I like most of the changes, but blitz was fun to just teleport around slaughtering stuff, and ninja made sense if you get behind someone unnoticed with a melee weapon it's game over, I'm love it if you could make a version without the perk changes.
I'm mostly done modding the game, so not likely to add new versions. Blitz was fun, but removed any challenge from the game. Ninja still works, it's just less effective with a sledgehammer. If you have any experience with fo4edit they are easy changes to remove however.
As a guy loves melee combat in F4, I find this mod absolutely fascinating.
I too agree that there needs to be a balance between blitz/vats/ninja being too easy, and running up and punching a death claw too hard.
I see you are still active on the nexus (your lunar mod looks intriguing, but is a bit more than I am interested in right now - still cool, just not for me).
Do you have any plans in working on this mod more, or having some discussion?
Fixing Blitz / Ninja; I think the fixing of ninja is essential (maybe lowering the level requirement a bit) and perhaps just toning down the max blitz damage. instead by making the blitz avoid damage, is fascinating.
I agree with a lot of the weapon changes - will be following this mod closely.
Yeah, I should probably add an optional file here that includes perk changes to blitz and ninja, as they are essential to balancing melee. Project Valkyrie has got me interested in playing FO4 again, which means I'll be back at modding more again, so possible :)
Your suggestions aren't bad. I'll take a look at the perks again and see what I can do. edit: haha, I hadn't touched this in so long I forgot I added the perk changes already. I think I see what you are talking about.
I think one of the challenges with Blitz - is that melee without vats, is just plain hard in the game. (or at least it is for me).
Let me expand on that. I am really trying to see if I can do melee without vats - basically, getting into range, and swinging at them. I find that this is very difficult; * enemies seem to always strike faster * power attacks don't seem to trigger quick enough.
Now, lets just say some of this could be user error (me). I am used to skyrim, where it feels like I can do a lot more in terms of moving and attacks actually going off.
Because this is difficult, I find vats (and blitz) a lot easier to use. But honestly, it is just plain fun to melee without it (fun as in watching the combat, not necessarily the results....).
I do agree that vats (I suspect ninja is more the issue, as you point out in your adjustments) and blitz can be OP, but in a conversation with a buddy of mine who also plays F4 he gave me an interesting counter point - once you get other preks going, one shot-ing a death claw is possible with many builds (in other words, the problem may not just be melee + blitz).
I took a look and the perk requirements for melee perks were set to be balanced against my Lunar Fallout changes, so I reverted them to vanilla level requirements. Thanks for pointing that out.
As for Blitz, and other elements, I'm going to leave them as is for now. I feel like non VATS melee should remain more difficult than ranged combat.
Thanks for the response.Your result may indeed be the best solution for blitz outside of vats.
I tried making the vats perk increase your speed dramatically in combat (to kind of simulate the idea) and it ended up just being a bit....weird in game play. (I combined detecting when melee weapons were armed with the condition of 1+ badguys around, to do a speedmult modify - it worked, but did not give the desired result in game play. - it was more ...jumpy...than just making if feel better.).
I really wish it was possible to speed up the weapon animations, as honestly that is one of the big challenges with slower weapons. I find it almost impossible to use power attacks in combat with anything other than a dagger. Again, could just be user error here....
Again, thanks for all your hard work, and taking the time to have a dialogue about melee and blitz.
Yeah, I could never get the feel for "slow" melee weapons like baseball bats and sledge hammers either. I usually go with swords for action and knives for stealth kills. Another note, I generally use jet as an alternative to VATS. It offers a good slow motion mechanic that lets me get in close but requires some strategy and timing.
Excellent point; My melee build does rely on jet - as a way to not rely on vats as much. :)
While my speed up did not work out, your comment on jet inspires me to try something else.
I went ahead and changed it so blitz adds a slow time effect when you sprint, and enemies were near.
Some findings; * With only a 25% or 30% (jet is like 70%) slow effect, melee with slower weapons is still pretty rough. Might just need practice. * The sprinting is a decent balance, as a lot of things can knock you out of it, and it drains ap ok. * I was using the get group target count function - and it was a bit inconsistent - I might try isincombat.This removes the ability to use it as an first attack, but then again, not sure if you need it when not already in combat.
Oh, if my endless ramblings about blitz/melee are not useful, I can move the conversation elsewhere - I just respect the amount of thought you had already put into this topic.
What's the new change in v1.4? I can't find it... Also is there any chance to make a compatibility patch for this mod: Weapon Mod Fixes by frogs345, http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/11130/? I use both your mods and RGBO, and RGBO has recently updated a patch for that mod. Thanks.
1.4 was real minor (I posted a change log). Two perk changes. I hadn't seen Weapon mod fixes before (looks good! ). I'll take a look at it later to see if there are any conflicts that need fixing. I only touch a hand full of weapon mods so there shouldn't be much that would need changing. Thanks for the feedback.
The new perks in 1.2 are fully functional but I am very open to critiques and suggestions here. I'm thinking of adding an additional sneak attack bonus to the switchblade, combat knife and disciples blade to bring them a little closer to vanilla stats in Ninja.
Blitz has only been play tested enough to make sure it works. If the damage reduction is too high or low let me know. Or if there is an other effect that would work well here.
