Got a cert error in the NMM beta, just so you know. Signed, "Open up Frost, you got the duty." - Apone, Aliens. I REALLY need this mod, desperately. Kojira strong.
You do realize that pencils of the 50s were made using lead? Fallout's lore defaults to the 1050s aesthetic in this world they never stopped using lead in their pencils.
So it's actually quite wrong for pencils not to give lead as they definitely have lead in them in this game.
actually, that is a myth, paddygarcia and LABTECH explain why a few comments down, as lead was used in ancient times, and not on paper...but it is still associated with writing today, and made popular in older crime myteries where someone stuck a whole lotta graphite in someones coffe, and was confused when they didnt get lead poisoning. my theory is that bethesda used pencils as a way to distribute lead commonly throughout the wasteland...
A small and light mod with some very heavy implication's.
Nice and a lore fix.
You are right about baton's with the old police truncheon being a case in point (never understand how smashing a suspect's skull in was upholding the law but hey different time's), well I supposed it added weight to the word of the law.
(Pencil's did have lead a long time ago but that was before even I was born and I had to wrestle Pterodactyl's for there egg's just to get an omelette)
Endorse shortly. Thank's for the fix.
Hey did you know there is even a theory about how lead poisoning contributed to the downfall of the Roman Empire.
Back in the time of Rome LEAD or PLUMBION was a wonder material, the plastic of it's day and you know how the Roman's loved there water work's, fountain's and PLUMBING (were we get the word from - lead) they learned they could use this soft metal to make pipe's and all manner of water related things, this of course meant the water the Romans drank had a very high Lead content but it does not end there, among many other thing's we today would not eat they also used Lead as a food coloring in there cooking as Red Lead made it look attractive, they also often cooked in lead pot's and used lead in there fermentation barrels as well, it did not end the Roman empire but it probably contributed towards it.
This meant that in particular the wealthy Roman's ate and drank far more of the lead than the poor Roman's and over a few generation's the descendant's of the ruling class suffered so much lead in there body's that it caused imbecility (made them stupid and insane) as well as lead caused gout a crippling painful affliction.
During the Victorian period up to the early 20th century LEAD was used to seal canned good's and lead poisoning caused by the lead leaking into the food or corroding into it became a serious problem but thankfully medical science was a little more advanced than in the Roman period so they learned about it, of course many old houses still had lead pipes (and some maybe still do today) right up to the late twentieth century.
(And today we are starting to suspect our plastic pipes may not be entirely toxin free, ah well back to ceramic)
It's "plumbum" not "plumbion." Also the ancient Romans were aware of the health hazards posed by lead.
From Vitruvius' De Architectura, book VIII: "10. Water conducted through earthen pipes is more wholesome than that through lead; indeed that conveyed in lead must be injurious, because from it white lead is obtained, and this is said to be injurious to the human system. Hence, if what is generated from it is pernicious, there can be no doubt that itself cannot be a wholesome body.
[Legamen ad paginam Latinam] 11. This may be verified by observing the workers in lead, who are of a pallid colour; for in casting lead, the fumes from it fixing on the different members, and daily burning them, destroy the vigour of the blood; water should therefore on no account be conducted in leaden pipes if we are desirous that it should be wholesome. That the flavour of that conveyed in earthen pipes is better, is shewn at our daily meals, for all those whose tables are furnished with silver vessels, nevertheless use those made of earth, from the purity of the flavour being preserved in them."
As it stand's I am suffering intense insomnia at the moment but have to reply here, my spelling is not a case in point so why do you point it out in such a harsh and utterly condescending manner which is actually extremely rude and ill in temperament.
(But hey I forgive, actually I loved that comment, nothing like a debate to learn and share fact's and not like I am nice all the time myself either, also you are correct as to my spelling, you know I was actually a qualified Laboratory and Electronic technician once upon a time, oh a very long time ago, so really should not have made that mistake now should I but then it just sat in my mind as Pb)
Now just think on this, How true to the original text's are these texts you quote.
I suggest you read the last two paragraph's of your first quoted page, remember Latin (roman period) had what to us being English speakers was a kind of reverse grammar in it's context's and often this also contributes toward translation errors, also how many time's has the supposed original Latin text been transcribed AND how many time's during those transcription's did the language itself morph as all languages do and need re-interpretation with yet more error creeping into those translation's.
