Warlock will still have fewer spell slots than a standard spellcaster and a smaller selection of spells, but he will gain the benefit of more powerful spells. It's not even close to the OP double magic that the sorcerer has anyway.
I had this concept pencilled in for an upgrade. LvL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 --------------------- 1: 2 (vanilla: 1) 2: 3 (vanilla: 2) 3: 4(vanilla: 2) 4: 5:4 (vanilla: 2) 6: 7: 5 (vanilla: 2) 8: 9: 5(vanilla: 2) 10: 11:6(vanilla: 3) 12: 13: 7 14: 15:8 16: 17:9(5e: 4) 18: 19: 20:
I think that having 5 fireballs at level 5 would be too strong when a Wizard gets 2 (+1 if they recover).
But at 7-8 they are getting 1-2 L4s and 3 L3, which can be 4-5 fireballs +1 from recovery. So I bumped Warlock up to 5 there. At 13, 15, 17 Wizards are +1 top level slot, so Warlocks needs at least an extra L5 slot at those levels.
But yeah maybe it's still not enough - I don't have a high level game to test in. Could make it 6 slots at level 9, then +1 every 2 after - but we have to remember that Warlocks also have the great Eldritch Blast for 3 x D10+5 at level 10+.
Anyway, being able to cast more fireballs isn't as big a bonus as you might think. How many enemies will be waiting patiently in large clusters outside the areas where your party members are standing? In real combat, you'll be lucky if you can cast two fireballs.
And full casters have more spell slots, a MUCH larger selection of spells, and the ability to freely change all spells after each rest. It's basically trading one quick push of brute force for the ability to practically prepare for any situation.
But I would still like to see 8 spells at lvl 12. :-)
Sandy, this gives Warlocks significantly fewer spells during the day. It is 100% a nerf. Which is fine if what you want is to weaken Warlocks or make a more challenging game, but if you wanted to buff them, then your calculations may be off.
This isn't designed to buff Warlocks, but to keep them roughly level.
Bearing in mind that long rest resources are stronger than short rest resources - you can pool them, choose when to use them, and have more in fights by using a lot of long rests - how many do you think they should have?
Bearing in mind that long rest resources are stronger than short rest resources
That's precisely the problem. They're not.
Short rests cost you no resources, they don't require that you return to camp, and they don't advance time sensitive quests. It is much better to recover a resource after a short rest than a long rest because you can use them pretty much after every fight.
That is precisely the advantage that a Warlock brings to the table. He stays powerful throughout the whole day, you don't need to manage his resources as much as you do with other spellcasters. Which means you can take more fights.
Sure, you could just take a long rest after every single fight. That's not something most people do or want to do. It's unimmersive and wasteful.
how many do you think they should have?
Let me show you the problem with that:
A Wizard at level 12 gets 16 spells slots. A Warlock at the same level gets 3.
However, out of those 16, only 2 are level 5. For the Warlock all 3 of the are level 5.
But because the Warlock replenishes those after short resting, you'll get as many as 9 per day. That's only with short rests. A bard can cast song of rest (can be done multiple times) which will add 3 more evey time, and Angelic potions (which are normally rather weak since they only replenish 1 and 2 level slots) can also get him back to full strength. Let's limit each one of those to one per day, that's 15.
In other words, doubling the number from 3 to 6 is a massive nerf. Any number that you provide lower than 9 is a nerf.
But to keep balance here, the game doesn't give them to you all at once. 9 - 15 Level 5 spells from one character in one fight will absolutely break the game. The system isn't designed to accomodate that. And you don't need it anyway, no fight is that difficult.
Short rests cost you no resources, they don't require that you return to camp, and they don't advance time sensitive quests. It is much better to recover a resource after a short rest than a long rest because you can use them pretty much after every fight.
Well yes of course - what I mean is that 3 long rest charges are better than 1 short rest charge (3 per day).
That is precisely the advantage that a Warlock brings to the table. He stays powerful throughout the whole day, you don't need to manage his resources as much as you do with other spellcasters. Which means you can take more fights.
That's convenient, but it doesn't make the class strong.
Sure, you could just take a long rest after every single fight. That's not something most people do or want to do. It's unimmersive and wasteful.
You don't need to, you get 50% health back for free by short resting. You can fight small fights with cantrips and then heal back for any damage.
