Well, I also like the concept as a whole, but in particular ...
If the battle for * realism * has already begun, then we must comply.
1 ammunition power
.308 [~64] base damage (Examples: 7.62x51mm) .45-70 [~88] base damage (Examples: .45-70 Government) .50[~96] base damage (Examples: .50 BGM)
It is not even funny. In real life 5,56-451700—1830 7,62-51 3275 12,7-99 15530—20257 .45-70 2304
That is .45-70 somewhere between 226 and 308, and 50 is the ultimate thing that blows almost everything (here you need a strength requirement, as in the previous parts)
2 All these multiple receivers of the same caliber, why are they? Again, in real life, this part of the weapon affects the reliability, rate of fire, the minimum degree of power, and absolutely nothing on armor-piercing - this is a property of a bullet.
3 Weapons made from pipes -10% of power is obviously not enough - guns from s#*! and sticks, by definition, will have a disgusting obturation, accuracy and so on, so that -30% is the same. Yes, and 50 caliber for them should be removed.
For me, it is not a battle for realism but a battle for unification and systematics. Where it is rather impossible to obtain a final result that satisfies everyone on every level.
1. Ammunition Power I know that in the real world the difference in strength between particular calibers is huge, but it is impossible to imitate it in a rational way into damage in the game, without completely converting the game damage engine, also with the armor system. This is a bit too much for me at this moment...
I know that the caliber .45-70 of ammo is not really a strong caliber (in relation to others rifle ammo), but in its time it was quite useful. This caliber in the game is created for the needs of only one weapon, quite a unique weapon, and ammunition is rare.
Lever-Action Rifle, I wanted it to be the third alternative to sniper weapons, with its basic caliber as the strongest one, I just a little bit like this weapon. If it ever appears, more weapons using this caliber, then I will calmly think about reducing his ammo damage to more appropriate. I'm sorry if it's something that bothers you.
Unfortunately, we can not model ourselves on specific values and real differences in the strength of ammunition, thus translating this into in-game damage. Because giving the caliber .38 for example 10 points of basic damage, .50 BGM we would have to give something about 500 points of damage. And then mini nuke should get something around 1 million damage. The only thing we can do is see which ammo is stronger than others, and balance it to the eye, and try not to destroy game balance. This is my opinion on this subject.
2. Receivers Game is not a real life, and as of today and near future there is no chance to be. Because in the vanilla game engine, receivers have the function of giving ammunition specific properties. I did not create these properties, I only copied them on other types of ammo caliber. My mod adds extra options and balances the damage (i hope), instead of remodeling all the game mechanics.
3. Pipe Weapons
10% is quite a lot despite appearances, when we add to it Perks and Legendary modifications, the difference starts to be really large.
A simple example: .50 BGM Normal weapon: [96] base damage advance receiver: 168 damage perk increasing damage (5 stars, 100%): 336 Pipe weapon: [86] base damage advance receiver: 150 damage perk increasing damage (5 stars, 100%): 300
On the realities of the game this difference is really big, with a bigger one, the pipe weapon would become completely useless. Like in vanilla game.
In fact, for a weapons left for 200 years without really special protection, time would not have been as kind as in the game (I will not even mention ammunition). These weapons would be the same scrap or worse than the pipe weapons. Therefore, we can put realism between fairy tales.
I suggest also to look at youtube for movies how people build a homemade weapons, including .50 BGM caliber sniper rifle, you may be surprised.
Perhaps in a while I will add the mod version with lowered .45-70 damage, to satisfy those who are bothered by this inaccuracy.
*This is my opinion on this subject.* - Well, here you can not argue - your mod, and you decide. For me, in this form, it does not order anything, but instead adds chaos. Well, why should I in the menu of the weapons workbench for a couple of dozen options overlapping in properties? The damage of the weapon I twisted so long ago in accordance with my ideas about what is needed in the game. So, despite the available sound ideas, I pass by.
