Hey Niklass, great work on your mod! Unfortunately, the only change to leveling that interests me (outside of what I can do with Uncapper) is removing the full-restore on level-up. Well, actually, the "perfect" leveling mod for me would:
* no heal on level-up * level-up only after sleeping (first message tells you to sleep, second message when you wake up says to open your menu)
but I would certainly be content with just the first feature.
Do you have any advice for me on how to make my own mod to do so? If you're feeling like being completely awesome, is there any chance you'd make such a mod yourself?
I am really interesting in a system like this for future play. But am I understanding it right? So one thing you do is replace the level up of Stamina, Magicka and Health attributes with your level up system of combat, stealth, and magic instead and the bonuses you give for them. So in other words....
vanilla: select health = +10 health attribute stamina = +10 Stamina and increases carrying capacity by five magicka = +10 magicka
but your mod changes the level up from that to Leveling Redesigned: where using skills in game under combat trees leads to auto combat, stealth trees leads to auto stealth ect. auto Combat:: 10 Health, 5 Carrying Capacity, 1 Combat Perk Stealth:: 10 Stamina, 0,5% Health, Stamina and Magicka regeneration, 1 Stealth Perk. Magic:: 10 Magicka, 0,5% magic resist, 1 Magic Perk.
I think that this system you set up for your mod, if the right balance is found, can definitely enhance immersion in a more skillful way than other mods that tried similar systems. However I like others, believe it needs a bit more balancing. I would suggest something more akin to but not exactly like...
combat:: + ___ health, + ___ stamina, configurable bonus to carry capacity, 1 combat perk stealth:: + ___health regen, + ___stamina regen, +___magicka regen, 1 stealth perk magic:: + ___ magicka, + ___ health, 1 magic perk, and either less movement penalties (running doesn't lower stamina, increased backward movement speed or ect. requiring a certain number of level ups of magicka to take effect so as to not get OP) or small health resistance
A pure combat player who doesn't want to level very much sneak or magic will need health, and stamina but not magicka. Especially important on the stamina do to the number of popular combat mods on the nexus that make stamina more important (deadly combat, duel combat realism, ultimate combat). Even with the vanilla game more stamina is used for combat related shield bash. I would make the bonus to carry capacity configurable if possible do to those hardcore players who like the mods which reduce each races carry capacity for realism and make them use backpacks and pouches to carry extra weight. A pure combat player will need health, and stamina but not magicka.
A pure magic user should need health and magicka and not stamina in the same way as combat tree users but could benefit from movement perks. Or instead you could give a small bonus to magic resistance but I would suggest a low or configurable bonus. In vanilla skyrim magic resistance can become way to OP and a pure mage can level a lot in magic.
A pure stealth player will also use some of the combat tree for their kills so I made stealth have health and stamina regen. Stealth players can still get combat carry weight bonuses if they go that route. Alternatively if a stealth user installs a mod that allows them to use magic more stealthily then they can be a stealth mage and benefit from the magic level up bonuses. The way I built my suggestions I gave each auto stat 4 bonuses. You should also be able to be well rounded using some combat, stealth and magic in theory.
Again compared to other similar mods I've seen that have tried to implement similar systems yours is most promising. Others required script dragon and had less compatibility, or did not cover perk selection or suit my tastes. I'll be watching development. much appreciated
Thanks. Yes, that's how it works. At first I actually assigned a lot of the skills secondary experience gains such as Alchemy also giving you a smaller amount of Magic experience or Restoration giving you Combat experience. I felt it diminished the impact of which skills you used.
With your suggested bonuses Stealth seems kinda pointless while Combat seems like the best. Movement bonuses are very iffy and can easily get out of hand and make combat trivial. Magic resistance is calculated multiplicatively by the game and it's just 0,5% per level. Running already doesn't cost Stamina in the vanilla game or are you referring to sprinting? I also don't think getting speed bonuses by casting makes sense.
I've used my bonuses for several characters now and I think they work very well. I've never had a character that was just screwed up due to his attributes. But I also like that which skills you use matters and you should have think about how you want to play your character to get a decent combination. That's how you had to play in the previous games and it's still a lot less restrictive than that but I like that it's something to consider. I also have a system which makes a specialization level faster if you hadn't increased it for a while. I don't think the balance concerns hold up once you've played with it.
