quick question - after gaining some points (for example additional 100 Stamina) its needs more Exp for 1 point, or its alwayes same Exp for 1 point? I mean its same time when you have 0 bonus points or 1000 bonus points in atribute, or every point increasing Exp for next point?
I decided to download and edit the source code. Since I'm new to Skyrim modding, it was a little tricky getting set up to edit and compile, but the script itself was very readable. If you'd like, I can post the source code on Google Docs and give you a link, and you can decide if you want to incorporate any of my changes. If not, would you mind if I uploaded my version to Nexus?
Anyway, here's what's changed in my edited version:
Previously, you would gain e.g. health XP just by having low health, which opened the door to "exploits" if health regeneration was disable for any reason (it would also encourage you not to heal yourself, instead allowing yourself to regenerate naturally in order to maximize XP gain). No more. Now you only gain XP when you lose health (or magicka, or stamina), but the XP gained is multiplied by an amount that depends on how much you have left. To clarify, if you lose 40% of your e.g. magicka, then the base XP gain is 40, but if that also drains you to 0% magicka, then you'll get 4x the XP, or 160 XP in this case, whereas going from 100% to 60% would only give you 40*1.6 = 64 XP. This only affects health, magicka, and stamina; carry weight is unaffected.
Attributes can now decay. If health, magicka, or stamina drop below a certain threshold (the "breakpoint" in the MCM), then you'll stop getting XP and instead accumulate decay. Decay is calculated the same way health, magicka, and stamina were before I made my edits. This means you're in big trouble if regeneration is disable and you're below the breakpoint, and it encourages you to heal yourself as fast as possible. Decay is not attribute-specific, rather once you've accumulated enough decay it will decrease all your attributes by 1 point (but only if they've been increased by at least 1 point through usage).
Decay also accumulates slowly over time. By default, without dropping below any breakpoints, you're attributes will decay by 1 point each every hour of play. If you don't use it, you'll lose it.
New options have been added to the MCM. You can adjust all three breakpoints (set to 0 to disable), the decay rate, enable/disable decay, the decay over time (set to 0 to disable), and the XP multiplier when your attributes are low. You can also see how close you are to decaying and how many points you've lost to decay.
Testing:
I started a new gain and played until just a little after reaching Riverwood. By the time I'd left Helgen, I had gained 1 magicka, 10 stamina, and 5 carry weight (I took everything that wasn't nailed down, and then used power attacks to speed myself up once I was overburdened). I didn't gain any health because the unmodded game is a pansy and holds your hand. By the time I left Riverwood, I'd gained 1 magicka, 17 stamina, and 8 carry weight (total values). Still no health because the game is still a pansy. Then I decided to attack a group of imperials escorting a Stormcloak prisoner, and the game decided to stop being a pansy. After reloading, I went and jumped in the blacksmith's forge and healed myself, until I finally gained a few points of health. Reloading my save in Riverwood shows I have only 4% decay, whereas I'd gained 26 attribute points already.
I adjusted the values slightly after this test. Health and magicka should be just slightly slower than in my test, and stamina is a bit more slow. Otherwise, it's basically the same.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, I did test decay to make sure it was working. It was a different test from the above. I did verify that it would not decrease attributes that had not been increased yet, and it would correctly reduce the "attributes gained" shown in the MCM as well as your actual attributes. The decay over time is pretty slow, but if you let your health, magicka, or stamina (disable by default) get too low, then decay will accelerate significantly.
That was how I was originally going to do it, but then I began to wonder how carry weight was supposed to decay. Thinking about it more, it made more sense that a debilitating injury would reduce your ability in all areas, including carry weight. Attribute-specific decay made sense for health, magicka, and stamina, but I just couldn't figure something out for carry weight. Does being over encumbered cause your carry weight to decay? On the other hand, does emptying your inventory cause your carry weight to decrease? Either way didn't make a whole lot of sense, and for low-weight decay, I'd expect most players to carry enough loot around to prevent that anyway (their personal gear, if nothing else).
If you can think of a good way to implement carry weight decay separate from the other attributes, then I might see if I can work it in. I kind of like it this way, though.
