Is the mod compatible with AK-47 Standalone Weapon - AK-47 1.0? If not would you consider making it compatible? The lack of soviet-type weaponry in a survival situation is rather glaring to me (in 200+ years you'd think there would be some proliferation at least from South America).
I'm having a serious issue with gun damage. Installed Gun Nut, started a brand new game, result: Weapons with no changes to the default names are fine (10mm, pipe pistols, pipe rifles, etc); any gun with a new name (renames Gun Nut makes, e.g. breech gun) do 1 damage with no way to affect the damage (neither with different ammo nor via the weapon bench). I saw nothing on the known issues or bug pages, but this can't be a new thing as it's too easily reproduce-able.
Edit: Altered the load order so Gun Nut loaded last and it seems to work now. (Although a lot of the options don't seem to change guns for the better; cleaning slides often degrades accuracy? Weird. Ex. breech gun.) Just to note, I have no other gun affecting mods installed.
This mod is unfortunately rather intrusive, it modifies a lot of content, so is best to load last, as you discovered.
The 1-damage thing is intentional. The *bullets* determine the damage value, not the gun itself. (Bullets have a damage rating, too. In vanilla, this is set to 0. I flipped it around).
The "accuracy" rating you see in-game is derived from a large amount of variables; recoil (of varying directions), spread, precision. It seems to do its own thing, but I can tell you none of the upgrades make your gun worse, that just wouldn't make sense
The "1 damage" thing was definitely a bug. As soon as I placed the mod last in my load-order, the damage auto-corrected.
And certain mods definitely make the guns worse. Anything that lowers accuracy is significantly bad. I did something that allegedly increased fire rate and decreased accuracy (on a breech gun, double-barrel shotgun for you vanilla folks) and I couldn't hit anything with it, even at point-blank range. Even vats couldn't save me for hitting something. It was awful. I reverted the save, went back one mod that didn't touch accuracy, and the gun worked pretty good.
So yes, stats definitely change the gun. And some of the mods do lower accuracy, which is certainly detrimental. In this case, the breech gun has three barrel sizes, original, sawn off, and long. The second option decreases accuracy for better criticals, but it broke the gun and made it so inaccurate I couldn't hit beasties with it, because it lowered accuracy. This is partly because the breech gun starts off with a low accuracy and sites are one of the few things in the game that add accuracy, which most weapons lack under Gun Nut.
That said, I do like the replayability that Gun Nut adds to the game and I will continue experimenting with it. I appreciate the effort that has gone into the mod thus far, and look forward to seeing how things expand.
Open it up in the CK and see, each gun is set to have damage value of 1, except lasers. This is intentional.
The damage rating you see in-game is from the bullets.
If you have some other mod which touches guns and/or ammunition, it will interfere with this mod, causing the condition you describe.
I have not touched the ballistics for combat shotgun or double barrel shotgun, only changed name/description. That said, I will look into this and see what I can find.
If you decide continue to use this mod, please be sure and update it too, as I add new versions, because I am constantly adjusting small things.
By chance, have you encountered a bug where some guns have redundant mod categories? Like two Receiver, 2 barrel, etc. This is happening for me on occasion and I am curious if it is something on my end, or with the mod in general.
In my fresh game, which I installed Gun Nut for, I haven't experienced anything hinky with double weapon mods. (Note: I haven't disabled this mod at all. If I do, I'll probably remove all weapon mods first.) I do find most of the weapon mod options to be rather limited, as there are clear winners, even moreso than vanilla. Also I found the weapon damage a little high for Survival, as now it's a matter of surprise -- whomever opens fire first wins (one or two bullets and one of us is dead); I don't even hear miniguns firing until Dogmeat is down and whimpering. I'm writing this off as realistic, but it did inflate initial weapon creep and may have been a better addon for mid- to late-game. (This isn't my first Survival run, so I do realise this is often representative of Survival mode tactics/outcome as well. It's just geared up a level.)
To explain, right now handguns are superior to shotguns in every way. Same/similar damage but handguns shoot faster and farther (better accuracy). Previously it was range vs damage (by means of accuracy), giving you a reason to lug around a heavy shotgun for close encounters. Now the faster weapon wins, which really prises fully-automatics and miniguns <Shiver>.
Still, it's been fun playing with more scrappy handguns, which I've really enjoyed.
Edit: Wow, I haven't gotten a unique weapon yet, but I just realised I *do* have a weapon mod installed. Unique Uniques. I'm guessing this won't be compatible?
I haven't checked, it should be compatible though. The unique weapons just won't have the Gun Nut upgrades.
Part of what you describe was my intent: fast, dangerous gun battles, no bullet-sponge. Player tactics relying upon seeing enemies before they see you.
I didn't like how vanilla was balanced, with automatics doing less damage per shot than semi-automatics. They're the same cartridges, same velocity, after all, just shooting faster. The worst situation I've had in-game on survival was two supermutants with a minigun each, there was no way for me to engage them, the moment I left cover I was dead. I just ran away. I vanilla I never ran away from a fight, it felt like my character was indestructible, now I feel like a puny human.
I am experimenting with shotguns per your feedback. I tweaked the sawn-off double barrel to have a tighter spread. The clustering of pellets feels right with other barrel lengths, but the force behind each pellet is very small, they do not have as much impact as a traditional bullet. In-game this is basically garbage against most enemies. I want them to be at least viable, but in the spirit of this mod, the shotguns are supposed to be useless against anything with a dense surface. So I am trying to find a middle ground.
I am trying to limit upgrades to changes possible in real-life. With actual weapons such as PPK and AK-variants this is easy, but I have to imagine what is inside of combat rifle and assault rifle. laser and plasma is also tricky.
i tried to make it possible to have a true semi-automatic setting. What I mean is, for some weapons, you can do a combination of upgrades on different parts to make a gun that allows you to shoot single bullets, and also fully automatic. For example. with nuka world AK, give it automatic receiver, and replace bolt the bolt to the variant with locking sear. This is a slow automatic, so you can use precision shots and also burst.