A Wizard at level 12 gets 16 spells slots. A Warlock at the same level gets 3.
However, out of those 16, only 2 are level 5. For the Warlock all 3 of the are level 5.
Yep - vanilla Warlocks are pretty anaemic in combat.
But because the Warlock replenishes those after short resting, you'll get as many as 9 per day. That's only with short rests. A bard can cast song of rest (can be done multiple times) which will add 3 more evey time, and Angelic potions (which are normally rather weak since they only replenish 1 and 2 level slots) can also get him back to full strength. Let's limit each one of those to one per day, that's 15.
You can. But it doesn't matter a whole lot unless you're trying to max out your camp supplies collection.
In other words, doubling the number from 3 to 6 is a massive nerf. Any number that you provide lower than 9 is a nerf.
But to keep balance here, the game doesn't give them to you all at once. 9 - 15 Level 5 spells from one character in one fight will absolutely break the game. The system isn't designed to accomodate that. And you don't need it anyway, no fight is that difficult.
So yes basically we agree, the long rest warlock has less sustain, but is stronger in a fight after resting, like other long rest casters. Resting is easy but power in a single fight is capped, making the long rest Warlock stronger where it counts. Vanilla Warlock was one of the weakest classes, due to the inability to have much effect in an important fight - they were good in the wrong places - killing 3 goblins faster by being able to spam high level spells and quickly recover them isn't a strong achievement.
A level 7 Wizard has 4 / 3 / 3 / 1. So 3 fireballs and a L4 spell, then some low level spells to finish up. A Warlock would have 4 upcasted fireballs, or maybe some Banishments, then followed up with 2x d10+4 damage Eldritch Blasts to finish up. So not too different, the Wizard is a probably a bit stronger due to spell choice and recover options. There's an argument for Pushing the Warlock up to 5 spell slots. I'm kinda interested in how all this plays out with spells like Hex and Shadow Blade. Those spells work well with short rest slots as they can be cast in the morning and remain past a short rest, they make the short rest resource act like a long rest resource. So any experience/insights on that welcome.
So, I don't think slots per day is really the issue here. This Warlock seems better for a strategic play than vanilla, but may be still a little weak (somewhat natural as it is balanced to the vanilla warlock not other classes).
Feels like you're coming at this from the perspective of "it's worse at something that vanilla class was good at it, so it's worse". I suggest you look at its strengths as well.
If what you want is a Warlock with a lot of spells per day, just play the vanilla Warlock. This is a variant that will play differently.
Also I think also what what you're hinting at here is that you'd prefer full cast progression - having more spells slots without tons of max level spells - you're welcome to make your own mod like that if you like. You can open this one up and vary it to be how you like.
I think also what what you're hinting at here is that you'd prefer full cast progression - having more spells slots without tons of max level spells - you're welcome to make your own mod like that if you like. You can open this one up and vary it to be how you like.
Not at all. the Warlock, as it is in vanilla is one of the strongest classes. I don't play Warlocks since there's already one in the party but I do keep Wyll around most of the time, specially for long days. Gale only comes up at the end once I've exhausted my short breaks.
I simply left a comment because this was a fundamentally strange mod to me since you're nerfing the warlock by removing the one feature everyone likes about this class.
But hey, if that's how you like it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I think it comes down to perspective. If your idea of "strong" is that they can get a lot done per day, then vanilla Warlocks are OK.
I tend to play tactical single save campaigns or at least attempt to complete a games without a death. In that context the ability to beat a tough boss or survive an ambush is key, and it doesn't matter how resting is needed so long as supplies are available - and I I've never been close to running out of supplies.
My measure of "strength" is based on the ability to complete a run without deaths - not how fast you can progress through lighter parts of the game. With my playstyle and playtest I've found this Warlock stronger, due to it's single battle strength.
I'm not using this mod personally, it's just an option that I'm throwing out there. I think I'm more likely to use my Short Rest Casters mod to standardise classes to be Short Rest focussed - and yes to me those casters feel significantly weaker for the same reasons. This is just part of my long rest classes that concept that I decided to throw up too.
As said already I'm willing to make a variant with more spells slots of that's why people want - I just don't have any intention to do full caster progression, as that's a substantial remake for a mod that is just a quick off the cuff release.
If a Warlock is going to be nerfed to having spellslots recover on a short rest, then they should basically be full casters and get the full spellslot progression. Otherwise why am I taking a warlock over any other caster then? 4 spellslots is not that many, especially considering they only ever recover on a long rest now.
