I've been out of touch with the community for a hot second so I'm only just now hearing about this. Seeing names like Eralyne, LaughingLeader, and ShinyHobo on here lends a ton of weight to this letter. I hope things are improving and I'd love to know more about this.
«Open Faerun seeks to help raise those concerns, and strengthen the ties that bind the Community and its Management Team.» So, this (another social protest for the sake of social protest).. thing seeks to strenghten bonds by raising concerns. Hmm, I see the logic there. Endorse war to end all wars. Yay!
Something I don't quite understand about this open letter is, upon reading, my first impression about the main problems modders have is that there is very little official support within the modding community - I understand that, but if many of the problems are down to modders being harassed by players about mods breaking, why not just create your own modder-run community so that they can moderate and enforce the boundaries that modders wish to be implemented themselves?
If every modder who signed this open letter left the official Larian discord, which they claim to not be supported properly, and created their own server purely for the purpose of modding and fostering a community run by modders, for modders and mod-users, not only would this be an explicit and impactful act of protest, it would also mean that these modders can enforce boundaries between themselves and mod-users instantaneously. The complaints that no official moderator is handling the swathes of players harassing people about hotfixes breaking the game, that no one is there to say 'We are investigating things after the recent patch and will update things ASAP', that there is no one to discipline harassment and belligerent behaviour, would all be solved.
I do understand the desire to have a more open line of communication between modders and Larian, however I feel like the disdain towards them is somewhat misguided as it is not necessarily Larian's responsibility to take care of the modding community. Looking towards Larian to take care of us, instead of taking care of ourselves, just seems like a waste of time and energy. The toxicity in the community is very real, and I don't blame modders at all for being frustrated with it on top of how much work they put into fixing the mods that get broken after each big patch, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether it's an official Larian employee saying 'Please wait, this update will break mods, we are working on it' or a community-picked moderator saying the same thing. We know mods get broken with each patch, it should be up to us to make sure our community members are treating modders with respect when these things happen.
In regards to the line of communication with Larian, I do get it, I just don't particularly see what the difference is between them saying, 'We're still working things out', and not saying it, really is. To me, it's very heavily implied from the fact that they've never offered official mod support before and the fact that they have stated they wish for mod support to extend to consoles too, that they are undertaking a big task in uncharted waters and have a lot of plates to spin and balls to juggle. I don't take their silence as ignorance, rather than an extension of previously mentioned statements that they *are* working on things and are continuing to do so. I don't think it's necessary to repeat this multiple times, as I do trust Larian to follow through eventually once their priorities allow for it. We have to remember that everything that gets worked on, including mod support, is something that Larian has to actively organise and pay workers for their time on. We know that Larian is not a developer who overextends their influence on their developers, they believe in fair work and fair pay, and they also have said that they wish for their vision of the game to be completed before they work on anything else so that they can have a well deserved break. I know modders want this support and this line of communication, but I do genuinely think that patience is key and that we should at least wait for them to meet their goals (finishing adding content to the vanilla base game to complete their vision) is the best way to go about it before trying to put this pressure on them to prioritise mods.
There's a lot of moving parts that go into developing a game, with a lot of divisions working in tandem with each big patch. I think asking for them to add on another division that would further complicate matters, adding extra strain both physically and financially on the workers and the development cycle, would actually harm the progression of Larian/Modder synchronisation in the long run. If each division had to compile all of their patch progress alongside the possible things that would be broken, as well as the scope for potential modding in the future within those divisions such as map making, model import/export, audio, coding, etc, and send them to an official mod-community parlance manager for distribution to modders, I think the frequency of updates would be much slower and the transition to full mod support would also take much much longer. I just don't think it's realistic to ask or expect this from Larian until the big patches have finished rolling out.
I have to agree with this User. Even with the now unveiled plans for future mod support, you guys should definitely start your own Discord Server atleast. Alot of Modding Communities for other games have done this, and it only has benefited creators and users in the long run. Nexus just isn't the best platform for Extended Mod support and taking moderation into your own hands is the obvious thing to do.
Me, a avid mod user who finally got around to BG3 after doing my best to not take in any news or spoilers this spring:
"ugh this UI for the bags is so small that's it! I'm going to mod this game"
*Takes a hesitant plung into the nexus to find out more without overly spoiling*
"Oh look at that cute Owl Bear logo I wonder what that's all about"
*Catches up on months worth of 'drama'*
"Oh!" ... "Ooooooh" ... "That's not... why would you... but..."
Still haven't fully caught up I would say but just want to offer up my voice in general support. To in part help show that we aren't all trolls here that want to start a hissy fit the moment that something that is being provided for free (yes even including the donations) gets interrupted in the short term.
In case I was unclear just now. I support the sentiments expressed by the letter and do not think of them as being a big ask. The Open Letter was well writen so that even someone who had no idea of what was going on the past few months (me)/years(also me) might quickly grasp the key points.
I also want to take a moment to talk about what struck me more than anything was that I truly could tell that the authors cared for the game and the studio itself.
I have more thoughts but as Gale said: "Even I am getting tired of hearing my own voice" so I will leave it at this and a thank you for all the members on here big, small, modders, or players. I am glad that we have fostered a community that allows for the freedom to be a complete idiot in these comments and have bad takes on here without getting silenced.
Coming from the Skyrim modding community, I'm more than aware of this kind of problem. I also have example of game (much smaller) where a dev helped (a little) the modding community.
I'm still amazed that game company haven't acknowledge that the modding community help a lot to keep a game alive (and sell) in the long run. A few example : Skyrim, Fallout, Mass effect, The Witch, Cyberpunk.
I'm working on a mod but I'm on stand-by after the last Community Update. The promised community tool might help with some problem that I'm working on, or do things in a cleaner way.
I cannot believe there are people having an issue with this when they are quite literally on Nexus mods, using mods by mod authors. Dually, it seems like a lot of the comments haven’t actually read the letter and think it’s just mod authors demanding official support and tools.
Mod authors asking for open communication about the status of mod support and the effects it has on their mods when Larian has openly accepted and fostered modding in their community is not some criminal or arrogant act like people are claiming it is.
Mod authors are absolutely justified in hiding their works until they’re satisfied with an answer, they’re also justified if they choose to not ever release them again. If every patch broke my mod entirely and I had a swath of mod users complaining to me to fix it, and the best the community team (whose entire position is to communicate with the community) can offer is “oh no, our patch broke a bunch of stuff!” Then it’s entirely reasonable to hide those mods until something improves, on any applicable front. If the argument is “if they don’t like it they can leave and just not make mods lol how entitled” then the argument is also “if you don’t like mod authors asking for communication to better mod the game, then don’t mod your game and don’t ever ask a mod author to update their mod for a patch again”
As long as the lines of communication between modders is present ...they have every reason to do whatever they want ..it's their mods. People are lucky very lucky ..cause they could've taken their mods off of nexus completely and turned them into paid mods... it's their mods . But if the mod broke other mods dontchu think both modders (the one who hide their mod and the one who mod is broken cause of it) should have some form of communication between themselves so both parties know.
Thou i totally get what u are coming at here. I get it it's their mods and they can do what they want with them, but in common courtesy and respect of both modders...(they don't have to ) Igmine yourself creating a mod for weeks u are proud of and using the assets of another modder ,even getting their permissions to do so. The mod goes up for about a month or so ..then all of a sudden your mod stops working out of no where. But the modder u had permissions by has sudden without letting u know (even thou u have open permissions) has taken their mod off without letting u know anything at all. Even thou u just talked with the modder a few days ago
How would u feel as a modder who has put in time, work on a very special mod to have it sudden ..be messed up and now u have to use more time because the assets ur mod depended on is gone? You might say oh well make another mod...but u must understand the works & time each and every modder here has put into their mods. Like ur boss saying youll get paid for your work.. you do 40-50 hours of work just for that boss to pay you in a gift card. or better yet fire u without pay and not even tell u just a pink slip How would u feel? Would u feel cheated ,lied to , disappointed , upset , confused (thats how some of these modders feel when this happen) because their wasnt a established line of constant communications... maybe i could be wrong someone let us know so we can get this Open Faerun situation nipped in the bud and start working together...again like the community was when this all started
I'm not being a jerk in saying it & yes every modder here on nexus can do whatever they want with their mods freely by the way...but just like the letter states... forms of communication should be open out of common courtesy (they don't have to but its just being nice to do so) The more open communications that's going on the more the community can be at peace and everyone on the same page erasing confusion.. t's a peace of mind thing. Maybe im coming off as rude and im sorry if it sounds like that but i can't think of any other way of putting it. I support the modders , but my main support is this site first and it's community (it's mines as well as many others investment) and i would do anything to keep communications between Nexus Admins, Nexus Modders, Nexus Supporters & Nexus users open.