Thank you for the reply. I think it was very constructive toward my proposals and I see why you would not use movement or speed bonuses (yes, I meant sprinting). My main concern was that it looks like your bonuses could make stealth to important for any character even if they wanted to be a warrior berserker and not use stealth, and combat to important for every character even if they want to be a pure mage and not use combat. My most important suggestions were to enhance choice through allowing a mage character to also gain health without having to use combat, and allowing a warrior to also gain stamina without having to use stealth. Those are my main concerns regarding adding this to my must try mods. I should have been a little clearer about it in my previous comment too. But I did read you were taking suggestions, so I'm glad to offer.
However, if I'm understanding you correctly your vision is a little different? That you want players to have to balance a combination of the skills in play? That is an interesting take on playing the game as well. You said it was based on older games, which I have not played yet. If it's not to hard you could always make an alternate system which allows more build choice like I was concerned, in addition to the first.
I don't really see Stealth being an issue because Alchemy, Lockpicking, Speech and Sneak are all Stealth skills and at least Lockpicking and Speech are things that everybody uses. The only problem I could see is playing a pure mage that doesn't use any combat skills. That could be problematic. I don't know if I like the idea of just adding health to to the magic bonuses. There's something elegant about Combat = health, Stealth = Stamina, Magic = Magicka. I mean you could always use enchanting to put more health on your gear. Maybe I'll try play a pure mage as my next character and see how it goes.
To contribute on the discussion: I think we could very well take old d&d progression as example, we can divide a class basically into those catagoeries: Hit points, Combat ability (wepons and armor use), Magic power (spells), Resistence (saving throws).
What I mean here, is nobody got 0 on anything. Even mage got a small hit points bonus every level up. Fighter magic can be considered magical item use (there was some only fighters could use).
Maybe you could balance like this: Health Magicka Stamina Combat 613 Magic 262 Stealth226
Some calculation would be needed to know how many levels you get from leveling all skills from a branch.
Edit: Probably we want to have aways 10 points per level to keep vanilla attribute progression.
Update 1.3c: Because I based the XP caps for the stealth, combat, magic levels on the current level, you would have gained XP in those quicker if you saved your lvl ups for quite a while. To fix this I now base the XP caps on the level you would be having after you've leveled up.
For shits and giggles here's the code (math powered by uesp): Game.GetExperienceForLevel(Math.Floor(-2.5 + Math.Sqrt(8 * (Game.GetPlayerExperience() + 12.5 * CurrentLVL * CurrentLVL + 62.5 * CurrentLVL - 75) + 1225) / 10)
Also the idea with the new Level System is very nice, but the bug with the 0 Points is s#*! <.<. I cant up my Light armour. (and other perks) A bit s#*!, hope you can do that better then i use it again.
That's not a bug, that's how I tie the perk to the skills of that specialization. You have to use a Stealth perk to increase Light Armor. If you have Warrior and Stealth perks you'll have to spent the Warrior perks first to get the Stealth perks.
I know this is a bit off topic but I was hoping you would be able to help me!
I have seen you have looked through the classic level up mods source scripts and I have done the same in vain.
The mod simply will not work for me, even with just the bethesda esms active.
It all works, except it does not kick me out of the menu when it should, it just sits there and I can choose a perk.
Now, I have decompiled the script and attempted to recompile it which throws up 10 erros and fails the complete the compiling which is very odd.
I know this is not your mod and probably an inappropriate place to ask but you seem to have some knowledge of this mod and I was hoping you could shed some light on the issue!
(I am about to try this mod out now also, seems quite interesting)
You don't actually pick the stat boosts, they are automatically gained on lvl-up depending on which skills you used. Having the stat choice determine the type of perk is actually an interesting idea but I don't see how that would work because I basically need to set the skills before the menu is opened else the interface won't update until you move to a perk or re-open it. By the time you pick the stat everything's already loaded.
It would be possible to have a version that only assigns the perks without any of the stat gains but that seems a little half-arsed to me.
