Amazing job on this friend. You're probably far more familiar with the Strength Checker thread from the legendary Herms, but in the off chance you or anyone here is not:
A few things I would change on this mod would be human-based models like #17 & #18 to "Androids" (while keeping the actual synthetic beings like #16 & #19 as "Artificial Humans"), as it was in the manga's original dialog. I actually can't find where "Artificial Humans" originated from - likely as a full literal translation being an English fandom thing?
I believe "Android" is fairly consistently used in Japan, and basically every time Dr. Gero or Cell refers to them within the manga. Examples;
Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P12.1
Cell: “Human life extract alone isn’t enough for me to reach my perfect form. I need to merge with two important, particular life forms...The computer told me of these two particular life forms…….Dr. Gero’s creations—Androids No.17 and No.18!”
Also, I noticed you restored the 8000 line said by Vegeta. This Strength Checker thread could be used as an excellent resource to update all lines to be said as they originally were in the manga, regarding battle power. I think that would be absolutely incredible.
An android is a humanoid robot, what you are saying is that the human-based ones should be called cyborgs like they were referenced in the manga. Artificial Humans is used by Steve Simmons translations in the Funimation DVD releases and is also used on Kanzenshuu. This is because Artificial Humans is a generic enough term and the Japanese name Jinzōningen is also a generic term to refer to cyborgs, androids, or any other non-natural or enhanced lifeforms. I know the Viz manga does use Android but I go with Artificial Humans.
You're quoting the Viz manga translation and asserting it as "the original dialog", which is just bizarre. The only term used to refer to the Artificial Humans in Japanese is Jinzoningen, which means exactly that. The word "Android" is not used in Dragon Ball, and the Viz translation as a whole is barbaric in places.
"You're quoting the Viz manga translation and asserting it as 'the original dialog', which is just bizarre."
Incorrect. The very reputable Herms from the Kazenshuu forums knows Japanese and translated every power-scaling line of the original DB manga into English.
Because you missed it, read this thread and search for terms like "Android" using CTRL+F:
Within that thread, you can see he's labeled them "Android No. #" and has direct lines from Trunks, Tien, Cell, Dr. Gero etc. referring to them as Androids. No VIZ-ism whatsoever.
"Viz translation as a whole is barbaric in places."
Correct, and if anything, the official VIZ translation is the only manga iteration they're called "Artificial Humans":
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”
Like I said, I'm not bothered by the "Artificial Humans" at all and don't care if it isn't changed. It IS good enough. I think both can be used, as I suggested in a way to differentiate the 16's from the models like 17 & 18 etc.
How Herms personally chooses to translate Jinzoningen is irrelevant. Artificial Human is the Simmons standard, and his translation of the full series is the best overall. There is no "contest" about it, it is a Japanese word, there is no English word intended in the dialogue. Artificial Human is the literal translation which has the best coverage for the concept that it actually entails in the story, whereas Android is too specific and incorrect for most characters classified as Jinzoningen. In another series, translating jinzoningen to android may be preferable, but DB is unique in this regard. DB also has its own definition of ningen/human in the first place, further reinforcing the appropriateness of this phrase.
Okay so you DO know who "Daimao" aka Steve Simmons is and what he's actually translated? He translated the Japanese anime script for the FUNimation’s official subtitles for the entire English anime. A script that often differs from the manga itself.
The manga standard, which absolutely supersedes the anime standard, has always been "Cyborg" aka Android. "Artificial Humans" can be used to describe them as whole because it's very vague.
Herms has done the manga translation with the assistance of many other Japanese speakers and translators assisting him to conserve the dialect as closely as possible, in this "new era" context, which the community has unanimously agreed are very accurate. Herms went with Android because it's what Akira Toriyama called them in the original manga.
How Herms personally chooses to translate Jinzoningen is irrelevant.
Except Simmons also translated "Jinzoningen" into "Cyborgs" in both the original DB Z subtitles and the newer DB KAI subs as well:
A script that often differs from the manga itself.
Insofar as some episodes are based on earlier storyboards submitted by Toriyama that were altered for the final chapter release. It is not a major issue, especially not to this point. (Toei typically maintains lines that contradict their filler content, for instance; they are not a threat to authenticity except in adding new lines)
The manga standard, which absolutely supersedes the anime standard
...No, it doesn't. Not in general, and especially not for this game, which is based on the anime(+movies) over the manga wherever applicable(coloration, interpretation of DBS arcs). There is no "hierarchy" in the franchise itself, but especially not in any way that one could extrapolate some kind of "translation priority" out of. In any case, all original depictions of the Dragon Ball story are in Japanese, and within them only the Japanese word Jinzoningen is used. This could, in general usage elsewhere, mean "android" 99% of the time, but DB uses it in a sense that strictly contradicts the possible meaning of the English word "android". In light of this, a vaguer literal translation proves more appropriate. I even grant that a first-time viewer is intended to expect androids at the beginning of the arc(since the Gero #20 thing is a reveal) but this is not relevant to any of us who have known this story for most of our lives, and so it is more important to keep the terminology consistent overall.
If officialism is resorted to, the majority of official translations that at least attempt faithfulness(ie, discounting dubs) opt for Artificial Human. Of these, my preferred one - the Steve Simmons subtitles - does as well. Personally, I would actually leave it untranslated, if only because the literal translation has many more syllables, but that is arbitrary. I'm uninterested in any attempts to back positions by invoking the names of e-celebs, regardless of how many Japanese people may or may not have been involved. They do not know anything we don't on this matter.
Not sure if serious. Akira Toiryama's words and vision for the official Dragon Ball history and terms are true canon when it comes to the Dragon Ball franchise, and sits at the very top. Very bizarre comment to leave on a mod page where authentic terms replace the incorrect ones...based on the source of it all (the MANGA, which is what the ANIME is based off of).
especially not for this game, which is based on the anime(+movies)
Which is incorrect in the first place, HENCE the existence of this mod correcting the things it does.
Not only that, you say the game is based on the [japanese] anime, which once again has Simmons refer to 17 & 18 as "Cyborgs" AKA "Androids" in DB Kai episode 57, Japanese sub, minute 13:52.
At the end of the day, every single reputable source from Akira Toriyama to horrible VIZ to the greats Simmons/Herms to Toei & Bandai etc. has referred to them as "Cyborgs" AKA "Androids" - not that any of the other sources mattered anyway since Akira Toriyama specifically has "Androids" in his official manga (as Herms and Simmons both agree).
Toriyama is the primary writer of even the anime, given that a supermajority of the dialogue and scenes were written and choreographed by him, be it directly or indirectly. People like Koyama have a much lesser influence on the anime compared to Toriyama. There are things reflecting Toriyama's vision not found in the manga(the Dai Kaio, for example) and the manga has no special status within the treatment of the franchise. All DB tertiary media, including this game, take after animated content rather than an independent interpretation of the manga. As I already said the anime is not directly based on the manga at all times, as the anime is often made from production material submitted by Toriyama before it is published in the manga. Toriyama also occasionally adjusts the manga to respect Toei's output, i.e. Bardock being incorporated into the Freeza Saga and the Potara merger of Goku and Vegeta being renamed to Vegetto from its originally intended Gogeta. The "manga primacy" agenda you are presenting here is only really relevant for storyline continuity discussions, as Toriyama tends only to maintain continuity to his own work, but even this is increasingly less true in recent years(and with Daima...). None of this even has anything to do with what we were arguing initially but it is interesting nonetheless. Btw, where do Tullece and Yi Xing Long appear in the manga?
