So much work for a pair of mods that completely fail to understand what AC is intended to represent.
And why do the shields work like they're made of gelatin? If a shield blocks or deflects a physical blow, then the shield bearer shouldn't take any damage from it. This implementation where you reduce a die worth of dmg is acting like all the shield does is slow down the attack, not stop it. Which... what?
The reason a shield gives your character more AC is because bearing the shield makes it less likely that a weapon strikes your body. Everything you're trying to do here is already accounted for.
So many words for a post that completely fails to understand what the mod is intended to do.
If there's any room for ambiguity as to whether a shield should always, never, or sometimes serve as a way to negate an incoming attack entirely, then speaking in absolutes about it is pointless and, in the case of your post specifically, condescending. Implicit in your post is the idea that realism, or parity with 5e, should take priority over improved mechanics - I won't address that idea because it's silly (and because those two things aren't incompatible). The point is, there's room for interpretation, and this mod offers an interpretation that the author (and I'm sure some other users) prefers for the purpose of adding complexity and diversity to builds and encounters.
I'm not going to give the "if you don't like the mod don't use it and don't needlessly s#*! on hard work" spiel, because you already failed that particular self-awareness check. While that advice still holds true, you've already posted this pretty blatant attempt to vocally reinforce your own interpretation - probably because any dissenting opinions threaten whatever fragile foundations prop it up in your own head. And tbh, that speculation constitutes the "giving you the benefit of the doubt" account, because otherwise you're petty AND coping, instead of just coping.
Quick sanity check. Do you have the same reaction regarding monk's deflect missile ability? Do you believe it should have passively increased monks AC against ranged attacks and the fact that it's made different means that authors of 5e rules do not understand what AC represents?
The thing is, I understand what AC is intended to represent very well. I just find this representation to be overly simplistic for a video game and generally lacking. That's why I've released a series of overhauls reworking it. I believe they make the game more realistic and interesting to play, adding whole new strategic dimension with different opportunity costs where there used to be just one number. I'd recommend you give them a try before criticizing, but if it's not your cup of tea - that's fine. Not everything has to be.
> If a shield blocks or deflects a physical blow, then the shield bearer shouldn't take any damage from it.
Not necessarily. When you fail to deflect the blow and have to resort to blocking there are several possibilities. You may fully block the attack. You may partially block the attack, decreasing it's force but still allowing it to hit some part of your body not protected by a shield. A strong blow directly to the shield can still damage your arm. These possibilities are represented in the blocking roll. Main logic that the more powerful the attack the harder it is to negate it completely is sound. There is also a possibility that your shield is completely broken. But for now I decided not to go in this direction in as much details in order not to overcomplicate things. But if enough people want it I may try to implement it too.
As someone who loves pathfinder 2e I actually prefer what the mod does.
There shields give you a damage reduction based on shield type instead of a flat AC bonus.
And given the way many things scale in both table top D&D and BG3 you will often get hit even with a shield, so damage reduction actually works better to make a person equipped like a tank feel like one.
You have literally no idea what this mod is for. Lowering your AC makes enemies more likely to attack you. You then get to reduce the damage. It's for tanking. The way shields work in BG3 is completely broken. You just get bonus AC for free no matter what you're doing and is actually counter intuitive to tanking since high AC means the less attacks will generally be directed at you.
Seriously, if you just took zero damage and also got a mini taunt that would be completely broken.
failure to understand the difference between snatching a projectile out of mid air and blocking a projectile with an item DESIGNED to stop it.... that is some HUGE cognitive dissonence right there.
And what's the justification, why intercepting the projectile from mid air with your hand should work one way, while intercepting the same projectile with a shield should work the other way? Even the movement you make with your hand for both actions is pretty similar. And when a monk failed to deflect the missile fully, that's basically a situation where it hits their hand instead of some more crucial area. As if, you know, they were blocking with their hand.
How the fact that shield is designed to block things is relevant here? Isn't your hand also, in a sense, designed for snatching things? Suppose instead of a shield, a character has a long sword in their off hand which wasn't exactly designed for deflecting arrows. Should Dual Wielder Feat work similar to monk's ability, instead of giving +1 to AC then?
@JenevelleHallowleaf Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth - all these overhauls - shield, weapon, armor - are actually putting realism farther away. Anybody who goes behind a solid object for protection knows this. For thin, wooden shields, this system might be believable, but for a shield that is covered with metal, it will stop anything it gets in the way of, even arrows. There are medieval historians who have shown how this works, its astonishing how strong shields really are.
