Hi, m8. One question. Where to put optimization mods? Like Clear-Deluxe or Better Game Performance. And also mods like Purge Cell Buffers or No Blur Effect? For now I added these to "Tweaks and Modifications". Cheers!
ok i put purge cell buffers and no blur effects in tweaks and modifications, however its been a while since i had fallout on my system due to losing a drive and therefore losing many many mods, and a few months of geck and fo3 edit stuff. as you can imagine, fracked off dont even come close (yeah i know, always backup always backup, first time i had a sata drive die on me with no warning tho) optimization, now better game performance edits values of the main fallout and all the DLC, anything that does that should generally go as soon after the dlc as you can place it. idk about clear deluxe, if it does similar then put it there, idk will have to check it out.
I just had to stop here to say that this simple "mod," along with the explanation that came with it, helped me track down a show-stopping mod conflict that I would have probably never otherwise found on my own. Thank you, endorsed, recommended. I will name my children after you.
Fellout I would stick its .esps in the weather category, MMM its .esp`s in the major game additions category,
However FWE, see thats one that goes against the grain. I dont use it myself, but I have at any one time over 100 mods active, a few manual fo3plugin merges to keep the count down and aid stability, (otherwise it would be 150 .esps +) each play-through I have pretty much a different game. These rules have seen me fine, but as FWE sets up its own stuff clearly as they give the rules for FWE as
--------------------------------------------------------------- FWE Master Release - Recommended Load Order ---------------------------------------------------------------
Includes: FWE, Project Beauty, Weapon Mod Kits, Mart's Mutant Mod, and EVE
CRAFT.esm CALIBR.esm Project Beauty.esm <---------------------------.esms from all other mods (except follower and weather mods!) FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm Mart's Mutant Mod.esm <--------------------------- .esms from Follower and Weather mods DarNifiedUIF3.esp Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp
<--------------------------- .esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)
So as you can see FWE must do stuff to weather and companions for them to state this load order, as if it didn't you shouldn't need to load companions and weather after FWE. FWE does a LOT of stuff. And for them to state this load order, well it must be tried and tested for them SO I would only go against what they say if your crash happy and are certain its nothing to do with codecs / video drivers (latest nvidea broke fo3 for me needed to roll back)
For sorting the .esm`s , im going to add this to the guide actually, I use BOSS but as it doesn't recognize a lot of .esp`s I have had it make my game unbootable before, but for .esm`s its seems fine, and the rules with them maybe not as hard and fast due to the nature of .esm mods , so just have it do a trial run then manually arrange your esm`s where it says (as long as it recognizes them all)
I've actually been using this as the basis for my load order, and as I said, it's going pretty well, though I'm crossing the magic 100+ .esm/.esp level, so I want to take care to keep it all stable.
Hoonatic, since you obviously know a lot about more about load orders than I do, let me ask another question: Based on the recommended FWE Recommended Load Order you've provided, where would *you* put the following kinds of mods?:
-Radio Stations -Clothing and Armor Mods -New Locations and Player Homes -Quests -Gameplay Changers (like new perks or unlimited skills) -Various Tweaks (like more map markers)
As I said, what I've got is working for me, but if I can optimize it, or do something right in advance to prevent a future crash, I'd love it.
And thanks for the advice re: BOSS. In the past, I've never had much success with automated load order sorters (which have usually in the name of efficiency screwed up my load orders rather than fixing them), but maybe I'll look it over for my .esm files.
-New Locations and Player Homes -Quests - Major game additions (most likely before FWE tho)
-Gameplay Changers (like new perks or unlimited skills) um, Gameplay and effects for perks, unlimited skills feels more like a Tweaks and modifications as it effects default property's for skills -Various Tweaks (like more map markers) Tweaks and modifications
Its rarely a "one size fits all" thing however, load orders. But this is where I would put them, only things that need to be out of the order I describe in the description when using FWE seem to be companions and weather mods. Radio stations are an oddity, seems on mine when using anything that adds tons of spawns to the wasteland having lots of stations does me no good , maybe something to do with the transmission range, idk. Have seen people before say they cant use more than 4 radio stations without having problems, I have had 15 running ok, but with warhammer integrated seemed to be causing the odd wasteland lockup,(even when not listening to them) as doesn't seem to be happening since I disabled them.
Okay, Hoonatic--thanks for the reply, and let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.