It takes a moment to get used to the fact that not all gun-mods are available, for instance silencers for handmade pistols and rifles. I rather like that; it does give me a reason to upgrade without forcing me to due to mechanics/damage-increases. This has made for a rather enjoyable early-level game so far.
I've noticed a possible bug though. On my homemade handgun, sights don't line up. The iron sights seem okay-ish, but the homemade sights come nowhere close (at least at close-to-medium range). Is this because I have a long ranged barrel? It seems to line up in third-person but not in first-person, which has been troublesome for me. (I do like playing third-person so I've managed to get by okay. But in enclosed areas, or indoors as it were, I prefer first-person to avoid missing items and clues.)
You should be able to put a silencer on pipe bolt-action and pipe guns, but not pipe revolver.
Yeah, the "handmade sight," the thing that is a pipe with two screws in it, doesn't line up properly on all weapons. It's really noticeable on combat rifle. This is due to a misalignment of the meshes. Vertical axis is fine, but horizontal can be off.
The optic scopes are the same as vanilla. The scopes from 3dScopes framework should also be calibrated correctly... but I rarely use scopes, so it's very possible I overlooked something.
Is that sight issue in the vanilla game too? Been a while since I used the scrappy scopes. (A pity, I like the look of them.)
And I'm pretty sure I have no option for a silencer with the pistol too. I'll try a fresh one and see if I get different options. Speaking of options, the " Detroit" barrel has no information and weaker stats (weaker range, identical accuracy) than the bull barrel, on the handmade pistols. Curious what's the story with that one.
I finally saw a weapon with two sets of mods. It was a static bolt action rifle at the Bedford Station. I'm thinking that may be related to Nuka World, as I've seen this mentioned in the official feeds somewhere post-Nuka World on the vanilla game. I could be wrong.
It is an issue with me assigning the same mesh to different weapons, and they are not lined up correctly due to the weapon's top part being slightly higher or lower than the gun the sight originally came from.
"detroit" barrel has an aircooled shroud with exhaust vents. This keeps the barrel from melting (in your imagination) and also prevents the muzzle from swaying off-target. it is meant to be used on automatic weapons.
I had the duplicate mod bug before Nuka World so I don't think it's that. I've also noticed that when this bug appears, and you inspect the gun in inventory, the listing of mods is on the top of the screen instead of the bottom.
Finding I'm having the same issues with scopes as I was having with handmade sights. Tried using it on the most vanilla weapon I could (a .44 handgun with a regular barrel) and a x6 scope; the scope was way, way off. It may have been bullet drop-off, but I was pretty close (guessing 50-75m -- I had a 125m range). I had used sneak and then tried to line up a headshot at somewhat close range ... whiffed pretty hard. Follow up shots had the same effect. Switched to third person and ballparked every hit (hard to get headshots in third-person with the lowered accuracy of all the guns).
I like how brutal Gun Nut is, but I really dislike how much of a disconnect there is with accuracy. Pretty much the only way I can reliably headshot someone is by using VATs.
That's really strange, this does not happen to me. I can hit targets using scope, no problem. Are you using the "see-thru" scope or the one which blacks out the rest of the screen?
I was using the x4 scope (with no scope-affecting mods), but...
This may have been a mistake on my part. I was shooting through a window at a super-mutant and it didn't hit him -- he was shooting at me near the same spot so I never thought it was a fake window. It turns out there are some textures (which I previously hadn't noticed/realised were fake) that allow you to see visibly through but do not let you shoot through them. (Look like windows but are actually walls; I've noticed two more since this incident.) This could be a random high resolution texture mod I have installed, but it does not appear to be the fault of Gun Nut after all (to the best of my knowledge).
Thanks for taking the time to field so many questions, Mkborgelt!
Shooting through collision bugs me too, I know exactly what you mean. IMO if you can see through it, you should be able to shoot through it.
I made a 'target range' at a settlement, which is basically a lane with signs at various distances, and I try to shoot letters on the signs to test the accuracy of different weapons.
It is in vendor and loot levelled lists. So you will, occasionally, find it in a store or in a loot box. You cannot currently create it. It looks like economy wonderglue but has a red lid and a blank label.
I like the idea of the mod, though im worried about the execution. I wish that this mod will be able to fit with other mods that alter the game in a more general way and with other weapons mods. If every weapon is scaled up this much than you wouldnt be able to add new weapon mods because they will be too weak. Same with armors. Armor will barely be effective or useful. Thing is - if all weapons get an equal buff than the ratio between their damages is kinda the same, no? Than why not make small changes around existing values (lets say that the 5.56 values are your base and barely change) and this way weapon-mods will be, give or take,on the same scale? If you wish for bullets to kill fast than balance the weapons around their original values of damage (pistols do 20, shotguns 80, ARs 30 etc) and change thhe damage output and input. In my humble uneducated opinion this will increase compatibility with other mods. Making the game more "lethal" has been done enough already. Personally im using "better locational damage". What your mod seems to be bringing that is new is weapon modifications, and that's what's cool about it. On paper, at least.
In theory i would concentrate on making weapons balanced in a way that makes sense in terms of caliber and muzzle velocity etc but not change their damage too much. And also add all the great components that you are adding to add depth to the modding of fire arms. But leave the "realism" of time-to-kill to other mods. If you do this than more ppl will enjoy your mod because it will be more compatible with older, more popular mods.