I decided to actually entertain your Kai timestamp there, and this is hilarious - Trunks is describing them as cyborgs in terms of what they substantively are, and the subs literally use Artificial Humans in the very same line! Not only is this completely irrelevant to the argument, it goes against your point. If "jinzoningen" was exclusively intended to mean "android", why is Trunks himself describing them as cyborgs, a very different thing? This proves that "Android" is an outright incorrect translation, which wasn't even necessarily what I was asserting(just that it is unsuitable for DB in particular). The dispute is not about whether #17 and #18 literally are cyborgs(they are), but their name, which is consistently rendered as Artificial Human in all cases. You won't find Simmons breaking this rule.
The Japanese word Jinzoningen is consistently rendered as Artificial Human in all the relevant translations, including the ones you are trying to cite. #8, #16 and #19 are still literally androids, and #17, #18 and #20 are literally cyborgs, but they all bear the same Jinzoningen name. Cell is also considered a Jinzoningen and is neither of these things. And that is exactly why the phrase Artificial Human is preferred to refer to all inclusively.
I decided to actually entertain your Kai timestamp there, and this is hilarious - Trunks is describing them as cyborgs in terms of what they substantively are, and the subs literally use Artificial Humans in the very same line!
1. Never said he didn't say "Artificial Human" 2. He specifies what kind of Jinzōningen / Artificial Humans they are by calling them "Cyborgs" (this is incorrect btw):
Cell is also considered a Jinzoningen and is neither of these things. And that is exactly why the phrase Artificial Human is preferred to refer to all inclusively.
Cyborg (改造人間) would be "kaizouningen". "Cyborg" is not under the umbrella of "Jinzōningen / Jinzouningen", so no it isn't "inclusive," it's incorrect. "Android" and "robot" are inclusive within jinzouningen. So by default, they are named Androids specifically, if you are going to refer to them as Jinzouningen (which you already conceded).
There is actual in-universe lore that would make them far more robotic (Androids) in nature than just simply enhanced humans (Cyborgs) - however, it is all irrelevant because Akira Toriyama said they are technically cyborgs, and named them Androids. That's why I don't mind Cyborg or Android (as Herms and Simmons both understood what I'm talking about).
Any of it is better than "Artificial Human #17" is my point. That's like saying "Organic Human Tenshinhan".
Akira Toriyama as well, since he purposely avoided naming them cyborgs and also had the characters in his manga treat them as androids. Who knows why. Trolling or just didn't bother to make the distinction in the manga, again who knows. But they were always named Androids. EVEN when he acknowledged they were technically "cyborgs", he insisted in naming them Androids still:
but their name, which is consistently rendered as Artificial Human in all cases
Incorrect, I just showed you an official Japanese page and Akira Toriyama's own words where they're called, specifically, "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
If "jinzoningen" was exclusively intended to mean "android", why is Trunks himself describing them as cyborgs, a very different thing?
You just read Akira Toriyama make the distinction and still name them Androids. This holds consistent throughout his original manga. I know why Simmons chose "cyborg", because it is what they are. But it is not what they are named.
When you pile up the evidence from the 17 & 18 official lore, plus their official names within the manga and Japanese official media, their names (after Lapis / Lazuli) were always "Android No. 17" & "Android No.18." Literally even when Akira Toriyama says they are technically cyborg types.
"Cyborg" is not under the umbrella of "Jinzōningen / Jinzouningen", so no it isn't "inclusive," it's incorrect.
The Japanese wikipedia article rejects any narrow definition for "Jinzoningen". It also provides its own English translation of the term at the very beginning of the page which you might find interesting: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E9%80%A0%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93 Perhaps you should take this fight to the Japanese wikipedia administration.
There is actual in-universe lore that would make them far more robotic (Androids) in nature than just simply enhanced humans (Cyborgs) - however, it is all irrelevant because Akira Toriyama said they are technically cyborgs, and named them Androids.
The manga itself says that #17 and #18 are primarily biological with mainly organic modifications, I doubt you're really contesting that. Toriyama's interview statement is merely that #17 and #18 were normal humans kidnapped by Dr. Gero, whereas their ultimate origin was unclear previously. Trunks himself describes them as cyborgs(not kaizoningen, but saibogo as an English loanword) in your previously cited scene, when the idea of them is first introduced to the story. The actual androids are #8, #16 and #19, that is not disputed in any case. The crux of the issue is that the characters under the Jinzoningen name differ greatly in their actual nature, and Artificial Human is the only phrase nonspecific enough to cover them all adequately.
Any of it is better than "Artificial Human #17" is my point. That's like saying "Organic Human Tenshinhan".
Tenshinhan is not literally called that as part of his name is the difference. The Jinzoningen are consistently referred to as such, it is almost like their surname, with the exception of Cell. TBH, if we don't translate things like "Majin" we probably shouldn't translate this at all either by the same logic, but Artificial Human is still the way to go if at all. Japanese Wikipedia translates the term that way, after all.
As I said, Japan has always called them Androids:
Japan doesn't really know English and is liable to use inconsistent spellings and translations, like Kulilin and Freezer. They use the usual dictionary translation for the word without consideration of these kinds of nuances, and I'm sure you can find obscure instances of "Cyborg" and "Artificial Human" in these kinds of contexts as well.
they were always named Androids. EVEN when he acknowledged they were technically "cyborgs", he insisted in naming them Androids still
Man he just says Jinzoningen. He doesn't know the word android, he probably never spoke a word of English in his life.
Akira Toriyama's own words
*the translator's own words
You're insisting on this 1:1 Jinzoningen = Android lexical equivalence that just isn't the case. This is rather like saying "genki" always means "spirit" and has no further nuance. Toriyama writing Jinzoningen has in itself no implications for anything in English, the translation occurs entirely independently from him. It is not like he has "Android" written in English on the characters(which is used as evidence for things like the spelling of Boo and Bulma, but even this receives pushback sometimes).
Perhaps you should take this fight to the Japanese wikipedia administration.
No need, when actual official dictionaries (far more accurate than wikipedia lmfao) all say "jinzouningen = "android, robot, artificial/man-made human". Japanese speakers also vindicate this, such as Herms. Go tell Herms he's "wrong".
The term for "cyborg" is "kaizouningen" and it appears nowhere when naming or referring to 17 & 18 as a whole in the manga. Toriyama absolutely declared they are cyborg types, but that ain't what he named them.
That was an understandable liberty taken by the anime staff (not Simmons, who just translated the anime script) based on Akira Toriyama declaring they are indeed cyborg types.
Any reference to "kaizouningen" or "cyborg" is anime-only. And yet I am not opposed to naming them such, over "Artificial Human 17/18." (Still prefer naming them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" as they've been established in Japan and in the manga).
