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About this mod
Changes the rewards for training with trainers to provide skill XP instead of progressing in a single skill level, and adjusts cost based off trainer type
- Requirements
- Permissions and credits
- Changelogs
Background
Let's face it: training in Skyrim is kinda silly. I mean, getting beyond the arbitrary nature of breaking proficiency in a skill type into discrete numbers, you talk to a given person, toss them some money, and regardless of what you already know relative to them (up to a certain threshold, anyway), they get you to the next "level." And then there's nothing to be gained with training with those lower trainers when you're past them - practice as a concept doesn't exist, they might as well not exist once you've surpassed them. Training with a Novice trainer or a Master trainer will gain you the same amount of experience, and to a certain degree that makes other types of trainers....meaningless. There's all these people out there, and the all fulfill the same purpose with little to no variation.
This mod doesn't necessarily fix it. It does, however go a long way towards it.
The simple summary of what this does:
Effectively, this mod makes all trainers useful. The idea for this was planted close to three years ago, but I always lacked the ability - I couldn't seem to figure out how to hijack the training menu to allow this process to take place, which is why the simple but silly Git Gud - Trainers Have Standards was released (it makes trainers not bother with you at all until you hit a minimum skill level. It's also completely incompatible with this mod :V). However, last year, with the release of Zim's Trainer's Expansion, my issue of how to hook into the training script was solved....by bypassing it altogether. Zim remade the training process from the ground up, and provided a framework I could hook into (which he gave his blessing for me to do - this is a hard requirement, and it absolutely would not be possible without his mod).
Also, just as a side note, I originally wanted this to be based off delta from the actual trainer skill level instead of the 50/75/90, but....turns out that like....Master trainers have skill levels in the 30s. It makes no sense. But whatever. If anyone is really interested in that version, I could throw it together along with an "execute once" script that sets skill levels for those characters to appropriate things, maybe, if I feel like it.
Details for Mathochists
Most all the details provided here are courtesy of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages Wiki. Tossing in spoilers to prevent scrolling.
Installation
Use a mod manager/organizer to install, or drop the loose files into you Skyrim data folder.
Compatibility
• Incompatible with basically anything that touches training (which thankfully isn't that much).
• It should go without saying, but the Zim options related to levels are ignored if you have the Skill XP option checked. The discount and other cost modifiers should be included if you so desire.
• Any mods that add trainers will still be capped at their normal caps (50, 75, 90). These caps are usually handled by dialogue, and the dialogue check for training needs to be updated to look for the MCM option. If the added NPC ties into an existing dialogue, they'll be fine, but otherwise, it'd require a patch/you're SOL. However, since Zim is a hard requirement, all the potentially added NPCs from that are included.
Disclaimer
This mod has been "done" since last August - I was waiting on a Zim update that came. It was tested decently well back then, but I couldn't hit EVERY trainer, and attempting to set my player skill to a level via console commands to test specific levels just....it doesn't seem like the console command drops you at the START of the level. I did, however, find that the numbers were accurate starting from a new character and having my training advance from the beginning (basically advskill to a specific level, then train - I got the expected numbers).
THAT BEING SAID, it was tested on the previous version's of Zim's, and with this release to finally get it out in the wild, I updated the mod to match the new script format/options, and verified it seemed to work once, but didn't dig in any deeper than that. So I guess "buyer beware" with regards to that.
This is one of the last couple things I already had "done" which I wanted to release, but by and large I'm retired - I'll be supporting this, of course, but don't expect quick turnaround time in responses/debugs :)
Credits
Bethesda for Skyrim Special Edition and the Creation Kit
ElminsterAU for SSEEdit
Zim for Zim's Trainers Expansion without which this literally would not be possible
Dana for the convo spawning this idea
Let's face it: training in Skyrim is kinda silly. I mean, getting beyond the arbitrary nature of breaking proficiency in a skill type into discrete numbers, you talk to a given person, toss them some money, and regardless of what you already know relative to them (up to a certain threshold, anyway), they get you to the next "level." And then there's nothing to be gained with training with those lower trainers when you're past them - practice as a concept doesn't exist, they might as well not exist once you've surpassed them. Training with a Novice trainer or a Master trainer will gain you the same amount of experience, and to a certain degree that makes other types of trainers....meaningless. There's all these people out there, and the all fulfill the same purpose with little to no variation.