Thank you for your comment aluska and your support of the Nexus modding community..not just for this game but for the site itself
I definitely don’t disagree with you @savior007, I think open communication goes both ways. I don’t upload any mods to Nexus, I only mod for myself and mostly just compatibility or patching cosmetic mods for my own use but I have had some dependencies break with the recent hiding mods and while it is frustrating, I totally understand why.
I think if major mod authors who have a lot of mods dependent on theirs are saying “hey, can we get a clear answer on what’s up or just a heads up that our mods are about to break for the umpteenth time so we can fix them ahead of time? Or a light at the end of the tunnel with official mod support or not?” And are asking for a tiny bit of communication, that’s not the worst thing and many game studios have very successfully opened that communication and drastically improved their community.
I agree with you that some kind of notice should maybe be said though if they will be hiding or removing their mods, because Nexus comments can be a vicious place for mod authors and if one mod’s removal breaks another, I agree that is unfair to those dependent mod authors who will also be getting swarmed with “fix it!” Comments and cannot fix it.
I think on a different note it’s also worth saying that I see a lot of comments saying “Larian already said mod support is coming so stop yapping” - This has been a long standing discussion before Larian said anything at all, and several of the previous major patches have brought it back about a few times now. It’s great they finally made a statement, but it shouldn’t take a wave of massive game-breaking issues introduced with a patch and mods for them to say something about it.
If the argument is “if they don’t like it they can leave and just not make mods lol how entitled” then the argument is also “if you don’t like mod authors asking for communication to better mod the game, then don’t mod your game and don’t ever ask a mod author to update their mod for a patch again”
Like BinaryMisfit said above, you are seeing only vocal minority and it is like %1 or %2 of the modding community but people here writes an open letter with the claim of being the modding community which seems naive at first but in truth it is actually a claim which doesn't even care the majority. Modders always claims that they are volunteers but if it is not demands (yes, there are some modders that really demands payments) they usually expects some donations and there are only bunch of modders they don't expect anything from modding.
I'm part of this community too and i don't agree with the open letter at all. This is just false positive that these mod-authors thinks that they are the majority of the modding community. I don't think majority agrees with them at all because majority don't even care at all. As an active mod user, i don't care if Larian will make a statement for official modding support or not tbh.
I'm a mod user since 2009, I am actively using mods almost all games i am playing( Divinity series, Sims, Fallout series, Elder Scrolls series, Witcher, Don't Starve, even addons for MMOs like WoW, ESO etc. and a lot of other games which would make the post longer and longer) and you can see my comments rarely or non-exsistent at all and I act like you described, if the mod isn't updated, first i am looking for web if there is an updated version; if there is not, i am trying to update the mod for myself without publishing it because i have no right to do that and I never go to the mod page to demand an update or a feature for the mod. I am looking at a mod, reading its description to learn what it is for and what the features are; then if i decided to use it, i am starting to use it. When it is broken with an update, i re-visit the page to look if there are some updates or not, if there is not, i disable the mod and move-away and re-visit to page from time to time to see if there is an update or not while searching for also another mod that works like the mod i was using. If there is not, I try to fix it by myself for own usage, if i can't handle, i just move on. My brother also doing the same thing and we speak sometimes about mods that is not updated like "oh, what a loss, did you see X-mod author wrote that x mod won't be updated anymore, could you find anything like it ?" We don't swarm mod's page like "update it ! fix it !" I believe there are more like us, well, i actually know there are a lot. i am using mods, making mods for my own usage (sharing with some of my friends and people i meet from web) and looking at game/mod community pages, as only being a viewer and i meet with people in games and around web who uses mods too. False positives around vocal majority is so common nowadays.
It is like, if i can't demand anything from a mod-publisher, a mod-publisher can't demand anything from game-publisher. My mindset completely works like this and i know that i can't demand anything from a mod-publisher and i shouldn't because people produces something on how they like, how they see things and it is what makes modding a game interesting and hilarious that some people looks the game from a different point of view than mine and creates something which i can't even imagine so i am using that.
I am also completely against to demand something from a game-publisher tbh. like "hey, i didn't like character bodies of this game, so change it" or "i didn't like x system, it can be better with y" kind of stuff. I mean, if you like, buy and play it, if you didn't, just play another game. We are not in 1990s that there are only 100 games. There are thousands of games so why there are demands ?
Sorry but even though I like games with mods and even though i adore some modders products, game companies don't really have to support modding or in debt to modders to communicate or do anything at all.
It may lead to this question. Modding might carry a game to last longer, like how it was for Skyrim or Morrowind. When you think marketing part, both games were a bless for Bethesda but also a curse too. They are still playable with mods, their mod supports made those games' longevity like a human lifetime, even longer. So people always compared other Bethesda games with them and kept modding them. It can cause a loss on sales.
Look at this from a company perspective. We are living in an era of consumerism. If you make a game for life with total mod support, it starts to make money for modders instead of you. People pays for mods instead of your games. If you would be a game developer and you have more plans for upcoming games and stuff, you want your consumers to be bored from your last game so they can buy your new game so for this, you need to keep your modding support on the sweet spot that also helps people modding and keep your game alive and also be limited so it won't last for a lifetime.
So the question here is, Do Larian wants their games to last for a lifetime or they want to produce more detailed games for future ? If you look at their last statements about how they don't want to produce more D&D games but produce a saga which belongs to completely themselves, they don't want BG3 to last for so long so they try to avoid mod support as much as possible imo.
This is just an echo chamber. I know there are a lot of person like me in the modding community. Not everyone has to communicate with each other. As I can't demand anything from a mod-publisher, game-publisher, They can't demand anything from me aswell. Please just stop with this "volunteering" fairytales. I know, most of you don't demand any donations or payment for your mods but in truth all of modders publishing their mods in expectation of some gains, if not for now, for future gains, like CVs for being able to recruited by game companies or other companies, or refferance points for future patreon pages etc. I know of only a bunch of people which won't pass my fingers amount that creates mods for no expectations at all. You can see them around with no patreon, kofi or any other page links attached to their mod description/user pages. They are really the honest volunteer ones. Kudos to them all !
And yeah, i litteraly and absolutely doing how you describe as a mod user and except the vocal minority, majority mostly move away when they see the mod isn't working anymore and look for another. so; Larian doesn't have to help anyone to gain anything from their products. They don't have to even communicate for modding support. Sorry, but this is the reality.
I don't care if some mod authors hides their mods as a reaction of bad communication at all tbh. It is just childish.
Disclaimer: English is not my first language...but I had to reply, because a few parts of your reply didn't sit right with me.
"it is like %1 or %2 of the modding community" but that 1-2% from looking at who has been signing that open letter are some of the biggest modders in the games. ImprovedUI, BG3 Mod Manager, BG3 Community Library/Compatibility Framework, 5e Spells? Just to name a few. Almost everyone on the list have mods that pratically everyone has in their game at the moment. So, tbh, I think their voices matter and that they should be allowed to express how their feel/opinion. Do their voices matter more than others? No? However, if their mods have become the backbone of the BG3 modding (I am talking when your mod is literally a requirement for other mods to work), I think that they should be listened to. I think that it would be a good idea to work with the modders to release the best official mod support tools, because modders also have a good knowledge of value for developers.
"I am also completely against to demand something from a game-publisher tbh."
Asking for better communication is not unheard of when a game allows mods. That kind of request happened in various communities and the ones that thrive the most are the ones when communication is very present. Patch 6 broke so much that just a little bit of a heads up would have been great especially. It must have been hell of modders to go through. On top of that, there's something called player feedback. Modders are great source for feedback. After all, many mods are created for better quality of life, so if there's great communication, developers are also getting great feedback off of it. Maybe, it's because of my background as a Simmer (someone who plays that non-game called The Sims), but if it wasn't for demands, a lot of major changes would have not be possible (for example, more skintones shades for a game that is supposed to represent real life).