The Jinzoningen are consistently referred to as such, it is almost like their surname
You are making my point for me. For some reason, Akira Toriyama chose to make the term "Android" their "surname", despite them being technically cyborg types. Chalk it up to his carefree attitude, a quirk, or his "ignorance", it doesn't matter. Their established names are "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
The whole thing stems from a disconnect between knowing what they technically are and feeling wrong for "misnaming" them. They are cyborg types, yet are referred to as "人造人間"/Jinzōningen which explicitly excludes kaizouningen/cyborgs, so translators will try to keep things vague/neutral by opting for the vaguest definition of "Artificial Human" when in reality it's always defaulted to "Android" (in name only).
Japan doesn't really know English
lmao that's not actually how that works. Jinzouningen doesn't need anyone in Japan to understand English, they're telling you in their language what they're referring to. "Android, robot, artificial/man-made human".
Every Japanese & English speaker knows this, and they've all understood jinzoningen in sci-fi context to be Android over "robot" and "Artificial Human". Hence why they named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material (which has not been translated whatsoever, therefore not susceptible to "errors"):
Those are liabilities by translators, not Akira Toriyama nor Japan. They spelled "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" perfectly, many times within their many raw Japanese official material. Jinzōningen also spelled perfectly as "人造人間18号" within the manga as well.
Man he just says Jinzoningen.
Which literally means "android, robot, artificial/man-made human".
You're insisting on this 1:1 Jinzoningen = Android lexical equivalence that just isn't the case.
I don't have to insist on anything, I just showed you 2 official sources where their actual names are printed as "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18". One of which is from the creator himself who straight up tells you the characters named "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" are "technically cyborgs" and then goes on to refer to them as "Jinzōningen" throughout his entire manga.
You can choose to ignore actual definitions, official Japanese pages and now the creator's own words, but the fact remains they've always been named "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in Japan and in the manga.
As I said, "Artificial Human" literal translation comes from likely cognitive dissonance because they are indeed Cyborgs and not at all Androids, it feels utterly "wrong". But there is overwhelming evidence that their names are established as "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" from day 1.
actual official dictionaries (how can dictionaries be "official" anyway? the Japanese language is not a private property) all say "jinzouningen = "artificial/man-made human".
Alright, nice.
The term for "cyborg" is "kaizouningen" and it appears nowhere when naming or referring to 17 & 18 as a whole in the manga.
But it is also immediately revealed that #17 and #18 are organic, such as when they talk to #16 and are surprised to find out that he is robotic unlike them.
"人造人間"/Jinzōningen which explicitly excludes kaizouningen/cyborgs
Clearly not since the dialogue itself calls them cyborgs in the same breath as Jinzoningen. The conclusion to draw from this is that Jinzoningen/Artificial Human includes these kinds of things, just like how ningen/human in Dragon Ball includes Saiyans and Namekians and so on.
Jinzouningen doesn't need anyone in Japan to understand English, they're telling you in their language what they're referring to.
Yes, artificial humans, which can include robotic or organic synthetics, and even genetically engineered humanoids, if one is so inclined.
Hence why they named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material (which has not been translated whatsoever, therefore not susceptible to "errors")
It has been translated because the people creating that material do not themselves speak English. Gratuitous English is all-pervasive in Japanese media, it is typically very poor, this is nothing special.
Those are liabilities by translators, not Akira Toriyama nor Japan.
Toriyama himself did write "Kulilin" on his cap in the manga. Ergo, that is the most authoritative and correct rendering of his name by your logic.
Which literally means "artificial/man-made human".
I'm glad you're coming around to my point.
I just showed you 2 official sources where their names are translated as "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18". One of which is from the translator himself who straight up tells you the characters named "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18"
Ok, Funimation is also an "official" source. Could've just gone for that.
You can choose to ignore actual definitions, official Japanese pages and now the creator's own words, but the fact remains they've always been named "Jinzoningen Juunana-go" and "Jinzoningen Juuhachi-go" in Japan and in the manga.
Indeed.
I'm glad we've established that Kulilin is the character's actual official author-intended name and Karin is blue
lmfao nice cope by trying to drop "android" from the "Jinzōningen" definition, but it's not gonna work.
Describing "kaizouningen" and trying to tack that definition to "Jinzōningen" isn't gonna work either, but you already knew that.
Clearly not since the dialogue itself calls them cyborgs in the same breath as Jinzoningen. The conclusion to draw from this is that Jinzoningen/Artificial Human includes these kinds of things, just like how ningen/human in Dragon Ball includes Saiyans and Namekians and so on.
Another weak cope. If "Jinzōningen" magically took on a "new"/alternate meaning within the DB universe to include "Cyborg", the anime staff and Simmons wouldn't need to specify 17 & 18 were "cyborgs". It would be a given just by calling them "Jinzōningen".
The Zero Ningen Project includes all lower living things/mortals because Ningen can already mean both "human being" AND its Chinese reference that means “societies” or “this [lower] world”, seperate from the afterlife, so ridding the universe of all lower [mortal] societies can very easily be understood as genociding all living things. Which is why Ningen can include all life like humans, Saiyans and Namekians etc. by default.
Jinzōningen has always had its default definition within the DB universe as its had throughout all of sci-fi, no alteration whatsoever. Which is once again "android, robot, artificial/man-made human", which once again has fell back to ANDROID over "robot" and "artificial human" as official material shows when naming "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material:
Otherwise, if "Jinzōningen" already had "cyborg" under it, then EVERYONE would've gone with "CYBORG No. 17" over "Artificial Human No. 17 "
"Ok, Funimation is also an "official" source. Could've just gone for that."
So that is now 3 official sources naming them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18", plus Herms as a reputable translator within the community and VegettoEX also agreeing with "Android". That's 5 now.
Everything else you said is irrelevant and doesn't disprove the fact that 5 different sources, both official and unofficial, have named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
Describing "kaizouningen" and trying to tack that definition to "Jinzōningen"
That's like saying "describing uchuujin and trying to tack that definition to ningen". There's no reason kaizoningen can't be a subset of jinzoningen, but this whole exchange is irrelevant because the word kaizoningen is never even said and is rarely ever used even in other series. There's an obvious reason kaizoningen isn't used: because #8 was a robot, and all others follow the naming scheme set by him.
Actually now that I think about it, are we sure #8 is really a robot canonically? I think this is only explicitly a point in filler. Frankenstein's Monster is an organic jinzoningen, so it would stand to reason if #8 were too. He donates genki in both Z and Super somehow.
the anime staff and Simmons wouldn't need to specify 17 & 18 were "cyborgs". It would be a given just by calling them "Jinzōningen".
By that logic, words like Saiyajin or Nammekkuseijin wouldn't need to exist either. This is just incoherent at this point. All that's happening is more information is being given.
The ningen thing isn't just relevant for Zamasu, though that brought it to the forefront. In the manga already, Ginyu for example describes himself as a ningen. It's extra convenient that by keeping this word, we have a more internally coherent terminology.
Jinzōningen has always had its default definition within the DB universe as its had throughout all of sci-fi, no alteration whatsoever. Which is once again "artificial/man-made human",
Yes.
which once again has fell back to ANDROID over "robot" and "artificial human"
I don't see "Android" in my manga or anime. How could this possibly happen?