It's regen for all attributes. It seemed like the best fit to encompass the idea of Stamina, if you have a better idea I'm all ears. My goal was to make secondary effects that are useful to every type of character to some regard just like the attributes in previous TES games but I also just wanted them to be small, neat bonuses. It's just 0,5% per Stealth level that's really not that much, getting 10 Magicka is way better considering it also gives you regen because Magicka regen is percentage based. For reference Adept Robes give 100% Magicka regen the equivalent of 200 Stealth levels.
This makes health an even better choice now that you get carry weight while stamina gets nothing. Regeneration during combat is pitifully low so I doubt +.5% is going to make much difference.
I think increasing armor rating for stealth would be a more attractive bonus. If you are a stealthy character you should better at avoiding damage in battle so that also makes sense logically.
Pure mage most likely concentrating more on their 5 main schools.. it would be better for magic regen is hosted under mage skill.. its a waste anyway under stealth.
For illusionist thief, they will likely dabble in illusion thus still gain magic anyway.
As for ideas.. rather then flat +10 on a single attribute, consider splitting them instead.. so combat levelup gives like +4 health and +1 stamina.. with combat perk give +5 health upon investment on combat perk. stealth on the opposite +4 stamina and +1 health (+5 stam on stealth perk) .. magic gives +3 magicka (+1 to each hp and stam) and +5 magicka from magic perks.
Tie the +regen on base attribute, +cw on hp+stam
Also, how do u deal with mods that allow conversion from dragon souls to perks.
@Lotus97: The idea with health is that while carrying capacity is useful it's not a combat related stat whereas regen and magic resist are. Flat armor rating for Stealth is an option but I think regen is more interesting. Armor rating is such a flat, clear bonus while regen has more utility and uses.
@deane9850: I don't see the point of tying attributes to perks considering a combat perk can only be spent on combat skills unless its the first perk. My initial idea actually had it so that each level up gave all attributes but with different weighting like combat: a lot of Health, medium Stamina, low Magicka. However splitting it up like that I think muddies the whole system a bit and goes away from the way it worked in previous titles where you only got attribute bonuses when you also used a related skill. I like the idea that you would use a bit more combat skills if you needed more health.
Every perk that you do not gain through my mod on level-up will be treated like a vanilla perk (can be spent on anything).
@deane9850: Alchemy, speechcraft, sneak, and lockpicking are all stealth skills so there a lot of ways to get the regen bonus. Also, the author of this mod also has a perk overhaul mod that merges lockpicking and pickpocket and replaces the open tree with an unarmored tree. I'm assuming the unarmored tree is counted as a stealth skill so you will also level that up as a mage.
@niklass: Ok. Thanks for the response. I didn't understand fully how this mod worked. I initially thought it was exactly like vanilla where you chose which attribute you want to increase and (because of this mod) that choice gave you a small bonus, but restricted where you spend perks. So you're saying that if we increase a certain school we're automatically assigned the perk and attributes (with bonus)?
And what did you mean by the last sentence "Every perk that you do not gain through my mod on level-up will be treated like a vanilla perk (can be spent on anything)." In the description it said when you go to the level up screen "Note that the vanilla level-up menu will still pop up but it won't affect anything." Are you saying that we won't get attributes, but we'll still get the perk point for vanilla level up? If so, doesn't that mean we'll get a lot more perks per level?
I am having the issue of not being able to apply perks to anything except the combat trees, even though the only skills I have experience in are the magical tree skills, so i am leveling up with my magical spells but unable to progress anywhere in those trees because it forces my skill level to 0.
You must have used some combat skills and gotten a combat perk somehow. You need to spend the combat perk first to get to the other perks. The priority for the perks is Combat-> Stealth -> Magic. Also keep in mind that the skills get their real value back as soon as you close the menu.
No, the amount of stats/perks you get is very close to vanilla. Xp is split per specialization so that Combat skill-ups only add toward the Combat xp pool and so on.
43 comments
would really like to use this mod tbh
* no heal on level-up
* level-up only after sleeping (first message tells you to sleep, second message when you wake up says to open your menu)
but I would certainly be content with just the first feature.