"Look at this from a company perspective. We are living in an era of consumerism. If you make a game for life with total mod support, it starts to make money for modders instead of you. People pays for mods instead of your games. If you would be a game developer and you have more plans for upcoming games and stuff, you want your consumers to be bored from your last game so they can buy your new game so for this, you need to keep your modding support on the sweet spot that also helps people modding and keep your game alive and also be limited so it won't last for a lifetime."
I disagree, and I will have to break it into parts.
"If you make a game for life with total mod support, it starts to make money for modders instead of you."
That is not necessarily true but it's not necessarily wrong either.
I am saying this because BG3 brought in people from various gaming backgrounds thus accustomed to different modding cultures. I am one of those people. I have played various games, but one game that will always be dear to my heart is The Sims. TS4 is the current installment and modders make bank (some of the top modders can easily be making 200k+/year and maybe more). You would think that EA would see this and try to stop it, but, instead, EA saw an opportunity. They have been working with modders. Some of these top modders have seen their assets being added to the official game and started to let modders build things for them. It is not a "starts to make money for modders instead of you", it's recognizing that modders can be an asset that can be used to make the game better. It is also worth noting that EA was against modding for the longest of time or tried to cash in on mods (TS2/TS3 era) and failed. All I am saying is that giving total mod support is not a bad thing if the company can capitalize on the modders and establish some form of relationship. Everyone wins. (Also, I want to point out that there are a lot of flaws and issues...it's not all great...but I just wanted to point out that it's not a bad thing to have total mod support).
" People pays for mods instead of your games."
Yes, but, most of the time, you only buy the game once anyway so it's not a lost in my opinion. It doesn't matter if the people pay for the mods. Because it would have been the same if the game had 0 mod support. Unless, you put lootboxes, battleplasses, microtransaction, etc. The company only cashes in once anyways, so it's not much of an issue. The company made its money.
"If you would be a game developer and you have more plans for upcoming games and stuff, you want your consumers to be bored from your last game so they can buy your new game"
This, I highly disagree.
As a developer, you would like your consumers to buy your next game. But, you cannot guarantee that your customer will purchase your next game. The fact that Larian will not make the next BG game means that anyone who only bought BG3 because they are a fan of the franchise will potentially not buy their next project (they might think about it, but it will take a lot more to make them buy a game or maybe they will want a new game by Larian). On top of that, there is a reason why many developers are remastering their old games or making their old games more stable. They want to keep those consumers. They see money to be made. Skyrim has how many editions now...over 5 at least?
"you need to keep your modding support on the sweet spot that also helps people modding and keep your game alive and also be limited so it won't last for a lifetime"
That's a really odd take imo. But, I am looking at it from my data analyst perspective. Here is how I break down my analysis: Game is at least 5 years old. Modders are keeping it alive with their mods. Potential to look at what modders have been doing over the years. Potential to integrate these ideas into the game. Release a new remastered version of the game (and many times the remastered version has these ideas added, general the QoL ideas, into the game. Aside from that, there aren't any good or valid reasons why a company should limit their modding support tools. (Or, I just cannot see it) There are examples of games that have 0 modding support that are going to last a lifetime (look at all those Nintendo titles surviving because modders gave them life and, now, Nintendo is trying to cash in by releasing remastered version for the Switch).
"So the question here is, Do Larian wants their games to last for a lifetime or they want to produce more detailed games for future ? If you look at their last statements about how they don't want to produce more D&D games but produce a saga which belongs to completely themselves, they don't want BG3 to last for so long so they try to avoid mod support as much as possible imo."
That's...not how Larian has worked in the past. Divinity 2 had decent enough mod support, but there are issues due to various reason. Still, people (including me) are still playing Divinity 2 with the mods that still work and are maintained. Plus, Larian has a history of releasing one final update (the Definitive Edition) that is the complete version of the game. I don't think that Larian would have released a definitive edition if they didn't want people to keep on playing Divinity even if it is old. I believe that Larian is going to follow this path and do the same for BG3. However, we can argue that Divinity 2 is different because it's their original franchise. Still, I want to believe that Larian will release a Definitive Edition of BG3.
"I don't care if some mod authors hides their mods as a reaction of bad communication at all tbh. It is just childish."
It's not childish at all, because it got the attention of Larian and they responded. Larian actually cared and decided took into account various things in the open letter. For example, this section in the open letter about the modding channels in the official discord. Recently, changes were made and it is so much easier to get support from there. It was a much needed change especially for someone like me who mods. I want to be able to have access to information so that I can improve my modding abilities. They also hired more moderators for the discord server which is very welcomed.
Also, there's this little thing you wrote:
We don't swarm mod's page like "update it ! fix it !"
I don't disagree to this but I want to point out something. (I think it's about nuance?) One of the places where many modders can be contacted, the Larian official discord for instance. Every time mod breaks, within minutes, you have so many people asking if the Script Extender (for example) or ImprovedUI is fixed. Many people being angry. No patience, no critical thinking. Just many people just asking for the fix yet it hasn't been a couple of minutes. Are they a majority? No. But, these messages are there. And, it doesn't take many to wear someone down. It's just like how in a sea of thousands of positive messages, that one negative message will still leave an impact.
Do u want free mods or do u want modders to just make u pay for mods. Then you would be a lot more upset than u are now. Their request is simple just a open line of communication. which can in the short and long term?
Bring in Toolkits (Which makes it easier not just for current modders but bring in even new modders who can use those tools to make even more free mods)
If it wasn't for things like this All Bethesda games wouldn't have any toolkits. Cyberpunk wouldn't have any open sourced for free modders and easier ways to make more modders join the fray You would have to pay for mods (no free mods) Nexus Admins would literally ban anyone who tried to make free mods as well as many developers would have loads of lawsuits being able to sue anyone who made a mod for their games.
So look at this thru the eyes of a modder who just wants communication to bring in more tools to make it even easier to create mods. and even someone like urself will be able to use the tools yourself to also become a mod creator.... it's a future thing not just a now thing but im sure u understand that. No harm just wants you to understand also things like this is also the reason why games like Skyrim is still popular thru their mods...because of the many simple kits and communications between the modders and bethesda
That's just straight up insane to ask if "you want to pay for your mods?", because someone doesn't agree with your "list of demands", and it doesn't even relate to the whole situation.
See, you guys forgot one thing. This is a company, not your friend from the school, they don't have to do s#*! for this community, and that's 100% fine. The fact that they work on the proper support for you should be enough of a information already, and it's something that costs them real money to develop it, which they also don't benefit from in any way. Be grateful, and let them f*#@ing cook.
And if you really hate it here, then go ahead, do what you think is best for you, but don't act surprised if someone else fills the hole.
" I am an active mod-author with all patreon, ko-fi whatever page you can find, BG3 is so damn popular, i need to gain money as "volunteering" in the mod community, but i don't demand any payments but i will be "just happy" if you support me on ko-fi. I really love this game so i am volunteering to make the game even better. Did i mention that i have a ko-fi page ? I will be "so happy" if you buy me a coffee.
HOW DARE LARIAN DOESN'T COMMUNICATE WITH ME. i have also a patreon page. :)
Let's find some other mod-authors and force little authors to think like us to be accepted in this community."
it is always funny to watch vocal minority. They always mentioning open-sources, free mods but there is always a disclaimer on their mod pages as "ask permission" while they demand a "FREE" modding toolkit which doesn't even need a permission at all.
What they ask clashes what they do actually. If you are really volunteering, don't put those pages on your mod descriptions. It is just insult to real volunteers. It is like volunteering in an elderly care center and asking elders like "if you buy me a coffee, you will make me happy a lot." texts are always bigger than actual descriptions ?
If you don't expect anything and reallyvolunteering, Why on the earth at description pages, SUPPORT ME on KO-FI texts are always bigger than actual descriptions ?
The "vocal minority" you are speaking of, literally makes 80-90% of the biggest mods for this game. They may be a small number but their mods are what people want the most currently in their game.
"Support on Ko-fi". What is wrong in wanting to receive donations for your hard work? Some people, like me, actually enjoy giving a few donations I can because I understand that lots of time and effort were put in making a mod and updating a mod (especially when a patch breaks it). The mod authors aren't even forcing people to pay for their mods. You come here on Nexus and get these mods for free.