And another thing- What i kinda dislike about the FO4 weapon modding is that certain mods are just better than others, so once you have level 4 perks you no longer use lower tier mods ever. They become useless. I kinda hope that some creative dude will make weapon mods balanced in a way that each have advantages and disadvantages. Like long barrels make tge weapon more accurate over long distances ( kit have better range) but also become heavier so it has poorer hip fire accuracy. Or bigger caluber increases damage but also recoil. Longer stocks decrease recoil but also hip fire accuracy. Compensators reduce recoil but also range. Then you have tier 1 compensators that reduce recoil AND range by a bit. And tier 4 compensators that reduce recoil and range by a lot. Or tier 1 silencers that reduce noise slightly and range (or armor penetration) slightly, tier 2 silencers that reduce both but more so, tier 3 that reduce noise by as much as tier 2 only it has better range and worse recoil.... So every new mod isnr that much better because many mods has a downside as well. And probably also include certain mods that are simply better because you are cleaning the gun and improving its mechanics.
I wish there was gun sway in every fire arm so one could make mods that increase weapon weight to also increase sway on these weapons, and putting shorter stocks and barrels would reduce sway.
Ok. Enough rambling from me. I hope to breast your thoughts about some of the things i have said
Damage is calculated based on the bullet calibre, meaning the actual projectile that shoots out of the gun. So any weapon added by a "nexus" mod which uses vanilla bullets, will be on-par with the vanilla weapons affected by this mod. For example DOOM's kalash is actually better than the Combat Rifle with this mod activated. (they both use the 5.56mm with damage set to 100).
The goal is to remove damage modification from the gun itself, and instead focus on things such as you say: Range, Bullet Spread, Velocity, Recoil, so on. The other damage mods that I have tried are multipliers, not as comprehensive. However, I have this problem: which is more lethal, a .45 auto or .44 magnum? .308 versus 7.62? so on...
Armor (especially power armor) is something I am working on, to compensate for the tremendous new effect. A .50 round (which I have renamed to .300 Winchester magnum) might be used to pierce T60 plates, but the suit should be well protected against smaller calibres with less velocity.
There is a surprising amount of variables involved with ballistics, at least 6 controlling what I previously thought of as "recoil." I am in the process of learning what they all do and how to make the best use of them in-game. Sway might actually be already in there, but so subtle we don't notice it.
As far as ranking the vanilla calibers in terms of "lethality," taking into account velocity, projectile weight and muzzle energy, in my opinion I would put them in the following order:
The parentheses are assumptions on my part, since it's possible the rounds denoted only by their diameter could be some other cartridge. This gets more complicated when we change the range, though, since a .44 Mag would be preferable to a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck at 50 yards, and a 5.56 may outperform the .45-70 at a few hundred, especially considering bullet drop if that's a factor in this mod. This also assumes they're all fired from comparable guns; a .45 Auto carbine or even a long-barreled pistol in that caliber could eek some more velocity from the round, possibly giving it an edge over a short-barreled 10mm. And of course, no idea where energy weapons or the minigun's mysterious "5mm" would fall in that hierarchy.
Anyway, hopefully that's some food for thought. I'll definitely be tracking this mod, I love the idea and it looks like you're doing a great job so far!
Thanks, that is pretty much what I was thinking too, except with 10mm and .45 swapped.
I renamed the "5mm" round to 7.62x51mm, which is (if I am correct) a military version of the .308 round, and used in actual miniguns. I have also renamed the Assault Rifle to Machine Gun, it now takes the 7.62. I read the 'Assault Rifle' was designed in the Bethesda studio as a firearm for soldiers wearing Power Armor, that is why it is so clunky and big, but they do a poor job explaining this in-game.
There is some kind of distance modifier variable that affects shotguns, I have yet to figure out its precise behavior. I really like the concept of "damage" being dependant on the bullet's trajectory.
There are already some really good mods out there that modify the in-flight properties of the bullet, so I will leave that alone for now.
I am going to work on energy weapons after nailing down the ballistics. Basically they have no recoil effect, very precise, sort of a "laser projector" similar to vanilla, obviously tweaked to be on-par. Weapon mods would be reformatted so less techno-babble meaningless names ("Gamma Photon Exciter") and more reasonable technologies that actually have to do with lasers.
Plasma, I have an idea to redo the entire weapon, making it into more of a flamethrower-type weapon, which uses canisters of compressed gas instead of "Plasma Cells." Something like the Gauss Rifle that is manufactured post-war and looks like it.
I am one of those people who use mods that turn fo4 into an action game more than an RPG in how it diffrerentiate enemies from each other. I dont like the idea of level 40 radroach have more health than level 2 raider. This is one of the reasons i like "better locational damage" - it makes all humans more resiliant than dogs and all dogs more resiliant than radroaches etc, and the difference in enemies health in low levels and high levels isnt very big and armor matters more. This way it removes bullet spunginess from enemies.
Iyou said you are aiming for realism and i feel like in order to achieve this with your mod than you will have to deal with how low level enemies differ from high level ones as well, change limb damage and damage to player, change perks that add damage output to the player (makes 0 sense) etc etc etc. If you are aiming for realism than there is a lot to do beyond weapons. And making bullets to 100dmg will get the player killed in 3 shots and nobody will enjoy that for very long, especially not is survival where you can lose 10 minutes of gameplay in one surprising burst of gunners fire...
This is another reason why i would hope that you will focus your effort around the weapons behavior while considering compatibility with other "game balancing" mods. Let THESE mods balance the game while your mod changes gun modifications. And as i said before - if it is at all possible - try and allow compatibility with other weapon- mods. I don't know how this can be possible, and it seems like it couldn't but it will be a shame to not be able to add more weapons to the game because of one mod, been if it's amazing
Again, i had lose change in me pocket to i have another 2cents just because i really want to see your mod get gud.
OK, it is no problem to make a version with Vanilla bullet damage.
Weapons from other plug-ins are totally compatible with this plug-in --- However, they will not have the new upgrades, nor the new categories (bolt, trigger, etc).
