I've taken some suggestions, and added a few touches of my own, and made the following changes:
Spoiler:
Show
When you read a Spell Tome, things happen! You will first get a message, asking if you want to study. This prevents you from being forced to study when you first pick up the book. Then, the book will close, and an appropriate reading animation will trigger if you hit yes. The screen fades to black, and time passes. You then gain your study percentage as normal.
Added a book called 'The Art of Study' to the game. You can find it in various mage-related places around Skyrim. The court wizards are a good place to start. This book allows you to [immersively] change your settings: altering the base study percentage before modifiers (default 10), the time that passes when you study (default 15 minutes), or the time you must wait between study sessions (default 1 hour).
Added a modifier based on your race's natural magical talent. Redguards learn slower than, say, Wood Elves. Become a vampire to boost your natural magical talent further! You will now learn more if you study in an inn or a player home.
Reading whilst seated, or while Rested/Well Rested, will also yield a boost.
You now can no longer study whilst in combat, or while trespassing. This is to account for the new animation, and time passing.
Restored more descriptions to the Spell Tomes.
Brought forward changes from USSEP.
I'm not certain how well this plays with just straight updating the mod files. From personal experience, you simply need to remove all Spell Tomes from your inventory and add them back again. That said, I'm very concerned about the vendor issue we still have with installing the mod for the first time mid-game. Hopefully nobody experiences any... unpleasantries.
Anyhow, I'm signing off for Christmas, so I thought I'd just leave you all with this. Thanks for all your support and feedback, and I hope to return with compatibility patches and updates in the new year!
Yeah having different races learn at different rates, when one of those races is "The black guys," is racist.
At least with starting affinities you can say "Culturally, the following races emphasise certain topics over others," but when it comes to raw learning ability... that's veering into naked racism. Saying that the Dragonborn is going to learn spells more slowly because he or she is black is not cool.
Like, benefit of the doubt, scientic probably didn't intend this and just got a bit carried away with "Let's make the system reflect the in-game affinities," without thinking it through. But this element should really be dropped.
Respectfully if this bothers you then you probably shouldn't play Skyrim. It's full of racial themes including differences between the races. This feature is an attempt at immersion whether you agree it succeeds or not.
He did specify: "based on your race's natural magical talent" ... so ...
Short answer - you got a problem with the lore of the game? Take it up with Bethesda Simple solution: read up on the lore (as it applies to Redguards) ... and in general, for funsies =)
TBF whilst the phrasing in the description above could have been better (e.g. by saying "a Redguard's lower natural affinity to magic means that...") the in-game effect is the same ... i.e. it is simply a way (within the limitations of the game) to simulate different races natural abilities with magic.
(Very) Long answer discussion on considerations and the possible issues/results of implementing such features in a fair(ish) lore-friendly manner:
Spoiler:
Show
There are a couple of possibilities, depending on 'how' learning and using magic is considered within the game / lore / personal opinion:
1) Tomes are written in Tamrielic or 'common tongue' and therefore all characters capable of reading it could (baring issues of required magical comprehension) learn the spell in a similar amount of time. This would imply therefore that it simply takes longer for those with lower natural ability to perfect using the spell (and perhaps ultimately limit the height of skill they can achieve overall). -- Simulating this in-game would require a Failure/(partial)Success system which rewards practice ... where those more naturally gifted (or learned) in the magical arts may just "get it", others may have to study and practice a lot in order to achieve success.
2) Tomes are written in a magical manner (complex runes, mystic symbols...whatever flavor you fancy) which takes a degree of learning and knowledge to 'decipher'. The assumption then being that those with more natural magical abilities may simply have been schooled (more) in the arcane arts from an early age (perhaps due to its cultural relevance) ... i.e. Elven races value magic culturally and are historically proficient magic users, they also live longer which affords them a longer lifetime with which to learn and master the arcane arts. In contrast, the Redguard culture is martial by nature, schooling their people in the art of war and combat from a very young age. They also culturally dislike Wizards and spellcasters who they see as 'weak' or 'wicked', stealing souls and tampering with minds ... although they do like Destruction magic! -- I am paraphrasing here from the Fandom Wiki: Redguards page, an awesome resource! -- The considered result here would be that the less magically-inclined will simply not be able to understand a 'Spell Tome', at least not without dedicating a (potentially considerable) amount of time (relatively) to study it ...(assuming appropriate learning resources and/or help are available). The more learned/gifted however will likely already have the required knowledge to decipher the tome fairly easily, as well as the fundamental understanding (from experience) to wield that knowledge and the resulting spell. In game-play terms however it would mean that if a person chooses to roll a character that goes against their cultural traditions the going would be tough, at least to start with, but a suitable game-mechanic applied to Learning, Practicing & Improving would ultimately make it viable ... and to be fair this is pretty much what the vanilla systems are already trying to do in terms of skill progression: skills improve through use (sneaking, archery and magic etc.) the more you use a specific skill the better you get at it. So when a specific trait of a character/race acts to 'nerf' them (via a permanent debuff or whatever) it is simply a mechanic used to simulate them starting from a 'lower rung' on the learning ladder (in this case). Yes the vanilla system is a bit basic and has its flaws and a more involved/developed system would improve things a lot, and possibly offer more immersion too, validating the presence of practice targets/dummies etc. which (for the most-part) in vanilla TES games have effectively been 'set dressing'.
