Wtf why would you want to NERF suppressors. thats literally not how physics work in the real world. Suppressors if anything INCREASE Ballistic trajectory if only by a very marginal bit and have absolutely NO affect on damage potential
i honestly feel like the people that would come here and click on your mod once they read what it actually does Are Not going to be interested in since it basically does the exact opposite of what many would be looking for you know realism.
When I saw the title I got excited, only to see that it is the exact opposite of what I wanted... Sorry to tell you this, but in real life suppressors (aka silencers) do NOT decrease the weapon's ballistics or range in any way. In fact, in most cases there is a slight (albeit negligible) INCREASE in muzzle velocity while using a suppressor. So all of this video game/movie logic that adding a suppressor will have a detrimental effect on the weapon's power or range is completely a myth (unless you're talking about the old-school contacting disk style suppressors that pretty much nobody uses anymore...). If you want to know the real disadvantage of using a suppressor and why everyone doesn't simply use one on every gun all of the time: It makes the firearm longer, thus harder to maneuver indoors and also more mass to swing when moving from target to target, and also the heat. Firing a lot of rounds through a suppressor builds up a lot of heat. It also does occasionally cause jams in firearms that use the gases to cycle the weapons since that is all altered once a can is installed... But this whole "let's decrease the power of the firearm because it has a suppressor installed" thing would have made the game unplayable for me. I'm glad all they did was decrease the range a bit, even though that in itself is already unrealistic, at least it's nothing drastic to the way it performs like this mod...
The point of the mod is to help balance out the broken Bethesda stealth mechanic not to be realistic. Regardless of how they work in real life the game itself already isn't an exact depiction of how firearms work. Sacrifices to realism must be made so that the entire arsenal available to the player is usable and can be tailored to their play style. Choosing a pistol over a rifle in the game is not done for the same reasons one would choose so in real life when you have only the weight and DPI of your mouse to worry about.
I'm going to side with the Mod Author on this one. The modern silencer argument would hold up better in a game with modern weapons. Look around the Fallout world. Have you seen a ballistic weapon developed after the late 40's. So you could assume any silencer still used swipes. And don't forget about Pipe Guns that are probably using old oil filters for suppressors.
Actually if you include fallout 3 there were multiple guns that were developed after the 40s including the assault rifle, 10mm pistol and a few others.
As for realism unless your sticking it on a 22lr a suppressor wont actually make the gun quiet. Unless your using expensive sub sonic ammo which would basically turn allot of the rifles into glorified oversized small-moderate caliber pistols.
So if you really want realism simply make it so enemies can detect you much easier when using a suppressor or make it so it reduces the damage the rifles deal.
And the two best silenced weapons in history are BOTH form World War 2, the British Welrod and DeLisle Carbine Note the US M3 Grease gun is also incredibly quiet when silenced the M3 and DeLisle both use full power .45 ACP rounds, which are extremely effective manstoppers (less about power and more about momentum and dropping as much energy into the target as possible rather than punch through and waste energy beyond)
The Welrod does use solid rubber baffles so it is practically silent
the only advantages modern tech has given silencer design are the abilities to make them out of alloys more resistant to corrosion and easier to clean better understanding and computer modelling of gas flow so they can create better baffle systems
the reality of combat is, if the poor sod or animal doesn't know you are there, and there's no rush, you CAN get much easier lethal shots, because they aren't moving so much or taking cover in a round about fashion, that is why modern assault rifles (call them what you will) are so much better than prior weapons in actual effectiveness, because combined with precision crafting and optical sights, they allow soldiers to routinely get hits into the lethal 3" rectangle from eyes to liver. so even the smaller 5.56mm rounds are efficiently lethal (they have less recoil, so better accuracy and thus almost ideal for such)
yeah the stealth system has issues, but really, doubling the number of enemies and increasing their awareness would be better
No I wasn't including Fallout 3's weapons. There are a number of things the developers chose not to include or roll back. Assault rifles and 10mm have been around since the 40's.
Realism.....In this land of shoulder fired tactical nukes! God I hope not. :)
WileyQuixote - "Have you seen a ballistic weapon developed after the late 40's."
Are you kidding us? We have weapons like the Steyr AUG, M-16 AR and Pangor Jackhammer that are literally within Fallout games and are absolutely lore friendly. It's not unreasonable to consider that there might be suppressors that were made after 1909.