Well done, very good job! Imho it deserves its own Nexus page (the edits you made change enough that it can be considered a different mod, derived from this one).
If you decide to upload it please post the link here, I'll add it to this mod's description.
Here it is: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/76455/?
I've rebranded the mod under the slightly-less-informative-but-much-catchier name Natural Character Growth and Decay (or NCGD for short). Enjoy, everyone! And big thanks to Uoud for making the original mod and allowing me to modify it to create NCGD.
This is awesome, I used to use a mod like this way back in the day, but I think it caused save bloat and was eventually taken down. You guys are great! I'm always happy to see when part of the community likes to play the same way I do. I was curious, haven't had time to test this as I'm doing the long process of DynDOLOD and Skyproccer patching now, but does carry weight go up any other way? Like if I disable the vanilla level up attributes but still want to gain some carry weight at each level up, could I just set that in the uncapper settings and gain those bonuses while letting your mod take care of my attributes? I generally treat carry weight as more inventory space than strength, as I keep the gains to it very low and mostly force you to use backpacks, bandoliers and other capacity-increasing apparel. Obviously, taking that approach, it wouldn't make much sense to gain more inventory space by carrying stuff around. Thanks again for taking the initiative to work on this, glad to see the modding scene isn't going anywhere for a while, despite Beth dropping the ball on that whole Fallout 4 console thing...
You can disable attribute gains for each attribute individually, so yes, in theory it should work. I'm uncertain how the uncapper settings will interact with the part of the script that disables vanilla leveling, though.
" Then I decided to attack a group of imperials escorting a Stormcloak prisoner, and the game decided to stop being a pansy" LOL. This gem is a must-have for me and anything to improve is very welcome, thanks for this and thanks for @Uoud for implementing such a visionary mod. The next step for Bethesda to improve the system IMO.
I recently felt the urge to play Skyrim again and this mod caught my eye while I was setting up my mods. I'm still downloading and setting up mods and patches, so I haven't gotten a chance to try this out yet, but I was wondering if you could maybe pretty please look into a potential compatibility issue?
Another set of mods I have my eye on is the Epic Gameplay Overhaul, and the one in particular that concerns me is the Simple Magic Overhaul ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/58051/? ).
First, SMO makes spellcasting riskier by encouraging mages to push their Magicka as low as possible, but punishes them if it gets too low. The relevant point here is that your Magicka stops regenerating and begins draining if you drop below 30%, necessitating using a potion or resting to recover your Magicka. This opens up a potential exploit with your mod where a player could drain their Magicka to 0 while in a safe location and then just rake in the Magicka XP while doing their shopping, chopping firewood, or just waiting around. A simple fix would be adding an option to disable attribute XP gain if that attribute drops below a certain threshold.
The other point of concern is that SMO makes it much harder to become a mage by reducing your initial Magicka (-100 for most races, -50 for Bretons and 0 for High Elves). Now, obviously you can't increase your Magicka if you don't have more than 0, since you'll never be able to have below 100%. That's not the issue I'm concerned with, and in fact I see this as a feature rather than a bug. It makes becoming a mage a quest all on its own (just stack up enough Fortify Magicka effects and start practicing). The only thing I am concerned about is double-checking that your mod won't break if you have negative Health/Magicka/Fatigue values.
I understand you have other things to do, but if you could take the time to look into this I'd greatly appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll report back here once I've had a chance to test both mods in-game. (It could take me a few more days to get all my mods downloaded and set up properly.)
It is actually possible that the script will interpret a 0/-100 magicka as a 0%, thus forcibly leveling it until it goes to +1... regardless, a soft incompatibility is pretty much sure (= it should not crash your game, but as you noted the two mods will not behave). It may crash when your max Magicka reaches 0 though.
Adding a check against this would make the script heavier, and for just one mod imho it wouldn't be worth it... the best course of action, if you don't want or know how to modify scripts, would probably be to just disable Magicka leveling and use the vanilla levelup for it. (EDIT: You'll probably need to disable this mod while your max Magicka is 0; simply disabling the leveling won't prevent the percentage check.)