Otherwise, if "Jinzōningen" already had "cyborg" under it, then EVERYONE would've gone with "CYBORG No. 17" over "Artificial Human No. 17 "
No because we need to keep consistency with all the others. Translating Jinzoningen differently for every model number would be really weird, especially since it's often used to refer to the whole group. If we were to limit the scope to just the OGDB section of the story, for example, translating Jinzoningen Hachi-go to Android #8 would be fine, since there's nothing to suggest the term android is inappropriate. But this changes when later arcs are accounted for. (This is probably the reason for the translations you keep sending, now that I think about it; #8 was translated on his own and then the later models conformed to his precedent years later, even though the term didn't make sense anymore)
My native dub(the German one) actually does translate them all as "cyborg" indiscriminately, even #8 afaik, which I hate but it did happen there. Not a fan.
Of course you do in the form of Jinzōningen but you just choose to cope by ignoring it. Thankfully the fandom, and the official staff all recognize the word to default to Android hence why they named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material:
There's no reason kaizoningen can't be a subset of jinzoningen
Factually incorrect, and if you argue otherwise, then you are conceding to my point that Androids or Cyborgs 17 & 18 are better than "Artificial Humans". Since "it's all the same" anyway, right?
The anime staff and plenty of translators within the fandom made the error based on Akira Toriyama's biological breakdown of them, which influenced/carried over to the anime's script and thus Simmons' translation. The crux of the whole problem is that they erroneously went with "Artificial Human" when translating Jinzōningen, instead of "Android", thinking it was "neutral" enough that they could then contradict themselves by specifying they were "cyborgs" in the very next line.
""They are Artificial Humans born of this earth. Otherwise known as Cyborgs." is a contradiction and makes no sense. Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans are NOT Cyborgs, and Cyborgs are not Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans.
Further contradicting themselves, they go on to have Trunks say: "The one who created them was a former mad scientist of the red ribbon army, Dr Gero"
Cyborgs cannot be created, only enhanced. See: Mecha Freeza. Dr. Gero "creating" them is a contradiction because he actually kidnapped them and enhanced/turned them into Cyborgs.
They should've made the distinction between their names and their biology, but they chose to say they are both created as Androids and Cyborgs.
Akira Toriyama is on record calling them Jinzōningen and once again specifying they are indeed actually non-robot/technically cyborg-types.
It's a quirk/troll at this point. Exactly how "Dragon Ball SUPER: SUPER Hero" came to be. He knew it was an error, just didn't give a damn enough to correct it or simply thought it would be funny.
Considering there is absolutely ZERO difference between Android and Artificial Human, who in their right mind would opt for Artificial Human over Android in naming 17 and 18 when once again Japan has ZERO instances where they've named them "Artificial Human" and ample evidence showing they've named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18"?
you see the Japanese word Jinzoningen, which is not the English word Android
That is correct, yes.
Thankfully random internet users, and the American dub mutilators all recognize the word to default to Android
Luckily, I consume Dragon Ball through professional translations, which give me Artificial Human.
""They are Artificial Humans born of this earth. Otherwise known as Cyborgs." is a contradiction and makes no sense. Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans are NOT Cyborgs, and Cyborgs are not Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans.
Nothing about being an Artificial Human precludes the possibility of having mechanical modifications so as to constitute a cyborg.
Actually, the oldest uses of the word android in English refer to organic artificial humans, ironically. If this sense were understood today the word would actually be fine. This is one of the differences to the Japanese Jinzoningen.
Further contradicting themselves, they go on to have Trunks say: "The one who created them was a former mad scientist of the red ribbon army, Dr Gero"
The Artificial Humans No. 17 and 18 were created by Gero from human bases. This is semantics, he did not create Lapis and Lazuli per se but the current individuals are treated as basically different identities and beings altogether. See also how #20 himself says Dr. Gero is dead and only identifies himself as Artificial Human #20.
Besides, it is not as though Trunks knows their personal backstory. I'm surprised he even knew they were cyborgs.
who in their right mind would opt for Artificial Human over Android in naming 17 and 18
Every relevant official English translator of the anime and manga, apparently.
ample evidence showing they've named him "Kulilin"
Here within your precious "professional translation", it says:
"Our heroes' worst fears have come true: androids #17 and #18,who in time traveler Trunks's future have already destroyed the world, have been activated! And along with them is #16, an android even Trunks doesn't know! With Goku almost dead from a virus, only Super Saiyan Vegeta has a chance against them--unless Piccolo's plan to merge with his ancient enemy Kami-sama will make him the new strongest being on Earth! But something even worse than androids has come back from the future..."
Thanks for playing.
ample evidence showing they've named him "Kulilin" Yup.
You keep clinging onto this irrelevant strawman as if his name isn't directly written out in the original Japanese manga as "Kuririn" and referred to as such in the entire Dragon Ball franchise. The name "Kuririn" (クリリン) is derived from the Japanese word for "chestnut" (栗, "kuri"), which is a nod to his round head, resembling a chestnut.
"Kulilin" English spellings seen within the manga (yet never spoken by any characters, or named in Japan) is a direct reference and gag based on the FUNI bastardization of turning his name from "Kuririn" to "Krillin". The fact that this has to be explained to you shows you are not a serious person.
He has always been referred to as "Kuririn" just as 17 & 18 have always been referred to as Jinzōningen aka Artificial Human which is Android / Robot.
you see the Japanese word Jinzoningen, which is not the English word Android
Jinzoningen = Android; you won't find anything or anyone disputing this. "Artificial Human" is a long way of saying Android/Robot the same way "Falling Cloud Water" is saying "Rain."
Every relevant official English translator of the anime and manga, apparently.
Lmfao VIZ is also a "relevant official English translator of the manga" - good luck citing VIZ-isms (which uses "Artificial Humans" and "Androids"...because "Artificial Humans" ARE Android/Robot LOL).
They were always referred to as Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans, which is why Vegeta treats them all as "wind-up dolls", tells 18 she isn't a "real woman, merely a thing" (no correction), and why Goku is shocked to know 18 (which to him is nothing more than a murderous wind-up doll/robot) can have children.
All while Toriyama makes the point multiple times they are fundamentally different from actual Androids/Robots like 16, twice in chapter 351.
So it was beyond just translations, the actual characters KNEW them as Androids/Robots and treated them as such until they had to be educated. Their names have NEVER changed from Androids No. 17 and 18 in Japan.
This running gag is apparently too complex for you to handle.
native German
Blocked for wrongly arguing about 2 different languages you clearly know nothing about.
his name isn't directly written out in the original Japanese manga as "Kuririn"
Indeed it isnt, it's written out as Kulilin.
"Kulilin" English spellings seen within the manga (yet never spoken by any characters, or named in Japan) is a direct reference and gag based on the FUNI bastardization of turning his name from "Kuririn" to "Krillin"
It's impressive that Toriyama was already parodying the Funimation dub several years before it would even be made, in the Namek arc. To be clear, since you seem to be confused about this:
Jinzoningen = Android; you won't find anything or anyone disputing this.
Except the actual most widespread translations of the anime and manga, I suppose.