So instead of nerfing the suppressors, buff the commando perk or something like that. It's funny, but you could alternatively just _not use the suppressors_.
@Mudchop Sure it's not supposed to be an exact depiction of real life, but at the same time does that mean you have to strive to go exactly the opposite way? Why don't we just make gravity backwards too, you know, it's not real life afterall...
@WileyQuixote Hm, let's see, the 10mm round wasn't even invented until the 1980's for one, in previous Fallout games there were weapons like the "All American" which was basically a M16, the minigun was developed in the 1960's, pretty sure the combat shotgun especially if it's capable of automatic fire wasn't around until at least the 1970's... And why limit it to ballistic weapons? Because all of the energy weapons that were supposed to have been developed well into the future would totally debunk your argument that this was supposed to somehow only have 1940's technology? Also, if you're going to make that argument, then suppressors/silencers of the type I mentioned that isn't used anymore also have another limitation. They only really work for the first few rounds, then once those disks are worn down from the contact with the bullets, they simply stop making the firearm any quieter. So I guess under your logic we need a mod that makes it so you'll have to make a new suppressor and reattach it after a few shots every time? Either way, I never said the mod author shouldn't make this. There are plenty of people who buy everything video games and movies tell them who played this thinking that suppressors should be more of a detriment to the firearm's ballistics who would enjoy this mod, so more power to him/her. I am simply pointing something out in case anyone is interested in knowing about it...
@WileyQuixote Uh, the 10mm has been around since the 40's? Is that your final answer?? You know you have the wealth of information called the "Internet" at your disposal to double check that before commenting right?
I'll concede that certain ammo types and a couple of weapons types may have come after the 40's. But that is beside the point. I wasn't talking about mod added weapons or weapons in prior Fallout titles. The point is. If you are making a silencer out of what ever is lying around like an oil filter you probably aren't going to get optimal performance much like the earlier silencers. This mod is not out out of line in the FO4 world.
Look at it like this. It is just as plausible that they are using out dated tech to make the silencers as it is for them to be making computers with vacuum tubes or still using asbestos in cigarette filters.
@WileyQuixote Actually, even that is incorrect. The reason the earlier silencers/suppressors had a detrimental effect on ballistics was because they actually had disks that made contact with the bullet as it exited the muzzle. Those only worked for a few shots for obvious reasons. Any suppressor or muzzle device that does not make direct contact with the bullet would not have a detriment to its ballistics. So even a homemade suppressor (I will neither confirm nor deny that I may know several people who may or may not have done so in the past, or not...) would not have a detrimental effect on the bullet's ballistics... In fact, adding anything to the end of the barrel would actually end up providing more space and time for the powder to burn behind the bullet, actually acting as a barrel extension, which should actually INCREASE muzzle velocity, but only slightly (negligible actually), I'm not trying to claim that it would actually benefit ballistics.
So unless you're trying to claim that the game intended for these suppressors to be of the type that made physical contact with the bullet via disks that it'll have to travel through, thus only working for a few shots until they are worn down enough to no longer make contact with the bullets, then no matter what, home made, professionally made, it would not slow down the bullets and would not decrease a weapon's range or power.
The only thing I can say that would happen if you're going back and forth between suppressed and not suppressed is that the point of impact would shift with it on or off. No, this is not a change in accuracy. Accuracy in firearms is measured in the size of the groups it would shoot. When I say the point of impact would shift, I mean the size of the groupings would remain the same, but might shift slightly in one direction or another depending on if you're shooting with the can on or off. But in-game since the sights are always "sighted in" the moment they are installed, this effect would not translate to anything in-game.
The reason why lowered damage and range is so common in balancing a suppressor in a video game is that it's implied that subsonic ammunition is used alongside the suppressor. No it doesn't make too much sense that you're still using standard ammunition which magically becomes subsonic when loaded into a weapon with a suppressor but it's just one of the concessions made at the expense of realism for the sake of gameplay.