The vitriol and the entitlement of people who only download mods is insane and ludicrous. That's why many mods are created but never shared. Not even trying to see the other side. Imagine putting hundreds of hours into creating a mod, then sharing this mod to the community, then it breaks every patch/hotfix, then people are screaming at you because your mod is broken... ... ....then you are merely asking for a little bit more communication, but people yell at you for just asking for that much. These people call you, the modder, all kind of names...
hwelp, reading this makes me want to stop using the mods of the folks that signed it, that's a bummer. modding is a labor of love people do because they want to...but that letter is so incredibly out of touch.
no developer OWES you the ability to create mods for their game. no developer OWES you increased access to tools, advanced notice of patches or anything of the sort, just like you don't OWE a community updates to mods you make or bug fixes. open letters and demands are just...I don't even adequately have words I'm just disappointed on all of you that you're even raising the prospect of licensed softwares. for my mods in Cyberpunk, I PAID for my own Noesis license, I never in a million years would expect CDPR to provide anything to me. larian has already been far more open than many other companies and you don't seem to appreciate how good you have it.
This has never been about demanding mod tools, nor is it about the developers - it's about communication from the community team.
For 3.5 years, the modding community waited for some sort of indication of Larian's plans for mod support, even if that ended up being "no plans for mod support". We finally got an announcement recently, and while that's a great step forward, clarification on that is something we'd like to see (ex. if we'll be able to edit levels. This was not mentioned, whether purposeful or not, but is very important for the possibility of modded campaigns).
We're not asking for frequent updates - Just something hopefully shorter than 3 years / 5 months, even if it's as simple as, "Hey all. It's been 3 months since our last announcement, and we know you're excited for mod support. While we aren't quite ready to share more yet, we're working on things, and will let you know more as soon as possible. Stay tuned!"
This would be a great step up from the months of silence in previous years. That's a community team task, not one for the people working on the game.
no developer OWES you the ability to create mods for their game. no developer OWES you increased access to tools, advanced notice of patches or anything of the sort
When you're in a situation that makes you unhappy, you can either move on, or open up a dialogue to try and change it in a positive direction. Many of us love this game, Larian as a developer, and would like to continue making mods. Ultimately all we're requesting is less silence from the community team, after experiencing it for years.
Frankly, the amount of people running to call us "entitled", or say this is about mod tools, seem to have greatly missed the point of the letter. It's like you're saying, "You should take what you get, and be grateful you got anything at all!". It's the job of the community team to talk to the community, identify the issues, and do what they can to address them. This has been greatly lacking.
Support channels got absolutely flooded during hotfix 18, so much so that mod developers and support volunteers were continually harassed. We had people in there uploading bin folders, game exes, telling people to downgrade (and then people later saying downgrading broke their saves). An update announcement from the community team, telling people that the issues were being looked at, and to be patient, would have gone a long way.
Lack of dialogue is the crux of the letter, between Larian's plans for mod support, moderation issues on the official discord server (~3 people to moderate 150,000+), and not highlighting known issues.
Larian's community team appears to now be taking steps towards remedying these issues (mod support announcement, and a moderation announcement on Wednesday), so we're hoping they'll continue in that direction.
In the real world though, things don't work this way and if you all get too arrogant about it, there's nothing to stop Larian from saying "you know what, NO mod support at all, modding the game is against the TOS, if you mod it we will not provide any after-sale support. we provide you with our vision of the game and if it's not what you want, too bad your official option is to refund it". Your letter talks about the 1000s of hours you've all spent modding and how you deserve to speak to them like you're equals, what about the 1000s of hours they invested into creating their vision of the game in the first place, that you in many instances completely change by modding it? You wouldn't have anything to mod without what they created.
You don't have to be happy about them not providing you support to mod their games, but they also never asked you to do it and you telling them you're unhappy with them not providing support doesn't mean they suddenly need to care and respect those unhappy feelings of yours. This is where people are getting the idea about this being entitled from and it coming across as arrogant - you can express that unhappiness, but no one is under any obligation to respect it and give you any consideration because your unhappiness is of your own making. You are expecting concessions that no developer gives.
If you choose to create mods for any game, not just Larian's games, you should be doing it with the understanding that your time invested is optional and you have no rights of entitlement because unless you're custom drawing textures from scratch, you're working with IP you don't have the rights to and don't own. If they tell you to cease and desist, if they release patches that break your mods, if they refuse to communicate with you about upcoming patches, that is their right as the license holders.
In my day to day corpo life, I spend a lot of time in close proximity to our company's legal team. When I tell you that IP lawyers will sell you to satan for a corn chip and do not care about the concept of good will, please believe me. It could be so much worse than how Larian behaves with the community.
You seem to be purposefully misinterpreting what's being said.
This is not about demanding mod support. We've had no mod support for 3+ years, and if they decided to not provide mod support, then we'd at least be thankful that they stated their intentions.
You seem to want to bang this drum about IP and ownership. Write all the paragraphs you want about that, but it's addressing something we're not even talking about, to counter-argue some point we're not making.
The point of a community team is to communicate with said community. It's perfectly okay to address how that may be lacking, request that it improves, and inform them of what we'd hope to see.
We're already seeing changes starting to happen now.
My two cents: for many of us, modding is a hobby, and any hobby may involve an investment of time, attention, money, etc. If Larian has touched on mod support previously and went silent, it is reasonable for us to simply desire better communication in the future. As LL said, if they end up saying "no plans for mod support", or if they were to send "cease and desist" to modders, that's their option, and that's ok! We would ultimately be better informed about how to approach this hobby.
I think you seem to be misunderstanding what this game is and what you're entitled to expect from it and I think you all need to come back down to Earth. This is not a live service MMO, that is considered a "living" product that is going to evolve and change over time and be maintained indefinitely.
You paid your $60 or whatever your box price was, you got a playable product with a start and an end to it and some bug fix patches while it's still in it's hero product selling phases. There is an inevitable sunset on patches and support for this game, indeed they've already started work on their next game. You say it's about communications not tools, but what part of you buying an end to end product entitles you to ongoing communications and say over their support? You buying the game did not make you a Larian shareholder, it didn't make you an employee, it didn't guarantee you a seat on their board. They fulfilled their obligations to your purchase by providing you with a game you could play to completion.
The letter for example says "oh we gave them that discord". OK, and? I don't know who thinks it's perfectly reasonable to gift someone something and then proceed to make demands of how they choose to use it or not use it. If you wanted control, if you wanted say so, shouldn't have given them the discord. The cyberpunk modding discord for example stays independently run.
Don't you question it at all that you're getting the overwhelming "community" responses that you're getting from people in these threads, on Nexus of all places, so anyone that is here is already pro-modding and sympathetic to the efforts of modders? Or are you that far gone that you just think everyone else but yourselves is wrong and misguided?
I've noticed you've been suggesting coming back down to Earth and getting real and all that other dismissive BS but you've been actively misinterpreting what's being said and continually pushing a false narrative just to support this idea in your head that someone is asking for something unreasonable. When a game studio develops a game and they actively support the modding community for said game, asking (never demanding, as that has never been the case regardless of your personal narrative) for more communication regarding their patches, which often break mods, is not unreasonable.
If Larian had said no modding, or simply ignored the modding community, or didn't actually have a department directed and paid specifically to communicate with the modding community... this would be a different conversation. The people who are out of touch are everyone who clicks on a mod, intentionally misreads the description, sees that someone has the nerve to ask for a little more modding community support from the department paid to communicate with the modding community, races to the comments, and proceeds to lambast the supporters with false allegations, mischaracterizations, and general vitriol for daring to reach out and touch the feet of your infallible gods.
People are allowed to try to communicate with video game devs. They're not sacred. In fact, many development studios *want* player and community feedback. Imagine being a developer who wants to communicate with their player base, their player base tries to communicate with them, and some vocal nay-sayers spring up just to shout a whole bunch of "How dare you!"s and "You're so entitled!"s and "You're out of touch!"s. You're confused.