That's not how shields work. Not IRL anyway and I prefer realism wherever possible.
When you defend against a blow with your shield it doesn't magically deflect the force of the attack. If the attack is strong enough, especially with blunt weapons, anything from slightly hurting your arm to literally shattering it is possible, especially when things like giant ogres are a thing.
I'm just going to gloss over your extremely rude and condescending tone, as well as your blatant hypocrisy and just tackle the actual crux of the argument.
AC as DND does it is a terrible mechanic and is a 40 year old relic from Chainmail. It makes no distinction between dodging a hit or tanking it and doesn't account for the potential of resisting the damage at all, damage resistance is much rarer. Yes, the entire point of AC is to abstract all of that into a binary "does/doesn't get hit" but many people find that overly reductive and uninteresting. There is literally no downside for wearing the heaviest armor you have proficiency for, and there's no downside for taking the heaviest shield you can manage.
The entire point of systems that separate AC and damage mitigation, such as Fantasycraft (which is functionally a fork of 3e going in a different direction than Pathfinder) or Lancer (which is heavily inspired by 4e) is to add that level of complexity and buildcrafting into the equation. Your tiny gnome assassin might not be strong enough to wear the heaviest armor to just facetank every attack, but they have high enough dexterity that hitting them in the first place is a bigger challenge. Likewise, your strength/constitution half-orc beatstick paladin might be slower and worse at dodging, but can reduce incoming damage with both heavy armor and a giant slab of metal on their arm, and the lower AC encourages enemies to target you first before your squishier allies. Evasion characters are stronger against single big hits since they have a better chance to dodge it entirely, but get overwhelmed by small hits because eventually one or two will beat your AC. Meanwhile, tank characters are stronger against those small hits, but can get overwhelmed by big hits that they can't effectively reduce and have basically no chance to juke.
The question of realism is completely irrelevant as DND is not trying to be a realistic system, nor should it. DND doesn't take into account fighting styles and specific weapons that were designed to counteract shields, or cultures that never even developed widespread shield usage. Nor does it actually take into account how shields were used, a buckler is treated identically as a greatshield even though their techniques were so radically different as to barely be comparable to begin with.
This is a poor statement... imagine thinking oh look i took no damage cause i got shieled... if anything a shield makes you easier to hit cause its a bigger flat space that doesn't move or bend like person. You just don't get as bad cause its not you directly, same as armor. Oh I got stabbed.. still hurt, but I'm not dying now though cause my lung hasn't been punctured this time.
hey, I love the idea of a shield block reaction to reduce some of the damage, but could you make an optional file without the AC reduction as well? I'd greatly appreciate that, thank you!
They do. I even have it in one of the screenshots.
Of course, they won't be able to use it if they already spent their reaction on something else, like opportunity attack or Protection fighting style. Now when I think about it, maybe I should change protection fighting style to be a shield block as well, instead of imposing disadvantage on a roll.
You've already shown to have a good grasp on how to overhaul mechanics in a rational way, so with regards to the Protection Fighting style, I think you might be on to something there!
They seem to, yes, which I feel makes them a bit tougher, but also adds more depth to the combat. For example you could bait their reaction with something else or stop them from reacting altogether, taking down a part of their defense that way.
Wish Larian would implement this mechanic into the core game. I haven't tested it enough for performance, but having to decide whether you want to use your reaction to turtle up to mitigate some incoming damage or to catch a running enemy makes combat SO much more interactive and nuanced. Only disappointing part for me is the lack of a blocking animation+sound.
Maybe the numbers need some tweaking, but I think this mod is an absolute MUST!
for a mod that tries to make shields more interresting I must say that this is a total fail. Having all the heavier shields making you use your reaction to give a "small" benefit and otherwise just be completely useless and actually nerf whoever is using it just seems really weird to me. Suggested changes 1. The bigger/heavier a shield is the higher flat bonus to armor class they give and maybe even a small bonus to damage reduction, like 1 per catagory above first. And instead of ac penalties for heavier catagories, maybe a movement speed penalty if your strenght/constitution is below a certain threshold. Also if possible make heavier shields require medium/heavy armor profficiency. 2. Shields should work against anything that involves an attack roll, not exclude specific damage types.