I love your concept. I play test for Survival Immersion currently using Better Locational Damage, Better Explosives Redux, Agony, and PA-NPC improved AI as the baseline for realism. I am analyzing your statistics and preparing comparisons. If you're interested in the Realism-Immersion model, you can get an idea of what has worked, what is working, and what needs to be improved. Thousands of hours have gone into the curation so far. Here's the links: youtube.com/c/HankMcGurk Season 5 Playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfwWy4rrOgMXurWmlPaOxCt3UcN-nGK7l Episode 8 of Season 5: https://youtu.be/ZKVcj7CENeA Any and all of the Footage will be made Creative Commons at request. Provided Playtest is for the Tactical side of Fallout 4 Survival-Immersion modding. Feel free to clip, cut and reuse whatever you need. I've enjoyed working with BiRaitBec, and GreslinMods. Your reasoned approach to ballistic "unification and systematics" is appreciated. It is a game, the best design will be the one that simulates realism, but remains balanced and playable. I despise all the bizarre and rare calibers weapon mod designers insist on, when an approximate round would suffice. Xxyzz's approach to HOW each round functions has been more useful to overall Immersion design than just the base damage. Examine the Changelog of Better Locational Damage, and you'll see the brilliance of his detail. Finding a way to marry your balanced unified system to the specific round vs. creature effects of Better Locational Damage will result in a Significant improvement in the Tactical Aspect of Fallout 4 Survival-Immersion. For the moment, I've been patching the weapon damages on my own, the best I can. Nowhere near a complete set, but I've found some things that work, and many things that don't. Let me know what you think, what you need, what you'd like to have tested. I believe you'll find some benefit in my work for your design. Many Thanks, - Hank
I think your concept and your damage numbers are more or less ok (although I use a mod with mostly higher damage, and less health settings than vanilla).
FO4 calibers are strange. In my opinion the .50 for example is not a .50 BMG, as many suggest, with about 18000 Joules energy, but one of the many .50 caliber hunting rounds, so you can explain why it is so relatively weak in game.
The only caliber/gun where I really disagree with you is the assault rifle. I would not make it weaker than in vanilla. It has a 5.56 round which maybe resembles the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO class (about 1800 Joules), at least it seems to be a rifle round. It should not be weaker than the .44 handgun round, "balance" or not (in reality it is much more effective than a 44. Magnum).
geala when I was collecting materials about ammunition, I used the foot pound-force indicator for comparisons. It is difficult to compare two different types of ammunition for various applications, .44 ammunition for guns mainly, and 5.56 for rifles. In close distances, face to face, stronger in dealing damage is theoretically .44, but I must admit on larger distances this caliber loses to 5.56. As examples, I used in the description .44 Magnum and 5.56x45 NATO, but it can also be quite different calibers. For example .44 Special or 5.56x30 or 5.56x21, which are definitely much weaker than the previous ones. In my version, Assault Rifle deals higher damage (44 vs the original 30 damage), but according to the mechanics receives a -35% penalty for the damage for being an automatic weapon. Therefore, it may seem much weaker. In the next version of my mod I will probably get rid of (unreasonable) penalty for automatic weapons or at least very significantly reduce it to 5 or 10 percent in the red.
I like this as a concept. However, how would it affect weapons added by mods that use the same calibers as vanilla game? For example, I really like the M-4 service rifle replacer for the combat and assault rifles. Both replacers use the standard ammo (.45 and 5.56MM). So will this mod cause any problems with these replacers? Thanks.
1 Possibility: If this is a completely new weapon, added as a separate weapon, like the M-4, nothing will happen, my mod doesn't change any vanilla ammo, is only set of rules for ammo. Changes and adds only receivers to weapons. If you want to use my concept, just change the base damage in the weapon record and correct any possible values in the mods records (In this case receivers).
2 Possibility: Unfortunately, if you use mods that change the appearance of vanilla weapons, added new models, but NOT replace it, you will need a compatibility patch, or directly change my mod. Because it would require a models change for new one in the receivers, and elements which adds or changes my mod, and their positions. Not much work, but somebody have to do it.