You did. Melee is already the most OP thing in this game by miles. On higher level I 1-hit kill -anything- from range. I 1-hit a whole army of legendary ancient behemoths. The problem with melee is that it's super boring, because you can only make it viable in VATS. If there was a mod that made melee play and feel like in Skyrim, that'd be cool, so it'd be fun to play outside of VATS.
Yeah, I'm aware of this, as I stated in the description. Fully balancing the melee system requires altering the perks and/or player self control. Vats breaks a lot of combat mechanics but melee especially (especially combined with ninja and blitz). There are perk tree overhauls which do a decent job of limiting those exploits (I prefer PIP-BOI).
So what I need is input on how well balanced the melee weapons are among each other and if the damage is high enough to make combat viable outside of stealth and without insane vats teleportation. I'm actually thinking of making a version that further buffs damage to equal weapons added from popular mods.
So,.. I'm getting rather ambitious with my modding and have started tackling perks. I've got a few ideas to improve the melee prks but it might take a while to get them working right. If you are interested, it might be worth tracking this mod.
I haven't changed that legendary mod effect, so only the stats from the disciples blade itself. I probably won't touch, unique weapons beyond the items they are based on. I will make adjustments to craft-able item mods if I see an argument against them.
19 comments
I too agree that there needs to be a balance between blitz/vats/ninja being too easy, and running up and punching a death claw too hard.
I see you are still active on the nexus (your lunar mod looks intriguing, but is a bit more than I am interested in right now - still cool, just not for me).
Do you have any plans in working on this mod more, or having some discussion?
Fixing Blitz / Ninja;
I think the fixing of ninja is essential (maybe lowering the level requirement a bit) and perhaps just toning down the max blitz damage.
instead by making the blitz avoid damage, is fascinating.
I agree with a lot of the weapon changes - will be following this mod closely.
thank you for sharing.
Your suggestions aren't bad. I'll take a look at the perks again and see what I can do. edit: haha, I hadn't touched this in so long I forgot I added the perk changes already. I think I see what you are talking about.
I think one of the challenges with Blitz - is that melee without vats, is just plain hard in the game.
(or at least it is for me).
Let me expand on that. I am really trying to see if I can do melee without vats - basically, getting into range, and swinging at them.
I find that this is very difficult;
* enemies seem to always strike faster
* power attacks don't seem to trigger quick enough.
Now, lets just say some of this could be user error (me). I am used to skyrim, where it feels like I can do a lot more in terms of moving and attacks actually going off.
Because this is difficult, I find vats (and blitz) a lot easier to use. But honestly, it is just plain fun to melee without it (fun as in watching the combat, not necessarily the results....).
I do agree that vats (I suspect ninja is more the issue, as you point out in your adjustments) and blitz can be OP, but in a conversation with a buddy of mine who also plays F4 he gave me an interesting counter point - once you get other preks going, one shot-ing a death claw is possible with many builds (in other words, the problem may not just be melee + blitz).
Have to think about that.
thanks for your work.
As for Blitz, and other elements, I'm going to leave them as is for now. I feel like non VATS melee should remain more difficult than ranged combat.
I tried making the vats perk increase your speed dramatically in combat (to kind of simulate the idea) and it ended up just being a bit....weird in game play.
(I combined detecting when melee weapons were armed with the condition of 1+ badguys around, to do a speedmult modify - it worked, but did not give the desired result in game play. - it was more ...jumpy...than just making if feel better.).
I really wish it was possible to speed up the weapon animations, as honestly that is one of the big challenges with slower weapons.
I find it almost impossible to use power attacks in combat with anything other than a dagger. Again, could just be user error here....
Again, thanks for all your hard work, and taking the time to have a dialogue about melee and blitz.
Another note, I generally use jet as an alternative to VATS. It offers a good slow motion mechanic that lets me get in close but requires some strategy and timing.
While my speed up did not work out, your comment on jet inspires me to try something else.
I went ahead and changed it so blitz adds a slow time effect when you sprint, and enemies were near.
Some findings;
* With only a 25% or 30% (jet is like 70%) slow effect, melee with slower weapons is still pretty rough. Might just need practice.
* The sprinting is a decent balance, as a lot of things can knock you out of it, and it drains ap ok.
* I was using the get group target count function - and it was a bit inconsistent - I might try isincombat.This removes the ability to use it as an first attack, but then again, not sure if you need it when not already in combat.
Oh, if my endless ramblings about blitz/melee are not useful, I can move the conversation elsewhere - I just respect the amount of thought you had already put into this topic.
Thanks again for your insights and a great mod.
Also is there any chance to make a compatibility patch for this mod: Weapon Mod Fixes by frogs345, http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/11130/? I use both your mods and RGBO, and RGBO has recently updated a patch for that mod. Thanks.
Blitz has only been play tested enough to make sure it works. If the damage reduction is too high or low let me know. Or if there is an other effect that would work well here.
So what I need is input on how well balanced the melee weapons are among each other and if the damage is high enough to make combat viable outside of stealth and without insane vats teleportation. I'm actually thinking of making a version that further buffs damage to equal weapons added from popular mods.