This is probably a buff. What makes long rest characters good is that they can save up their resources for big fights by using basic attacks on weak enemies, and just heal through the damage taken with free healing from short rests. Warlocks have the best cantrips so can do this even better than other casters. This Warlock would have 4 top level spell slots (or 6+ L5 slots at L11+) ready for a big fight making it much stronger than the vanilla Warlock. BG3 has a lot of supplies and money available so you can easily long rest as needed to get spell slots back.
Also I would not change it to use regular spell slot progression, I don't see any reason to remove the Warlock flavour. Having more Warlock slots, e.g. 2.5x (5) or 3x (6) is possible, but this would be incredibly strong.
If you'd like one with more top level Warlock spell slots, let me know how many you think. I'm not doing regular caster progression though, it's too much work.
14 comments
Personally, I think something like this would be more appropriate.
1: 2 (vanilla: 1)
2: 3 (vanilla: 2)
3: 4 (vanilla: 2)
4:
5: 5 (vanilla: 2)
6:
7: 6 (vanilla: 2)
8:
9: 7 (vanilla: 2)
10:
11: 8 (vanilla: 3)
Warlock will still have fewer spell slots than a standard spellcaster and a smaller selection of spells, but he will gain the benefit of more powerful spells. It's not even close to the OP double magic that the sorcerer has anyway.
I had this concept pencilled in for an upgrade.
LvL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
---------------------
1: 2 (vanilla: 1)
2: 3 (vanilla: 2)
3: 4(vanilla: 2)
4:
5:4 (vanilla: 2)
6:
7: 5 (vanilla: 2)
8:
9: 5(vanilla: 2)
10:
11:6(vanilla: 3)
12:
13: 7
14:
15:8
16:
17:9(5e: 4)
18:
19:
20:
I think that having 5 fireballs at level 5 would be too strong when a Wizard gets 2 (+1 if they recover).
But at 7-8 they are getting 1-2 L4s and 3 L3, which can be 4-5 fireballs +1 from recovery. So I bumped Warlock up to 5 there. At 13, 15, 17 Wizards are +1 top level slot, so Warlocks needs at least an extra L5 slot at those levels.
But yeah maybe it's still not enough - I don't have a high level game to test in. Could make it 6 slots at level 9, then +1 every 2 after - but we have to remember that Warlocks also have the great Eldritch Blast for 3 x D10+5 at level 10+.
What do you think?
LvL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9---------------------
1: 2 (vanilla: 1)
2: 3 (vanilla: 2)
3: 4(vanilla: 2)
4:
5:4 (vanilla: 2)
6:
7: 5 (vanilla: 2)
8:
9: 6(vanilla: 2)
10:
11:7(vanilla: 3)
12:
13: 8
14:
15:9
16:
17:10(5e: 4)
18:
19:
20:
Feel free to give it a try, or leave any further feedback.
Cheers
Anyway, being able to cast more fireballs isn't as big a bonus as you might think.
How many enemies will be waiting patiently in large clusters outside the areas where your party members are standing?
In real combat, you'll be lucky if you can cast two fireballs.
And full casters have more spell slots, a MUCH larger selection of spells, and the ability to freely change all spells after each rest.
It's basically trading one quick push of brute force for the ability to practically prepare for any situation.
But I would still like to see 8 spells at lvl 12.
:-)
Change the contents of \Mods\Sandis Long Rest Warlock - Enhanced\ScriptExtender\Lua\Sandi_WarlockSpellSlots.lua to what's on pastebin
Bearing in mind that long rest resources are stronger than short rest resources - you can pool them, choose when to use them, and have more in fights by using a lot of long rests - how many do you think they should have?
That's precisely the problem. They're not.
Short rests cost you no resources, they don't require that you return to camp, and they don't advance time sensitive quests. It is much better to recover a resource after a short rest than a long rest because you can use them pretty much after every fight.
That is precisely the advantage that a Warlock brings to the table. He stays powerful throughout the whole day, you don't need to manage his resources as much as you do with other spellcasters. Which means you can take more fights.
Sure, you could just take a long rest after every single fight. That's not something most people do or want to do. It's unimmersive and wasteful.
Let me show you the problem with that:
A Wizard at level 12 gets 16 spells slots. A Warlock at the same level gets 3.