It is possible to make patches for standalone weapons. I am currently trying to patch more standalones to work with "Visual Reload."
As much as I love the .45 Auto and especially my Colt MKIV that shoots it, I believe the 10mm fires projectiles of similar weight but at higher velocities, meaning it produces more energy. Maybe one way it could be worked into the mod is having the .45 Auto perform better on soft or lightly armored targets, while the 10mm's slight edge in velocity would help it penetrate heavy armor more effectively? Again, just food for thought. I see how that might affect balancing though, since 10mm is more common in the early game.
You're right about the 7.62x51mm NATO, it isn't *precisely* identical to the .308 Winchester but they're close enough that they're interchangeable. The only issue I foresee with that is balancing due to a .308 rifle already being in the game; while you could have the hunting rifle and minigun fire the same ammunition (which would be realistic), it might be unbalanced if you have a huge pile of ammo for your minigun but it can also feed your hunting rifle forever. I'm not sure what the best way to handle that is, I'm just thinking out loud.
Also, just a cool thought I had - I think it's awesome that you're taking input from other Nexus members who either have thoughtful suggestions for gameplay mechanics, or are shooters and real-life gun enthusiasts with suggestions about the weapons, not just myself of course. With your work and vision plus a little feedback from the community I think this will turn out to be an excellent mod. Thank you for your dedication to making this game more fun for those of us who like some extra variety and realism with the guns, I really look forward to playing with your mod!
that makes sense about the 10mm. Also explains why the 10mm pistol is so unusual looking, it is a heavy gun to shoot high velocity large rounds.
I was going to make the 7.62 for Machine Gun and Minigun by default, and .308 for hunting rifle (it looks like a civilian type gun), with rechambering options to fit the different round. Rechambering upgrades are higher-tier Gun Nut mods due to the complexity and understanding of the mechanism required. I also want to make it so a rechambered barrel is required in addition to receiver.
I do want to have some kind of armor piercing calculation based on the bullet. Rifle rounds look like they would be AP while most(all) pistol bullets seem to have expanding point.
You're definitely on the right track with armor piercing capabilities. Most military rifle calibers (5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm, etc...) will go through soft armor like kevlar vests (or leather, in the wasteland) pretty easily. Most pistol ammunition can be loaded with a variety of projectiles, so they're not always hollow point, but still won't have nearly as much penetration as a rifle because of the larger diameter, higher weight and lower velocity.
So to figure out damage and armor resistance, I'd say rifle and pistol ammo might not need much difference in damage as long as rifles can "ignore" more armor.
Shotguns would just be plain TERRIBLE against armored opponents. 12ga buckshot and slugs are pretty devastating against any living thing, and should be able to ruin the day of even a yau-guai, but are both easily stopped by tier 1 and 2 body armor like kevlar vests or plate carriers. Game developers admit that the only reason they always make shotguns uber-weapons of mass destruction is because gamers think they are. But since they're great against unarmored opponents they're still great early-game weapons.
So my opinion is this:
- Give shotguns very high damage, but low penetration - Give pistols high damage but low range and low to medium penetration - Give rifles medium to high damage, with high range and high penetration
I don't know if you'd need to modify vanilla armor for these tweaks but you might not need to. Higher tier armor (like combat armor which, if it's anything like current military lvl 3 plates could easily stop a .308 point-blank) already has high damage resistance, so this might work well with vanilla armor.
Thanks. I think I am going to reduce the damage rating of each bullet, but keep the same "weighing," so vanilla armors aren't as useless with this mod installed. Also it seems like the popular demand.
Instead of rote number I am going to look into additional properties and damage threshhold.
Just a thought, not a suggestion but take it as whatever: Wouldn't gun lubricant be better as a consumable?
Like, using it increases fire rate and reload speed for a real time hour or something. Different quality of oils changes the potency, or even which aspect is affected.
So some home brew cooked up from scavenged materials may only increase reload speed, and may affect accuracy negatively.
But I suppose doing that would make it effect all weapons and not just the one in your hand, not without a script at least.
Just floating some ideas to you. You never know what you might like until you hear it.
Hmm yeah, that is interesting. I was hoping to keep everything wrapped up in the workbench... but I would like the ability to keep maintaining your gun over time, re-cleaning it and applying new oil, and so on.
One thing that's always frustrated me about games with "conditions" for weapons (like FO3, FO:NV) is that guns don't just break and fall apart after a few hundred rounds. But that being said, they DO need to be cleaned and lubricated to work properly.
I like the idea of needing oil (already a base component in game) to lubricate the guns, and this may work well if mkborgelt13 implements some kind of maintenance mechanic to the mod. Maybe a nice balance between maintenance and cleaning/lubricating would be to make a "Maintenance Kit" as a craftable item requiring oil for lubricant and some other items. Then give guns a condition meter, and as it goes down the maintenance kits would be consumed to restore that value?
Ingenious! But one thing I'm just trying to wrap my head around how the pistol (gunslinger) & rifle (rifleman) perks works with this mod (unless I missed it in you desc). Does damage increase as you take each rank so 5 ranks in those perks effectively doubles the damage?
Secondly, you may not want, or have two versions, where you don't change any of the vanilla naming conventions - it can cause conflicts with other mods but can be fixed with fo4edit patch if you know how to do that.
Finally, Talkietoaster, a long time modder, introduced a DT mod (from FNV) that adds "Damage Threashhold" (name of mod btw) that in the case of a power armor if DT is set to 20 then any gun has to at least do 20 damage before damage is applied. So if a gun (or in your case ammo) does 30 damage, only 10 is then applied to DR not 30. With 30% Armor Piercing, DT is in this example is lowered to 14. He even has a Fo4edit script to apply DT to all armors. Not sure if this what you may be looking for for balance in your response to topeira below. It's a modders resource just like see through scopes framework is.
