Idk if mod author still keeps track of this mod or not. Idk if this is a bug or not or maybe a mod conflict. tho i dont have any mods that mess with stealth or stealth perks in any way shape or form. But i still get a sneak attack on my first hit? or is this intentional? Maybe i miss read something. Anyone else have this?
Edit: I figured it out. the GCM had sneak attacks still set to default values of 2 after changing them to 1 it did what this mod does. with this changing calmex and the perks sneak attacks are gone from my game now. Hope this helps anyone who might of been confused too.
I came to the posts section just after installing this mod, and this comment saved me from being confused by warning me about this issue with GCM before it even happened. Thank you very much for this, people that post their issues and then come back to tell others how they fixed it are the real MVPs.
When I use the mod strange things happen. The mobs don't seem to recognise the attack as an attack unless you are very near, you can shoot them several times.
is it possible to have an alternate version of the sandman perk so that instead of giving VATS bonus, it would just give a stackable increase to crits when using silenced weapons on unaware targets? (so the crit chance, but not crit damage, stacks with ninja IF player used a silenced weapon)
i'm hoping there would be this option for people who NEVER uses VATS mode, but still want some useful effects from sandman perk.
When I read the description the first time I thought "YOU DID WHAT?!", but having now tried it, I'm definitely on board with this. Sneak attack builds have always been OP, and in FO4 even more so. And it's easier than ever considering that you can even score a sneak attack bonus on an enemy that's entered [caution]. Sneak is so OP that it's broken, especially when combined with melee. Read this guide's conclusions, for some examples of how insane it can get: https://www.reddit.com/r/fo4/comments/3u2ntt/melee_damagestrength_optimization_capable_of_90k/
It seems like half of the perk chart is dedicated to increasing damage, sneak attack damage and/or critical damage to insane heights, and most of it is only necessary to compensate for the artificial difficulty inflicted on us in other ways, like the HP bloat on 'level-with-player' types of enemies, and the lopsided damage multipliers on high difficulties (The new Survival mode is using 0.75x outgoing, 4x incoming now...). Eventually, all it does is allow the player to curb-stomp everything in the game except for the occasional extra absorbent bullet sponge, which is only a challenge because of ever-inflating HP. All that mess does is encourage min-maxing, which I find very uninspiring.
Since I use other mods to mitigate some of the false difficulty I mentioned (1x damage both ways, Sensible NPC Health to reduce sponginess at the high end), sneak attack damage was becoming even more overpowered than before, which is where your mod came in. I think you did a good job of making the sneak multiplier perks still useful in more interesting and balanced ways. I don't really have an opinion about the Mister Sandman perk, because even as a melee type on my current run, I still use guns occasionally and the bonus accuracy still comes in handy often enough. I only took the perk for the sleep kills anyway.
I agree with most of your post but your numbers for the updated survival damage multiplier are incorrect. Outgoing multiplier is 1.5x with the ability to get up to 2x with max adrenaline. Incoming multiplier is 2x (as it has been since launch).
Looks good but for us that never uses VATS the sandman perk is getting useless, can you make a version without the sandman perk changes or can i just remove them my self with FO4 Edit?
Also why is the EDID...fDamageSneakAttackMult...in the mod when it has the same value as vanilla?
Because if it is in there, other mods which may have edited it, will get overwritten. By not having it in there, it could leave open a path for mod conflicts.
Either way, Yes, you could remove the sandman perks if you wanted. I have actually been trying to think of a different bonus. If you have any ideas, I would be glad to make changes to Sandman.
I sincerely doubt that it's going to matter with some of those sneak builds. Who cares about ammo weight and hunger when you can 10x Sneak attack a deathclaw for instant kills.
To be fair, . when you hit something with a 50 cal from a rifle, It shouldn't live no matter what unless it is something akin to a tank. You can't make Fallout 4's combat "realistic" because the entire RPG damage element makes it all go out the window.
True, but that is up to other mods to change damage values on guns to be realistic. I suppose this mod is only really useful if you are already using difficulty tweaking mods like I am. Because damage values in my game already feel 'right' as they can be, Sneak attack damage is just superfluous.
Nah, I get it, I know some people like playing more of a spy featured stealth of gameplay or maybe you like alerting the enemy near you after you just snuck up right next to them to hit'em, but hey it's your way you play so that's your thing.
It just seems like wouldn't that be the whole point of sneaking up to an enemy to deal a great deal of damage to them without them turning around and clobbering you till you're just a puddle.
Maybe a neat "incapacitate" feature would work better so you won't be afraid of killing people and instead you'll just knock them out for awhile so you can get past them?
I'm sure there's a point to why you wouldn't want to kill your enemy with a really good sneak attack, but hey everyone wants something I guess.
For me I still love the sneak attack damage, but in vanilla sometimes it doesn't do enough damage at the moment unless you got all your perks together.
THOUGH, I would appreciate maybe a "fear tactic" version of stealth where when you do use maybe some ranged weaponry or something to alert your enemy and maybe maim your foe you'd end up scaring them enough to accidently make them hurt themself in some manor or possibly to lure them into some trap.
Either way it sounds nice, but I'm no fan of this kinda thing.