It is not a discredited Hypothesis at all, and you may also like to note that I did not say that it led to the downfall but that it CONTRIBUTED toward it, check your fact's. The real end of the Roman empire was the schism and break down caused actually far more by it's failure in logistic governance, the empire grew too big and too unwieldy, the provinces took more and more power unto themselves and corruption flourished, couple this with the power struggles between the four emperor's which was probably the culmination of century's of decline.
The truth about the Goth's however is rather poorly known, they were not the brutes that history like's to paint them as and indeed had worked for the Roman's for a time before turning upon there former pay master's, they of course were the one's that put the death knell upon Rome in 410 ad or there about's but it had long lost's it power base by that time and the empire existed only in name.
You know perversely they valued Roman culture so much that the Goth's that settled in Iberia (Spain) continued to live in the Roman fashion with there own twist upon it until they themselves fell to the invading Arab's from north Africa during a civil war of succession in there own kingdom.
They had defeated the Roman's because they knew the roman tactic's, had worked in and with the Roman army's fighting Rome's other enemy's and had probably better weapon metallurgy than the Roman's which meant they had better sword's and axes which could slice through the Roman shield's.
So in effect there was not one single cause to Rome's fall, it was a combination of many factor's, decay of the empire, weakening of Rome's control over it, potentially the die off of the Roman patrician class and the subsequent change in the roman hierarchy and power structure in a manner not conducive to the continuation of an unbroken power base, in part caused by lead induced imbecility (it has not been disproved OR discredited and is simply a blatant lie as a statement though to my knowledge it was NEVER claimed to be the sole cause just a potential contributing factor), enemy's whom were simply superior soldiers, battle hardened and familiar, indeed trained in Roman tactic's with superior sword's, axes and spears to the Roman's.
This may interest you, there was also another contributing factor argued by some, Roman tactic's had been built around the use of the Gladius from the time of there battle's with the Celt's (whose sword was also superior to the Roman sword but only for one on one tactic's) which as you know was a short stabbing sword like a large dagger which was intended to be used in conjunction with the shield in close combat but the Roman army's had long since replaced the Gladius with the Spatha, a longer (but not as long as the swords of the Goth's) slicing two edged sword and the argument was that while the Spatha was superior to the Gladius for one on one combat it actually promoted bad tactic's which failed the Roman team method of battle and instead of getting in close with the shield wall and stabbing the soldiers now equipped with the Spatha were tempted to open there defense and swing or hack with it while with the earlier and to all intent's and purposed far inferior Gladius they would have to get really close, shield to shield and only strike when they were butting up against there enemy's (it actually suited the Roman's whose average height was about 5'4" while the celt's they were fighting in the time of Ceaser ranged from about 5'7" up to over 6', the Celts of course had a warrior culture and were head hunters so each warrior wanted his own glory, like lemming's running off of the cliff's of Greenland these Celt's broke upon the shield wall of the early roman soldiers', way to avenge beard pulling in the temple of Jupiter eh?.
I might make a "sister" mod to this, it would be ammo crafting, but realistic, and viable, as an [amatuer] handloader an survivalist/prepper (yes i have plans to build a bunker), ive actually made black powder and black powder cartridge rounds. Its actually simpler with the component system FO4 has than when i tried (anD gave up) to implement this idea in fallout 3. if y'all like the idea, i'll go ahead with it.
I've heard that in fact pencils never did contain lead. The earliest pencils were graphite sticks cut out of naturally occurring chunks of graphite. Graphite was a new mineral, and sort of looks like lead, so it was called lead.
I googled it a bit and found some corroboration for that story, and no contradictions. Also, I've never seen a "lead" pencil in real life, or in a museum, or in a photo. You can't buy retro lead pencils. There's no retro art using lead pencils. I've never heard of an artist (or anyone) from the past using lead. Besides, ever tried writing with a piece of lead? it's not much good for writing, about as hard and faint as a 100H pencil. It would never have caught on. (Especially before smooth, bright white paper.)
Huh, i always believed in that apparent myth. I feel extremely stupid, as ive hand casted lead shot for muskets in a civil war reenactment...it never really clicked a the time...still, Bethesda needed a way to easily distribute lead around the wasteland, ad as usual, they overthunk it.