Do you have any advice for me on how to make my own mod to do so? If you're feeling like being completely awesome, is there any chance you'd make such a mod yourself?
vanilla:
select health = +10 health attribute
stamina = +10 Stamina and increases carrying capacity by five
magicka = +10 magicka
but your mod changes the level up from that to
Leveling Redesigned: where using skills in game under combat trees leads to auto combat, stealth trees leads to auto stealth ect.
auto Combat:: 10 Health, 5 Carrying Capacity, 1 Combat Perk
Stealth:: 10 Stamina, 0,5% Health, Stamina and Magicka regeneration, 1 Stealth Perk.
Magic:: 10 Magicka, 0,5% magic resist, 1 Magic Perk.
I think that this system you set up for your mod, if the right balance is found, can definitely enhance immersion in a more skillful way than other mods that tried similar systems. However I like others, believe it needs a bit more balancing. I would suggest something more akin to but not exactly like...
combat:: + ___ health, + ___ stamina, configurable bonus to carry capacity, 1 combat perk
stealth:: + ___health regen, + ___stamina regen, +___magicka regen, 1 stealth perk
magic:: + ___ magicka, + ___ health, 1 magic perk, and either less movement penalties (running doesn't lower stamina, increased backward movement speed or ect. requiring a certain number of level ups of magicka to take effect so as to not get OP) or small health resistance
A pure combat player who doesn't want to level very much sneak or magic will need health, and stamina but not magicka. Especially important on the stamina do to the number of popular combat mods on the nexus that make stamina more important (deadly combat, duel combat realism, ultimate combat). Even with the vanilla game more stamina is used for combat related shield bash. I would make the bonus to carry capacity configurable if possible do to those hardcore players who like the mods which reduce each races carry capacity for realism and make them use backpacks and pouches to carry extra weight. A pure combat player will need health, and stamina but not magicka.
A pure magic user should need health and magicka and not stamina in the same way as combat tree users but could benefit from movement perks. Or instead you could give a small bonus to magic resistance but I would suggest a low or configurable bonus. In vanilla skyrim magic resistance can become way to OP and a pure mage can level a lot in magic.
A pure stealth player will also use some of the combat tree for their kills so I made stealth have health and stamina regen. Stealth players can still get combat carry weight bonuses if they go that route. Alternatively if a stealth user installs a mod that allows them to use magic more stealthily then they can be a stealth mage and benefit from the magic level up bonuses. The way I built my suggestions I gave each auto stat 4 bonuses. You should also be able to be well rounded using some combat, stealth and magic in theory.
Again compared to other similar mods I've seen that have tried to implement similar systems yours is most promising. Others required script dragon and had less compatibility, or did not cover perk selection or suit my tastes. I'll be watching development. much appreciated
With your suggested bonuses Stealth seems kinda pointless while Combat seems like the best. Movement bonuses are very iffy and can easily get out of hand and make combat trivial. Magic resistance is calculated multiplicatively by the game and it's just 0,5% per level. Running already doesn't cost Stamina in the vanilla game or are you referring to sprinting? I also don't think getting speed bonuses by casting makes sense.
I've used my bonuses for several characters now and I think they work very well. I've never had a character that was just screwed up due to his attributes. But I also like that which skills you use matters and you should have think about how you want to play your character to get a decent combination. That's how you had to play in the previous games and it's still a lot less restrictive than that but I like that it's something to consider. I also have a system which makes a specialization level faster if you hadn't increased it for a while. I don't think the balance concerns hold up once you've played with it.
I think we could very well take old d&d progression as example, we can divide a class basically into those catagoeries: Hit points, Combat ability (wepons and armor use), Magic power (spells), Resistence (saving throws).
Hit points Combat Magic Resistence
Fighter 5 51 3
Mage1 15 2
Thief2 21 3
Cleric3 33 4
What I mean here, is nobody got 0 on anything. Even mage got a small hit points bonus every level up. Fighter magic can be considered magical item use (there was some only fighters could use).
Maybe you could balance like this:
Health Magicka Stamina
Combat 613
Magic 262
Stealth226
Some calculation would be needed to know how many levels you get from leveling all skills from a branch.
Edit: Probably we want to have aways 10 points per level to keep vanilla attribute progression.