Rifleman and Gunslinger are uchanged, and affect the guns as they do in vanilla.
Basically, each bullet, say .45, does the same damage number per bullet, whether it is fired from a pipe gun or a Thompson. Rounds/second is irrelevant - each round is just as damaging, does not matter how quickly they are fired.
I have altered the naming conventions in 2 ways: First, rename the base name of the weapon. Second, remove most of the cluttering prefixes and dynamic renaming rules. For example, the Plasma gun is simply called "Plasma." it is the grip which determines the name "Plasma Pistol" or "Plasma Rifle," as in vanilla. I have left this alone, but I have removed other rules such as "Compensated Calibrated Maximum Capacity Assault Rifle," for the obvious reasons.
Thanks for telling me about Damage Threshhold. This sounds useful. I am not really trying to "balance" the game -- what I consider balanced, most people would be frustrated with. The goal here is to make the guns feel "heavier" and less like a pop-gun. When NPCs start to shoot at you, the first thought should *not* be "yay, more free loot," but "Oh no, when's the last time I saved, I'd better find cover." If you have ever played the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games on Master or with "Misery," that is what I am going for, the loud, fast-paced, shoot-to-kill gun battles.
As a side-note, I have removed all Legendary effects from guns (there is no way a gun can magically shoot flaming bullets). Instead, I am experimenting with applying minor Legendary-like effects such as "Armor-piercing," "Bleeding," and "Crippling" to individual rounds.
Yep I can see hollow point doing bleeding & crippling damage versus armor piercing. Yet if you take away legendary effects, much of the game centers on legendary enemies dropping legendary type weapons (and armors). I would suggest keeping legendary effects - even if they make no sense to you - just my two cents. Perhaps keeping 2 versions with and without legendary effect changes.
Yes the instant naming conventions drive me crazy too so that's a welcome change.
If your goal is stalker might need a spawn more enemies mod.
I like the idea, it fit in nicely with the Minutemen Laser muskets, but please remember the barrel are hard part of gun to make, Pipe gun should name because that what they are a barrel made from a pipe, that is a smoothbore.
Their would some new weapons, from vaults (make the 10mm"s you pick up in 111, a life time friends) Brotherhood of steel and other major groups. also if player can find a boring machine for build for cutting rifle barrels would nice to.
Yes I am trying to make it so there is a difference between smoothbore and rifled barrels. And re-chambering also requires a re-chambered barrel, and only works for larger calibres (You can ream a pipe to fit a larger bullet, but you cannot shrink the diameter).
I like the boring machine. Maybe a drill bit for use on the drill press at the workbench.
66 comments
Edit: Altered the load order so Gun Nut loaded last and it seems to work now. (Although a lot of the options don't seem to change guns for the better; cleaning slides often degrades accuracy? Weird. Ex. breech gun.) Just to note, I have no other gun affecting mods installed.
The 1-damage thing is intentional. The *bullets* determine the damage value, not the gun itself. (Bullets have a damage rating, too. In vanilla, this is set to 0. I flipped it around).
The "accuracy" rating you see in-game is derived from a large amount of variables; recoil (of varying directions), spread, precision. It seems to do its own thing, but I can tell you none of the upgrades make your gun worse, that just wouldn't make sense
And certain mods definitely make the guns worse. Anything that lowers accuracy is significantly bad. I did something that allegedly increased fire rate and decreased accuracy (on a breech gun, double-barrel shotgun for you vanilla folks) and I couldn't hit anything with it, even at point-blank range. Even vats couldn't save me for hitting something. It was awful. I reverted the save, went back one mod that didn't touch accuracy, and the gun worked pretty good.
So yes, stats definitely change the gun. And some of the mods do lower accuracy, which is certainly detrimental. In this case, the breech gun has three barrel sizes, original, sawn off, and long. The second option decreases accuracy for better criticals, but it broke the gun and made it so inaccurate I couldn't hit beasties with it, because it lowered accuracy. This is partly because the breech gun starts off with a low accuracy and sites are one of the few things in the game that add accuracy, which most weapons lack under Gun Nut.
That said, I do like the replayability that Gun Nut adds to the game and I will continue experimenting with it. I appreciate the effort that has gone into the mod thus far, and look forward to seeing how things expand.
The damage rating you see in-game is from the bullets.
If you have some other mod which touches guns and/or ammunition, it will interfere with this mod, causing the condition you describe.
I have not touched the ballistics for combat shotgun or double barrel shotgun, only changed name/description. That said, I will look into this and see what I can find.
If you decide continue to use this mod, please be sure and update it too, as I add new versions, because I am constantly adjusting small things.
By chance, have you encountered a bug where some guns have redundant mod categories? Like two Receiver, 2 barrel, etc. This is happening for me on occasion and I am curious if it is something on my end, or with the mod in general.
In my fresh game, which I installed Gun Nut for, I haven't experienced anything hinky with double weapon mods. (Note: I haven't disabled this mod at all. If I do, I'll probably remove all weapon mods first.) I do find most of the weapon mod options to be rather limited, as there are clear winners, even moreso than vanilla. Also I found the weapon damage a little high for Survival, as now it's a matter of surprise -- whomever opens fire first wins (one or two bullets and one of us is dead); I don't even hear miniguns firing until Dogmeat is down and whimpering. I'm writing this off as realistic, but it did inflate initial weapon creep and may have been a better addon for mid- to late-game. (This isn't my first Survival run, so I do realise this is often representative of Survival mode tactics/outcome as well. It's just geared up a level.)
To explain, right now handguns are superior to shotguns in every way. Same/similar damage but handguns shoot faster and farther (better accuracy). Previously it was range vs damage (by means of accuracy), giving you a reason to lug around a heavy shotgun for close encounters. Now the faster weapon wins, which really prises fully-automatics and miniguns <Shiver>.