Yes Vegeta is racist against jinzoningen and the characters don't know how exactly #17 and #18 work out of the box, this is incredible.
Blocked for correctly arguing about 2 different languages you are clearly very knowledgeable about.
Ironically we don't even receive notifications for this thread, we have both been intentionally going back here to continue the fight. It has had me very waku waku, manzoku you might even say.
The manga and anime BOTH use Jinzonongen aka Artificial Human. Cyborg and Android mean very different things and are not interchangeable. 17, 18, and 20 are Cyborgs. 16, 19, and 8 are Androids. Jinzoningen/Artificial Human covers both so it is preferable.
Cyborg and Android mean very different things and are not interchangeable.
Correct, which makes your next statement utterly incorrect:
Jinzoningen/Artificial Human covers both so it is preferable.
Jinzoningen is strictly "Android / Robot /Artificial Human". A cyborg is a human who has been enhanced. It also has its own word in Japanese. It cannot be an Android, nor a Robot, nor an Artificial Human. Because it will always be an Organic Human.
If everyone agrees that "Artificial Human" is indeed "Android" or that it's all "interchangeable", it's silly to go with the longer lesser known name than Android.
They are known worldwide as Jinzoningen aka Androids No. 17 & 18, as I've already proven in this thread. No translation needed. Japan has spelled their names as literally "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
I do not agree that Artificial Human is the same as android. Android is more specific than artificial human. Cyborg and Android are different things both of which different ones of the Artificial Humans are. 17 and 18 are technologically modified humans making them Cyborgs. 16 and 19 are purely robotic making them Androids. Both are Humans that are artificial in some way, but are not the same. They both fall under the umbrella of Artificial Human, but are not both Androids as you claim. Cell is neither an android nor a cyborg, yet he is still artificial in that he was grown in a test tube also making him an artificial human. He is not mechanical in any way so to call Cell who is described as a Jinzoningen an Android is just wrong. Calling him an artificially created being is not however. Therefore Artificial Human or Jinzoningen. If you want to get specific you can call the Androids that if you want, but 17 and 18 are not Androids. They are Cyborgs.
I do not agree that Artificial Human is the same as android.
Everyone agrees jinzoningen is Android. Artificial Human is a long way of saying Android. Even Japan, who published 17 and 18 as Android 17 and Android 18.
Android is more specific than artificial human.
It's all synthetic / man-made + humanoid. Literally all the same thing. You won't find a single example of an Android or humanoid robot not being an artificial human, and no examples of any artificial humans being referred to as something other than Android / humanoid robot. It's literally all the same exact thing.
Cyborg and Android are different things both of which different ones of the Artificial Humans are. 17 and 18 are technologically modified humans making them Cyborgs.
And Akira Toriyama always explained that, every time he referred to Android 17 & 18. He still kept naming them Android 17 & 18, as seen everywhere in Japan involving 17 & 18.
16 and 19 are purely robotic making them Androids. Both are Humans that are artificial in some way, but are not the same. They both fall under the umbrella of Artificial Human, but are not both Androids as you claim.
Yes, they are both synthetic/man-made + humanoid + robotic. Androids, Robots, Artificial. 16 and 19 are absolutely Androids, since they are human-inspired/human-shaped robots. That's what an android is: Humanoid Robot.
Cell is neither an android nor a cyborg, yet he is still artificial in that he was grown in a test tube also making him an artificial human. He is not mechanical in any way so to call Cell who is described as a Jinzoningen an Android is just wrong. Calling him an artificially created being is not however. Therefore Artificial Human or Jinzoningen.
Cell would have to have an entire new word created for him, instead of trying to incorrectly label him as Jinzoningen. Because he is entirely different than Nos. 16 & 19 (androids) and Nos. 17 & 18 (cyborgs).
While he is artificial/man-made/labgrown etc., he isn't really humanoid (more bug-like than anything) so "Artificial Human" doesn't not fit Cell either. He is a bio-engineered bug lifeform.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Nos. 17 & 18 are named "Android 17" and "Android 18". Jinzoningen will always mean either Android, Robot or Artificial/man-made Human(oid). Despite Cell and cyborgs 17 and 18 not technically being jinzoningens whatsoever.
If you want to get specific you can call the Androids that if you want, but 17 and 18 are not Androids. They are Cyborgs.
This is correct. We're talking about their names here. They are known in Japan as Android 17 and Android 18, in name only. Despite their biology being cyborgs. Akira Toriyama acknowledges this discrepancy in-universe within the manga via character dialog, in manga side blurbs, and the interviews within the colored manga which he did way later around 2013. He always named them Jinzoningen and then clarified they are actually technically cyborg types.
It's pretty much a meme/quirk at this point he never bothered to fix, much like "Dragon Ball SUPER: Super Hero"
Great mod! I do think I may have found an error though. When Son Goku fights Garlic Jr Garlic says "Son Goku" in the Japanese audio, but the subtitles still just say "Goku." Not really a big deal. Again amazing mod! I've been loving it!
Great mod. One thing I noticed was you kept the name "Dabura" and not "Dabra". Maybe a small change? Also, not sure how comprehensive you were, but when playing story mode, I noticed some untranslated names like "Krillin" and "King Kai" in the subtitles. But not in the like, title for the characters when talking. If that makes sense? But I understand that would have been a lot of work, probably.
I will make the change for Dabra I will also go over the Episodes to see if I forgot any changes. Can you tell me what lines you see the issues on? Thanks
I saw Frieza and King Kai throught playing the battle with Goku and Freeza when Goku goes Super Saiyan. I also saw Frieza used when playing Gohan's story when he fights the revived Freeza. I also saw terms like Supreme Kai used in the Gohan Black portion of Gohan's story mode.
72 comments
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488
A few things I would change on this mod would be human-based models like #17 & #18 to "Androids" (while keeping the actual synthetic beings like #16 & #19 as "Artificial Humans"), as it was in the manga's original dialog. I actually can't find where "Artificial Humans" originated from - likely as a full literal translation being an English fandom thing?
I believe "Android" is fairly consistently used in Japan, and basically every time Dr. Gero or Cell refers to them within the manga. Examples;
Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P12.1
Cell: “Human life extract alone isn’t enough for me to reach my perfect form. I need to merge with two important, particular life forms...The computer told me of these two particular life forms…….Dr. Gero’s creations—Androids No.17 and No.18!”
Also, I noticed you restored the 8000 line said by Vegeta. This Strength Checker thread could be used as an excellent resource to update all lines to be said as they originally were in the manga, regarding battle power. I think that would be absolutely incredible.
Again, amazing job!
Incorrect. The very reputable Herms from the Kazenshuu forums knows Japanese and translated every power-scaling line of the original DB manga into English.
Because you missed it, read this thread and search for terms like "Android" using CTRL+F:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488
Within that thread, you can see he's labeled them "Android No. #" and has direct lines from Trunks, Tien, Cell, Dr. Gero etc. referring to them as Androids. No VIZ-ism whatsoever.