Using the FWE Master Release Order as a guide, you would basically put your Load Order Organizer scheme mods, which fall under the headings:
5 Tweaks and Modifications 6 Add-Ons 7 Gameplay and Effects 8 Major Game Additions
. . . just before the FWE files, right (with the exception of Follower and Weather mods, which have to come at the end)? In pretty much this order, too?
So a load order that mixed your suggestions and FWE's suggestions it would look something like the following:
CRAFT.esm CALIBR.esm Project Beauty.esm <---------------------------.esms from all other mods (except follower and weather mods! FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm Mart's Mutant Mod.esm <--------------------------- .esms from Follower and Weather mods DarNifiedUIF3.esp Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp
<--------------------------- .esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)
>5 Tweaks and Modification >6 Add-Ons >7 Gameplay and Effects >8 Major Game Additions
Or should any part be in a different order (say, for the sake of discussion) category 7 Gameplay and Effects mods ought to be placed _after_ category 8 Major Game Additions mods?)
Or doesn't it really matter at all?
As I said, I'm okay with the FWE Load Order broadly, but when it says that I should put ".esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)" in one spot, that's not the most helpful of directions. I have a LOT of these .esps, and if there's a better way of arranging them in this one broad location, I'd like to know what it is! And BOSS and other automated sorters have never failed to make the process worse rather than better, which is why it's nice to converse with a human on these matter!
No problem, so much vague info out there, am slowly editing the description on this to be a one stop shop for load order / tweaking / stability guide. (well a links page for it anyway) And yeah I would say your pretty much right. Follow the normal load order before FWE, place FWE (followed by MMM if you use it) last , then follow it with weather and followers, before FWE use the organizers to help you order everything. It just means the Environmental Effects will be sat there feeling folorn as its .esps are going to be in the "wrong" place after FWE.
This is a great idea, don't know why anybody has not thought of it yet. Although I had to do some tweaking (including adding some new categories) of my own, it makes keeping my 120 current mods a little more organized. I am constantly in and out of FOMM modding, testing and re-modding so much that my eyes go blurry. Very Cool!
I am unclear on a couple of things you could clear up. “If a later mod like a area mod overrides weather your weather mod will have to load after the area mod alas.” Are you just saying that if you get a new or updated version of the same or similar mod it needs to be loaded later? And this was also unclear to me. “.esm`s have there own weirdness's attached, Error fixes 1.5 and better game performance, despite being .esps should load first thing after your .esm`s also I find having alternate start here to be a good thing.” Can you please rephrase. Sorry for being so thick!
Just a note, you did not mention that this URL is for FO3Edit. http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/637
Thanks for the feedback, glad this is of use to you. To clarify “If a later mod like a area mod overrides weather your weather mod will have to load after the area mod alas.” So Weather comes under --environmental effects--- but some mods in the ---major game additions--- (obscurum for example) Have their own weather rules, so in that case you would have to load the weather mod after obscurum if you wanted it to work.
“.esm`s have there own weirdness's attached, Error fixes 1.5 and better game performance, despite being .esps should load first thing after your .esm`s also I find having alternate start here to be a good thing.”
There does not appear to be a hard and fast rule for .esm`s. Generally people who publish mods as .esm will explain where best to put it. Seems to be an oddity of master files that when you have a lot of .esm mods you will have to tweak them around to get them working.
error fixes 1.5 is a patch .esp that fixes errors in the DLC and so preferably should load as soon as it can after the DLC, likewise anything that patches / error fixes the main masters (fallout 3.esm and the DLC) should if it is an esp (as they tend to be) load straight after your .esm`s, likewise alternate start (in theory) due to what it does should load here, should perhaps make a new category one for these things?
Thanks for the clarity. Load-order can be such a touchy thing, one little mistake and your screwed. Just an update, maybe you can find useful. When I initially loaded the mod when I tried to move the separators to new locations an error issued. The standard "Something bad seems to have happened. As long as it wasn't to bad, a crash dump will be saved in..." message. The following is part of the message: System.ArgumentException: File format is not valid. at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.StreamIn(Stream data, Int32 flags) at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.StreamIn(String str, Int32 flags) at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.set_Rtf(String value) at Fomm.MainForm.LoadPluginInfo() at Fomm.MainForm.lvEspList_SelectedIndexChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.OnSelectedIndexChanged(EventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.WmReflectNotify(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.WndProc(Message& m) at L0ki.Controls.ReordableItemListView.WndProc(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)
I just recreated the .esps without a master file and it worked fine. One interesting note I noticed is that your .esps showed a file size of 0KB and my recreated ones showed a size of 1KB. I also reduced the amount of characters to about 30, where yours is about 60. And switched from using underscores to equal signs, as it seems to give a nice visual line break. Finally I removed the numbers at the beginning as I often change thing up, although I did use yours as a guide. Hope this helps. Thanks, this was one of the most useful ideas in a while.