Analysis: In my mind the first option is akin to saying someone is naturally gifted in some skill or other so they will have a greater ability, learn 'quicker' (yes, but really we mean comprehension+application) and achieve a higher degree of proficiency than an 'average' person ... a prodigy you could say (whether it be Vanessa-Mae with a violin or David Beckham with a Football, depending on your views). Whilst this does seem to ring true to the real world to some degree I feel it is less ideal in game because everything is then effectively based on learning (which would require hugely complex and technical systems to implement). Since information is available to all it comes down to who can utilise that information best... which is highly subjective, somewhat contextual and ultimately self-enforcing ... e.g. two people read a book on new mathamatical principals, one of them is a mathematician the other is not, they both understand the language (words) used, so who is better able to utilise the information? The mathematician obviously because he has already learned about maths. The application of learning is largely based on learning (based on learning), i.e. Information + Comprehension + Experience = Application. -- How do you roll that up in to a quick and easy pre-game 'chargen' interface?
With the second option I feel like it is like taking an approach/view similar to "Oh you're Chinese, you must know Kung-Fu, right?" or "I hired a Japanese accountant because they're good at maths" ... which yes seems (or is in fact) racist, by any fair measure in our world anyway. In-game though it is more realistic due to the fantasy setting and the stricter adherence to specifics for Species, Races and Cultures as applied through Lore. Any in-game system aiming to allow a person to roll a character that deviates from these 'norms' would therefore likely take place at the character creation stage and apply appropriate traits and buffs/debuffs there, which may or may not then be altered during play-through dynamics such as dedicated learning and practicing within different skill groups ... Again, very similar to what the existing systems are trying to do, within the limited capabilities of what is possible, practical and pragmatic from a game design and playability point of view.
Basically, we live in an imperfect world ... and when we are in-game we're living in an imperfect world within an imperfect world (existential arguments aside).
To me, it seems like he was following the set-up that the vanilla game has where some of the races have more affinity with different knowledge &/or abilities. No one has said that Redguards learn more slowly than Elves, it's a matter of what group is more familiar with something, because each group has a special ability. If you look at different races of this game you can see that Redguards have 2 special abilities in magic. The groups: Altmer, Breton, Dunmer, & Imperials do have more than Redguard & Nords have none. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Skyrim)
(to no one in particular, just a general thought) If you think that someone is being racist when it is not his/her intent, then THAT is a racist thought... so... you are the racist.
Imagine being in a game where Elves want to genocide everything in sight and claiming themselves being the superior race and then complain about "Black People" being not good at magic (while they're the best warriors in Tamriel lmao).
When it's about "yellow" people killing everyone, no problem, we can spite of them and insult them huh? Racist, YOU'RE the racist Betters.
It's racist to say that all high elves are snotty and orcs are big and dumb you filthy human. Redguards are known for their beauty in battle and their sword singers, NOT their mages. It makes 100% sense that an Altemer or a Breton (with a culture surrounding magic) would learn faster than a Redguard or an Orc (with a culture surrounding armed combat). Get your wokeness out of my game.
I really don't think that anything else needs to be said. They already made themselves look stupid and made it clear that they are race-baiting. Notice how they immediately focused on the "color of their skin".
It is a shame though. People use video games and other entertainment materials as escapism from real-world conflicts. Yet two white knights decided to put on their armor and draw their swords over a misconception stemming from their own delusional view of reality. Just had to defend those fictional "black" people from lore "racism". Didn't even bother to research because Mer is going to be able to learn spells faster than Man naturally anyway because they are more magically attuned. I can pretty much guarantee that if the mod author would have replaced Redguards with Nords they wouldn't have commented.
