I think it would be nice for some stuff to have the scraps increased instead of the weight decreased. Some things are just big. And some things that are too light in the vanilla game for what they give you should be made heavier in my opinion.
I actually like this mod personally, however I am on the fence about using it. I have read some of the other posts and I suppose the most "logical" way to bring balance into the game with these items would be if you overhauled the entire crafting system (which I think would be a monumental task although I have no experience modding).
1. All the items in game would need to be reworked so they keep their original weight but provide more/less base components respective of how much of that particular component you could logically scavenge from that part. Examples would be : a tin can would give minimal metal while a piece of steel body armor or some metal scrap off the floor would give much more. A gold watch would give a small amount of gold however a gold bar would give a much larger amount even close to 40x as much. 2. You would have to change all the crafting recipes to be extensively more expensive dependent on their makeup, for example : a concrete wall should take a few bags of concrete and a large amount of steel to make. A wood wall should take a large amount of wood to make. A steel chair on the other hand would require little resources compared to a full fledged wall. 3. Weight of the components would need to be reworked to be similar to how you have described them in this mod. components being as a base would not be heavy per item plus the weight could be considered less since they may be small enough to stack and transport in tightly packed box's ect.
This is of course just random two-cents of mine with little to no modding experience. I only state this more or less in your defense that I like the mod as a whole and I find that carrying certain items like a microscope and type writer are horrifyingly heavy compared to the amount of components I receive from them. However I find that these heavy items are more or less indispensable to me as many of their components are in too short a supply for me to pass up.
Overall I feel like this would be fixed if we could just simply dismantle the items for parts right there on the spot, however that would reduce immersion as being able to scrap a type-writer down to bare components in the middle of a super-mutant infested area seems dangerous at best. Again I still like the aim and goal of this mod as it feels like it is aimed to make inventory management less of a chore.
heey nice mod but I think I have F###ed it up some how, It worked fine, but after I startet the new survival mode, it will not work anymore, what hvad I done wong ?
Hi Elysium7, don't know if you're still in the modding *business* or if you still care about this mod but the french translation is out of date, NMM keep asking me to update it to version 1.3.1 but the only version available is V1.3...I can help to make it up to date if you want, just PM me. Thanks for your mod btw, i really love it and plan to incorporate it in my own, i hope you don't mind. Credits will be given of course.
I feel like you might not have ever used a real typewriter or laboratory grade microscope, because you've made them far too light. I like the idea here, but I think its more convenient junk weight than it is logical junk weight. A good quality light* microscope has heft to it. And this is retro-future tech, so its going to be heavier than modern (already heavy) stuff.
I like the idea about component weights, but there are going to be different sized gears, different gauge metal, and different density glass. So the components themselves aren't logical enough to use as a basis for weight on their own.
The problem I have with mobetterscrap is that it seems to assume always getting every possible part out in working order from everything, and seems to unbalance the game (gears and screws are meant to be "rare" and it adds them to almost everything for instance).
So what I would recommend is to try for a balanced approach, using component weights were it makes sense but also researching real-world weights of things from the 50's (not modern ultra light polymers). And then try to find a good compromise while not making the junk too cumbersome to ruin the fun.
Here is an excerpt about a high end, ultra portable typewriter from the time "The typewriter is sized about 27x37x8 cm (with the carriage return lever adding about 1-2 more centimeters in height), making it quite portable at least for the time's standards, even though its 3.7 kg (8.2 lb) weight may limit portability somewhat." So I think the game's default value was generous enough (5lb), and adequately incorporated possible "miniaturization" in the retro-future tech (where things tend to get bigger, not smaller).
And you do get decent mats from them, and you can buy them cheap if you want to really corner the wasteland typewriter market. I usually buy them when I see them since they are so cheap for good mats. Phones and alarm clocks too. And cooking pots. I basically buy all the junk under 10caps that gives more than plastic or wood. Now I'm getting off topic, so that's a good place to end my feedback. I still think its a good idea and you've put good work into it, but there are just too many things that weigh too little that irritated me when I was looking it over in fo4edit to use for now.
*Light as in using light to image the sample, rather than electrons or ion beams. A standard, table-top optical microscope; research grade.
Thanks for the feedback, and I am quite aware of the heft of some of these items. I have a 5kg type writer sitting in my closet. In any case, the way I see it there are a few ways to address this issue. My initial goal was to give junk a baseline value so I didn't have to constantly check if something was worth taking if I needed the parts from it. While it was fairly simple to do, it may not have been the best approach. My intention was not to make the game easier at all, only to make exploring a little more enjoyable. I personally prefer things to be challenging, but that is starting to get a little off topic.
I personally don't agree with many of the decisions that were made with Mo Betta Scrap, I feel like there is enough scrap as it is. Some people like the mod and wanted my mod to work along with it, so there is that.