However, out of those 16, only 2 are level 5. For the Warlock all 3 of the are level 5.
But because the Warlock replenishes those after short resting, you'll get as many as 9 per day. That's only with short rests. A bard can cast song of rest (can be done multiple times) which will add 3 more evey time, and Angelic potions (which are normally rather weak since they only replenish 1 and 2 level slots) can also get him back to full strength. Let's limit each one of those to one per day, that's 15.
In other words, doubling the number from 3 to 6 is a massive nerf. Any number that you provide lower than 9 is a nerf.
But to keep balance here, the game doesn't give them to you all at once. 9 - 15 Level 5 spells from one character in one fight will absolutely break the game. The system isn't designed to accomodate that. And you don't need it anyway, no fight is that difficult.
Well yes of course - what I mean is that 3 long rest charges are better than 1 short rest charge (3 per day).
That's convenient, but it doesn't make the class strong.
You don't need to, you get 50% health back for free by short resting. You can fight small fights with cantrips and then heal back for any damage.
Yep - vanilla Warlocks are pretty anaemic in combat.
You can. But it doesn't matter a whole lot unless you're trying to max out your camp supplies collection.
So yes basically we agree, the long rest warlock has less sustain, but is stronger in a fight after resting, like other long rest casters. Resting is easy but power in a single fight is capped, making the long rest Warlock stronger where it counts. Vanilla Warlock was one of the weakest classes, due to the inability to have much effect in an important fight - they were good in the wrong places - killing 3 goblins faster by being able to spam high level spells and quickly recover them isn't a strong achievement.
A level 7 Wizard has 4 / 3 / 3 / 1. So 3 fireballs and a L4 spell, then some low level spells to finish up. A Warlock would have 4 upcasted fireballs, or maybe some Banishments, then followed up with 2x d10+4 damage Eldritch Blasts to finish up. So not too different, the Wizard is a probably a bit stronger due to spell choice and recover options. There's an argument for Pushing the Warlock up to 5 spell slots. I'm kinda interested in how all this plays out with spells like Hex and Shadow Blade. Those spells work well with short rest slots as they can be cast in the morning and remain past a short rest, they make the short rest resource act like a long rest resource. So any experience/insights on that welcome.
So, I don't think slots per day is really the issue here. This Warlock seems better for a strategic play than vanilla, but may be still a little weak (somewhat natural as it is balanced to the vanilla warlock not other classes).
Feels like you're coming at this from the perspective of "it's worse at something that vanilla class was good at it, so it's worse". I suggest you look at its strengths as well.
If what you want is a Warlock with a lot of spells per day, just play the vanilla Warlock. This is a variant that will play differently.
Also I think also what what you're hinting at here is that you'd prefer full cast progression - having more spells slots without tons of max level spells - you're welcome to make your own mod like that if you like. You can open this one up and vary it to be how you like.
Not at all. the Warlock, as it is in vanilla is one of the strongest classes. I don't play Warlocks since there's already one in the party but I do keep Wyll around most of the time, specially for long days. Gale only comes up at the end once I've exhausted my short breaks.
I simply left a comment because this was a fundamentally strange mod to me since you're nerfing the warlock by removing the one feature everyone likes about this class.
But hey, if that's how you like it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I tend to play tactical single save campaigns or at least attempt to complete a games without a death. In that context the ability to beat a tough boss or survive an ambush is key, and it doesn't matter how resting is needed so long as supplies are available - and I I've never been close to running out of supplies.
My measure of "strength" is based on the ability to complete a run without deaths - not how fast you can progress through lighter parts of the game. With my playstyle and playtest I've found this Warlock stronger, due to it's single battle strength.
I'm not using this mod personally, it's just an option that I'm throwing out there. I think I'm more likely to use my Short Rest Casters mod to standardise classes to be Short Rest focussed - and yes to me those casters feel significantly weaker for the same reasons. This is just part of my long rest classes that concept that I decided to throw up too.
As said already I'm willing to make a variant with more spells slots of that's why people want - I just don't have any intention to do full caster progression, as that's a substantial remake for a mod that is just a quick off the cuff release.
Also I would not change it to use regular spell slot progression, I don't see any reason to remove the Warlock flavour. Having more Warlock slots, e.g. 2.5x (5) or 3x (6) is possible, but this would be incredibly strong.