Still, it's been fun playing with more scrappy handguns, which I've really enjoyed.
Edit: Wow, I haven't gotten a unique weapon yet, but I just realised I *do* have a weapon mod installed. Unique Uniques. I'm guessing this won't be compatible?
Part of what you describe was my intent: fast, dangerous gun battles, no bullet-sponge. Player tactics relying upon seeing enemies before they see you.
I didn't like how vanilla was balanced, with automatics doing less damage per shot than semi-automatics. They're the same cartridges, same velocity, after all, just shooting faster.
The worst situation I've had in-game on survival was two supermutants with a minigun each, there was no way for me to engage them, the moment I left cover I was dead. I just ran away. I vanilla I never ran away from a fight, it felt like my character was indestructible, now I feel like a puny human.
I am experimenting with shotguns per your feedback. I tweaked the sawn-off double barrel to have a tighter spread. The clustering of pellets feels right with other barrel lengths, but the force behind each pellet is very small, they do not have as much impact as a traditional bullet. In-game this is basically garbage against most enemies. I want them to be at least viable, but in the spirit of this mod, the shotguns are supposed to be useless against anything with a dense surface. So I am trying to find a middle ground.
I am trying to limit upgrades to changes possible in real-life. With actual weapons such as PPK and AK-variants this is easy, but I have to imagine what is inside of combat rifle and assault rifle. laser and plasma is also tricky.
i tried to make it possible to have a true semi-automatic setting. What I mean is, for some weapons, you can do a combination of upgrades on different parts to make a gun that allows you to shoot single bullets, and also fully automatic. For example. with nuka world AK, give it automatic receiver, and replace bolt the bolt to the variant with locking sear. This is a slow automatic, so you can use precision shots and also burst.
It takes a moment to get used to the fact that not all gun-mods are available, for instance silencers for handmade pistols and rifles. I rather like that; it does give me a reason to upgrade without forcing me to due to mechanics/damage-increases. This has made for a rather enjoyable early-level game so far.
I've noticed a possible bug though. On my homemade handgun, sights don't line up. The iron sights seem okay-ish, but the homemade sights come nowhere close (at least at close-to-medium range). Is this because I have a long ranged barrel? It seems to line up in third-person but not in first-person, which has been troublesome for me. (I do like playing third-person so I've managed to get by okay. But in enclosed areas, or indoors as it were, I prefer first-person to avoid missing items and clues.)
You should be able to put a silencer on pipe bolt-action and pipe guns, but not pipe revolver.
Yeah, the "handmade sight," the thing that is a pipe with two screws in it, doesn't line up properly on all weapons. It's really noticeable on combat rifle. This is due to a misalignment of the meshes. Vertical axis is fine, but horizontal can be off.
The optic scopes are the same as vanilla. The scopes from 3dScopes framework should also be calibrated correctly... but I rarely use scopes, so it's very possible I overlooked something.
And I'm pretty sure I have no option for a silencer with the pistol too. I'll try a fresh one and see if I get different options. Speaking of options, the " Detroit" barrel has no information and weaker stats (weaker range, identical accuracy) than the bull barrel, on the handmade pistols. Curious what's the story with that one.
I finally saw a weapon with two sets of mods. It was a static bolt action rifle at the Bedford Station. I'm thinking that may be related to Nuka World, as I've seen this mentioned in the official feeds somewhere post-Nuka World on the vanilla game. I could be wrong.
"detroit" barrel has an aircooled shroud with exhaust vents. This keeps the barrel from melting (in your imagination) and also prevents the muzzle from swaying off-target. it is meant to be used on automatic weapons.
I had the duplicate mod bug before Nuka World so I don't think it's that. I've also noticed that when this bug appears, and you inspect the gun in inventory, the listing of mods is on the top of the screen instead of the bottom.
I like how brutal Gun Nut is, but I really dislike how much of a disconnect there is with accuracy. Pretty much the only way I can reliably headshot someone is by using VATs.
Are you using the "see-thru" scope or the one which blacks out the rest of the screen?
This may have been a mistake on my part. I was shooting through a window at a super-mutant and it didn't hit him -- he was shooting at me near the same spot so I never thought it was a fake window. It turns out there are some textures (which I previously hadn't noticed/realised were fake) that allow you to see visibly through but do not let you shoot through them. (Look like windows but are actually walls; I've noticed two more since this incident.) This could be a random high resolution texture mod I have installed, but it does not appear to be the fault of Gun Nut after all (to the best of my knowledge).
Thanks for taking the time to field so many questions, Mkborgelt!
Shooting through collision bugs me too, I know exactly what you mean. IMO if you can see through it, you should be able to shoot through it.
I made a 'target range' at a settlement, which is basically a lane with signs at various distances, and I try to shoot letters on the signs to test the accuracy of different weapons.
I wish that this mod will be able to fit with other mods that alter the game in a more general way and with other weapons mods.
If every weapon is scaled up this much than you wouldnt be able to add new weapon mods because they will be too weak. Same with armors. Armor will barely be effective or useful.
Thing is - if all weapons get an equal buff than the ratio between their damages is kinda the same, no?
Than why not make small changes around existing values (lets say that the 5.56 values are your base and barely change) and this way weapon-mods will be, give or take,on the same scale? If you wish for bullets to kill fast than balance the weapons around their original values of damage (pistols do 20, shotguns 80, ARs 30 etc) and change thhe damage output and input. In my humble uneducated opinion this will increase compatibility with other mods.
Making the game more "lethal" has been done enough already. Personally im using "better locational damage".
What your mod seems to be bringing that is new is weapon modifications, and that's what's cool about it. On paper, at least.
In theory i would concentrate on making weapons balanced in a way that makes sense in terms of caliber and muzzle velocity etc but not change their damage too much. And also add all the great components that you are adding to add depth to the modding of fire arms. But leave the "realism" of time-to-kill to other mods.