Alternatively, if you want, I could make an optional patch specifically tuned for SMO (maybe one that maximizes Magicka leveling at a point other than 0%); it shouldn't be too hard, but I'm not adding this to the "base" mod, sorry.
I'll look into making a patch later today or tomorrow, if you wish. EDIT: Or maybe not. You see, this is similar to the issue with Requiem (though this one is much worse): I *could* put together a patch for it, but it would probably end up being worse than the bug since I'm not too willing to alter my installed mods in the middle of a playthrough (which means that it would get little to no testing). Sorry... the best course of action is definitely to either disable this mod until you have more than 0 magicka or simply not install both mods at the same time.
Thanks for taking the time to look into it. If nothing else perhaps I can force my magicka to be 1 (which should be enough to make the mod work, but not enough to actually cast any spells), wait until I fulfill some arbitrary condition (say, when I reach level 10), then set it to 10 or something and begin training.
I'm not sure what sort of wizardry you're using to make your mod work (I am, admittedly, a complete newb to Skyrim modding). Looking up the scripting/console commands indicates that "player.getav health" returns both current AND max health. It doesn't take Phoenix Wright to see the contradiction in that statement. In-game testing shows that it returns only the current health, not max health.
I'm still downloading patches and mods, so I haven't had a chance to download and look at your mod yet. I assume you are somehow finding the players current health/magicka/stamina/carry weight as well as their max health/magicka/stamina/carry weight, and then dividing the first by the second to get the percentage. Regardless, from your post it sounds like you're probably using division somewhere and that division by 0 would be an issue. How difficult/script heavy would it be to add the following checks to your mod?
if ( MaxHealth <= 0 ) ;repeat for magicka, stamina, and carry weight then DoNothing [end of script] else if (CurrentHealth <= 0 ) then [treat as if health were at 0%] else [run the script normally]
I don't know how your script works, but if it works the way I suspect it does, this would eliminate a whole host of incompatibilities with only a trivial increase in the script load. If you don't feel like this is worth it for most users, maybe you could split your mod into a "Lite" version (the current version) and a "Compatibility" version (with the above checks).
If you don't have time or don't feel inclined to work on this, would you mind if I looked into it and either sent you a patch/modified version or uploaded it myself? I'd also be interested in looking into modifying the sweet spot for XP gain and/or adding a cut-off point if an attribute gets too low, which may or may not be interesting to most people.
I assume you are somehow finding the players current health/magicka/stamina/carry weight as well as their max health/magicka/stamina/carry weight, and then dividing the first by the second to get the percentage.
(P.S. Oh, I did think about negative values after all... I inserted a check against them, then forgot about it
)
How difficult/script heavy would it be to add the following checks to your mod?
Not much actually... it's just papyrus, who creates problems in managing any load, thus it's generally better to keep it at the essential bare minimum - especially in the OnUpdate event.
Since I'm using one of the game's functions it is very much possible it has the check already; the problem is if it does not have it, which I haven't checked. So first you should check if the percentage check has any check that checks when the max is 0 and prevents the check from checking an invalid check, and if it doesn't have the check then a check has to be added to the percentage check.
I'd also be interested in looking into modifying the sweet spot for XP gain and/or adding a cut-off point if an attribute gets too low, which may or may not be interesting to most people.
Sure, do as you most see fit; the source code is uploaded here on the Nexus. Please test it before sending or uploading it, though.
Curious with Requiem issue.. May I ask what it is? I used it with my Requiem playthrough and see no problem.. In fact, with 1k, 2k, 4k tactic for HMS it takes almost 20 level before my stats actually match the standard +5 that Requiem grants at each levelup.
The problem with Requiem is from one of your earlier posts:
Andddd.... that will be broken in Requiem as we dont have innate HP regen at all.. so we can just take a bit of fall damage and stay for a week while our hp accumulated.
But since it seems that you tested it quite extensively and found it to not be a problem, I'm removing the warning from the mod's description... thanks!
