hold the line. I was tempted to bring Miranda because I like her dialogue with TIM if you destroy the collector base, but since she had very high readiness and Samara and Jack were still low, I wanted to give her a chance to protect them. From that point on, I had no casualties.
Beautifully, fantastically done. This mod brought back the nail-biting tension and gut-wrenching sense of loss that I haven't experienced since my first playthrough. I consider myself quite lucky that I made out with only two losses. This will be my first time going into ME3 without Garrus, which should be interesting (and depressing 😢). Thank you so much for your efforts on this! I don't think I'll ever play ME2 without it now.
And thanks for the donation as well, much appreciated!
https://imgur.com/a/5uFfUPZ
:) TRULY AMAZING MOD (its not sarcasm, I can't get the achievement and I find it truly fair)
Thank you a lot
Also wanted to ask about something I considered when using this mod for first time. If the logic behind having a "Romance" lowers the chances in areas due to Shepard not "spending more time training and motivating the Normandy crew". Why would completing Normandy Assignments not increase odds for the squadmate who goes back with the captured crew?
Like "Special Ingredients" keeping crew well fed, or even the "Ice Brandy" one which would mean Doctor Chakwas is less distracted and keeping crew in top shape. I just think if these 2 or even all 3 were completed (FBA Couplings also) that the squadmate bringing back crew would get atleast +1 boost to their current Readiness Rank.
I don't know if this was brought up before or not. I'm also new to using mods so I'm not sure if this could even be implemented but its something I thought about when using this mod for first time.
What you propose is not a bad idea at all, but I'd say it doesn't truly fit with some of the basic design ideas I had for this mod: Basically, I tried to move away from the typical "win by completionism" and present mostly "either/or" choices to the player. Of course, Loyalty missions still give readiness bonuses, and therefore are still somewhat "win by completionism", but tot a much lesser extent than in vanilla. And for the rest, Readiness points are essentially given to one squadmate or another. That's why I decided against giving extra Readiness for things like if a squadmate participates in e.g. more than X side missions, etc. The bonus for the crew when not romancing anyone does not make a huge differrence, but it's there to avoid "forcing" the player into a romance (if romance was purely beneficial in terms of readiness).
And then making things like Ice Brandy or Power Couplings possibly making the difference between life or death is very Bioware-y indeed, but if I implemented what you propose, then the only result for a player who knows about it is that they know they "have to" complete these little missions, just like they "have to" buy the ship upgrades... which isn't very complicated and doesn't present any actual choice. And the life-death probabilities would have to be re-balanced to take this into account, resulting in exactly the same situation as it is now, but under the condition that you complete these side-quests (and punishing the player who doesn't).
All this makes me appreciate the mod more! Thanks!
If you want to change some things for yourself, you can start by looking into the setup sequences for Risky with Sequence Editor (in the Bridge pcc file, iirc). I'm not going to walk you through it though. Alternatively, you can save before going through the omega-4 relay, and just re-start if the approach goes too wrong for you. Or you can use the Prothean Orb cheat afterwards, or the save editor if you don't want to revive everyone.