This has been and continues to be a case of "Don't like it? Don't use it." You do not have to support the mod or its intentions but neither do you have to be a toxic gatekeeper. It's been some time, so I hope you've since taken a breath and reevaluated your priorities. Hopefully, flaming a mod for a video game that is entirely opt-in and does not negatively impact your play of the game in any way is no longer one of those priorities.
my stance has not at all changed since my original comments and I still stand behind them 100%. I'm sorry that upsets you, but it's the reality of the real world we live in and some people have obviously gotten too deep into the scene and lost touch with reality and morphed this hobby into something more than it is and ever should be. I have full respect for the time and effort that people put into modding, I've done it myself I understand how difficult it is, but I'm also realistic about what I'm entitled to expect for my voluntary invested time in this hobby.
it's also hilarious to see you talk about "toxic gatekeeping" when the only "toxic gatekeeping" that has occurred here is part of what made people so angry in the first place: modders chose to hide their mods from public consumption, punishing an otherwise friendly to their cause community for percieved slights from Larian...Larian doesn't give a damn if mods exist or not, so the only people hiding those mods hurt was the people the modders wanted on their own side and then they were shocked they got the response they did. I myself personally don't care - I know how to rollback patches and play on an old build or I'd be happy playing through another 100% unmodded vanilla run...it doesn't matter to me at all, but it did completely erode the goodwill involved in this type of thing and is why in hindsight most of them re-publicised.
at the end of the day, Larian is a company. they are not your friends, any perceived relationship you have with them is completely one-sided and parasocial, they are a business and they are making products for profit. if you don't like what they're doing, vote with your wallet.
Here is the piece you are missing. Modding is something that Larian has heavily marketed as a piece that will make their game even better. I am not a modder, and I never played a Larian game before BG3. But when I saw that they were making a big deal about working towards official modding tools and that they would give modders the ability to enhance the game in any number of ways. It sold me on giving this game a try.
Modders offer so much value to company if things happen to work out that way. They can literally keep a game selling new copies for years and even out into a decade plus purely because of the modding community, not the base game at all. Not that there is a real formula for making it work, as some games make modders' lives miserable, but there is still a thriving community because of any number of reasons. Sometimes they work to support modders and nothing really comes from it. But it definitely makes it easier for building a modding community if they are respected and supported by the developers.
So maybe games do not owe anything to modders if they do not want a mod community, and in no way intend to market the game as moddable and customizeable. However, if they even once mention how they will release mod tools for a game, or if they constantly talk about their wonderful community of modders, then they absolutely owe it to the modders to have a line of dialogue with them at the very least. I bought this game specifically because they talked about how they would release mod tools and there would be ways to customize my game using the hard work of the modders. Reading that open letter made me very disappointed in Larian, to say the least. Especially because nobody in the gaming community covers things like this. They promised in their marketing that mod tools would be coming. They should give a timeline as to when.
Expecting modders to pay for their own licenses only leads to less mods. No, of course they should not be expected if it was never mentioned, but they have mentioned it multiple times.
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So, this (another social protest for the sake of social protest).. thing seeks to strenghten bonds by raising concerns. Hmm, I see the logic there. Endorse war to end all wars. Yay!
If every modder who signed this open letter left the official Larian discord, which they claim to not be supported properly, and created their own server purely for the purpose of modding and fostering a community run by modders, for modders and mod-users, not only would this be an explicit and impactful act of protest, it would also mean that these modders can enforce boundaries between themselves and mod-users instantaneously. The complaints that no official moderator is handling the swathes of players harassing people about hotfixes breaking the game, that no one is there to say 'We are investigating things after the recent patch and will update things ASAP', that there is no one to discipline harassment and belligerent behaviour, would all be solved.
I do understand the desire to have a more open line of communication between modders and Larian, however I feel like the disdain towards them is somewhat misguided as it is not necessarily Larian's responsibility to take care of the modding community. Looking towards Larian to take care of us, instead of taking care of ourselves, just seems like a waste of time and energy. The toxicity in the community is very real, and I don't blame modders at all for being frustrated with it on top of how much work they put into fixing the mods that get broken after each big patch, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether it's an official Larian employee saying 'Please wait, this update will break mods, we are working on it' or a community-picked moderator saying the same thing. We know mods get broken with each patch, it should be up to us to make sure our community members are treating modders with respect when these things happen.
In regards to the line of communication with Larian, I do get it, I just don't particularly see what the difference is between them saying, 'We're still working things out', and not saying it, really is. To me, it's very heavily implied from the fact that they've never offered official mod support before and the fact that they have stated they wish for mod support to extend to consoles too, that they are undertaking a big task in uncharted waters and have a lot of plates to spin and balls to juggle. I don't take their silence as ignorance, rather than an extension of previously mentioned statements that they *are* working on things and are continuing to do so. I don't think it's necessary to repeat this multiple times, as I do trust Larian to follow through eventually once their priorities allow for it. We have to remember that everything that gets worked on, including mod support, is something that Larian has to actively organise and pay workers for their time on. We know that Larian is not a developer who overextends their influence on their developers, they believe in fair work and fair pay, and they also have said that they wish for their vision of the game to be completed before they work on anything else so that they can have a well deserved break. I know modders want this support and this line of communication, but I do genuinely think that patience is key and that we should at least wait for them to meet their goals (finishing adding content to the vanilla base game to complete their vision) is the best way to go about it before trying to put this pressure on them to prioritise mods.
There's a lot of moving parts that go into developing a game, with a lot of divisions working in tandem with each big patch. I think asking for them to add on another division that would further complicate matters, adding extra strain both physically and financially on the workers and the development cycle, would actually harm the progression of Larian/Modder synchronisation in the long run. If each division had to compile all of their patch progress alongside the possible things that would be broken, as well as the scope for potential modding in the future within those divisions such as map making, model import/export, audio, coding, etc, and send them to an official mod-community parlance manager for distribution to modders, I think the frequency of updates would be much slower and the transition to full mod support would also take much much longer. I just don't think it's realistic to ask or expect this from Larian until the big patches have finished rolling out.
"ugh this UI for the bags is so small that's it! I'm going to mod this game"
*Takes a hesitant plung into the nexus to find out more without overly spoiling*
"Oh look at that cute Owl Bear logo I wonder what that's all about"
*Catches up on months worth of 'drama'*
"Oh!" ... "Ooooooh" ... "That's not... why would you... but..."
Still haven't fully caught up I would say but just want to offer up my voice in general support. To in part help show that we aren't all trolls here that want to start a hissy fit the moment that something that is being provided for free (yes even including the donations) gets interrupted in the short term.
In case I was unclear just now. I support the sentiments expressed by the letter and do not think of them as being a big ask. The Open Letter was well writen so that even someone who had no idea of what was going on the past few months (me)/years(also me) might quickly grasp the key points.
I also want to take a moment to talk about what struck me more than anything was that I truly could tell that the authors cared for the game and the studio itself.
I have more thoughts but as Gale said: "Even I am getting tired of hearing my own voice" so I will leave it at this and a thank you for all the members on here big, small, modders, or players. I am glad that we have fostered a community that allows for the freedom to be a complete idiot in these comments and have bad takes on here without getting silenced.
Coming from the Skyrim modding community, I'm more than aware of this kind of problem. I also have example of game (much smaller) where a dev helped (a little) the modding community.
I'm still amazed that game company haven't acknowledge that the modding community help a lot to keep a game alive (and sell) in the long run. A few example : Skyrim, Fallout, Mass effect, The Witch, Cyberpunk.
I'm working on a mod but I'm on stand-by after the last Community Update. The promised community tool might help with some problem that I'm working on, or do things in a cleaner way.
Just communication on patch ETA would be great.
Mod authors asking for open communication about the status of mod support and the effects it has on their mods when Larian has openly accepted and fostered modding in their community is not some criminal or arrogant act like people are claiming it is.
Mod authors are absolutely justified in hiding their works until they’re satisfied with an answer, they’re also justified if they choose to not ever release them again. If every patch broke my mod entirely and I had a swath of mod users complaining to me to fix it, and the best the community team (whose entire position is to communicate with the community) can offer is “oh no, our patch broke a bunch of stuff!” Then it’s entirely reasonable to hide those mods until something improves, on any applicable front.
If the argument is “if they don’t like it they can leave and just not make mods lol how entitled” then the argument is also “if you don’t like mod authors asking for communication to better mod the game, then don’t mod your game and don’t ever ask a mod author to update their mod for a patch again”
anyway support your mod authors
As long as the lines of communication between modders is present ...they have every reason to do whatever they want ..it's their mods. People are lucky very lucky ..cause they could've taken their mods off of nexus completely and turned them into paid mods... it's their mods . But if the mod broke other mods dontchu think both modders (the one who hide their mod and the one who mod is broken cause of it) should have some form of communication between themselves so both parties know.