I broke down and grabbed this early to test it. I'm happy to report that there seems to be no issues with negative or 0 values of magicka (and, I assume, other attributes). The game neither crashed nor gave magicka XP, so it should work out of the box with SMO aside from the potential exploit. It's past 1 AM here, so I should head to bed, but I have the day off and may poke around in the creation kit to see if I can whip something up. I have a few ideas for how this mod could be expanded, although it will certainly make the script load heavier.
EDIT: Oh, something else I thought I should mention. I tested it with the mage hood you find in the cell in Helgen that has a +30 Fortify Magicka effect on it. It works fine. It seems the script function you're using does take Fortify effects into consideration, which is good.
I love this mod, I had to give up Alternate Leveling as I was getting annoyed by a few of its bugs. This mod does the job, oh sure it won't give me bonuses to spell's duration/damage, weapon attack damage, movement. attack speed, etc, but at least I won't have to constantly deal with a few of A.L's bug, plus considering this mod is much lighter, my game isn't being bogged down.
I believe this is the next step for Bethesda and I'm glad you decided to share this gem. Probably will make a must-have for every playthrough I do, thank you deeply.
First of all, incredibe job, this mods are great deal when you just don´t want the vanilla system and you actually want to feel things are happening naturally.
I have used this previously and I´m almost back to it after making a slight... clean of my mods.
But there´s one thing that scares me about using it for my latest playthrough though; as far as I know, there´s no in-game cap to it, so if I were to use my stamina too much, eventually my stats of it would become humongous. Sadly, I´m trying to achieve a perfect balance between enemy stats and my own, so it´s become rather complex :p .
Would there be a way to cap maximum stamina stats on my own end without hassling you?
In the latest version, individual attributes' leveling can be disabled at any time (as requested by deane9850)... so, you can just disable (or simply slow it down if you prefer) the Stamina leveling when it reaches or approaches the cap you want.
Can I humbly ask for 1 tiny tiny update.. No carry weight increase. I used 5k and it still be a tad too fast.. Since both overhaul I'm using adds carry weight of its own, Requiem adds carry weight based on % of your total health + stamina while YASH gives out flat CW each level (but based on races), it adds too much.
So its kind of like Alternative Leveling mod, but alot more simple. Only thing missing is to have the leveling automaticly done without the whole "Select your attribute on level up" message.
I`m a bit confused. If you still have to level your stats manually by selecting the attribute on level up, then what is it exactly that this mod is doing for me?
I thought the whole point of it was to make the attributes level automatically.
By totally ignoring the level up system. Your skills dont level your level, so you basically a level 1 forever. Then he use setlevel to increase your level manually, give you a perk.
I`m a bit confused. If you still have to level your stats manually by selecting the attribute on level up, then what is it exactly that this mod is doing for me?
I thought the whole point of it was to make the attributes level automatically.
This mod simply save your current base stat and simply restore it back after you leave the level up page.
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I mean its same time when you have 0 bonus points or 1000 bonus points in atribute, or every point increasing Exp for next point?
Anyway, here's what's changed in my edited version:
Previously, you would gain e.g. health XP just by having low health, which opened the door to "exploits" if health regeneration was disable for any reason (it would also encourage you not to heal yourself, instead allowing yourself to regenerate naturally in order to maximize XP gain). No more. Now you only gain XP when you lose health (or magicka, or stamina), but the XP gained is multiplied by an amount that depends on how much you have left. To clarify, if you lose 40% of your e.g. magicka, then the base XP gain is 40, but if that also drains you to 0% magicka, then you'll get 4x the XP, or 160 XP in this case, whereas going from 100% to 60% would only give you 40*1.6 = 64 XP. This only affects health, magicka, and stamina; carry weight is unaffected.
Attributes can now decay. If health, magicka, or stamina drop below a certain threshold (the "breakpoint" in the MCM), then you'll stop getting XP and instead accumulate decay. Decay is calculated the same way health, magicka, and stamina were before I made my edits. This means you're in big trouble if regeneration is disable and you're below the breakpoint, and it encourages you to heal yourself as fast as possible. Decay is not attribute-specific, rather once you've accumulated enough decay it will decrease all your attributes by 1 point (but only if they've been increased by at least 1 point through usage).