If you do this than more ppl will enjoy your mod because it will be more compatible with older, more popular mods.
And another thing-
What i kinda dislike about the FO4 weapon modding is that certain mods are just better than others, so once you have level 4 perks you no longer use lower tier mods ever. They become useless.
I kinda hope that some creative dude will make weapon mods balanced in a way that each have advantages and disadvantages. Like long barrels make tge weapon more accurate over long distances ( kit have better range) but also become heavier so it has poorer hip fire accuracy. Or bigger caluber increases damage but also recoil. Longer stocks decrease recoil but also hip fire accuracy. Compensators reduce recoil but also range.
Then you have tier 1 compensators that reduce recoil AND range by a bit. And tier 4 compensators that reduce recoil and range by a lot.
Or tier 1 silencers that reduce noise slightly and range (or armor penetration) slightly, tier 2 silencers that reduce both but more so, tier 3 that reduce noise by as much as tier 2 only it has better range and worse recoil....
So every new mod isnr that much better because many mods has a downside as well.
And probably also include certain mods that are simply better because you are cleaning the gun and improving its mechanics.
I wish there was gun sway in every fire arm so one could make mods that increase weapon weight to also increase sway on these weapons, and putting shorter stocks and barrels would reduce sway.
Ok. Enough rambling from me. I hope to breast your thoughts about some of the things i have said
I wish you the best of luck!
Damage is calculated based on the bullet calibre, meaning the actual projectile that shoots out of the gun.
So any weapon added by a "nexus" mod which uses vanilla bullets, will be on-par with the vanilla weapons affected by this mod. For example DOOM's kalash is actually better than the Combat Rifle with this mod activated. (they both use the 5.56mm with damage set to 100).
The goal is to remove damage modification from the gun itself, and instead focus on things such as you say: Range, Bullet Spread, Velocity, Recoil, so on.
The other damage mods that I have tried are multipliers, not as comprehensive. However, I have this problem: which is more lethal, a .45 auto or .44 magnum? .308 versus 7.62? so on...
Armor (especially power armor) is something I am working on, to compensate for the tremendous new effect. A .50 round (which I have renamed to .300 Winchester magnum) might be used to pierce T60 plates, but the suit should be well protected against smaller calibres with less velocity.
There is a surprising amount of variables involved with ballistics, at least 6 controlling what I previously thought of as "recoil." I am in the process of learning what they all do and how to make the best use of them in-game. Sway might actually be already in there, but so subtle we don't notice it.
.38 (Special) < .45 (Auto) < 10mm < .44 (Magnum) < 12 Ga = 5.56mm < .45-70 Gov't < .308 Win < .50 (BMG)
The parentheses are assumptions on my part, since it's possible the rounds denoted only by their diameter could be some other cartridge. This gets more complicated when we change the range, though, since a .44 Mag would be preferable to a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck at 50 yards, and a 5.56 may outperform the .45-70 at a few hundred, especially considering bullet drop if that's a factor in this mod. This also assumes they're all fired from comparable guns; a .45 Auto carbine or even a long-barreled pistol in that caliber could eek some more velocity from the round, possibly giving it an edge over a short-barreled 10mm. And of course, no idea where energy weapons or the minigun's mysterious "5mm" would fall in that hierarchy.
Anyway, hopefully that's some food for thought. I'll definitely be tracking this mod, I love the idea and it looks like you're doing a great job so far!
I renamed the "5mm" round to 7.62x51mm, which is (if I am correct) a military version of the .308 round, and used in actual miniguns. I have also renamed the Assault Rifle to Machine Gun, it now takes the 7.62. I read the 'Assault Rifle' was designed in the Bethesda studio as a firearm for soldiers wearing Power Armor, that is why it is so clunky and big, but they do a poor job explaining this in-game.
There is some kind of distance modifier variable that affects shotguns, I have yet to figure out its precise behavior. I really like the concept of "damage" being dependant on the bullet's trajectory.
There are already some really good mods out there that modify the in-flight properties of the bullet, so I will leave that alone for now.
I am going to work on energy weapons after nailing down the ballistics. Basically they have no recoil effect, very precise, sort of a "laser projector" similar to vanilla, obviously tweaked to be on-par. Weapon mods would be reformatted so less techno-babble meaningless names ("Gamma Photon Exciter") and more reasonable technologies that actually have to do with lasers.
Plasma, I have an idea to redo the entire weapon, making it into more of a flamethrower-type weapon, which uses canisters of compressed gas instead of "Plasma Cells." Something like the Gauss Rifle that is manufactured post-war and looks like it.
Iyou said you are aiming for realism and i feel like in order to achieve this with your mod than you will have to deal with how low level enemies differ from high level ones as well, change limb damage and damage to player, change perks that add damage output to the player (makes 0 sense) etc etc etc.
If you are aiming for realism than there is a lot to do beyond weapons. And making bullets to 100dmg will get the player killed in 3 shots and nobody will enjoy that for very long, especially not is survival where you can lose 10 minutes of gameplay in one surprising burst of gunners fire...
This is another reason why i would hope that you will focus your effort around the weapons behavior while considering compatibility with other "game balancing" mods. Let THESE mods balance the game while your mod changes gun modifications.
And as i said before - if it is at all possible - try and allow compatibility with other weapon- mods. I don't know how this can be possible, and it seems like it couldn't but it will be a shame to not be able to add more weapons to the game because of one mod, been if it's amazing
Again, i had lose change in me pocket to i have another 2cents
Weapons from other plug-ins are totally compatible with this plug-in --- However, they will not have the new upgrades, nor the new categories (bolt, trigger, etc).
It is possible to make patches for standalone weapons. I am currently trying to patch more standalones to work with "Visual Reload."