Thou i totally get what u are coming at here. I get it it's their mods and they can do what they want with them, but in common courtesy and respect of both modders...(they don't have to ) Igmine yourself creating a mod for weeks u are proud of and using the assets of another modder ,even getting their permissions to do so. The mod goes up for about a month or so ..then all of a sudden your mod stops working out of no where. But the modder u had permissions by has sudden without letting u know (even thou u have open permissions) has taken their mod off without letting u know anything at all. Even thou u just talked with the modder a few days ago
How would u feel as a modder who has put in time, work on a very special mod to have it sudden ..be messed up and now u have to use more time because the assets ur mod depended on is gone?
You might say oh well make another mod...but u must understand the works & time each and every modder here has put into their mods. Like ur boss saying youll get paid for your work.. you do 40-50 hours of work just for that boss to pay you in a gift card. or better yet fire u without pay and not even tell u just a pink slip How would u feel? Would u feel cheated ,lied to , disappointed , upset , confused (thats how some of these modders feel when this happen) because their wasnt a established line of constant communications... maybe i could be wrong someone let us know so we can get this Open Faerun situation nipped in the bud and start working together...again like the community was when this all started
I'm not being a jerk in saying it & yes every modder here on nexus can do whatever they want with their mods freely by the way...but just like the letter states... forms of communication should be open out of common courtesy (they don't have to but its just being nice to do so) The more open communications that's going on the more the community can be at peace and everyone on the same page erasing confusion.. t's a peace of mind thing. Maybe im coming off as rude and im sorry if it sounds like that but i can't think of any other way of putting it. I support the modders , but my main support is this site first and it's community (it's mines as well as many others investment) and i would do anything to keep communications between Nexus Admins, Nexus Modders, Nexus Supporters & Nexus users open.
Thank you for your comment aluska and your support of the Nexus modding community..not just for this game but for the site itself
I think if major mod authors who have a lot of mods dependent on theirs are saying “hey, can we get a clear answer on what’s up or just a heads up that our mods are about to break for the umpteenth time so we can fix them ahead of time? Or a light at the end of the tunnel with official mod support or not?” And are asking for a tiny bit of communication, that’s not the worst thing and many game studios have very successfully opened that communication and drastically improved their community.
I agree with you that some kind of notice should maybe be said though if they will be hiding or removing their mods, because Nexus comments can be a vicious place for mod authors and if one mod’s removal breaks another, I agree that is unfair to those dependent mod authors who will also be getting swarmed with “fix it!” Comments and cannot fix it.
I think on a different note it’s also worth saying that I see a lot of comments saying “Larian already said mod support is coming so stop yapping” - This has been a long standing discussion before Larian said anything at all, and several of the previous major patches have brought it back about a few times now. It’s great they finally made a statement, but it shouldn’t take a wave of massive game-breaking issues introduced with a patch and mods for them to say something about it.
Like BinaryMisfit said above, you are seeing only vocal minority and it is like %1 or %2 of the modding community but people here writes an open letter with the claim of being the modding community which seems naive at first but in truth it is actually a claim which doesn't even care the majority. Modders always claims that they are volunteers but if it is not demands (yes, there are some modders that really demands payments) they usually expects some donations and there are only bunch of modders they don't expect anything from modding.
I'm part of this community too and i don't agree with the open letter at all. This is just false positive that these mod-authors thinks that they are the majority of the modding community. I don't think majority agrees with them at all because majority don't even care at all. As an active mod user, i don't care if Larian will make a statement for official modding support or not tbh.
I'm a mod user since 2009, I am actively using mods almost all games i am playing( Divinity series, Sims, Fallout series, Elder Scrolls series, Witcher, Don't Starve, even addons for MMOs like WoW, ESO etc. and a lot of other games which would make the post longer and longer) and you can see my comments rarely or non-exsistent at all and I act like you described, if the mod isn't updated, first i am looking for web if there is an updated version; if there is not, i am trying to update the mod for myself without publishing it because i have no right to do that and I never go to the mod page to demand an update or a feature for the mod. I am looking at a mod, reading its description to learn what it is for and what the features are; then if i decided to use it, i am starting to use it. When it is broken with an update, i re-visit the page to look if there are some updates or not, if there is not, i disable the mod and move-away and re-visit to page from time to time to see if there is an update or not while searching for also another mod that works like the mod i was using. If there is not, I try to fix it by myself for own usage, if i can't handle, i just move on. My brother also doing the same thing and we speak sometimes about mods that is not updated like "oh, what a loss, did you see X-mod author wrote that x mod won't be updated anymore, could you find anything like it ?" We don't swarm mod's page like "update it ! fix it !" I believe there are more like us, well, i actually know there are a lot. i am using mods, making mods for my own usage (sharing with some of my friends and people i meet from web) and looking at game/mod community pages, as only being a viewer and i meet with people in games and around web who uses mods too. False positives around vocal majority is so common nowadays.
It is like, if i can't demand anything from a mod-publisher, a mod-publisher can't demand anything from game-publisher. My mindset completely works like this and i know that i can't demand anything from a mod-publisher and i shouldn't because people produces something on how they like, how they see things and it is what makes modding a game interesting and hilarious that some people looks the game from a different point of view than mine and creates something which i can't even imagine so i am using that.
I am also completely against to demand something from a game-publisher tbh. like "hey, i didn't like character bodies of this game, so change it" or "i didn't like x system, it can be better with y" kind of stuff. I mean, if you like, buy and play it, if you didn't, just play another game. We are not in 1990s that there are only 100 games. There are thousands of games so why there are demands ?
Sorry but even though I like games with mods and even though i adore some modders products, game companies don't really have to support modding or in debt to modders to communicate or do anything at all.
It may lead to this question. Modding might carry a game to last longer, like how it was for Skyrim or Morrowind. When you think marketing part, both games were a bless for Bethesda but also a curse too. They are still playable with mods, their mod supports made those games' longevity like a human lifetime, even longer. So people always compared other Bethesda games with them and kept modding them. It can cause a loss on sales.
Look at this from a company perspective. We are living in an era of consumerism. If you make a game for life with total mod support, it starts to make money for modders instead of you. People pays for mods instead of your games. If you would be a game developer and you have more plans for upcoming games and stuff, you want your consumers to be bored from your last game so they can buy your new game so for this, you need to keep your modding support on the sweet spot that also helps people modding and keep your game alive and also be limited so it won't last for a lifetime.
So the question here is, Do Larian wants their games to last for a lifetime or they want to produce more detailed games for future ?
If you look at their last statements about how they don't want to produce more D&D games but produce a saga which belongs to completely themselves, they don't want BG3 to last for so long so they try to avoid mod support as much as possible imo.
This is just an echo chamber. I know there are a lot of person like me in the modding community. Not everyone has to communicate with each other. As I can't demand anything from a mod-publisher, game-publisher, They can't demand anything from me aswell. Please just stop with this "volunteering" fairytales. I know, most of you don't demand any donations or payment for your mods but in truth all of modders publishing their mods in expectation of some gains, if not for now, for future gains, like CVs for being able to recruited by game companies or other companies, or refferance points for future patreon pages etc. I know of only a bunch of people which won't pass my fingers amount that creates mods for no expectations at all. You can see them around with no patreon, kofi or any other page links attached to their mod description/user pages. They are really the honest volunteer ones. Kudos to them all !
And yeah, i litteraly and absolutely doing how you describe as a mod user and except the vocal minority, majority mostly move away when they see the mod isn't working anymore and look for another. so; Larian doesn't have to help anyone to gain anything from their products. They don't have to even communicate for modding support. Sorry, but this is the reality.
I don't care if some mod authors hides their mods as a reaction of bad communication at all tbh. It is just childish.
Edit: typo, grammar etc.