I created Logical Junk Weight after playing the game for couple days so I wasn't fully aware of the value of something like I screw. There are also other thnigs that need to be taken into consideration. While a type writer gives you a decent amount of various types of scrap, it really isn't the most sensible thing to take with you if you are deep in the wasteland, unless you happen to need screws, springs and gears equally. I believe there are better things to take ( weight wise ) if you happen to only really need one of the components. Then there is junk type rarity which is somewhat of a complex matter on its own. There seems to be more to it than a rarity value assigned to it by bethesda. The commonwealth is an extremely vast place and its very difficult for a single person to explore the entire thing on their own.
Believe me the same thoughts have crossed my mind multiple times, but I was not yet ready or sold on an idea good enough to commit to that would make everyone happy, and I'm still not sure I am. If I were to add weight to something like a type writer, without adjusting a bunch of other stuff, it is going to make the type writer less appealing to take. Granted it probably should have at least a little extra weight, but I haven't got around to doing so yet.
The problem with weight in FO4 is while it certainly does contribute to balance, it also creates a lot of micromanagement which can be loads of fun at first, but can then turn into something quite tedious. I suppose the only sensible solution would be to leave the current version as it is now, and commit any future changes to a separate version for those who are looking for a more realistic approach.
Throwing names like "logical" and "realistic" around as many people in these comments have reminded me. I was simply looking for something more catchy than "Lighter Junk Weight" but I kind of regret doing so now as some people are taking the name a literally.
The vanilla game really seems to have no shortage of junk, and the respawn rate is pretty rapid as well. At times it feels like I'm going shopping for junk if I run out of a component. Most areas seem to have a general theme about them, and the junk types are adjusted accordingly.
Anyway, the jist of it is there is a lot of careful thought and consideration to be done, and the vast amount of junk types certainly doesn't help. Perhaps I am over thinking things, who knows. Thanks again for the feedback, it really is appreciated. As I have stated in the future plans section I do plan on changing some stuff, but it is difficult to find the time to do so. I will make a forum section dedicated for suggestions if anyone would like to share their ideas and thoughts, having a compiled list of plans would make this a lot easier.
I'm just curious, you said "I have a 5kg type writer". Is there any chance what you mix-up kgs and lbs, which weight in game is measuring, while making this mod?
Good point. The vanilla weights/values of junk items are generally kind of accurate, the main problem being their component composition respect to their weight. Instead of having their weights reduced, typewriters/microscopes could contain more of their low value heavy components like steel and keep the same number of more high value components like screws/crystal. So changing only low value components number rather than the weight of junk items could make your mod balanced for scrap sellers, and way more logical for component hunters.
The reason I find Logical Junk Weight to be an immersive mod is due to factors like using pencils for lead (and other such nonsense). Or if you have four screwdrivers, you can build a metal wall, because the wall takes 4 Steel (or whatever the number of steel needed), and four screwdrivers gives you... 4 Steel.
So because of that nonsense that Bethesda coded into the game, it's only logical that an item's weight should be the equivalent of the components it gives. Now that's not to say that an option for "realistic" weights should be dismissed (assuming Elysium actually wants to put in the time for such a thing). But as it stands, you can build a metal wall out of a few screwdrivers, or a jukebox's glass top out of the glass from fuses. There's little actual logic to the materials needed for buildable items and the junk used to make them.
@skysfury i couldent have said it better myself. the illogical use of materials to craft large items is a massive immersion breaker for me. im one of those immersion fan boys sadly. i would be happy having to use different sized backpacks to be able to carry larger items that can only fit into larger bags. arma 2, 3 and dayz are a prime example of a backpack that would be amazing if implemented into fallout4 for them immersion junkies
>Changed the weight of burnt textbooks and burnt books to 0, those things are damned useless! -I do wonder, if there's an easy way to, say, make them give '1 fibre' or something like that... without the future GECK.
There probably is a way. I'm not sure how about the difficulty of such a thing, though. I'm seeing more and more mods that we weren't expecting to see until the CK came out.
82 comments
1. All the items in game would need to be reworked so they keep their original weight but provide more/less base components respective of how much of that particular component you could logically scavenge from that part. Examples would be : a tin can would give minimal metal while a piece of steel body armor or some metal scrap off the floor would give much more. A gold watch would give a small amount of gold however a gold bar would give a much larger amount even close to 40x as much.
2. You would have to change all the crafting recipes to be extensively more expensive dependent on their makeup, for example : a concrete wall should take a few bags of concrete and a large amount of steel to make. A wood wall should take a large amount of wood to make. A steel chair on the other hand would require little resources compared to a full fledged wall.
3. Weight of the components would need to be reworked to be similar to how you have described them in this mod. components being as a base would not be heavy per item plus the weight could be considered less since they may be small enough to stack and transport in tightly packed box's ect.
This is of course just random two-cents of mine with little to no modding experience. I only state this more or less in your defense that I like the mod as a whole and I find that carrying certain items like a microscope and type writer are horrifyingly heavy compared to the amount of components I receive from them. However I find that these heavy items are more or less indispensable to me as many of their components are in too short a supply for me to pass up.