I have metal lead scribe used for marking iron and stone, not a metal scribe used to scratch mark but surface mark only, the soft lead marks against the other metal easily (except polished metal of course) but BEFORE the modern pencil was invented in the 16th century Lead was actually used and it goes back even to the Egyptians and Romans.
Here is some stuff on the net. http://www.lead.org.au/lanv4n3/lanv4n3-11.html https://pencils.com/pencil-history/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/11/why-pencil-lead-is-called-lead/
What is really amazing though is that we do still associate pencil's with Lead even after all these century's.
PaddyGarcia makes a very good point though, lead was only the stylus and ink was used even on ancient papyrus, lead was probably used as a stylus back then because it was easily shaped and could be easily resharpened.
Of course it beg's the question when did we first start to use the Quill, the ancestor of the fountain pen (Which itself is a stylus with ink on it?).
22 comments
So it's actually quite wrong for pencils not to give lead as they definitely have lead in them in this game.
my theory is that bethesda used pencils as a way to distribute lead commonly throughout the wasteland...
Nice and a lore fix.
You are right about baton's with the old police truncheon being a case in point (never understand how smashing a suspect's skull in was upholding the law but hey different time's), well I supposed it added weight to the word of the law.
(Pencil's did have lead a long time ago but that was before even I was born and I had to wrestle Pterodactyl's for there egg's just to get an omelette)
Endorse shortly.
Thank's for the fix.
Hey did you know there is even a theory about how lead poisoning contributed to the downfall of the Roman Empire.
Back in the time of Rome LEAD or PLUMBION was a wonder material, the plastic of it's day and you know how the Roman's loved there water work's, fountain's and PLUMBING (were we get the word from - lead) they learned they could use this soft metal to make pipe's and all manner of water related things, this of course meant the water the Romans drank had a very high Lead content but it does not end there, among many other thing's we today would not eat they also used Lead as a food coloring in there cooking as Red Lead made it look attractive, they also often cooked in lead pot's and used lead in there fermentation barrels as well, it did not end the Roman empire but it probably contributed towards it.
This meant that in particular the wealthy Roman's ate and drank far more of the lead than the poor Roman's and over a few generation's the descendant's of the ruling class suffered so much lead in there body's that it caused imbecility (made them stupid and insane) as well as lead caused gout a crippling painful affliction.
During the Victorian period up to the early 20th century LEAD was used to seal canned good's and lead poisoning caused by the lead leaking into the food or corroding into it became a serious problem but thankfully medical science was a little more advanced than in the Roman period so they learned about it, of course many old houses still had lead pipes (and some maybe still do today) right up to the late twentieth century.
(And today we are starting to suspect our plastic pipes may not be entirely toxin free, ah well back to ceramic)
From Vitruvius' De Architectura, book VIII: "10. Water conducted through earthen pipes is more wholesome than that through lead; indeed that conveyed in lead must be injurious, because from it white lead is obtained, and this is said to be injurious to the human system. Hence, if what is generated from it is pernicious, there can be no doubt that itself cannot be a wholesome body.
[Legamen ad paginam Latinam] 11. This may be verified by observing the workers in lead, who are of a pallid colour; for in casting lead, the fumes from it fixing on the different members, and daily burning them, destroy the vigour of the blood; water should therefore on no account be conducted in leaden pipes if we are desirous that it should be wholesome. That the flavour of that conveyed in earthen pipes is better, is shewn at our daily meals, for all those whose tables are furnished with silver vessels, nevertheless use those made of earth, from the purity of the flavour being preserved in them."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/8*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_architectura#Materials
The hypothesis that lead poisoning led to the downfall of the Roman Empire is an old and thoroughly discredited one.
(But hey I forgive, actually I loved that comment, nothing like a debate to learn and share fact's and not like I am nice all the time myself either, also you are correct as to my spelling, you know I was actually a qualified Laboratory and Electronic technician once upon a time, oh a very long time ago, so really should not have made that mistake now should I but then it just sat in my mind as Pb)
Now just think on this, How true to the original text's are these texts you quote.