This mod doesn't necessarily fix it. It does, however go a long way towards it.
The simple summary of what this does:
- Trainers no longer train you to the next level, they give "Skill XP" instead. So you can progress on past the cap (no more "waste" if you train towards the end of a skill level) and you can actually get multiple levels within a single training session. On the flip side, as you reach the limit/surpass given trainers, you might need to train with someone multiple times to gain a skill level.
- Similarly, there is no longer a training cap, so you can train with trainers past the point where they should be useful (think of it as practicing with someone lower than you - you can skill hone your skills)
- Master Trainers will always give more XP than Expert Trainers will always give more XP than Common Trainers. However, cost scales based off the usefulness of the trainer, with some other factors.
- This has the end result of Common trainers being the "best" until skill level 55 (roughly), Expert until 78, and Master above that, in terms of "bang for your buck" - better trainers will (mostly) be more effective at training you, but they will be more expensive to where they don't want to bother with someone so novice - Master training is actually MORE expensive at skill level 10 than at skill level 20.
Effectively, this mod makes all trainers useful. The idea for this was planted close to three years ago, but I always lacked the ability - I couldn't seem to figure out how to hijack the training menu to allow this process to take place, which is why the simple but silly Git Gud - Trainers Have Standards was released (it makes trainers not bother with you at all until you hit a minimum skill level. It's also completely incompatible with this mod :V). However, last year, with the release of Zim's Trainer's Expansion, my issue of how to hook into the training script was solved....by bypassing it altogether. Zim remade the training process from the ground up, and provided a framework I could hook into (which he gave his blessing for me to do - this is a hard requirement, and it absolutely would not be possible without his mod).
Also, just as a side note, I originally wanted this to be based off delta from the actual trainer skill level instead of the 50/75/90, but....turns out that like....Master trainers have skill levels in the 30s. It makes no sense. But whatever. If anyone is really interested in that version, I could throw it together along with an "execute once" script that sets skill levels for those characters to appropriate things, maybe, if I feel like it.
Details for Mathochists
Most all the details provided here are courtesy of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages Wiki. Tossing in spoilers to prevent scrolling.
Spoiler:
Show
Skill XP be weird, yo. The amount of skill XP which is required to move from one level to the next is defined as follows:
Skill improve offset and skill improve mult vary by skill, forming effectively six different lines:
This is, in turn, further complicated because how you earn skill XP varies, and....we'll get to that in a sec. At any rate, much like the above, there's six primary curves: Enchanting, Smithing/Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak, Alchemy, and Standard. All the numbers from here on are going to be for Standard - there's slight variance to get the same general curve following for each, but there will be some slight variation.
For each one, the trainer is considered to be level 50 if they're common, 75 if expert, and 90 if master. The difference between the player's skill level and the trainer's is determined.
Thus, you can see that comparative skill gained drops off significantly once you're past the trainer.
Prices, in turn, are determined by:
Similarly, you can see the cost decreases as you get relatively closer to the trainer (modeling it being easier to "give pointers" to someone with a relatively similar skill set), then increase (because what trainer would want to get paid to be handled by someone better than them, seriously? :P )
This leads to the following relative "effectiveness" curve.
As noted, while specific numbers vary depending on the skill, the general curve should remain the same for everything. The long and short, as noted: Master will ALWAYS give you more than Expert, and Expert will ALWAYS give you more than Common, but the costs scale in such a way that, depending on where you're at, the Skill XP gained per septim should come out to the next trainer tier.
Additionally, the charts start at skill level 10 because unless you're doing something weird you shouldn't be below that, and the numbers at like...skill level 1 get WAAAAAAAY out of whack.
If you want specific numbers plugged in, I've uploaded an excel spreadsheet that should have all the numbers you desire in the optional files section.