You're right about the 7.62x51mm NATO, it isn't *precisely* identical to the .308 Winchester but they're close enough that they're interchangeable. The only issue I foresee with that is balancing due to a .308 rifle already being in the game; while you could have the hunting rifle and minigun fire the same ammunition (which would be realistic), it might be unbalanced if you have a huge pile of ammo for your minigun but it can also feed your hunting rifle forever. I'm not sure what the best way to handle that is, I'm just thinking out loud.
Also, just a cool thought I had - I think it's awesome that you're taking input from other Nexus members who either have thoughtful suggestions for gameplay mechanics, or are shooters and real-life gun enthusiasts with suggestions about the weapons, not just myself of course. With your work and vision plus a little feedback from the community I think this will turn out to be an excellent mod. Thank you for your dedication to making this game more fun for those of us who like some extra variety and realism with the guns, I really look forward to playing with your mod!
that makes sense about the 10mm. Also explains why the 10mm pistol is so unusual looking, it is a heavy gun to shoot high velocity large rounds.
I was going to make the 7.62 for Machine Gun and Minigun by default, and .308 for hunting rifle (it looks like a civilian type gun), with rechambering options to fit the different round. Rechambering upgrades are higher-tier Gun Nut mods due to the complexity and understanding of the mechanism required. I also want to make it so a rechambered barrel is required in addition to receiver.
I do want to have some kind of armor piercing calculation based on the bullet. Rifle rounds look like they would be AP while most(all) pistol bullets seem to have expanding point.
So to figure out damage and armor resistance, I'd say rifle and pistol ammo might not need much difference in damage as long as rifles can "ignore" more armor.
Shotguns would just be plain TERRIBLE against armored opponents. 12ga buckshot and slugs are pretty devastating against any living thing, and should be able to ruin the day of even a yau-guai, but are both easily stopped by tier 1 and 2 body armor like kevlar vests or plate carriers. Game developers admit that the only reason they always make shotguns uber-weapons of mass destruction is because gamers think they are. But since they're great against unarmored opponents they're still great early-game weapons.
So my opinion is this:
- Give shotguns very high damage, but low penetration
- Give pistols high damage but low range and low to medium penetration
- Give rifles medium to high damage, with high range and high penetration
I don't know if you'd need to modify vanilla armor for these tweaks but you might not need to. Higher tier armor (like combat armor which, if it's anything like current military lvl 3 plates could easily stop a .308 point-blank) already has high damage resistance, so this might work well with vanilla armor.
Instead of rote number I am going to look into additional properties and damage threshhold.
Like, using it increases fire rate and reload speed for a real time hour or something. Different quality of oils changes the potency, or even which aspect is affected.
So some home brew cooked up from scavenged materials may only increase reload speed, and may affect accuracy negatively.
But I suppose doing that would make it effect all weapons and not just the one in your hand, not without a script at least.
Just floating some ideas to you. You never know what you might like until you hear it.
I like the idea of needing oil (already a base component in game) to lubricate the guns, and this may work well if mkborgelt13 implements some kind of maintenance mechanic to the mod. Maybe a nice balance between maintenance and cleaning/lubricating would be to make a "Maintenance Kit" as a craftable item requiring oil for lubricant and some other items. Then give guns a condition meter, and as it goes down the maintenance kits would be consumed to restore that value?
Secondly, you may not want, or have two versions, where you don't change any of the vanilla naming conventions - it can cause conflicts with other mods but can be fixed with fo4edit patch if you know how to do that.
Finally, Talkietoaster, a long time modder, introduced a DT mod (from FNV) that adds "Damage Threashhold" (name of mod btw) that in the case of a power armor if DT is set to 20 then any gun has to at least do 20 damage before damage is applied. So if a gun (or in your case ammo) does 30 damage, only 10 is then applied to DR not 30. With 30% Armor Piercing, DT is in this example is lowered to 14. He even has a Fo4edit script to apply DT to all armors. Not sure if this what you may be looking for for balance in your response to topeira below. It's a modders resource just like see through scopes framework is.
Really like this logic of this mod - thanks!
Rifleman and Gunslinger are uchanged, and affect the guns as they do in vanilla.
Basically, each bullet, say .45, does the same damage number per bullet, whether it is fired from a pipe gun or a Thompson. Rounds/second is irrelevant - each round is just as damaging, does not matter how quickly they are fired.
I have altered the naming conventions in 2 ways: First, rename the base name of the weapon. Second, remove most of the cluttering prefixes and dynamic renaming rules. For example, the Plasma gun is simply called "Plasma." it is the grip which determines the name "Plasma Pistol" or "Plasma Rifle," as in vanilla. I have left this alone, but I have removed other rules such as "Compensated Calibrated Maximum Capacity Assault Rifle," for the obvious reasons.
Thanks for telling me about Damage Threshhold. This sounds useful. I am not really trying to "balance" the game -- what I consider balanced, most people would be frustrated with. The goal here is to make the guns feel "heavier" and less like a pop-gun. When NPCs start to shoot at you, the first thought should *not* be "yay, more free loot," but "Oh no, when's the last time I saved, I'd better find cover."
If you have ever played the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games on Master or with "Misery," that is what I am going for, the loud, fast-paced, shoot-to-kill gun battles.
As a side-note, I have removed all Legendary effects from guns (there is no way a gun can magically shoot flaming bullets). Instead, I am experimenting with applying minor Legendary-like effects such as "Armor-piercing," "Bleeding," and "Crippling" to individual rounds.
Yes the instant naming conventions drive me crazy too so that's a welcome change.
If your goal is stalker might need a spawn more enemies mod.
Thank you
Their would some new weapons, from vaults (make the 10mm"s you pick up in 111, a life time friends) Brotherhood of steel and other major groups. also if player can find a boring machine for build for cutting rifle barrels would nice to.
I like the boring machine. Maybe a drill bit for use on the drill press at the workbench.