Overall I feel like this would be fixed if we could just simply dismantle the items for parts right there on the spot, however that would reduce immersion as being able to scrap a type-writer down to bare components in the middle of a super-mutant infested area seems dangerous at best. Again I still like the aim and goal of this mod as it feels like it is aimed to make inventory management less of a chore.
I like the idea about component weights, but there are going to be different sized gears, different gauge metal, and different density glass. So the components themselves aren't logical enough to use as a basis for weight on their own.
The problem I have with mobetterscrap is that it seems to assume always getting every possible part out in working order from everything, and seems to unbalance the game (gears and screws are meant to be "rare" and it adds them to almost everything for instance).
So what I would recommend is to try for a balanced approach, using component weights were it makes sense but also researching real-world weights of things from the 50's (not modern ultra light polymers). And then try to find a good compromise while not making the junk too cumbersome to ruin the fun.
Here is an excerpt about a high end, ultra portable typewriter from the time "The typewriter is sized about 27x37x8 cm (with the carriage return lever adding about 1-2 more centimeters in height), making it quite portable at least for the time's standards, even though its 3.7 kg (8.2 lb) weight may limit portability somewhat." So I think the game's default value was generous enough (5lb), and adequately incorporated possible "miniaturization" in the retro-future tech (where things tend to get bigger, not smaller).
And you do get decent mats from them, and you can buy them cheap if you want to really corner the wasteland typewriter market. I usually buy them when I see them since they are so cheap for good mats. Phones and alarm clocks too. And cooking pots. I basically buy all the junk under 10caps that gives more than plastic or wood. Now I'm getting off topic, so that's a good place to end my feedback. I still think its a good idea and you've put good work into it, but there are just too many things that weigh too little that irritated me when I was looking it over in fo4edit to use for now.
*Light as in using light to image the sample, rather than electrons or ion beams. A standard, table-top optical microscope; research grade.
I personally don't agree with many of the decisions that were made with Mo Betta Scrap, I feel like there is enough scrap as it is. Some people like the mod and wanted my mod to work along with it, so there is that.
I created Logical Junk Weight after playing the game for couple days so I wasn't fully aware of the value of something like I screw. There are also other thnigs that need to be taken into consideration. While a type writer gives you a decent amount of various types of scrap, it really isn't the most sensible thing to take with you if you are deep in the wasteland, unless you happen to need screws, springs and gears equally. I believe there are better things to take ( weight wise ) if you happen to only really need one of the components. Then there is junk type rarity which is somewhat of a complex matter on its own. There seems to be more to it than a rarity value assigned to it by bethesda. The commonwealth is an extremely vast place and its very difficult for a single person to explore the entire thing on their own.
Believe me the same thoughts have crossed my mind multiple times, but I was not yet ready or sold on an idea good enough to commit to that would make everyone happy, and I'm still not sure I am. If I were to add weight to something like a type writer, without adjusting a bunch of other stuff, it is going to make the type writer less appealing to take. Granted it probably should have at least a little extra weight, but I haven't got around to doing so yet.
The problem with weight in FO4 is while it certainly does contribute to balance, it also creates a lot of micromanagement which can be loads of fun at first, but can then turn into something quite tedious. I suppose the only sensible solution would be to leave the current version as it is now, and commit any future changes to a separate version for those who are looking for a more realistic approach.
Throwing names like "logical" and "realistic" around as many people in these comments have reminded me. I was simply looking for something more catchy than "Lighter Junk Weight" but I kind of regret doing so now as some people are taking the name a literally.
The vanilla game really seems to have no shortage of junk, and the respawn rate is pretty rapid as well. At times it feels like I'm going shopping for junk if I run out of a component. Most areas seem to have a general theme about them, and the junk types are adjusted accordingly.
Anyway, the jist of it is there is a lot of careful thought and consideration to be done, and the vast amount of junk types certainly doesn't help. Perhaps I am over thinking things, who knows. Thanks again for the feedback, it really is appreciated. As I have stated in the future plans section I do plan on changing some stuff, but it is difficult to find the time to do so. I will make a forum section dedicated for suggestions if anyone would like to share their ideas and thoughts, having a compiled list of plans would make this a lot easier.
Instead of having their weights reduced, typewriters/microscopes could contain more of their low value heavy components like steel and keep the same number of more high value components like screws/crystal.
So changing only low value components number rather than the weight of junk items could make your mod balanced for scrap sellers, and way more logical for component hunters.
So because of that nonsense that Bethesda coded into the game, it's only logical that an item's weight should be the equivalent of the components it gives. Now that's not to say that an option for "realistic" weights should be dismissed (assuming Elysium actually wants to put in the time for such a thing). But as it stands, you can build a metal wall out of a few screwdrivers, or a jukebox's glass top out of the glass from fuses. There's little actual logic to the materials needed for buildable items and the junk used to make them.
-I do wonder, if there's an easy way to, say, make them give '1 fibre' or something like that... without the future GECK.