Cost(level) = Skill Improve Mult * (level-1)1.95 + Skill Improve Offset, Cost(0) = 0
Skill improve offset and skill improve mult vary by skill, forming effectively six different lines:
This is, in turn, further complicated because how you earn skill XP varies, and....we'll get to that in a sec. At any rate, much like the above, there's six primary curves: Enchanting, Smithing/Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak, Alchemy, and Standard. All the numbers from here on are going to be for Standard - there's slight variance to get the same general curve following for each, but there will be some slight variation.
For each one, the trainer is considered to be level 50 if they're common, 75 if expert, and 90 if master. The difference between the player's skill level and the trainer's is determined.
For Common Trainers:
XP trained if player < trainer = 2*(player skill level)^1.94 + 500
XP trained if trainer < player = (XP cost to get from skill level 49 to 50)*1.1^(player skill level - trainer skill level)
For Expert Trainers
XP trained if player < trainer = 2*(player skill level)^1.97 + 1000
XP trained if trainer < player = (XP cost to get from skill level 74 to 75)*1.1^(player skill level - trainer skill level)
For Master Trainers
XP trained if player < trainer = 2*(player skill level)^1.99 + 2000
XP trained if trainer < player = (XP cost to get from skill level 89 to 90)*1.1^(player skill level - trainer skill level)
Thus, you can see that comparative skill gained drops off significantly once you're past the trainer.
Prices, in turn, are determined by:
For Common Trainers:
Cost if player < trainer = (10*skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
Cost if trainer < player = 1.2*(10* skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
For Expert Trainers:
Cost if player < trainer = (30*skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
Cost if trainer < player = 1.3*(30*skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
For Master Trainers:
Cost if player < trainer = (50*skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
Cost if trainer < player = 1.4*(50*skill levels gained + 50) - rounded to nearest septim
Similarly, you can see the cost decreases as you get relatively closer to the trainer (modeling it being easier to "give pointers" to someone with a relatively similar skill set), then increase (because what trainer would want to get paid to be handled by someone better than them, seriously? :P )
This leads to the following relative "effectiveness" curve.
As noted, while specific numbers vary depending on the skill, the general curve should remain the same for everything. The long and short, as noted: Master will ALWAYS give you more than Expert, and Expert will ALWAYS give you more than Common, but the costs scale in such a way that, depending on where you're at, the Skill XP gained per septim should come out to the next trainer tier.
Additionally, the charts start at skill level 10 because unless you're doing something weird you shouldn't be below that, and the numbers at like...skill level 1 get WAAAAAAAY out of whack.
If you want specific numbers plugged in, I've uploaded an excel spreadsheet that should have all the numbers you desire in the optional files section.
Installation
Use a mod manager/organizer to install, or drop the loose files into you Skyrim data folder.
Compatibility
• Incompatible with basically anything that touches training (which thankfully isn't that much).
• It should go without saying, but the Zim options related to levels are ignored if you have the Skill XP option checked. The discount and other cost modifiers should be included if you so desire.
• Any mods that add trainers will still be capped at their normal caps (50, 75, 90). These caps are usually handled by dialogue, and the dialogue check for training needs to be updated to look for the MCM option. If the added NPC ties into an existing dialogue, they'll be fine, but otherwise, it'd require a patch/you're SOL. However, since Zim is a hard requirement, all the potentially added NPCs from that are included.
Disclaimer
This mod has been "done" since last August - I was waiting on a Zim update that came. It was tested decently well back then, but I couldn't hit EVERY trainer, and attempting to set my player skill to a level via console commands to test specific levels just....it doesn't seem like the console command drops you at the START of the level. I did, however, find that the numbers were accurate starting from a new character and having my training advance from the beginning (basically advskill to a specific level, then train - I got the expected numbers).
THAT BEING SAID, it was tested on the previous version's of Zim's, and with this release to finally get it out in the wild, I updated the mod to match the new script format/options, and verified it seemed to work once, but didn't dig in any deeper than that. So I guess "buyer beware" with regards to that.
This is one of the last couple things I already had "done" which I wanted to release, but by and large I'm retired - I'll be supporting this, of course, but don't expect quick turnaround time in responses/debugs :)
Credits
Bethesda for Skyrim Special Edition and the Creation Kit
ElminsterAU for SSEEdit
Zim for Zim's Trainers Expansion without which this literally would not be possible
Dana for the convo spawning this idea