You didnt enable them (check the box next to them) did you? it does say in the description not to do that, they are just notepad files renamed as .esp so they will slot into place, and should get left alone when you do a master update, as if they are processed by the master update you will get errors if you rename them or move them.
NO, I did not enable them. I initially loaded all .esps by placing them in the Data File, then started the FOMM, clicked on the file to move it, not check the box. On the first click (to drag to new location) the Error came up. MasterUpdate was not the problem, did not even get that far. Although I did run MU on the .esps I created in the GECK with no problems.
For some reason creating the file with notepad did not work. I duplicated your method (two ways, first doing a save-as with the .esp extension and second with .txt extension and renaming the file to .esp after ), and got the same result, errors on both methods. Perhaps you should try and create the .esps in the GECK, just don't load any other file first. That worked for me. Good Luck with it!
If others are having the same issues the I did perhaps you should include some instructions in the readme file to use an alternate method of creating the files.
That is all I get I can move em fine. I also redownloaded the version from here to check as well. I cannot understand why your fomm is doing this with them. I have the last fallout 3 only one, do you have the newer one that does both fallout and NV? So you just click on them once to drag and reposition them and your fomm crashes? Which version of fomm? it shouldent do anything with them. And doesnt at this end.
Also Did you download them with NMM? If you did and this is somehow the cause gonna remove the download with NMM button.
I mean I can make them in the geck and upload that, wont take 5 minutes. curious as to what is causing all this gyp at your end however, when I have been doing this for years. (making notepad files with --filecatogory--.esp at the end so they turn up in fomms window) Only thought to upload them When I saw a mod author giving some really bad load order advice on a thread and people uploading some really shoddy load orders on mod makers threads and asking for help.
Anyhow, following your feedback I redid them in the GECK so hopefully no one else will have that frankly bizarre crash issue you had with them, and changed the description a bit.
24 comments
Btw. Awesome job with this load order.
Sincerely,
Proud Papa of Little Baby Hoonatic
Under which numbered headings, in this schema, would you put the following popular mods:
-FWE
-MMM
-Fellout
I'd be obliged for the advice.
However FWE, see thats one that goes against the grain. I dont use it myself, but I have at any one time over 100 mods active, a few manual fo3plugin merges to keep the count down and aid stability, (otherwise it would be 150 .esps +) each play-through I have pretty much a different game. These rules have seen me fine, but as FWE sets up its own stuff clearly as they give the rules for FWE as
---------------------------------------------------------------
FWE Master Release - Recommended Load Order
---------------------------------------------------------------
Includes: FWE, Project Beauty, Weapon Mod Kits, Mart's Mutant Mod, and EVE
Fallout3.esm
Anchorage.esm
ThePitt.esm
BrokenSteel.esm
PointLookout.esm
Zeta.esm
CRAFT.esm
CALIBR.esm
Project Beauty.esm
<---------------------------.esms from all other mods (except follower and weather mods!)
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm
Mart's Mutant Mod.esm
<--------------------------- .esms from Follower and Weather mods
DarNifiedUIF3.esp
Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp
Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp
<--------------------------- .esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Followers Enhanced.esp (Choose BS OR Non-BS Version) (OPTIONAL)
FO3 Wanderers Edition - OTHER OPTIONAL FWE MODULES
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty.esp (FROM FOIP)
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty (Followers Enhanced).esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits.esp
WeaponModKits - FWE Master Release.esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits - FWE Optional Worn Weapons.esp (FROM FOIP, only if using using F3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Worn Weapons.esp!)