"it is like %1 or %2 of the modding community" but that 1-2% from looking at who has been signing that open letter are some of the biggest modders in the games. ImprovedUI, BG3 Mod Manager, BG3 Community Library/Compatibility Framework, 5e Spells? Just to name a few. Almost everyone on the list have mods that pratically everyone has in their game at the moment. So, tbh, I think their voices matter and that they should be allowed to express how their feel/opinion. Do their voices matter more than others? No? However, if their mods have become the backbone of the BG3 modding (I am talking when your mod is literally a requirement for other mods to work), I think that they should be listened to. I think that it would be a good idea to work with the modders to release the best official mod support tools, because modders also have a good knowledge of value for developers.
"I am also completely against to demand something from a game-publisher tbh."
Asking for better communication is not unheard of when a game allows mods. That kind of request happened in various communities and the ones that thrive the most are the ones when communication is very present. Patch 6 broke so much that just a little bit of a heads up would have been great especially. It must have been hell of modders to go through. On top of that, there's something called player feedback. Modders are great source for feedback. After all, many mods are created for better quality of life, so if there's great communication, developers are also getting great feedback off of it. Maybe, it's because of my background as a Simmer (someone who plays that non-game called The Sims), but if it wasn't for demands, a lot of major changes would have not be possible (for example, more skintones shades for a game that is supposed to represent real life).
I disagree, and I will have to break it into parts.
"If you make a game for life with total mod support, it starts to make money for modders instead of you."
That is not necessarily true but it's not necessarily wrong either.
I am saying this because BG3 brought in people from various gaming backgrounds thus accustomed to different modding cultures. I am one of those people. I have played various games, but one game that will always be dear to my heart is The Sims. TS4 is the current installment and modders make bank (some of the top modders can easily be making 200k+/year and maybe more). You would think that EA would see this and try to stop it, but, instead, EA saw an opportunity. They have been working with modders. Some of these top modders have seen their assets being added to the official game and started to let modders build things for them. It is not a "starts to make money for modders instead of you", it's recognizing that modders can be an asset that can be used to make the game better. It is also worth noting that EA was against modding for the longest of time or tried to cash in on mods (TS2/TS3 era) and failed. All I am saying is that giving total mod support is not a bad thing if the company can capitalize on the modders and establish some form of relationship. Everyone wins. (Also, I want to point out that there are a lot of flaws and issues...it's not all great...but I just wanted to point out that it's not a bad thing to have total mod support).
" People pays for mods instead of your games."
Yes, but, most of the time, you only buy the game once anyway so it's not a lost in my opinion. It doesn't matter if the people pay for the mods. Because it would have been the same if the game had 0 mod support. Unless, you put lootboxes, battleplasses, microtransaction, etc. The company only cashes in once anyways, so it's not much of an issue. The company made its money.
"If you would be a game developer and you have more plans for upcoming games and stuff, you want your consumers to be bored from your last game so they can buy your new game"
This, I highly disagree.
As a developer, you would like your consumers to buy your next game. But, you cannot guarantee that your customer will purchase your next game. The fact that Larian will not make the next BG game means that anyone who only bought BG3 because they are a fan of the franchise will potentially not buy their next project (they might think about it, but it will take a lot more to make them buy a game or maybe they will want a new game by Larian). On top of that, there is a reason why many developers are remastering their old games or making their old games more stable. They want to keep those consumers. They see money to be made. Skyrim has how many editions now...over 5 at least?
"you need to keep your modding support on the sweet spot that also helps people modding and keep your game alive and also be limited so it won't last for a lifetime"
That's a really odd take imo. But, I am looking at it from my data analyst perspective. Here is how I break down my analysis: Game is at least 5 years old. Modders are keeping it alive with their mods. Potential to look at what modders have been doing over the years. Potential to integrate these ideas into the game. Release a new remastered version of the game (and many times the remastered version has these ideas added, general the QoL ideas, into the game. Aside from that, there aren't any good or valid reasons why a company should limit their modding support tools. (Or, I just cannot see it) There are examples of games that have 0 modding support that are going to last a lifetime (look at all those Nintendo titles surviving because modders gave them life and, now, Nintendo is trying to cash in by releasing remastered version for the Switch).
"So the question here is, Do Larian wants their games to last for a lifetime or they want to produce more detailed games for future ?
If you look at their last statements about how they don't want to produce more D&D games but produce a saga which belongs to completely themselves, they don't want BG3 to last for so long so they try to avoid mod support as much as possible imo."
That's...not how Larian has worked in the past. Divinity 2 had decent enough mod support, but there are issues due to various reason. Still, people (including me) are still playing Divinity 2 with the mods that still work and are maintained. Plus, Larian has a history of releasing one final update (the Definitive Edition) that is the complete version of the game. I don't think that Larian would have released a definitive edition if they didn't want people to keep on playing Divinity even if it is old. I believe that Larian is going to follow this path and do the same for BG3. However, we can argue that Divinity 2 is different because it's their original franchise. Still, I want to believe that Larian will release a Definitive Edition of BG3.
"I don't care if some mod authors hides their mods as a reaction of bad communication at all tbh. It is just childish."
It's not childish at all, because it got the attention of Larian and they responded. Larian actually cared and decided took into account various things in the open letter. For example, this section in the open letter about the modding channels in the official discord. Recently, changes were made and it is so much easier to get support from there. It was a much needed change especially for someone like me who mods. I want to be able to have access to information so that I can improve my modding abilities. They also hired more moderators for the discord server which is very welcomed.
Also, there's this little thing you wrote:
We don't swarm mod's page like "update it ! fix it !"
I don't disagree to this but I want to point out something. (I think it's about nuance?) One of the places where many modders can be contacted, the Larian official discord for instance. Every time mod breaks, within minutes, you have so many people asking if the Script Extender (for example) or ImprovedUI is fixed. Many people being angry. No patience, no critical thinking. Just many people just asking for the fix yet it hasn't been a couple of minutes. Are they a majority? No. But, these messages are there. And, it doesn't take many to wear someone down. It's just like how in a sea of thousands of positive messages, that one negative message will still leave an impact.
Bring in Toolkits (Which makes it easier not just for current modders but bring in even new modders who can use those tools to make even more free mods)
If it wasn't for things like this
All Bethesda games wouldn't have any toolkits.
Cyberpunk wouldn't have any open sourced for free modders and easier ways to make more modders join the fray
You would have to pay for mods (no free mods)
Nexus Admins would literally ban anyone who tried to make free mods as well as many developers would have loads of lawsuits being able to sue anyone who made a mod for their games.
So look at this thru the eyes of a modder who just wants communication to bring in more tools to make it even easier to create mods. and even someone like urself will be able to use the tools yourself to also become a mod creator.... it's a future thing not just a now thing but im sure u understand that. No harm just wants you to understand also things like this is also the reason why games like Skyrim is still popular thru their mods...because of the many simple kits and communications between the modders and bethesda
See, you guys forgot one thing. This is a company, not your friend from the school, they don't have to do s#*! for this community, and that's 100% fine. The fact that they work on the proper support for you should be enough of a information already, and it's something that costs them real money to develop it, which they also don't benefit from in any way. Be grateful, and let them f*#@ing cook.
And if you really hate it here, then go ahead, do what you think is best for you, but don't act surprised if someone else fills the hole.
HOW DARE LARIAN DOESN'T COMMUNICATE WITH ME. i have also a patreon page. :)
Let's find some other mod-authors and force little authors to think like us to be accepted in this community."
it is always funny to watch vocal minority. They always mentioning open-sources, free mods but there is always a disclaimer on their mod pages as "ask permission" while they demand a "FREE" modding toolkit which doesn't even need a permission at all.
What they ask clashes what they do actually. If you are really volunteering, don't put those pages on your mod descriptions. It is just insult to real volunteers. It is like volunteering in an elderly care center and asking elders like "if you buy me a coffee, you will make me happy a lot." texts are always bigger than actual descriptions ?
If you don't expect anything and reallyvolunteering, Why on the earth at description pages, SUPPORT ME on KO-FI texts are always bigger than actual descriptions ?
Insincerity...
"Support on Ko-fi". What is wrong in wanting to receive donations for your hard work? Some people, like me, actually enjoy giving a few donations I can because I understand that lots of time and effort were put in making a mod and updating a mod (especially when a patch breaks it). The mod authors aren't even forcing people to pay for their mods. You come here on Nexus and get these mods for free.