Correct, and if anything, the official VIZ translation is the only manga iteration they're called "Artificial Humans":
https://s21.mbbcdn.com/res/manga/dragon-ball-digital-colored-comics/chapter-347-a-sound-of-thunder/0cab2b3dea89_3.jpg?acc=DT7qbQNicxawhDgxbQ5TrA&exp=1730944800
This next page is directly contested by Herms' translation vs. Viz's:
https://s12.mbbcdn.com/res/manga/dragon-ball-digital-colored-comics/chapter-356-kamis-conditions/618252f3ed61_11.jpg?acc=8BfJfEB15-wfmbEj2PB3Rw&exp=1730944800
What is actually said:
Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”
Like I said, I'm not bothered by the "Artificial Humans" at all and don't care if it isn't changed. It IS good enough. I think both can be used, as I suggested in a way to differentiate the 16's from the models like 17 & 18 etc.
There is no "contest" about it, it is a Japanese word, there is no English word intended in the dialogue.
Artificial Human is the literal translation which has the best coverage for the concept that it actually entails in the story, whereas Android is too specific and incorrect for most characters classified as Jinzoningen. In another series, translating jinzoningen to android may be preferable, but DB is unique in this regard. DB also has its own definition of ningen/human in the first place, further reinforcing the appropriateness of this phrase.
Okay so you DO know who "Daimao" aka Steve Simmons is and what he's actually translated? He translated the Japanese anime script for the FUNimation’s official subtitles for the entire English anime. A script that often differs from the manga itself.
The manga standard, which absolutely supersedes the anime standard, has always been "Cyborg" aka Android. "Artificial Humans" can be used to describe them as whole because it's very vague.
Herms has done the manga translation with the assistance of many other Japanese speakers and translators assisting him to conserve the dialect as closely as possible, in this "new era" context, which the community has unanimously agreed are very accurate. Herms went with Android because it's what Akira Toriyama called them in the original manga.
Except Simmons also translated "Jinzoningen" into "Cyborgs" in both the original DB Z subtitles and the newer DB KAI subs as well:
DB Kai episode 57, Japanese sub, minute 13:52.
In any case, all original depictions of the Dragon Ball story are in Japanese, and within them only the Japanese word Jinzoningen is used. This could, in general usage elsewhere, mean "android" 99% of the time, but DB uses it in a sense that strictly contradicts the possible meaning of the English word "android". In light of this, a vaguer literal translation proves more appropriate. I even grant that a first-time viewer is intended to expect androids at the beginning of the arc(since the Gero #20 thing is a reveal) but this is not relevant to any of us who have known this story for most of our lives, and so it is more important to keep the terminology consistent overall.
If officialism is resorted to, the majority of official translations that at least attempt faithfulness(ie, discounting dubs) opt for Artificial Human. Of these, my preferred one - the Steve Simmons subtitles - does as well. Personally, I would actually leave it untranslated, if only because the literal translation has many more syllables, but that is arbitrary. I'm uninterested in any attempts to back positions by invoking the names of e-celebs, regardless of how many Japanese people may or may not have been involved. They do not know anything we don't on this matter.
Not sure if serious. Akira Toiryama's words and vision for the official Dragon Ball history and terms are true canon when it comes to the Dragon Ball franchise, and sits at the very top. Very bizarre comment to leave on a mod page where authentic terms replace the incorrect ones...based on the source of it all (the MANGA, which is what the ANIME is based off of).
Which is incorrect in the first place, HENCE the existence of this mod correcting the things it does.
Not only that, you say the game is based on the [japanese] anime, which once again has Simmons refer to 17 & 18 as "Cyborgs" AKA "Androids" in DB Kai episode 57, Japanese sub, minute 13:52.
At the end of the day, every single reputable source from Akira Toriyama to horrible VIZ to the greats Simmons/Herms to Toei & Bandai etc. has referred to them as "Cyborgs" AKA "Androids" - not that any of the other sources mattered anyway since Akira Toriyama specifically has "Androids" in his official manga (as Herms and Simmons both agree).
There are things reflecting Toriyama's vision not found in the manga(the Dai Kaio, for example) and the manga has no special status within the treatment of the franchise. All DB tertiary media, including this game, take after animated content rather than an independent interpretation of the manga.
As I already said the anime is not directly based on the manga at all times, as the anime is often made from production material submitted by Toriyama before it is published in the manga. Toriyama also occasionally adjusts the manga to respect Toei's output, i.e. Bardock being incorporated into the Freeza Saga and the Potara merger of Goku and Vegeta being renamed to Vegetto from its originally intended Gogeta.
The "manga primacy" agenda you are presenting here is only really relevant for storyline continuity discussions, as Toriyama tends only to maintain continuity to his own work, but even this is increasingly less true in recent years(and with Daima...).
None of this even has anything to do with what we were arguing initially but it is interesting nonetheless. Btw, where do Tullece and Yi Xing Long appear in the manga?
I decided to actually entertain your Kai timestamp there, and this is hilarious - Trunks is describing them as cyborgs in terms of what they substantively are, and the subs literally use Artificial Humans in the very same line! Not only is this completely irrelevant to the argument, it goes against your point. If "jinzoningen" was exclusively intended to mean "android", why is Trunks himself describing them as cyborgs, a very different thing? This proves that "Android" is an outright incorrect translation, which wasn't even necessarily what I was asserting(just that it is unsuitable for DB in particular).
The dispute is not about whether #17 and #18 literally are cyborgs(they are), but their name, which is consistently rendered as Artificial Human in all cases. You won't find Simmons breaking this rule.
The Japanese word Jinzoningen is consistently rendered as Artificial Human in all the relevant translations, including the ones you are trying to cite. #8, #16 and #19 are still literally androids, and #17, #18 and #20 are literally cyborgs, but they all bear the same Jinzoningen name. Cell is also considered a Jinzoningen and is neither of these things. And that is exactly why the phrase Artificial Human is preferred to refer to all inclusively.
1. Never said he didn't say "Artificial Human"
2. He specifies what kind of Jinzōningen / Artificial Humans they are by calling them "Cyborgs" (this is incorrect btw):
Cyborg (改造人間) would be "kaizouningen". "Cyborg" is not under the umbrella of "Jinzōningen / Jinzouningen", so no it isn't "inclusive," it's incorrect. "Android" and "robot" are inclusive within jinzouningen. So by default, they are named Androids specifically, if you are going to refer to them as Jinzouningen (which you already conceded).
There is actual in-universe lore that would make them far more robotic (Androids) in nature than just simply enhanced humans (Cyborgs) - however, it is all irrelevant because Akira Toriyama said they are technically cyborgs, and named them Androids. That's why I don't mind Cyborg or Android (as Herms and Simmons both understood what I'm talking about).
Any of it is better than "Artificial Human #17" is my point. That's like saying "Organic Human Tenshinhan".
As I said, Japan has always called them Androids:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artbookisland/16231443380/in/photostream/
Akira Toriyama as well, since he purposely avoided naming them cyborgs and also had the characters in his manga treat them as androids. Who knows why. Trolling or just didn't bother to make the distinction in the manga, again who knows. But they were always named Androids. EVEN when he acknowledged they were technically "cyborgs", he insisted in naming them Androids still:
https://imgur.com/ouZT0ID
Incorrect, I just showed you an official Japanese page and Akira Toriyama's own words where they're called, specifically, "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
You just read Akira Toriyama make the distinction and still name them Androids. This holds consistent throughout his original manga. I know why Simmons chose "cyborg", because it is what they are. But it is not what they are named.