WeaponModKits - OperationAnchorage.esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits - ThePitt.esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits - BrokenSteel.esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits - PointLookout.esp (FROM FOIP)
WeaponModKits - Zeta.esp (FROM FOIP)
EVE.esp
EVE Operation Anchorage.esp
EVE - FWE Master Release.esp (FROM FOIP)
EVE - FWE Master Release (Follower Enhanced).esp (FROM FOIP)
EVE Anchorage - FWE DLC Anchorage.esp (FROM FOIP)
EVE - FWE with WeaponModKits.esp (FROM FOIP)
Mart's Mutant Mod.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Zeta.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Project Beauty.esp (FROM PROJECT BEAUTY)
Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.esp (FROM FOIP)
Mart's Mutant Mod - Project Beauty + FWE.esp (FROM FOIP)
<--------------------------- .esps from Follower and Weather mods)
<--------------------------- Your merged patch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So as you can see FWE must do stuff to weather and companions for them to state this load order, as if it didn't you shouldn't need to load companions and weather after FWE. FWE does a LOT of stuff. And for them to state this load order, well it must be tried and tested for them SO I would only go against what they say if your crash happy and are certain its nothing to do with codecs / video drivers (latest nvidea broke fo3 for me needed to roll back)
For sorting the .esm`s , im going to add this to the guide actually, I use BOSS but as it doesn't recognize a lot of .esp`s I have had it make my game unbootable before, but for .esm`s its seems fine, and the rules with them maybe not as hard and fast due to the nature of .esm mods , so just have it do a trial run then manually arrange your esm`s where it says (as long as it recognizes them all)
I've actually been using this as the basis for my load order, and as I said, it's going pretty well, though I'm crossing the magic 100+ .esm/.esp level, so I want to take care to keep it all stable.
Hoonatic, since you obviously know a lot about more about load orders than I do, let me ask another question: Based on the recommended FWE Recommended Load Order you've provided, where would *you* put the following kinds of mods?:
-Radio Stations
-Clothing and Armor Mods
-New Locations and Player Homes
-Quests
-Gameplay Changers (like new perks or unlimited skills)
-Various Tweaks (like more map markers)
As I said, what I've got is working for me, but if I can optimize it, or do something right in advance to prevent a future crash, I'd love it.
And thanks for the advice re: BOSS. In the past, I've never had much success with automated load order sorters (which have usually in the name of efficiency screwed up my load orders rather than fixing them), but maybe I'll look it over for my .esm files.
Thanks again
-Clothing and Armor Mods
Addons
-New Locations and Player Homes
-Quests -
Major game additions (most likely before FWE tho)
-Gameplay Changers (like new perks or unlimited skills)
um, Gameplay and effects for perks, unlimited skills feels more like a Tweaks and modifications as it effects default property's for skills
-Various Tweaks (like more map markers)
Tweaks and modifications
Its rarely a "one size fits all" thing however, load orders. But this is where I would put them, only things that need to be out of the order I describe in the description when using FWE seem to be companions and weather mods. Radio stations are an oddity, seems on mine when using anything that adds tons of spawns to the wasteland having lots of stations does me no good , maybe something to do with the transmission range, idk. Have seen people before say they cant use more than 4 radio stations without having problems, I have had 15 running ok, but with warhammer integrated seemed to be causing the odd wasteland lockup,(even when not listening to them) as doesn't seem to be happening since I disabled them.
Using the FWE Master Release Order as a guide, you would basically put your Load Order Organizer scheme mods, which fall under the headings:
5 Tweaks and Modifications
6 Add-Ons
7 Gameplay and Effects
8 Major Game Additions
. . . just before the FWE files, right (with the exception of Follower and Weather mods, which have to come at the end)? In pretty much this order, too?
So a load order that mixed your suggestions and FWE's suggestions it would look something like the following:
------------------------------------
Fallout3.esm
Anchorage.esm
ThePitt.esm
BrokenSteel.esm
PointLookout.esm
Zeta.esm
CRAFT.esm
CALIBR.esm
Project Beauty.esm
<---------------------------.esms from all other mods (except follower and weather mods!
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm
Mart's Mutant Mod.esm
<--------------------------- .esms from Follower and Weather mods
DarNifiedUIF3.esp
Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp
Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp
<--------------------------- .esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)
>5 Tweaks and Modification
>6 Add-Ons
>7 Gameplay and Effects
>8 Major Game Additions
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.esp
FO3 Wanderers Edition - Followers Enhanced.esp (Choose BS OR Non-BS Version) (OPTIONAL)
FO3 Wanderers Edition - OTHER OPTIONAL FWE MODULES
. . . and so on.
------------------------------------------------
Or should any part be in a different order (say, for the sake of discussion) category 7 Gameplay and Effects mods ought to be placed _after_ category 8 Major Game Additions mods?)
Or doesn't it really matter at all?
