I have the patch and when I drop a bed outdoor the settler can go sleep, when I drop a bed in many places indoor, the settlers won't go sleep. I think the navmeshes has not really been fixed in the patch.
I've actually updated that mod, and it's now got proper navmesh (and we fixed the spawning issue too, so they won't spawn down there, but they can now go up and down the stairs if they wish).
Once we fixed the navmesh and spawn point, it kinda felt like a waste of the work I'd done originally to just delete the dock and boat, so I left it in as scenery.
It might be different with this CK, but traditionally it has proven to be a bad idea to actually delete navmesh. Like "crash your game and bork your saves" bad. I think the issue is that deleted navmesh will not be restored to the world if the mod that removes it is uninstalled, and since it is expected by the engine, not finding it gives it an aneurysm. I feel like I read somewhere that navmeshes are related to (or maybe are) persistent references, but I'm not sure. I just know that "never delete navmesh" has been a mantra since Oblivion.
Like I said, the new CK may well be different, but if people start having issues, hopefully knowing this will be helpful.
I never knew that, but I just used the mod, saved, uninstalled the mod, and reloaded the save, and had no crash returning to croup manor. It may not be a problem now because settlement building is all about adding and removing new NAV Meshes? but thank you fro bringing it up.
That's one reason, cause if not, how would settlers be able to move to places in the Lair or use objects that have been placed on floor tiles ?!
Besides that @xaosbob: everybody installing a mod should be aware, that if he/she removes the mod later, might be encountering problems - anybody that does not keep this in mind, doesn't deserver anything less than at least CTDs.
If you buy a shirt and cut off the sleeves, you can't expect the shirt to look and function the same just by laying the cut-off piece next to the shirt.
xaosbob is right about not deleting navmeshes, at least in previous games, but it's not related to uninstalling the mod.
In Skyrim the problem occurs when another mod tries to alter the same navmesh that your mod has deleted, the engine just can't handle it and you get a CTD. This happens with all objects deleted from the world, but unlike navmeshes other objects can be undeleted and disabled by cleaning the mod in TES5Edit. TES5Edit unfortunately cannot undelete navmeshes.
Whether Bethesda has rectified the issue in the Fallout 4 engine, I don't know.
So far everything seems stable, and I don't think any other mods modify that NAVMesh yet. I will keep working with the CK and croup manor to see if i can find another way to fix it that doesn't involve adding in buildings, or stairs to let them walk up again. Maybe I will find a fix that doesn't screw with the NAVMesh.
Another option would be to simply moved the navmesh around a bit. You could very gently tighten up the navmesh around the effected area so that it does not overlap the cliff. Its allot more work, but it may be an option. I also think that Bethesda has taken all of this into account in the "New Creation Engine". As stated, with all the adding of and removing of other navmeshes, even if they are baked into the object being placed, it would leave lets call it a shadow of that navmesh behind. It doesn't seem to be causing an issue so far. Also since they have fixed the scripting issue that we had in Skyrim, it may well also carry over to things like the navmesh. Eventually the big heavy mod makers that make the really big mods and world-spaces will chime in on the whole navmesh issue and if it is safe to remove them or not.
The main issue I think you are going to have it that there are several "Croup Manor" mods out that change the zone, and they most likely are inheriting the original navmesh for the site. So if anyone uses one of those mods and have it loaded after your mod they will be right back to having NPCs down on the cliff again. So you might want to check a few of those mods against your mod and play with the load order and see if they in fact return the navmesh to a normal state. The one thing you need to post in your description is to keep this loaded after any and all mods that do anything to the "Croup Manor" site just to make sure your mod is over-writing any changes that they made to the site. But you also have to make sure that your mod is not returning things to normal and undoing what the other mod is trying to do. You can see how complex this can get. You will have to probably also make patches for various other "Croup Manor" mods and offer to pass them along to those mod makers. It is just the way its done. Hopefully it wont scare you off. Welcome to the marvelous world of modding on the Creation Engine.
That's what I may do, moving the meshes around a bit, just to help stabilize it. As for mod compatibility, If you load it after most Croup Manor mods it should work fine, But I will append the description about the load order issue. I also sent the fix to the people who made Rebuilt Croup Manor, so that they could add it to there mod. But they are also looking for there own fix atm.
I Attempted to simply move the NAVMesh away from the shore, and off of the rock behind croup Manor. NPC would still spawn on the NAVMesh in the water, where i moved it to, in the water. I even changed the land NAVMesh to water, and they still spawned in there, so for now i see the only solution is to delete them.