3 Possibility: If the gun mod is replacing the vanilla weapon models only (without changing the records), no patch is needed, you have to make sure only that my mod will be loaded after the rest. In this case, each such weapon will have my receivers.
4 Possibility: If the mod replaces and adds some elements, then you need the compatibility patch for the added elements, or directly change my mod.
If you do not want the weapon to have any of the receivers added by my mod, you would have to delete them.
Thanks for the added info. The Service Rifle replacer pack completely replaces the combat rifle and the assault rifle, adding their own receivers, barrels attachments, etc. with M-16/M-4 variants. The only thing they retain with vanilla is the calibers, .45 and 5.56.
9 comments
If the battle for * realism * has already begun, then we must comply.
1 ammunition power
.308 [~64] base damage (Examples: 7.62x51mm)
.45-70 [~88] base damage (Examples: .45-70 Government)
.50[~96] base damage (Examples: .50 BGM)
It is not even funny. In real life
5,56-451700—1830
7,62-51 3275
12,7-99 15530—20257
.45-70 2304
That is .45-70 somewhere between 226 and 308, and 50 is the ultimate thing that blows almost everything (here you need a strength requirement, as in the previous parts)
2 All these multiple receivers of the same caliber, why are they? Again, in real life, this part of the weapon affects the reliability, rate of fire, the minimum degree of power, and absolutely nothing on armor-piercing - this is a property of a bullet.
3 Weapons made from pipes -10% of power is obviously not enough - guns from s#*! and sticks, by definition, will have a disgusting obturation, accuracy and so on, so that -30% is the same. Yes, and 50 caliber for them should be removed.
1. Ammunition Power
I know that in the real world the difference in strength between particular calibers is huge, but it is impossible to imitate it in a rational way into damage in the game, without completely converting the game damage engine, also with the armor system.
This is a bit too much for me at this moment...
I know that the caliber .45-70 of ammo is not really a strong caliber (in relation to others rifle ammo), but in its time it was quite useful.
This caliber in the game is created for the needs of only one weapon, quite a unique weapon, and ammunition is rare.
Lever-Action Rifle, I wanted it to be the third alternative to sniper weapons, with its basic caliber as the strongest one, I just a little bit like this weapon. If it ever appears, more weapons using this caliber, then I will calmly think about reducing his ammo damage to more appropriate.
I'm sorry if it's something that bothers you.
Unfortunately, we can not model ourselves on specific values and real differences in the strength of ammunition, thus translating this into in-game damage.
Because giving the caliber .38 for example 10 points of basic damage, .50 BGM we would have to give something about 500 points of damage. And then mini nuke should get something around 1 million damage.
The only thing we can do is see which ammo is stronger than others, and balance it to the eye, and try not to destroy game balance. This is my opinion on this subject.
2. Receivers
Game is not a real life, and as of today and near future there is no chance to be.
Because in the vanilla game engine, receivers have the function of giving ammunition specific properties. I did not create these properties, I only copied them on other types of ammo caliber.
My mod adds extra options and balances the damage (i hope), instead of remodeling all the game mechanics.
3. Pipe Weapons
10% is quite a lot despite appearances, when we add to it Perks and Legendary modifications, the difference starts to be really large.
A simple example: .50 BGM
Normal weapon: [96] base damage
advance receiver: 168 damage
perk increasing damage (5 stars, 100%): 336
Pipe weapon: [86] base damage
advance receiver: 150 damage
perk increasing damage (5 stars, 100%): 300
On the realities of the game this difference is really big, with a bigger one, the pipe weapon would become completely useless. Like in vanilla game.
In fact, for a weapons left for 200 years without really special protection, time would not have been as kind as in the game (I will not even mention ammunition). These weapons would be the same scrap or worse than the pipe weapons. Therefore, we can put realism between fairy tales.