The vitriol and the entitlement of people who only download mods is insane and ludicrous. That's why many mods are created but never shared. Not even trying to see the other side. Imagine putting hundreds of hours into creating a mod, then sharing this mod to the community, then it breaks every patch/hotfix, then people are screaming at you because your mod is broken... ... ....then you are merely asking for a little bit more communication, but people yell at you for just asking for that much. These people call you, the modder, all kind of names...
no developer OWES you the ability to create mods for their game. no developer OWES you increased access to tools, advanced notice of patches or anything of the sort, just like you don't OWE a community updates to mods you make or bug fixes. open letters and demands are just...I don't even adequately have words I'm just disappointed on all of you that you're even raising the prospect of licensed softwares. for my mods in Cyberpunk, I PAID for my own Noesis license, I never in a million years would expect CDPR to provide anything to me. larian has already been far more open than many other companies and you don't seem to appreciate how good you have it.
For 3.5 years, the modding community waited for some sort of indication of Larian's plans for mod support, even if that ended up being "no plans for mod support". We finally got an announcement recently, and while that's a great step forward, clarification on that is something we'd like to see (ex. if we'll be able to edit levels. This was not mentioned, whether purposeful or not, but is very important for the possibility of modded campaigns).
We're not asking for frequent updates - Just something hopefully shorter than 3 years / 5 months, even if it's as simple as, "Hey all. It's been 3 months since our last announcement, and we know you're excited for mod support. While we aren't quite ready to share more yet, we're working on things, and will let you know more as soon as possible. Stay tuned!"
This would be a great step up from the months of silence in previous years. That's a community team task, not one for the people working on the game.
When you're in a situation that makes you unhappy, you can either move on, or open up a dialogue to try and change it in a positive direction. Many of us love this game, Larian as a developer, and would like to continue making mods. Ultimately all we're requesting is less silence from the community team, after experiencing it for years.
Frankly, the amount of people running to call us "entitled", or say this is about mod tools, seem to have greatly missed the point of the letter. It's like you're saying, "You should take what you get, and be grateful you got anything at all!". It's the job of the community team to talk to the community, identify the issues, and do what they can to address them. This has been greatly lacking.
Support channels got absolutely flooded during hotfix 18, so much so that mod developers and support volunteers were continually harassed. We had people in there uploading bin folders, game exes, telling people to downgrade (and then people later saying downgrading broke their saves).
An update announcement from the community team, telling people that the issues were being looked at, and to be patient, would have gone a long way.
Lack of dialogue is the crux of the letter, between Larian's plans for mod support, moderation issues on the official discord server (~3 people to moderate 150,000+), and not highlighting known issues.
Larian's community team appears to now be taking steps towards remedying these issues (mod support announcement, and a moderation announcement on Wednesday), so we're hoping they'll continue in that direction.
You don't have to be happy about them not providing you support to mod their games, but they also never asked you to do it and you telling them you're unhappy with them not providing support doesn't mean they suddenly need to care and respect those unhappy feelings of yours. This is where people are getting the idea about this being entitled from and it coming across as arrogant - you can express that unhappiness, but no one is under any obligation to respect it and give you any consideration because your unhappiness is of your own making. You are expecting concessions that no developer gives.
If you choose to create mods for any game, not just Larian's games, you should be doing it with the understanding that your time invested is optional and you have no rights of entitlement because unless you're custom drawing textures from scratch, you're working with IP you don't have the rights to and don't own. If they tell you to cease and desist, if they release patches that break your mods, if they refuse to communicate with you about upcoming patches, that is their right as the license holders.
In my day to day corpo life, I spend a lot of time in close proximity to our company's legal team. When I tell you that IP lawyers will sell you to satan for a corn chip and do not care about the concept of good will, please believe me. It could be so much worse than how Larian behaves with the community.
This is not about demanding mod support. We've had no mod support for 3+ years, and if they decided to not provide mod support, then we'd at least be thankful that they stated their intentions.
You seem to want to bang this drum about IP and ownership. Write all the paragraphs you want about that, but it's addressing something we're not even talking about, to counter-argue some point we're not making.
The point of a community team is to communicate with said community. It's perfectly okay to address how that may be lacking, request that it improves, and inform them of what we'd hope to see.
We're already seeing changes starting to happen now.
As LL said, if they end up saying "no plans for mod support", or if they were to send "cease and desist" to modders, that's their option, and that's ok! We would ultimately be better informed about how to approach this hobby.
You paid your $60 or whatever your box price was, you got a playable product with a start and an end to it and some bug fix patches while it's still in it's hero product selling phases. There is an inevitable sunset on patches and support for this game, indeed they've already started work on their next game. You say it's about communications not tools, but what part of you buying an end to end product entitles you to ongoing communications and say over their support? You buying the game did not make you a Larian shareholder, it didn't make you an employee, it didn't guarantee you a seat on their board. They fulfilled their obligations to your purchase by providing you with a game you could play to completion.
The letter for example says "oh we gave them that discord". OK, and? I don't know who thinks it's perfectly reasonable to gift someone something and then proceed to make demands of how they choose to use it or not use it. If you wanted control, if you wanted say so, shouldn't have given them the discord. The cyberpunk modding discord for example stays independently run.
Don't you question it at all that you're getting the overwhelming "community" responses that you're getting from people in these threads, on Nexus of all places, so anyone that is here is already pro-modding and sympathetic to the efforts of modders? Or are you that far gone that you just think everyone else but yourselves is wrong and misguided?
If Larian had said no modding, or simply ignored the modding community, or didn't actually have a department directed and paid specifically to communicate with the modding community... this would be a different conversation. The people who are out of touch are everyone who clicks on a mod, intentionally misreads the description, sees that someone has the nerve to ask for a little more modding community support from the department paid to communicate with the modding community, races to the comments, and proceeds to lambast the supporters with false allegations, mischaracterizations, and general vitriol for daring to reach out and touch the feet of your infallible gods.
People are allowed to try to communicate with video game devs. They're not sacred. In fact, many development studios *want* player and community feedback. Imagine being a developer who wants to communicate with their player base, their player base tries to communicate with them, and some vocal nay-sayers spring up just to shout a whole bunch of "How dare you!"s and "You're so entitled!"s and "You're out of touch!"s. You're confused.
This has been and continues to be a case of "Don't like it? Don't use it." You do not have to support the mod or its intentions but neither do you have to be a toxic gatekeeper. It's been some time, so I hope you've since taken a breath and reevaluated your priorities. Hopefully, flaming a mod for a video game that is entirely opt-in and does not negatively impact your play of the game in any way is no longer one of those priorities.
it's also hilarious to see you talk about "toxic gatekeeping" when the only "toxic gatekeeping" that has occurred here is part of what made people so angry in the first place: modders chose to hide their mods from public consumption, punishing an otherwise friendly to their cause community for percieved slights from Larian...Larian doesn't give a damn if mods exist or not, so the only people hiding those mods hurt was the people the modders wanted on their own side and then they were shocked they got the response they did. I myself personally don't care - I know how to rollback patches and play on an old build or I'd be happy playing through another 100% unmodded vanilla run...it doesn't matter to me at all, but it did completely erode the goodwill involved in this type of thing and is why in hindsight most of them re-publicised.
at the end of the day, Larian is a company. they are not your friends, any perceived relationship you have with them is completely one-sided and parasocial, they are a business and they are making products for profit. if you don't like what they're doing, vote with your wallet.
Modders offer so much value to company if things happen to work out that way. They can literally keep a game selling new copies for years and even out into a decade plus purely because of the modding community, not the base game at all. Not that there is a real formula for making it work, as some games make modders' lives miserable, but there is still a thriving community because of any number of reasons. Sometimes they work to support modders and nothing really comes from it. But it definitely makes it easier for building a modding community if they are respected and supported by the developers.
So maybe games do not owe anything to modders if they do not want a mod community, and in no way intend to market the game as moddable and customizeable. However, if they even once mention how they will release mod tools for a game, or if they constantly talk about their wonderful community of modders, then they absolutely owe it to the modders to have a line of dialogue with them at the very least. I bought this game specifically because they talked about how they would release mod tools and there would be ways to customize my game using the hard work of the modders. Reading that open letter made me very disappointed in Larian, to say the least. Especially because nobody in the gaming community covers things like this. They promised in their marketing that mod tools would be coming. They should give a timeline as to when.
Expecting modders to pay for their own licenses only leads to less mods. No, of course they should not be expected if it was never mentioned, but they have mentioned it multiple times.