When you pile up the evidence from the 17 & 18 official lore, plus their official names within the manga and Japanese official media, their names (after Lapis / Lazuli) were always "Android No. 17" & "Android No.18." Literally even when Akira Toriyama says they are technically cyborg types.
Perhaps you should take this fight to the Japanese wikipedia administration.
Trunks himself describes them as cyborgs(not kaizoningen, but saibogo as an English loanword) in your previously cited scene, when the idea of them is first introduced to the story.
The actual androids are #8, #16 and #19, that is not disputed in any case. The crux of the issue is that the characters under the Jinzoningen name differ greatly in their actual nature, and Artificial Human is the only phrase nonspecific enough to cover them all adequately.
TBH, if we don't translate things like "Majin" we probably shouldn't translate this at all either by the same logic, but Artificial Human is still the way to go if at all. Japanese Wikipedia translates the term that way, after all.
You're insisting on this 1:1 Jinzoningen = Android lexical equivalence that just isn't the case. This is rather like saying "genki" always means "spirit" and has no further nuance. Toriyama writing Jinzoningen has in itself no implications for anything in English, the translation occurs entirely independently from him. It is not like he has "Android" written in English on the characters(which is used as evidence for things like the spelling of Boo and Bulma, but even this receives pushback sometimes).
No need, when actual official dictionaries (far more accurate than wikipedia lmfao) all say "jinzouningen = "android, robot, artificial/man-made human". Japanese speakers also vindicate this, such as Herms. Go tell Herms he's "wrong".
The term for "cyborg" is "kaizouningen" and it appears nowhere when naming or referring to 17 & 18 as a whole in the manga. Toriyama absolutely declared they are cyborg types, but that ain't what he named them.
That was an understandable liberty taken by the anime staff (not Simmons, who just translated the anime script) based on Akira Toriyama declaring they are indeed cyborg types.
Any reference to "kaizouningen" or "cyborg" is anime-only. And yet I am not opposed to naming them such, over "Artificial Human 17/18." (Still prefer naming them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" as they've been established in Japan and in the manga).
You are making my point for me. For some reason, Akira Toriyama chose to make the term "Android" their "surname", despite them being technically cyborg types. Chalk it up to his carefree attitude, a quirk, or his "ignorance", it doesn't matter. Their established names are "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
The whole thing stems from a disconnect between knowing what they technically are and feeling wrong for "misnaming" them. They are cyborg types, yet are referred to as "人造人間"/Jinzōningen which explicitly excludes kaizouningen/cyborgs, so translators will try to keep things vague/neutral by opting for the vaguest definition of "Artificial Human" when in reality it's always defaulted to "Android" (in name only).
lmao that's not actually how that works. Jinzouningen doesn't need anyone in Japan to understand English, they're telling you in their language what they're referring to. "Android, robot, artificial/man-made human".
Every Japanese & English speaker knows this, and they've all understood jinzoningen in sci-fi context to be Android over "robot" and "Artificial Human". Hence why they named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material (which has not been translated whatsoever, therefore not susceptible to "errors"):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artbookisland/16231443380/in/photostream/
Those are liabilities by translators, not Akira Toriyama nor Japan. They spelled "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" perfectly, many times within their many raw Japanese official material. Jinzōningen also spelled perfectly as "人造人間18号" within the manga as well.
Which literally means "android, robot, artificial/man-made human".
I don't have to insist on anything, I just showed you 2 official sources where their actual names are printed as "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18". One of which is from the creator himself who straight up tells you the characters named "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" are "technically cyborgs" and then goes on to refer to them as "Jinzōningen" throughout his entire manga.
You can choose to ignore actual definitions, official Japanese pages and now the creator's own words, but the fact remains they've always been named "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in Japan and in the manga.
As I said, "Artificial Human" literal translation comes from likely cognitive dissonance because they are indeed Cyborgs and not at all Androids, it feels utterly "wrong". But there is overwhelming evidence that their names are established as "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" from day 1.
I'm glad we've established that Kulilin is the character's actual official author-intended name and Karin is blue
lmfao nice cope by trying to drop "android" from the "Jinzōningen" definition, but it's not gonna work.
Describing "kaizouningen" and trying to tack that definition to "Jinzōningen" isn't gonna work either, but you already knew that.
Another weak cope. If "Jinzōningen" magically took on a "new"/alternate meaning within the DB universe to include "Cyborg", the anime staff and Simmons wouldn't need to specify 17 & 18 were "cyborgs". It would be a given just by calling them "Jinzōningen".
The Zero Ningen Project includes all lower living things/mortals because Ningen can already mean both "human being" AND its Chinese reference that means “societies” or “this [lower] world”, seperate from the afterlife, so ridding the universe of all lower [mortal] societies can very easily be understood as genociding all living things. Which is why Ningen can include all life like humans, Saiyans and Namekians etc. by default.
Jinzōningen has always had its default definition within the DB universe as its had throughout all of sci-fi, no alteration whatsoever. Which is once again "android, robot, artificial/man-made human", which once again has fell back to ANDROID over "robot" and "artificial human" as official material shows when naming "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artbookisland/16231443380/in/photostream/
Otherwise, if "Jinzōningen" already had "cyborg" under it, then EVERYONE would've gone with "CYBORG No. 17" over "Artificial Human No. 17 "
So that is now 3 official sources naming them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18", plus Herms as a reputable translator within the community and VegettoEX also agreeing with "Android". That's 5 now.
Everything else you said is irrelevant and doesn't disprove the fact that 5 different sources, both official and unofficial, have named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
You lose.
Actually now that I think about it, are we sure #8 is really a robot canonically? I think this is only explicitly a point in filler. Frankenstein's Monster is an organic jinzoningen, so it would stand to reason if #8 were too. He donates genki in both Z and Super somehow.
The ningen thing isn't just relevant for Zamasu, though that brought it to the forefront. In the manga already, Ginyu for example describes himself as a ningen. It's extra convenient that by keeping this word, we have a more internally coherent terminology.
My native dub(the German one) actually does translate them all as "cyborg" indiscriminately, even #8 afaik, which I hate but it did happen there. Not a fan.
Still no rebuttal to Kulilin btw.
Strawman
Strawman
Of course you do in the form of Jinzōningen but you just choose to cope by ignoring it. Thankfully the fandom, and the official staff all recognize the word to default to Android hence why they named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18" in official raw Japanese material:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artbookisland/16231443380/in/photostream/
Factually incorrect, and if you argue otherwise, then you are conceding to my point that Androids or Cyborgs 17 & 18 are better than "Artificial Humans". Since "it's all the same" anyway, right?
The anime staff and plenty of translators within the fandom made the error based on Akira Toriyama's biological breakdown of them, which influenced/carried over to the anime's script and thus Simmons' translation. The crux of the whole problem is that they erroneously went with "Artificial Human" when translating Jinzōningen, instead of "Android", thinking it was "neutral" enough that they could then contradict themselves by specifying they were "cyborgs" in the very next line.
