To those still feeling archers are underpowered, I believe the issue comes down to how combat currently works. It seems that the Effectiveness level of a unit determines things like arrow-block chance and thus damage mitigation, so it's not until a certain threshold is hit that archers start doing damage, at which point they absolutely shred the unit almost instantly. I'm trying to figure out if I can modify how Effectiveness is handled, or how warbows affect effectiveness beyond the damage stat.
Ideally, I'd like to make archers and arrows work like they did historically and balance them as a way to lower enemy Effectiveness prior to coming into melee engagement, making it easier for your melee units to rout them - but only deal effective direct damage to unarmored/low armored units. I think the vanilla state of balance is based on a system similar to this, based on some of the old unused data tables still included in the game files. However, I haven't figured out how attacks, damage, and Effectiveness (which is apparently distinct from Morale) are interlinked in the files.
Just wanted to concur with the "threshold" opinion - from the combat that I've done there certainly appears to be a threshold before which there is no damage, after which there is lots of damage and this does appear to change depending on armour level/type of the opponent unit.
One wonders if archers break shields or armour after X damage and that is what we are seeing... (upgraded retinue troops have 82 armour versus fully upgraded militia spear of 12 armour... and archers just bounce off upgraded retinue. Brigands and un-upgraded troops can be shredded by archers in this mod, but bear in mind there are different types of brigand)
I also use the "faster volley" mod, however, there is an aspect of fatigue in firing the bows, so you can very easily render your archers useless as they become fatigued in a short period of rapid firing.
Strat Gaming has a new video on battle/combat although it doesn't cover archers much as he doesn't use them, considering them broken.
Clearly, there is already more to combat than just weapon stats so it's going to take a while to resolve these issues, in the meantime I find your mod a step in the right direction and a must-have for now.
The mod works and affects both your troops, AND the barons troops. However, it breaks spearman customisation making their bodies invisible and just makes the game look trash. It also affects mail retinue so who knows what else it breaks. The fact that you can only download range increase and damage increase really puts me off downloading because its downright cheating. I would appreciate if these issues could be fixed and/or a package which only increases damage by 50% could be created as we are playing with archers, not snipers.
4 years in game attacks every year i'm not sure i've made more than 2 or 3 kills (total) with my archers :/ i'm using JetTiger_better_archers_1.75x_range_1.5x_damage_1x_meleeDmg
Watch the enemy's effectiveness drop under arrow fire, and then when they hit melee, if you really want to do them in, swing the archers around and let them free-fire into their backs and watch enemies melt.
Yeah, I agree, poorly armored bandits should fall pretty easily to massed arrow volleys. The problem is how much obfuscation is in the game files relating to how damage is dealt, mitigated, and affected by Effectiveness. If I bump straight archer damage so they drop bandits quickly, they'll also shred armored enemies almost as easily.
Plus, there are lots of table values that don't seem to actually have an effect in game (at least presently) - for example, there's a table value that says "Number of men in a unit of militia archers", but when changed, doesn't have any effect on the unit in-game.
I'm still looking into it, experimenting around to find what values affect what in-game, but it may take a while.
yes I see there must be things planned but not yet implemented, or activated, and which will be in the future
It reminds me of CiV 4 or 5 perhaps, where we could have units fight with arcs against tanks which still took damage -.- whereas it is enough to integrate a notion of armor/penetration points which avoids/allows damage between weapons and armor/unarmored.
basically, arrows vs unarmored = variable damage (experience, precision, formation, weather, etc..) arrows vs armored = zero or almost no damage (full plated, with or w/o partial chainmail, etc...)
I am sure it will come one day, when the dev looks at overhauling the military aspect and the skirmishes, I think he will want to keep an authentic touch on this aspect too.
At this moment, both mods that modify archer unit values are conflicting with the beta branch, making basic retinue armor textureless and disabling the new armor additions, like the bascinet and the decorated breastplate. Take note tho, these are not the only mods that have this issue. Probably something changed in the code.
I do have it in the mod description that this mod is not compatible with the current beta branch. The beta branch increased archer damage 3x, so I've been playing around unmodded to see if it's even worth updating this mod once those beta changes go live. The only minor quibble I have at the moment with archer state in the beta is that their range still seems slightly low - however it may be that if/when professional soldiers are added to the game that professional archers will have better stats.
Thats fine, i'd still take a look into what could be done to make it compatible again. I feel like even with the 3x damage they still feel terrible. Raiders take 6 volleys at 100% efficiency to start dying. Militia and retinue just dont seem to take damage. It might be my issue, but they really dont die by archers unless theyre engaged with another melee unit. Then the damage stacks.
39 comments
Ideally, I'd like to make archers and arrows work like they did historically and balance them as a way to lower enemy Effectiveness prior to coming into melee engagement, making it easier for your melee units to rout them - but only deal effective direct damage to unarmored/low armored units. I think the vanilla state of balance is based on a system similar to this, based on some of the old unused data tables still included in the game files. However, I haven't figured out how attacks, damage, and Effectiveness (which is apparently distinct from Morale) are interlinked in the files.
One wonders if archers break shields or armour after X damage and that is what we are seeing... (upgraded retinue troops have 82 armour versus fully upgraded militia spear of 12 armour... and archers just bounce off upgraded retinue. Brigands and un-upgraded troops can be shredded by archers in this mod, but bear in mind there are different types of brigand)
I also use the "faster volley" mod, however, there is an aspect of fatigue in firing the bows, so you can very easily render your archers useless as they become fatigued in a short period of rapid firing.
Strat Gaming has a new video on battle/combat although it doesn't cover archers much as he doesn't use them, considering them broken.
Clearly, there is already more to combat than just weapon stats so it's going to take a while to resolve these issues, in the meantime I find your mod a step in the right direction and a must-have for now.
TY for making it.
attacks every year
i'm not sure i've made more than 2 or 3 kills (total) with my archers :/
i'm using JetTiger_better_archers_1.75x_range_1.5x_damage_1x_meleeDmg
the bandits are not full plated or with sields.
I've been playing Total War forever, I know that balancing archers is always tricky.
Plus, there are lots of table values that don't seem to actually have an effect in game (at least presently) - for example, there's a table value that says "Number of men in a unit of militia archers", but when changed, doesn't have any effect on the unit in-game.
I'm still looking into it, experimenting around to find what values affect what in-game, but it may take a while.
there must be things planned but not yet implemented, or activated, and which will be in the future
It reminds me of CiV 4 or 5 perhaps, where we could have units fight with arcs against tanks which still took damage -.-
whereas it is enough to integrate a notion of armor/penetration points which avoids/allows damage between weapons and armor/unarmored.
basically, arrows vs unarmored = variable damage (experience, precision, formation, weather, etc..)
arrows vs armored = zero or almost no damage (full plated, with or w/o partial chainmail, etc...)
I am sure it will come one day, when the dev looks at overhauling the military aspect and the skirmishes, I think he will want to keep an authentic touch on this aspect too.
good luck finding a tip until then ;)
Take note tho, these are not the only mods that have this issue. Probably something changed in the code.