I suggest you read the last two paragraph's of your first quoted page, remember Latin (roman period) had what to us being English speakers was a kind of reverse grammar in it's context's and often this also contributes toward translation errors, also how many time's has the supposed original Latin text been transcribed AND how many time's during those transcription's did the language itself morph as all languages do and need re-interpretation with yet more error creeping into those translation's.
It is not a discredited Hypothesis at all, and you may also like to note that I did not say that it led to the downfall but that it CONTRIBUTED toward it, check your fact's.
The real end of the Roman empire was the schism and break down caused actually far more by it's failure in logistic governance, the empire grew too big and too unwieldy, the provinces took more and more power unto themselves and corruption flourished, couple this with the power struggles between the four emperor's which was probably the culmination of century's of decline.
The truth about the Goth's however is rather poorly known, they were not the brutes that history like's to paint them as and indeed had worked for the Roman's for a time before turning upon there former pay master's, they of course were the one's that put the death knell upon Rome in 410 ad or there about's but it had long lost's it power base by that time and the empire existed only in name.
You know perversely they valued Roman culture so much that the Goth's that settled in Iberia (Spain) continued to live in the Roman fashion with there own twist upon it until they themselves fell to the invading Arab's from north Africa during a civil war of succession in there own kingdom.
They had defeated the Roman's because they knew the roman tactic's, had worked in and with the Roman army's fighting Rome's other enemy's and had probably better weapon metallurgy than the Roman's which meant they had better sword's and axes which could slice through the Roman shield's.
So in effect there was not one single cause to Rome's fall, it was a combination of many factor's, decay of the empire, weakening of Rome's control over it, potentially the die off of the Roman patrician class and the subsequent change in the roman hierarchy and power structure in a manner not conducive to the continuation of an unbroken power base, in part caused by lead induced imbecility (it has not been disproved OR discredited and is simply a blatant lie as a statement though to my knowledge it was NEVER claimed to be the sole cause just a potential contributing factor), enemy's whom were simply superior soldiers, battle hardened and familiar, indeed trained in Roman tactic's with superior sword's, axes and spears to the Roman's.
This may interest you, there was also another contributing factor argued by some, Roman tactic's had been built around the use of the Gladius from the time of there battle's with the Celt's (whose sword was also superior to the Roman sword but only for one on one tactic's) which as you know was a short stabbing sword like a large dagger which was intended to be used in conjunction with the shield in close combat but the Roman army's had long since replaced the Gladius with the Spatha, a longer (but not as long as the swords of the Goth's) slicing two edged sword and the argument was that while the Spatha was superior to the Gladius for one on one combat it actually promoted bad tactic's which failed the Roman team method of battle and instead of getting in close with the shield wall and stabbing the soldiers now equipped with the Spatha were tempted to open there defense and swing or hack with it while with the earlier and to all intent's and purposed far inferior Gladius they would have to get really close, shield to shield and only strike when they were butting up against there enemy's (it actually suited the Roman's whose average height was about 5'4" while the celt's they were fighting in the time of Ceaser ranged from about 5'7" up to over 6', the Celts of course had a warrior culture and were head hunters so each warrior wanted his own glory, like lemming's running off of the cliff's of Greenland these Celt's broke upon the shield wall of the early roman soldiers', way to avenge beard pulling in the temple of Jupiter eh?.
I googled it a bit and found some corroboration for that story, and no contradictions. Also, I've never seen a "lead" pencil in real life, or in a museum, or in a photo. You can't buy retro lead pencils. There's no retro art using lead pencils. I've never heard of an artist (or anyone) from the past using lead. Besides, ever tried writing with a piece of lead? it's not much good for writing, about as hard and faint as a 100H pencil. It would never have caught on. (Especially before smooth, bright white paper.)
Or, maybe they started using lead in 2077.
Here is some stuff on the net.
http://www.lead.org.au/lanv4n3/lanv4n3-11.html
https://pencils.com/pencil-history/
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/11/why-pencil-lead-is-called-lead/
What is really amazing though is that we do still associate pencil's with Lead even after all these century's.
PaddyGarcia makes a very good point though, lead was only the stylus and ink was used even on ancient papyrus, lead was probably used as a stylus back then because it was easily shaped and could be easily resharpened.
Of course it beg's the question when did we first start to use the Quill, the ancestor of the fountain pen (Which itself is a stylus with ink on it?).