@MedicinalFoetus I don't know, you could be right, but to me, it's one of two possibilities. 1. The people making the games don't know all of the technical details about firearms. This conclusion is supported by the fact that the majority of video games do the reload animations completely wrong on all of the firearms. Or 2. They want to balance it to where there's a reason for you to not use a suppressor since the weapon clipping on walls and doorways don't make a difference in how the gun performs indoors and they don't want to go through the trouble of actually simulating malfunctions or the can overheating and warping. So basically, there isn't any mechanism in the game to simulate the actual downsides to using a suppressor so they nerf it to make it a compromise in using it.
I don't really see the subsonic ammo thing as much of a possibility because there is never any mention of such a thing in any game and if they can't even get the mechanical functions of the firearms or do their reload animations correct, what is the possibility of them actually even knowing about subsonic ammunition?
@DemonMustang45 You seem to be under the false impression I have been claiming that modern silencers don't work the way you say they do. I never said anything of the sort. What I was saying is that this mod is plausible in the world that it was created for. It is plausible that the their silencer tech is just as messed up as their computer tech. Or perhaps it isn't supposed to have a real world application. I mean come on Vulcans are not hand held weapons and they aren't as wildly inaccurate. Codsworth's AI would require a link up to some thousand acre multi story site to contain all the vacuum tube boards. Not to mention that a dirigible the size of the Prydwen wouldn't be able to lift its own walk ways much less all the housing, labs and oh yeah 4 aircraft. That said the mini gun looks cool and is fun to use. Codsworth is a great character. And the Prydwen is a really fun set piece. In that world a silencer made out of an automotive oil filter and duck tape might not improve a weapons firing characteristics.
@WileyQuixote And in all of that, it still doesn't address the fact that no matter what it's made out of, if nothing makes contact with the bullets, why would the ballistics be changed? And for the rest of that rant, let's rewind to my reply to Mudchop. The game isn't a representation of real life, which is fine, the decreased range effect of the suppressor is already unrealistic and already in the game, my point is why go through the trouble of making a mod just to make it go even further from it? So under your logic of "If it's already unrealistic, why not make it even more unrealistic?" Someone should make a mod where there's a full fledged skyscraper and stadium sitting on top of the Prydwen, there should be a hand-held... wait a minute, have you NOT watched Terminator 2???, anyway, and about the whole vacuum tube thing, where was it stated that is the tech behind their computers? There are circuit boards all over the game clearly with capacitors and microprocessors on them...
I can't let this slide I'm sorry SilverbladeTE. Its a complete myth that .45 acp has more stopping power than other pistol cartridges, such as 9mm and .40 S&W. Pretty much all pistol calibres have statistically negligible stopping power. This has been tested by the FBI, its why they carry 9mm.
If anything, 9mm is more effective at 'stopping' a threat due to the ease of target re-acquisition, high capacity and recent advances in 9mm ballistics.
If the Sole Survivor can craft military grade receivers, barrels, scopes, etc., then surely s/he can craft efficient and durable military grade suppressors as well, even though externally they may look like they've been made out of oil can
Even a poorly made suppressor would not degrade the ballistics. The worst that could happen is it doesn't suppress the noise very well, or it can blow up, lol.
Besides, I think that we can all agree that in Fallout-verse, everything is... better - the buildings are more durable, the hydrogen is somehow more potent (which is why Prydwen can remain airborne), robots still function after 200+ years, with capabilities vastly exceeding limitations of vacuum tube electronics, etc. So I think it's certainly possible that Fallout suppressors are better in terms of capabilities as well, do not degrade, suppress gunshots better, and do not affect bullet ballistics in any way.
So, yeah, while I can understand author's train of thought, I do not agree with it :)
It literally would have been easier for you to reduce stealth damage multipliers (or eliminate them entirely) than to edit all of the suppressors. Bethesda's weapon mods don't make any actual sense anyway.
Suppressors do not silence weapons, only reduce the noise profile.
Suppressors do not reduce the speed at which bullets travel (we have sub sonic rounds for that) so they should not be affecting range or damage positively or negatively.
Compensators should increase the noise profile of the weapon. Muzzle Brakes should further increase the noise profile of the weapon. But they don't. Instead they reduce range which is stupid, Compensators and Muzzle Brakes don't reduce your effective range.
31 comments
Suppressors if anything INCREASE Ballistic trajectory if only by a very marginal bit and have absolutely NO affect on damage potential
i honestly feel like the people that would come here and click on your mod once they read what it actually does Are Not going to be interested in since it basically does the exact opposite of what many would be looking for you know realism.