I suggest also to look at youtube for movies how people build a homemade weapons, including .50 BGM caliber sniper rifle, you may be surprised.
Perhaps in a while I will add the mod version with lowered .45-70 damage, to satisfy those who are bothered by this inaccuracy.
Well, here you can not argue - your mod, and you decide. For me, in this form, it does not order anything, but instead adds chaos. Well, why should I in the menu of the weapons workbench for a couple of dozen options overlapping in properties? The damage of the weapon I twisted so long ago in accordance with my ideas about what is needed in the game. So, despite the available sound ideas, I pass by.
Here's the links: youtube.com/c/HankMcGurk
Season 5 Playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfwWy4rrOgMXurWmlPaOxCt3UcN-nGK7l
Episode 8 of Season 5: https://youtu.be/ZKVcj7CENeA
Any and all of the Footage will be made Creative Commons at request. Provided Playtest is for the Tactical side of Fallout 4 Survival-Immersion modding. Feel free to clip, cut and reuse whatever you need. I've enjoyed working with BiRaitBec, and GreslinMods. Your reasoned approach to ballistic "unification and systematics" is appreciated. It is a game, the best design will be the one that simulates realism, but remains balanced and playable. I despise all the bizarre and rare calibers weapon mod designers insist on, when an approximate round would suffice.
Xxyzz's approach to HOW each round functions has been more useful to overall Immersion design than just the base damage. Examine the Changelog of Better Locational Damage, and you'll see the brilliance of his detail. Finding a way to marry your balanced unified system to the specific round vs. creature effects of Better Locational Damage will result in a Significant improvement in the Tactical Aspect of Fallout 4 Survival-Immersion. For the moment, I've been patching the weapon damages on my own, the best I can. Nowhere near a complete set, but I've found some things that work, and many things that don't.
Let me know what you think, what you need, what you'd like to have tested. I believe you'll find some benefit in my work for your design.
Many Thanks,
- Hank
FO4 calibers are strange. In my opinion the .50 for example is not a .50 BMG, as many suggest, with about 18000 Joules energy, but one of the many .50 caliber hunting rounds, so you can explain why it is so relatively weak in game.
The only caliber/gun where I really disagree with you is the assault rifle. I would not make it weaker than in vanilla. It has a 5.56 round which maybe resembles the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO class (about 1800 Joules), at least it seems to be a rifle round. It should not be weaker than the .44 handgun round, "balance" or not (in reality it is much more effective than a 44. Magnum).
As examples, I used in the description .44 Magnum and 5.56x45 NATO, but it can also be quite different calibers. For example .44 Special or 5.56x30 or 5.56x21, which are definitely much weaker than the previous ones.
In my version, Assault Rifle deals higher damage (44 vs the original 30 damage), but according to the mechanics receives a -35% penalty for the damage for being an automatic weapon. Therefore, it may seem much weaker.
In the next version of my mod I will probably get rid of (unreasonable) penalty for automatic weapons or at least very significantly reduce it to 5 or 10 percent in the red.
If this is a completely new weapon, added as a separate weapon, like the M-4, nothing will happen, my mod doesn't change any vanilla ammo, is only set of rules for ammo. Changes and adds only receivers to weapons.
If you want to use my concept, just change the base damage in the weapon record and correct any possible values in the mods records (In this case receivers).
2 Possibility:
Unfortunately, if you use mods that change the appearance of vanilla weapons, added new models, but NOT replace it, you will need a compatibility patch, or directly change my mod.
Because it would require a models change for new one in the receivers, and elements which adds or changes my mod, and their positions. Not much work, but somebody have to do it.
3 Possibility:
If the gun mod is replacing the vanilla weapon models only (without changing the records), no patch is needed, you have to make sure only that my mod will be loaded after the rest.
In this case, each such weapon will have my receivers.
4 Possibility:
If the mod replaces and adds some elements, then you need the compatibility patch for the added elements, or directly change my mod.
If you do not want the weapon to have any of the receivers added by my mod, you would have to delete them.