"Severely unbalanced for a perk that only requires 1 Agility to take." IMO you are 100% correct that the range thing is a bit odd (arbitrary), but I wouldn't strictly call it unbalanced.
(1) Rifleman-only options have vastly higher damage, and the difference gets bigger late game. Early game: shotgun vs 10mm --> 45 vs 18 base damage. Late game: The Last Minute vs. Kellog's Pistol -->192 vs 48 base damage. When a rifleman can do quadruple as much damage per shot, I can see why the designers decided to throw an arbitrary bonus at pistols.
(2) Similarly, at level 1, automatic weapons are indeed weaker per shot in their base variants - and yes, that is a bit odd (arbitrary) - but this changes later in the game. As soon as you get your hands on Spray and Pray, or some other strong legendary (e.g. a wounding combat shotgun), the balance tilts back towards Commando.
Finally: the game designers must have been 100% aware that the rule sets for weapons are odd and arbitrary - but they did it intentionally, to encourage build variety.
That is: if the game was fully realistic (no magic perks like Blitz, no arbitrary bonuses to pistols, etc), then the only good F4 loadout would be the same longarms that real life infantry use, and the game would essentially be another WW2 shooter.
Hi! I doubt you're still checking this mod page, but on the off chance you do, could it be made so that the perk descriptions reflect the increased range? Otherwise good stuff, good job catching this oversight by Bethesda :)
Good day. Will the heavy gunner rebalance affect other mods that changes the heavy gunner perk? I have https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/36219 which along with vanilla heavy gunner perks, adds a separate buff to miniguns
They look to be incompatible. At least, when I loaded the both, it didn't multiply the damage for miniguns the way the mod you linked describes as happening.
Confirming that as well. Will probably merge them in the future. For now, will use your file that excludes the heavy gunner perk, because it is "immersive" and "logical". Thank you for this one
"Take a rifle. Slap a pistol grip on it. If you've got Gunslinger 2 or 3, your new "pistol" will shoot farther than the rifle ever did"
Technically this is only true of the pipe firearms in the base game. All other firearms that can have a rifle stock always have the rifle keyword "WeaponTypeRifle" associated with it, and never the pistol keyword "WeaponTypePistol". E.G. a hunting rifle with just a pistol grip does not get affected by the Gunslinger perks, but is affected by the Rifleman perks. This also means that the .50 cal pipe pistol with a long barrel is the best sniping weapon in the base game, provided you have taken the Gunslinger perks.
I always figured that Bethesda just messed up the keywords on the rifle weapons, and have considered making a mod so that a pistol grip meant that the Gunslinger perk would apply. However, I generally don't use pistols myself, and this would be a lot of work for something I wouldn't use.
In case someone is interested in doing this, you would have to check the keyword on all grip mods and add/modify the keyword if needed, and then check to see if the "WeaponTypeRifle" keyword is applied to the base weapon and removing it from the weapon definition if it is. Yes, some of the base weapon definitions have "WeaponTypeRifle" applied to them. And yes, Bethesda really bunged up weapon/perk/logic implementation in the game.
It is good to see someone addressing the ridiculous ability for some pistols to shoot further than any rifles in the game though.
Thanks for addressing something that has always bothered me. I've seen other mods do something similar, but iirc, they all changed other things, as well, and/or didn't address the Commando perk. Great work, friend!
If I may make a suggestion in the mod description, though, maybe lead off with, "rifles now shoot farther than pistols." Just to get the basic idea across at a glance.
You're welcome. It's also been bothering the heck out of me - I wanted to do a Commando/SAS build with automatic weapons - and that mixed-up ranges thing would have spoiled it a bit. Much too tempting to use a pistol and gunslinger for the range.
Good idea with the mod description, I'll make it clearer now.
19 comments
(1) Rifleman-only options have vastly higher damage, and the difference gets bigger late game. Early game: shotgun vs 10mm --> 45 vs 18 base damage. Late game: The Last Minute vs. Kellog's Pistol -->192 vs 48 base damage. When a rifleman can do quadruple as much damage per shot, I can see why the designers decided to throw an arbitrary bonus at pistols.
(2) Similarly, at level 1, automatic weapons are indeed weaker per shot in their base variants - and yes, that is a bit odd (arbitrary) - but this changes later in the game. As soon as you get your hands on Spray and Pray, or some other strong legendary (e.g. a wounding combat shotgun), the balance tilts back towards Commando.
Finally: the game designers must have been 100% aware that the rule sets for weapons are odd and arbitrary - but they did it intentionally, to encourage build variety.
That is: if the game was fully realistic (no magic perks like Blitz, no arbitrary bonuses to pistols, etc), then the only good F4 loadout would be the same longarms that real life infantry use, and the game would essentially be another WW2 shooter.
That said, it only affects three perks. There are no world-edits or archives. It should work as-is for NextGen.
Thanks again!
Automatic Rifles - Commando perk has the same range as ordinary rifles with the Rifleman perk.
Technically this is only true of the pipe firearms in the base game. All other firearms that can have a rifle stock always have the rifle keyword "WeaponTypeRifle" associated with it, and never the pistol keyword "WeaponTypePistol". E.G. a hunting rifle with just a pistol grip does not get affected by the Gunslinger perks, but is affected by the Rifleman perks. This also means that the .50 cal pipe pistol with a long barrel is the best sniping weapon in the base game, provided you have taken the Gunslinger perks.
I always figured that Bethesda just messed up the keywords on the rifle weapons, and have considered making a mod so that a pistol grip meant that the Gunslinger perk would apply. However, I generally don't use pistols myself, and this would be a lot of work for something I wouldn't use.
In case someone is interested in doing this, you would have to check the keyword on all grip mods and add/modify the keyword if needed, and then check to see if the "WeaponTypeRifle" keyword is applied to the base weapon and removing it from the weapon definition if it is. Yes, some of the base weapon definitions have "WeaponTypeRifle" applied to them. And yes, Bethesda really bunged up weapon/perk/logic implementation in the game.
It is good to see someone addressing the ridiculous ability for some pistols to shoot further than any rifles in the game though.
You've given me an idea how to reduce automatic pistols to the same pistol-range that Gunslinger uses. I will test.
If I may make a suggestion in the mod description, though, maybe lead off with, "rifles now shoot farther than pistols." Just to get the basic idea across at a glance.
Good idea with the mod description, I'll make it clearer now.