Decay also accumulates slowly over time. By default, without dropping below any breakpoints, you're attributes will decay by 1 point each every hour of play. If you don't use it, you'll lose it.
New options have been added to the MCM. You can adjust all three breakpoints (set to 0 to disable), the decay rate, enable/disable decay, the decay over time (set to 0 to disable), and the XP multiplier when your attributes are low. You can also see how close you are to decaying and how many points you've lost to decay.
Testing:
I started a new gain and played until just a little after reaching Riverwood. By the time I'd left Helgen, I had gained 1 magicka, 10 stamina, and 5 carry weight (I took everything that wasn't nailed down, and then used power attacks to speed myself up once I was overburdened). I didn't gain any health because the unmodded game is a pansy and holds your hand. By the time I left Riverwood, I'd gained 1 magicka, 17 stamina, and 8 carry weight (total values). Still no health because the game is still a pansy. Then I decided to attack a group of imperials escorting a Stormcloak prisoner, and the game decided to stop being a pansy. After reloading, I went and jumped in the blacksmith's forge and healed myself, until I finally gained a few points of health. Reloading my save in Riverwood shows I have only 4% decay, whereas I'd gained 26 attribute points already.
I adjusted the values slightly after this test. Health and magicka should be just slightly slower than in my test, and stamina is a bit more slow. Otherwise, it's basically the same.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, I did test decay to make sure it was working. It was a different test from the above. I did verify that it would not decrease attributes that had not been increased yet, and it would correctly reduce the "attributes gained" shown in the MCM as well as your actual attributes. The decay over time is pretty slow, but if you let your health, magicka, or stamina (disable by default) get too low, then decay will accelerate significantly.
If you can think of a good way to implement carry weight decay separate from the other attributes, then I might see if I can work it in. I kind of like it this way, though.
Imho it deserves its own Nexus page (the edits you made change enough that it can be considered a different mod, derived from this one).
If you decide to upload it please post the link here, I'll add it to this mod's description.
I've rebranded the mod under the slightly-less-informative-but-much-catchier name Natural Character Growth and Decay (or NCGD for short). Enjoy, everyone! And big thanks to Uoud for making the original mod and allowing me to modify it to create NCGD.
Another set of mods I have my eye on is the Epic Gameplay Overhaul, and the one in particular that concerns me is the Simple Magic Overhaul ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/58051/? ).
First, SMO makes spellcasting riskier by encouraging mages to push their Magicka as low as possible, but punishes them if it gets too low. The relevant point here is that your Magicka stops regenerating and begins draining if you drop below 30%, necessitating using a potion or resting to recover your Magicka. This opens up a potential exploit with your mod where a player could drain their Magicka to 0 while in a safe location and then just rake in the Magicka XP while doing their shopping, chopping firewood, or just waiting around. A simple fix would be adding an option to disable attribute XP gain if that attribute drops below a certain threshold.
The other point of concern is that SMO makes it much harder to become a mage by reducing your initial Magicka (-100 for most races, -50 for Bretons and 0 for High Elves). Now, obviously you can't increase your Magicka if you don't have more than 0, since you'll never be able to have below 100%. That's not the issue I'm concerned with, and in fact I see this as a feature rather than a bug. It makes becoming a mage a quest all on its own (just stack up enough Fortify Magicka effects and start practicing). The only thing I am concerned about is double-checking that your mod won't break if you have negative Health/Magicka/Fatigue values.
I understand you have other things to do, but if you could take the time to look into this I'd greatly appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll report back here once I've had a chance to test both mods in-game. (It could take me a few more days to get all my mods downloaded and set up properly.)
It may crash when your max Magicka reaches 0 though.
Adding a check against this would make the script heavier, and for just one mod imho it wouldn't be worth it... the best course of action, if you don't want or know how to modify scripts, would probably be to just disable Magicka leveling and use the vanilla levelup for it.
(EDIT: You'll probably need to disable this mod while your max Magicka is 0; simply disabling the leveling won't prevent the percentage check.)