As I said, I'm okay with the FWE Load Order broadly, but when it says that I should put ".esps from other mods (except follower and weather mods!)" in one spot, that's not the most helpful of directions. I have a LOT of these .esps, and if there's a better way of arranging them in this one broad location, I'd like to know what it is! And BOSS and other automated sorters have never failed to make the process worse rather than better, which is why it's nice to converse with a human on these matter!
I am unclear on a couple of things you could clear up.
“If a later mod like a area mod overrides weather your weather mod will have to load after the area mod alas.”
Are you just saying that if you get a new or updated version of the same or similar mod it needs to be loaded later?
And this was also unclear to me.
“.esm`s have there own weirdness's attached, Error fixes 1.5 and better game performance, despite being .esps should load first thing after your .esm`s also I find having alternate start here to be a good thing.”
Can you please rephrase.
Sorry for being so thick!
Just a note, you did not mention that this URL is for FO3Edit.
http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/637
Keep On Modding!
To clarify “If a later mod like a area mod overrides weather your weather mod will have to load after the area mod alas.”
So Weather comes under --environmental effects--- but some mods in the ---major game additions--- (obscurum for example) Have their own weather rules, so in that case you would have to load the weather mod after obscurum if you wanted it to work.
“.esm`s have there own weirdness's attached, Error fixes 1.5 and better game performance, despite being .esps should load first thing after your .esm`s also I find having alternate start here to be a good thing.”
There does not appear to be a hard and fast rule for .esm`s. Generally people who publish mods as .esm will explain where best to put it. Seems to be an oddity of master files that when you have a lot of .esm mods you will have to tweak them around to get them working.
error fixes 1.5 is a patch .esp that fixes errors in the DLC and so preferably should load as soon as it can after the DLC, likewise anything that patches / error fixes the main masters (fallout 3.esm and the DLC) should if it is an esp (as they tend to be) load straight after your .esm`s, likewise alternate start (in theory) due to what it does should load here, should perhaps make a new category one for these things?
Just an update, maybe you can find useful. When I initially loaded the mod when I tried to move the separators to new locations an error issued. The standard "Something bad seems to have happened. As long as it wasn't to bad, a crash dump will be saved in..." message.
The following is part of the message:
System.ArgumentException: File format is not valid.
at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.StreamIn(Stream data, Int32 flags)
at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.StreamIn(String str, Int32 flags)
at System.Windows.Forms.RichTextBox.set_Rtf(String value)
at Fomm.MainForm.LoadPluginInfo()
at Fomm.MainForm.lvEspList_SelectedIndexChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.OnSelectedIndexChanged(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.WmReflectNotify(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.ListView.WndProc(Message& m)
at L0ki.Controls.ReordableItemListView.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)
I just recreated the .esps without a master file and it worked fine. One interesting note I noticed is that your .esps showed a file size of 0KB and my recreated ones showed a size of 1KB. I also reduced the amount of characters to about 30, where yours is about 60. And switched from using underscores to equal signs, as it seems to give a nice visual line break. Finally I removed the numbers at the beginning as I often change thing up, although I did use yours as a guide. Hope this helps. Thanks, this was one of the most useful ideas in a while.
Keep On Modding!
TS
For some reason creating the file with notepad did not work. I duplicated your method (two ways, first doing a save-as with the .esp extension and second with .txt extension and renaming the file to .esp after ), and got the same result, errors on both methods. Perhaps you should try and create the .esps in the GECK, just don't load any other file first. That worked for me. Good Luck with it!
If others are having the same issues the I did perhaps you should include some instructions in the readme file to use an alternate method of creating the files.
Keep On Modding!
1____________USERINTERFACE____________________________________.esp
Warning: Plugin appears corrupt
That is all I get I can move em fine.
I also redownloaded the version from here to check as well.
I cannot understand why your fomm is doing this with them. I have the last fallout 3 only one, do you have the newer one that does both fallout and NV? So you just click on them once to drag and reposition them and your fomm crashes? Which version of fomm? it shouldent do anything with them. And doesnt at this end.
Also Did you download them with NMM? If you did and this is somehow the cause gonna remove the download with NMM button.
I mean I can make them in the geck and upload that, wont take 5 minutes. curious as to what is causing all this gyp at your end however, when I have been doing this for years. (making notepad files with --filecatogory--.esp at the end so they turn up in fomms window) Only thought to upload them When I saw a mod author giving some really bad load order advice on a thread and people uploading some really shoddy load orders on mod makers threads and asking for help.
I'll be back to endorse in the morning...
But yeah, this is good mate. Genius as I said lol