On a side note, I also tried ruining two versions of the mod. The first one had the deleted NAVMesh, and the second had the moved ones. There was no crash or conflict that I saw, the cell just used the navmesh of what ever esp was loaded second.
I haven't played around with the CK yet, but would it be possible to shrink down the offending Navmesh as much as possible and then simply move it up on to the cliffs?
I haven't tried this yet but I have built a way up that settlers do use quite well to get out of there.
Anybody there doesn't even want to be around water like all day, this just happens at night when they should be sleeping, making beds for them in or out of boundaries does not make them go to sleep, they have the proper navigation systems to do what they want so I'm partially convinced this has to do with sleep somehow rather than just a faulty navmesh.
Actually that probably wouldn't help one bit. The settlers spawning in the water would still spawn in the water, and if a settler is trying to go to a specific place and the path is somehow blocked/there is no path or possible way to get to where they want to go they will teleport there instead. So while it sounds good in theory, and would probably look good in the CK, I doubt it'd stop the AI from being suicidally stupid.
Do you plan on doing more settlement navmesh adjustments? I know Hangman's Alley is missing navmesh in the NE corner of the settlement (the part that faces out to the shore). I would be eternally grateful. Also, this mod is great! I love not having my settlers do random cliff dives into the ocean.
This is something that has bugged me for a while and I figured it had to be the navmesh. I was going to do this myself, but thanks for beating me to it. Gonna give it a try later in my new play through.
23 comments
Croup Manor Navmesh and Pathfinding Fix
Comparing to lapdragon's version, mine has a more extensive remodel of the navmesh and no added objects.
http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/9768/?
Once we fixed the navmesh and spawn point, it kinda felt like a waste of the work I'd done originally to just delete the dock and boat, so I left it in as scenery.
Like I said, the new CK may well be different, but if people start having issues, hopefully knowing this will be helpful.
Besides that @xaosbob: everybody installing a mod should be aware, that if he/she removes the mod later, might be encountering problems - anybody that does not keep this in mind, doesn't deserver anything less than at least CTDs.
If you buy a shirt and cut off the sleeves, you can't expect the shirt to look and function the same just by laying the cut-off piece next to the shirt.
In Skyrim the problem occurs when another mod tries to alter the same navmesh that your mod has deleted, the engine just can't handle it and you get a CTD. This happens with all objects deleted from the world, but unlike navmeshes other objects can be undeleted and disabled by cleaning the mod in TES5Edit. TES5Edit unfortunately cannot undelete navmeshes.
Whether Bethesda has rectified the issue in the Fallout 4 engine, I don't know.
@ Eysenbeiss: I absolutely agree, and the shirt analogy is perfect.
@ Old Nick: YES. Once you explained again about UDR not working with navmesh, it clicked in my head. Thank you.
I also think that Bethesda has taken all of this into account in the "New Creation Engine". As stated, with all the adding of and removing of other navmeshes, even if they are baked into the object being placed, it would leave lets call it a shadow of that navmesh behind. It doesn't seem to be causing an issue so far. Also since they have fixed the scripting issue that we had in Skyrim, it may well also carry over to things like the navmesh. Eventually the big heavy mod makers that make the really big mods and world-spaces will chime in on the whole navmesh issue and if it is safe to remove them or not.
The main issue I think you are going to have it that there are several "Croup Manor" mods out that change the zone, and they most likely are inheriting the original navmesh for the site. So if anyone uses one of those mods and have it loaded after your mod they will be right back to having NPCs down on the cliff again. So you might want to check a few of those mods against your mod and play with the load order and see if they in fact return the navmesh to a normal state. The one thing you need to post in your description is to keep this loaded after any and all mods that do anything to the "Croup Manor" site just to make sure your mod is over-writing any changes that they made to the site. But you also have to make sure that your mod is not returning things to normal and undoing what the other mod is trying to do. You can see how complex this can get. You will have to probably also make patches for various other "Croup Manor" mods and offer to pass them along to those mod makers. It is just the way its done. Hopefully it wont scare you off. Welcome to the marvelous world of modding on the Creation Engine.
On a side note, I also tried ruining two versions of the mod. The first one had the deleted NAVMesh, and the second had the moved ones. There was no crash or conflict that I saw, the cell just used the navmesh of what ever esp was loaded second.
Anybody there doesn't even want to be around water like all day, this just happens at night when they should be sleeping, making beds for them in or out of boundaries does not make them go to sleep, they have the proper navigation systems to do what they want so I'm partially convinced this has to do with sleep somehow rather than just a faulty navmesh.