As for realism unless your sticking it on a 22lr a suppressor wont actually make the gun quiet. Unless your using expensive sub sonic ammo which would basically turn allot of the rifles into glorified oversized small-moderate caliber pistols.
So if you really want realism simply make it so enemies can detect you much easier when using a suppressor or make it so it reduces the damage the rifles deal.
Note the US M3 Grease gun is also incredibly quiet when silenced
the M3 and DeLisle both use full power .45 ACP rounds, which are extremely effective manstoppers (less about power and more about momentum and dropping as much energy into the target as possible rather than punch through and waste energy beyond)
The Welrod does use solid rubber baffles so it is practically silent
the only advantages modern tech has given silencer design are the abilities to make them out of alloys more resistant to corrosion and easier to clean
better understanding and computer modelling of gas flow so they can create better baffle systems
the reality of combat is, if the poor sod or animal doesn't know you are there, and there's no rush, you CAN get much easier lethal shots, because they aren't moving so much or taking cover
in a round about fashion, that is why modern assault rifles (call them what you will) are so much better than prior weapons in actual effectiveness, because combined with precision crafting and optical sights, they allow soldiers to routinely get hits into the lethal 3" rectangle from eyes to liver. so even the smaller 5.56mm rounds are efficiently lethal (they have less recoil, so better accuracy and thus almost ideal for such)
yeah the stealth system has issues, but really, doubling the number of enemies and increasing their awareness would be better
Realism.....In this land of shoulder fired tactical nukes! God I hope not. :)
Are you kidding us? We have weapons like the Steyr AUG, M-16 AR and Pangor Jackhammer that are literally within Fallout games and are absolutely lore friendly. It's not unreasonable to consider that there might be suppressors that were made after 1909.
Look at it like this. It is just as plausible that they are using out dated tech to make the silencers as it is for them to be making computers with vacuum tubes or still using asbestos in cigarette filters.
So unless you're trying to claim that the game intended for these suppressors to be of the type that made physical contact with the bullet via disks that it'll have to travel through, thus only working for a few shots until they are worn down enough to no longer make contact with the bullets, then no matter what, home made, professionally made, it would not slow down the bullets and would not decrease a weapon's range or power.
The only thing I can say that would happen if you're going back and forth between suppressed and not suppressed is that the point of impact would shift with it on or off. No, this is not a change in accuracy. Accuracy in firearms is measured in the size of the groups it would shoot. When I say the point of impact would shift, I mean the size of the groupings would remain the same, but might shift slightly in one direction or another depending on if you're shooting with the can on or off. But in-game since the sights are always "sighted in" the moment they are installed, this effect would not translate to anything in-game.
No it doesn't make too much sense that you're still using standard ammunition which magically becomes subsonic when loaded into a weapon with a suppressor but it's just one of the concessions made at the expense of realism for the sake of gameplay.
I don't really see the subsonic ammo thing as much of a possibility because there is never any mention of such a thing in any game and if they can't even get the mechanical functions of the firearms or do their reload animations correct, what is the possibility of them actually even knowing about subsonic ammunition?
Anyway, that's just my take on it...
I wish you a good game and good night.
If anything, 9mm is more effective at 'stopping' a threat due to the ease of target re-acquisition, high capacity and recent advances in 9mm ballistics.
Besides, I think that we can all agree that in Fallout-verse, everything is... better - the buildings are more durable, the hydrogen is somehow more potent (which is why Prydwen can remain airborne), robots still function after 200+ years, with capabilities vastly exceeding limitations of vacuum tube electronics, etc. So I think it's certainly possible that Fallout suppressors are better in terms of capabilities as well, do not degrade, suppress gunshots better, and do not affect bullet ballistics in any way.
So, yeah, while I can understand author's train of thought, I do not agree with it :)
Suppressors do not silence weapons, only reduce the noise profile.
Suppressors do not reduce the speed at which bullets travel (we have sub sonic rounds for that) so they should not be affecting range or damage positively or negatively.
Compensators should increase the noise profile of the weapon. Muzzle Brakes should further increase the noise profile of the weapon. But they don't. Instead they reduce range which is stupid, Compensators and Muzzle Brakes don't reduce your effective range.
TL;DR: Bethesda doesn't know how to guns