Alternatively, if you want, I could make an optional patch specifically tuned for SMO (maybe one that maximizes Magicka leveling at a point other than 0%); it shouldn't be too hard, but I'm not adding this to the "base" mod, sorry.
I'll look into making a patch later today or tomorrow, if you wish.
EDIT: Or maybe not.
You see, this is similar to the issue with Requiem (though this one is much worse): I *could* put together a patch for it, but it would probably end up being worse than the bug since I'm not too willing to alter my installed mods in the middle of a playthrough (which means that it would get little to no testing).
Sorry... the best course of action is definitely to either disable this mod until you have more than 0 magicka or simply not install both mods at the same time.
I'm not sure what sort of wizardry you're using to make your mod work (I am, admittedly, a complete newb to Skyrim modding). Looking up the scripting/console commands indicates that "player.getav health" returns both current AND max health. It doesn't take Phoenix Wright to see the contradiction in that statement. In-game testing shows that it returns only the current health, not max health.
I'm still downloading patches and mods, so I haven't had a chance to download and look at your mod yet. I assume you are somehow finding the players current health/magicka/stamina/carry weight as well as their max health/magicka/stamina/carry weight, and then dividing the first by the second to get the percentage. Regardless, from your post it sounds like you're probably using division somewhere and that division by 0 would be an issue. How difficult/script heavy would it be to add the following checks to your mod?
if ( MaxHealth <= 0 ) ;repeat for magicka, stamina, and carry weight
then DoNothing [end of script]
else if (CurrentHealth <= 0 )
then [treat as if health were at 0%]
else [run the script normally]
I don't know how your script works, but if it works the way I suspect it does, this would eliminate a whole host of incompatibilities with only a trivial increase in the script load. If you don't feel like this is worth it for most users, maybe you could split your mod into a "Lite" version (the current version) and a "Compatibility" version (with the above checks).
If you don't have time or don't feel inclined to work on this, would you mind if I looked into it and either sent you a patch/modified version or uploaded it myself? I'd also be interested in looking into modifying the sweet spot for XP gain and/or adding a cut-off point if an attribute gets too low, which may or may not be interesting to most people.
http://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=GetActorValuePercentage_-_Actor
(P.S. Oh, I did think about negative values after all... I inserted a check against them, then forgot about it
Not much actually... it's just papyrus, who creates problems in managing any load, thus it's generally better to keep it at the essential bare minimum - especially in the OnUpdate event.
Since I'm using one of the game's functions it is very much possible it has the check already; the problem is if it does not have it, which I haven't checked.
So first you should check if the percentage check has any check that checks when the max is 0 and prevents the check from checking an invalid check, and if it doesn't have the check then a check has to be added to the percentage check.
Sure, do as you most see fit; the source code is uploaded here on the Nexus.
Please test it before sending or uploading it, though.
But since it seems that you tested it quite extensively and found it to not be a problem, I'm removing the warning from the mod's description... thanks!
EDIT: Oh, something else I thought I should mention. I tested it with the mage hood you find in the cell in Helgen that has a +30 Fortify Magicka effect on it. It works fine. It seems the script function you're using does take Fortify effects into consideration, which is good.
Well.. I'm a fool. I retract my earlier comment of this mod.
Simply brilliant. +kudos.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtO7kz4cc8g
At 5:13 mark!
I have used this previously and I´m almost back to it after making a slight... clean of my mods.
But there´s one thing that scares me about using it for my latest playthrough though; as far as I know, there´s no in-game cap to it, so if I were to use my stamina too much, eventually my stats of it would become humongous. Sadly, I´m trying to achieve a perfect balance between enemy stats and my own, so it´s become rather complex :p .
Would there be a way to cap maximum stamina stats on my own end without hassling you?
Thanks for your time...
(first post on Nexus evah
Thanks for the quick reply, I´ll be having some good fun with it.
Thank you.
I thought the whole point of it was to make the attributes level automatically.
Would you mind reading this mod's description? It's explained there.
By totally ignoring the level up system. Your skills dont level your level, so you basically a level 1 forever. Then he use setlevel to increase your level manually, give you a perk.
This mod simply save your current base stat and simply restore it back after you leave the level up page.