all shields could get the following 2 reaction options 1. Reaction Blocking - the bigger/heavier a shield is the more damage you can block with your reaction, something like a dice based on shield size like d6 per catagory above first + profficiency + strength modifier. (this will let you use your reaction in a meaningful way to actually block a big hit each turn instead of just a small readuction in damage with something that makes you more vunerable the rest of the time) 2. Reaction Deflect - the lighter the shield the easier it should be to deflect an attack, formular something like use reaction to add profficiency + dexterity modifier to ac, reduced by 1 or 2 for each catagory of shield size above first.
to make it even more interresting you could incorporate stuff like the Shield Master feat actively allowing you to Shield Bash as a bonus action doing something like 1d4 per size catagory + strength modifier. maybe with a penalty to the attack roll of -1 per size catagory. or like spend your bonus action to ready a block/deflect giving you an extra reaction that can only be used with the shield.
hi all, what do u think about a mod that allow u to have shield equipped but only in the back and a two hand weap equipped two hand? like dark souls for let u understand qhat i mean.
so u can use wear two hand, like staff and also have abilities and passive of shields w/o have it in the second arm
Not dumb at all in my opinion. I think this would give off a bit of an arcadey vibe versus realismy vibe, but I think it can also fit in really well with the concept of capes, and accessories impacting gameplay. Wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I bet if someone made the mod plenty of people would use it.
Hey mate, not a big deal either way but was just wondering if you were still working on this mod and the protection fighting style change as you mentioned in a previous comment?
58 comments
I like to implement this in my game but have lots of modded items in the game.
And why do the shields work like they're made of gelatin? If a shield blocks or deflects a physical blow, then the shield bearer shouldn't take any damage from it. This implementation where you reduce a die worth of dmg is acting like all the shield does is slow down the attack, not stop it. Which... what?
The reason a shield gives your character more AC is because bearing the shield makes it less likely that a weapon strikes your body. Everything you're trying to do here is already accounted for.
If there's any room for ambiguity as to whether a shield should always, never, or sometimes serve as a way to negate an incoming attack entirely, then speaking in absolutes about it is pointless and, in the case of your post specifically, condescending. Implicit in your post is the idea that realism, or parity with 5e, should take priority over improved mechanics - I won't address that idea because it's silly (and because those two things aren't incompatible). The point is, there's room for interpretation, and this mod offers an interpretation that the author (and I'm sure some other users) prefers for the purpose of adding complexity and diversity to builds and encounters.
I'm not going to give the "if you don't like the mod don't use it and don't needlessly s#*! on hard work" spiel, because you already failed that particular self-awareness check. While that advice still holds true, you've already posted this pretty blatant attempt to vocally reinforce your own interpretation - probably because any dissenting opinions threaten whatever fragile foundations prop it up in your own head. And tbh, that speculation constitutes the "giving you the benefit of the doubt" account, because otherwise you're petty AND coping, instead of just coping.
what does that even achieve?
The thing is, I understand what AC is intended to represent very well. I just find this representation to be overly simplistic for a video game and generally lacking. That's why I've released a series of overhauls reworking it. I believe they make the game more realistic and interesting to play, adding whole new strategic dimension with different opportunity costs where there used to be just one number. I'd recommend you give them a try before criticizing, but if it's not your cup of tea - that's fine. Not everything has to be.
> If a shield blocks or deflects a physical blow, then the shield bearer shouldn't take any damage from it.
Not necessarily. When you fail to deflect the blow and have to resort to blocking there are several possibilities. You may fully block the attack. You may partially block the attack, decreasing it's force but still allowing it to hit some part of your body not protected by a shield. A strong blow directly to the shield can still damage your arm. These possibilities are represented in the blocking roll. Main logic that the more powerful the attack the harder it is to negate it completely is sound. There is also a possibility that your shield is completely broken. But for now I decided not to go in this direction in as much details in order not to overcomplicate things. But if enough people want it I may try to implement it too.
There shields give you a damage reduction based on shield type instead of a flat AC bonus.
And given the way many things scale in both table top D&D and BG3 you will often get hit even with a shield, so damage reduction actually works better to make a person equipped like a tank feel like one.
Seriously, if you just took zero damage and also got a mini taunt that would be completely broken.
How the fact that shield is designed to block things is relevant here? Isn't your hand also, in a sense, designed for snatching things? Suppose instead of a shield, a character has a long sword in their off hand which wasn't exactly designed for deflecting arrows. Should Dual Wielder Feat work similar to monk's ability, instead of giving +1 to AC then?