There is a reason I went for critical damage, armor penetration, and accuracy. RL, your knife will not suddenly have more force because you are sneaky. It is just going to more easily get past someone's defenses. Hat is what this mod represents.
While it's true your knife wont have more force because you are sneaky, it would allow you to insert said knife diagonally across the neck, just behind the clavicle and sever the carotid artery, the jugular vein and the windpipe, resulting in nearly instant death to any humanoid target regardless of the strength of the attacker or the force behind the blow. I always felt like that was the logic that melee sneak attack damage comes from. Would be nice if there was a proper animation to represent that.
I mean to each their own, whatever makes you enjoy your game more right? Personally I like the idea that if you get close enough to an enemy undetected, then killing them instantly is easy enough. Granted that logic doesn't really transfer to Deathclaws.
That would be an instant kill mechanic then, not a damage mechanic. In your example, the other guy does not get to then pump you full of lead with his last remaining sliver of health, if he had any left at all. I fully support quiet takedown mechanics, but Fallout 4 has 0 effort given to the attack.
There's no positioning, even less if you have Blitz. You can be god knows how far away, suddenly teleport behind the guy, and 10x sneak attack like it's nothing, over... and over... and over again. And yes, you can do it to Deathclaws even, or robots, or freaking optimus, I mean liberty prime.
And... that is why I just decided to take it away. I would be all for once the GECK is out, adding an activator that if you get RIGHT behind someone, legit, not with Blitz, you could insta kill them as if they were sleeping.
We're just not there yet.
Edit: Actually, I might be able to pull that off. Give me some time on that.
That already exists in the game, Sandman rank 1 makes any damage you deal to a sleeping target practically one-shot kill them. Not much of a leap from there to multiplying damage by a large amount when the player is completely undetected, but it could potentially be "abused" by Aqua Boy/Girl.
26 comments
Edit: I figured it out. the GCM had sneak attacks still set to default values of 2 after changing them to 1 it did what this mod does. with this changing calmex and the perks sneak attacks are gone from my game now. Hope this helps anyone who might of been confused too.
i'm hoping there would be this option for people who NEVER uses VATS mode, but still want some useful effects from sandman perk.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fo4/comments/3u2ntt/melee_damagestrength_optimization_capable_of_90k/
It seems like half of the perk chart is dedicated to increasing damage, sneak attack damage and/or critical damage to insane heights, and most of it is only necessary to compensate for the artificial difficulty inflicted on us in other ways, like the HP bloat on 'level-with-player' types of enemies, and the lopsided damage multipliers on high difficulties (The new Survival mode is using 0.75x outgoing, 4x incoming now...). Eventually, all it does is allow the player to curb-stomp everything in the game except for the occasional extra absorbent bullet sponge, which is only a challenge because of ever-inflating HP. All that mess does is encourage min-maxing, which I find very uninspiring.
Since I use other mods to mitigate some of the false difficulty I mentioned (1x damage both ways, Sensible NPC Health to reduce sponginess at the high end), sneak attack damage was becoming even more overpowered than before, which is where your mod came in. I think you did a good job of making the sneak multiplier perks still useful in more interesting and balanced ways. I don't really have an opinion about the Mister Sandman perk, because even as a melee type on my current run, I still use guns occasionally and the bonus accuracy still comes in handy often enough. I only took the perk for the sleep kills anyway.
You can see this in the CK and in FO4Edit.
Also why is the EDID...fDamageSneakAttackMult...in the mod when it has the same value as vanilla?
Either way, Yes, you could remove the sandman perks if you wanted. I have actually been trying to think of a different bonus. If you have any ideas, I would be glad to make changes to Sandman.
It just seems like wouldn't that be the whole point of sneaking up to an enemy to deal a great deal of damage to them without them turning around and clobbering you till you're just a puddle.
Maybe a neat "incapacitate" feature would work better so you won't be afraid of killing people and instead you'll just knock them out for awhile so you can get past them?
I'm sure there's a point to why you wouldn't want to kill your enemy with a really good sneak attack, but hey everyone wants something I guess.
For me I still love the sneak attack damage, but in vanilla sometimes it doesn't do enough damage at the moment unless you got all your perks together.
THOUGH, I would appreciate maybe a "fear tactic" version of stealth where when you do use maybe some ranged weaponry or something to alert your enemy and maybe maim your foe you'd end up scaring them enough to accidently make them hurt themself in some manor or possibly to lure them into some trap.
Either way it sounds nice, but I'm no fan of this kinda thing.
I mean to each their own, whatever makes you enjoy your game more right? Personally I like the idea that if you get close enough to an enemy undetected, then killing them instantly is easy enough. Granted that logic doesn't really transfer to Deathclaws.
There's no positioning, even less if you have Blitz. You can be god knows how far away, suddenly teleport behind the guy, and 10x sneak attack like it's nothing, over... and over... and over again. And yes, you can do it to Deathclaws even, or robots, or freaking optimus, I mean liberty prime.
And... that is why I just decided to take it away. I would be all for once the GECK is out, adding an activator that if you get RIGHT behind someone, legit, not with Blitz, you could insta kill them as if they were sleeping.
We're just not there yet.
Edit: Actually, I might be able to pull that off. Give me some time on that.
Edit: You make a sneak/instant kill mechanic work, I'll be the first to endorse.