""They are Artificial Humans born of this earth. Otherwise known as Cyborgs." is a contradiction and makes no sense. Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans are NOT Cyborgs, and Cyborgs are not Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans.
Further contradicting themselves, they go on to have Trunks say: "The one who created them was a former mad scientist of the red ribbon army, Dr Gero"
Cyborgs cannot be created, only enhanced. See: Mecha Freeza. Dr. Gero "creating" them is a contradiction because he actually kidnapped them and enhanced/turned them into Cyborgs.
They should've made the distinction between their names and their biology, but they chose to say they are both created as Androids and Cyborgs.
Akira Toriyama is on record calling them Jinzōningen and once again specifying they are indeed actually non-robot/technically cyborg-types.
It's a quirk/troll at this point. Exactly how "Dragon Ball SUPER: SUPER Hero" came to be. He knew it was an error, just didn't give a damn enough to correct it or simply thought it would be funny.
Considering there is absolutely ZERO difference between Android and Artificial Human, who in their right mind would opt for Artificial Human over Android in naming 17 and 18 when once again Japan has ZERO instances where they've named them "Artificial Human" and ample evidence showing they've named them "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18"?
Herms understands this.
Actually, the oldest uses of the word android in English refer to organic artificial humans, ironically. If this sense were understood today the word would actually be fine. This is one of the differences to the Japanese Jinzoningen.
Besides, it is not as though Trunks knows their personal backstory. I'm surprised he even knew they were cyborgs.
Which is another term for Android, which is what they were named in Japan, specifically "Android No.17" and "Android No.18”.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artbookisland/16231443380/in/photostream/
Now let's take a look at your "relevant official English translator of the manga" shall we?:
https://www.viz.com/read/manga/dragon-ball-z-volume-14/product/131
Here within your precious "professional translation", it says:
"Our heroes' worst fears have come true: androids #17 and #18,who in time traveler Trunks's future have already destroyed the world, have been activated! And along with them is #16, an android even Trunks doesn't know! With Goku almost dead from a virus, only Super Saiyan Vegeta has a chance against them--unless Piccolo's plan to merge with his ancient enemy Kami-sama will make him the new strongest being on Earth! But something even worse than androids has come back from the future..."
Thanks for playing.
You keep clinging onto this irrelevant strawman as if his name isn't directly written out in the original Japanese manga as "Kuririn" and referred to as such in the entire Dragon Ball franchise. The name "Kuririn" (クリリン) is derived from the Japanese word for "chestnut" (栗, "kuri"), which is a nod to his round head, resembling a chestnut.
"Kulilin" English spellings seen within the manga (yet never spoken by any characters, or named in Japan) is a direct reference and gag based on the FUNI bastardization of turning his name from "Kuririn" to "Krillin". The fact that this has to be explained to you shows you are not a serious person.
He has always been referred to as "Kuririn" just as 17 & 18 have always been referred to as Jinzōningen aka Artificial Human which is Android / Robot.
Keep coping hard buddy
https://imgur.com/HNwF5BJ
https://imgur.com/tF0BvWs
Jinzoningen = Android; you won't find anything or anyone disputing this. "Artificial Human" is a long way of saying Android/Robot the same way "Falling Cloud Water" is saying "Rain."
Lmfao VIZ is also a "relevant official English translator of the manga" - good luck citing VIZ-isms (which uses "Artificial Humans" and "Androids"...because "Artificial Humans" ARE Android/Robot LOL).
They were always referred to as Androids/Robots/Artificial Humans, which is why Vegeta treats them all as "wind-up dolls", tells 18 she isn't a "real woman, merely a thing" (no correction), and why Goku is shocked to know 18 (which to him is nothing more than a murderous wind-up doll/robot) can have children.
All while Toriyama makes the point multiple times they are fundamentally different from actual Androids/Robots like 16, twice in chapter 351.
So it was beyond just translations, the actual characters KNEW them as Androids/Robots and treated them as such until they had to be educated. Their names have NEVER changed from Androids No. 17 and 18 in Japan.
This running gag is apparently too complex for you to handle.
Blocked for wrongly arguing about 2 different languages you clearly know nothing about.
To be clear, since you seem to be confused about this:
Yes Vegeta is racist against jinzoningen and the characters don't know how exactly #17 and #18 work out of the box, this is incredible.
Correct, which makes your next statement utterly incorrect:
Jinzoningen is strictly "Android / Robot /Artificial Human". A cyborg is a human who has been enhanced. It also has its own word in Japanese. It cannot be an Android, nor a Robot, nor an Artificial Human. Because it will always be an Organic Human.
If everyone agrees that "Artificial Human" is indeed "Android" or that it's all "interchangeable", it's silly to go with the longer lesser known name than Android.
They are known worldwide as Jinzoningen aka Androids No. 17 & 18, as I've already proven in this thread. No translation needed. Japan has spelled their names as literally "Android No. 17" and "Android No. 18".
Everyone agrees jinzoningen is Android. Artificial Human is a long way of saying Android. Even Japan, who published 17 and 18 as Android 17 and Android 18.
It's all synthetic / man-made + humanoid. Literally all the same thing. You won't find a single example of an Android or humanoid robot not being an artificial human, and no examples of any artificial humans being referred to as something other than Android / humanoid robot. It's literally all the same exact thing.
And Akira Toriyama always explained that, every time he referred to Android 17 & 18. He still kept naming them Android 17 & 18, as seen everywhere in Japan involving 17 & 18.
Yes, they are both synthetic/man-made + humanoid + robotic. Androids, Robots, Artificial. 16 and 19 are absolutely Androids, since they are human-inspired/human-shaped robots. That's what an android is: Humanoid Robot.
Cell would have to have an entire new word created for him, instead of trying to incorrectly label him as Jinzoningen. Because he is entirely different than Nos. 16 & 19 (androids) and Nos. 17 & 18 (cyborgs).
While he is artificial/man-made/labgrown etc., he isn't really humanoid (more bug-like than anything) so "Artificial Human" doesn't not fit Cell either. He is a bio-engineered bug lifeform.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Nos. 17 & 18 are named "Android 17" and "Android 18". Jinzoningen will always mean either Android, Robot or Artificial/man-made Human(oid). Despite Cell and cyborgs 17 and 18 not technically being jinzoningens whatsoever.
This is correct. We're talking about their names here. They are known in Japan as Android 17 and Android 18, in name only. Despite their biology being cyborgs. Akira Toriyama acknowledges this discrepancy in-universe within the manga via character dialog, in manga side blurbs, and the interviews within the colored manga which he did way later around 2013. He always named them Jinzoningen and then clarified they are actually technically cyborg types.
It's pretty much a meme/quirk at this point he never bothered to fix, much like "Dragon Ball SUPER: Super Hero"
How do we feel about changing "Dr. Wheelo" to Dr. Uiro?
I'm kinda leaning toward Dr. Uiro because I'm conflicted with the different spellings in the English version
If we can keep Vegeta over "Bejita", Willow keeps it all more consistent than "Dr. Uiro"
I will also go over the Episodes to see if I forgot any changes. Can you tell me what lines you see the issues on?
Thanks