Anybody who goes behind a solid object for protection knows this. For thin, wooden shields, this system might be believable, but for a shield that is covered with metal, it will stop anything it gets in the way of, even arrows. There are medieval historians who have shown how this works, its astonishing how strong shields really are.
Not IRL anyway and I prefer realism wherever possible.
When you defend against a blow with your shield it doesn't magically deflect the force of the attack. If the attack is strong enough, especially with blunt weapons, anything from slightly hurting your arm to literally shattering it is possible, especially when things like giant ogres are a thing.
AC as DND does it is a terrible mechanic and is a 40 year old relic from Chainmail. It makes no distinction between dodging a hit or tanking it and doesn't account for the potential of resisting the damage at all, damage resistance is much rarer. Yes, the entire point of AC is to abstract all of that into a binary "does/doesn't get hit" but many people find that overly reductive and uninteresting. There is literally no downside for wearing the heaviest armor you have proficiency for, and there's no downside for taking the heaviest shield you can manage.
The entire point of systems that separate AC and damage mitigation, such as Fantasycraft (which is functionally a fork of 3e going in a different direction than Pathfinder) or Lancer (which is heavily inspired by 4e) is to add that level of complexity and buildcrafting into the equation. Your tiny gnome assassin might not be strong enough to wear the heaviest armor to just facetank every attack, but they have high enough dexterity that hitting them in the first place is a bigger challenge. Likewise, your strength/constitution half-orc beatstick paladin might be slower and worse at dodging, but can reduce incoming damage with both heavy armor and a giant slab of metal on their arm, and the lower AC encourages enemies to target you first before your squishier allies. Evasion characters are stronger against single big hits since they have a better chance to dodge it entirely, but get overwhelmed by small hits because eventually one or two will beat your AC. Meanwhile, tank characters are stronger against those small hits, but can get overwhelmed by big hits that they can't effectively reduce and have basically no chance to juke.
The question of realism is completely irrelevant as DND is not trying to be a realistic system, nor should it. DND doesn't take into account fighting styles and specific weapons that were designed to counteract shields, or cultures that never even developed widespread shield usage. Nor does it actually take into account how shields were used, a buckler is treated identically as a greatshield even though their techniques were so radically different as to barely be comparable to begin with.
Of course, they won't be able to use it if they already spent their reaction on something else, like opportunity attack or Protection fighting style.
Now when I think about it, maybe I should change protection fighting style to be a shield block as well, instead of imposing disadvantage on a roll.
You've already shown to have a good grasp on how to overhaul mechanics in a rational way, so with regards to the Protection Fighting style, I think you might be on to something there!
Wish Larian would implement this mechanic into the core game.
I haven't tested it enough for performance, but having to decide whether you want to use your reaction to turtle up to mitigate some incoming damage or to catch a running enemy makes combat SO much more interactive and nuanced.
Only disappointing part for me is the lack of a blocking animation+sound.
Maybe the numbers need some tweaking, but I think this mod is an absolute MUST!
Suggested changes
1. The bigger/heavier a shield is the higher flat bonus to armor class they give and maybe even a small bonus to damage reduction, like 1 per catagory above first. And instead of ac penalties for heavier catagories, maybe a movement speed penalty if your strenght/constitution is below a certain threshold. Also if possible make heavier shields require medium/heavy armor profficiency.
2. Shields should work against anything that involves an attack roll, not exclude specific damage types.
all shields could get the following 2 reaction options
1. Reaction Blocking - the bigger/heavier a shield is the more damage you can block with your reaction, something like a dice based on shield size like d6 per catagory above first + profficiency + strength modifier. (this will let you use your reaction in a meaningful way to actually block a big hit each turn instead of just a small readuction in damage with something that makes you more vunerable the rest of the time)
2. Reaction Deflect - the lighter the shield the easier it should be to deflect an attack, formular something like use reaction to add profficiency + dexterity modifier to ac, reduced by 1 or 2 for each catagory of shield size above first.
to make it even more interresting you could incorporate stuff like the Shield Master feat actively allowing you to Shield Bash as a bonus action doing something like 1d4 per size catagory + strength modifier. maybe with a penalty to the attack roll of -1 per size catagory.
or like spend your bonus action to ready a block/deflect giving you an extra reaction that can only be used with the shield.
so u can use wear two hand, like staff and also have abilities and passive of shields w/o have it in the second arm