For shits and giggles here's the code (math powered by uesp):
Game.GetExperienceForLevel(Math.Floor(-2.5 + Math.Sqrt(8 * (Game.GetPlayerExperience() + 12.5 * CurrentLVL * CurrentLVL + 62.5 * CurrentLVL - 75) + 1225) / 10)I cant up my Light armour. (and other perks)
A bit s#*!, hope you can do that better then i use it again.
I know this is a bit off topic but I was hoping you would be able to help me!
I have seen you have looked through the classic level up mods source scripts and I have done the same in vain.
The mod simply will not work for me, even with just the bethesda esms active.
It all works, except it does not kick me out of the menu when it should, it just sits there and I can choose a perk.
Now, I have decompiled the script and attempted to recompile it which throws up 10 erros and fails the complete the compiling which is very odd.
I know this is not your mod and probably an inappropriate place to ask but you seem to have some knowledge of this mod and I was hoping you could shed some light on the issue!
(I am about to try this mod out now also, seems quite interesting)
Any help is very much appreciated
function ForceCloseMenu()
while utility.IsInMenuMode()
if !ui.IsMenuOpen("Tutorial Menu")
input.TapKey(input.GetMappedKey("Tween Menu", 255))
endIf
endWhile
endFunction
Does not work with a 360 controller. Tween menu is mapped to B so it should work but unfortunately does not.
I also cannot recompile the script even without edits, very strange.
On topic, is your mod compatible with Requiem by any chance? I know in the decsription it states it isn't but I would love to use this.
I am mainly interested in the setting that allows you to only pick a perk from a tree you have chosen the skill boost for.
Any chance that this one feature can be standalone or is it all hard wired into the mod? I hope not!
You don't actually pick the stat boosts, they are automatically gained on lvl-up depending on which skills you used. Having the stat choice determine the type of perk is actually an interesting idea but I don't see how that would work because I basically need to set the skills before the menu is opened else the interface won't update until you move to a perk or re-open it. By the time you pick the stat everything's already loaded.
It would be possible to have a version that only assigns the perks without any of the stat gains but that seems a little half-arsed to me.
I think increasing armor rating for stealth would be a more attractive bonus. If you are a stealthy character you should better at avoiding damage in battle so that also makes sense logically.
For illusionist thief, they will likely dabble in illusion thus still gain magic anyway.
As for ideas.. rather then flat +10 on a single attribute, consider splitting them instead.. so combat levelup gives like +4 health and +1 stamina.. with combat perk give +5 health upon investment on combat perk. stealth on the opposite +4 stamina and +1 health (+5 stam on stealth perk) .. magic gives +3 magicka (+1 to each hp and stam) and +5 magicka from magic perks.
Tie the +regen on base attribute, +cw on hp+stam
Also, how do u deal with mods that allow conversion from dragon souls to perks.
@deane9850: I don't see the point of tying attributes to perks considering a combat perk can only be spent on combat skills unless its the first perk. My initial idea actually had it so that each level up gave all attributes but with different weighting like combat: a lot of Health, medium Stamina, low Magicka. However splitting it up like that I think muddies the whole system a bit and goes away from the way it worked in previous titles where you only got attribute bonuses when you also used a related skill. I like the idea that you would use a bit more combat skills if you needed more health.
Every perk that you do not gain through my mod on level-up will be treated like a vanilla perk (can be spent on anything).
@niklass: Ok. Thanks for the response. I didn't understand fully how this mod worked. I initially thought it was exactly like vanilla where you chose which attribute you want to increase and (because of this mod) that choice gave you a small bonus, but restricted where you spend perks. So you're saying that if we increase a certain school we're automatically assigned the perk and attributes (with bonus)?
And what did you mean by the last sentence "Every perk that you do not gain through my mod on level-up will be treated like a vanilla perk (can be spent on anything)." In the description it said when you go to the level up screen "Note that the vanilla level-up menu will still pop up but it won't affect anything." Are you saying that we won't get attributes, but we'll still get the perk point for vanilla level up? If so, doesn't that mean we'll get a lot more perks per level?
No, I was referring to perks gained through mods such as converting dragon souls to perks or perks gained before installing my mod.