There seriously are sick people out there... @Betters @jamesthornbury
If you are going to drop hate comments and spread hatred and resentment in a community that simply tries to share mods and moding advices amongst people from all around the world... You need to leave here. You are polluting the positive atmosphere, it is clear to see. You need to shut up once and for good, and to learn how to respect others. You are the problem. Spoiled my good mood...
still working on compatibility patches? would love one for Apocalypse 9.45.0 for Skyrim Special Edition - Glamoril - Magic Of Time and Space & Mysticism - A Magic Overhaul??? It would be amazing to use this instead of another mod. This one has the exact features I'm looking for but without those patches I'm kind of left instant learning the majority of spells ill be using. Thanks regardless! this is an excellent concept and implemented reasonably within the game
FFS. It's not a question of ability per se, just several thousand years of cultural habit:
According to Trayvond the Redguard, in Hammerfell, they "Don't much like spellcasters, because Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked."[15] They particularly hate Conjuration, relating it to Necromancy and Illusion because it tampers with the mind. However, he does mention that he and other Redguards are fond of Destructionspells which suits their culture well. They also believe that no true redguard will stoop down to magic.
Hey, I made something that you guys might enjoy trying with this. The main option available allow you to remove all of the spell tomes and scrolls from the world, and only the college of winterhold has them. You might have to do some work but let me know
can you dm it to me? also, i think you should post it anyway. the mod author isn't active anymore and it's their responsibility to look over their mod, if they don't even respond when you ask them about permission to make a port then they clearly don't care about what happens with the mod anyway.
there is absolutely no point in waiting until you get permission endlessly, just remove it if they actually care after the fact {even though they won't} :P, especially since they didn't say anything about ports so they propably don't give a flying f***
Unfortunately I cannot share it without the Author's permission (it falls under the: "Modification permission You must get permission from me before you are allowed to modify my files to improve it", on the main page)
Will have to wait for the author to give permission.
Why? If your patch works the same way as the author's patch for Apocalypse (overriding a bunch of BOOK records to add the Better Spell Learning script to each book), you haven't modified any files that are part of Better Spell Learning. You haven't even overridden any records that are part of Better Spell Learning.
Just make sure you credit him/her when you upload. It shouldn't be that big a deal especially if they never reply back. By the way could you also make a patch for his Triumvirate mod and upload it? Also would it be possible for it to be ported to xbox? The Bethesda post page for this is dead so I came here.
I noticed that the Apocalypse - Magic of Skyrim is listed as version 9.45.0 but the compatibility patch for this mod shows it is for version 9.20.0; will there be an updated version to this compatibility patch soon by any chances? (Sorry for any bad spelling, little one is asleep right where my arm and keyboard are lol.)
will there be a compatibility patch with Odin magic overhaul? i really like this mod though i can't install other magic mods now though cause they all break immersion when you insta-learn the spells https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/46000
That should be a matter of adding spell IDs to lists of items concerned by the script, in xEdit. The best way i can think of to create patches for others mods, is by looking how he did with "Apocalypse" and to apply the process to other mods.
First, you made a sticky for the whole raciest discussion? Really? Does the woke agenda have to infiltrate every thing? Even fantasy? Disappointing...
Second. I don't know what is interfering but my load order is completely breaking better spell learning. It just doesn't work. I checked for conflicts in SSEdit and didn't find anything. I am assuming it has something to do with College of Winterhold- Quest expansion or College Curriculum, even thought there are no conflicts...
294 comments
I've taken some suggestions, and added a few touches of my own, and made the following changes:
When you read a Spell Tome, things happen! You will first get a message, asking if you want to study. This prevents you from being forced to study when you first pick up the book. Then, the book will close, and an appropriate reading animation will trigger if you hit yes. The screen fades to black, and time passes. You then gain your study percentage as normal.
Added a book called 'The Art of Study' to the game. You can find it in various mage-related places around Skyrim. The court wizards are a good place to start. This book allows you to [immersively] change your settings: altering the base study percentage before modifiers (default 10), the time that passes when you study (default 15 minutes), or the time you must wait between study sessions (default 1 hour).
Added a modifier based on your race's natural magical talent. Redguards learn slower than, say, Wood Elves. Become a vampire to boost your natural magical talent further!
You will now learn more if you study in an inn or a player home.
Reading whilst seated, or while Rested/Well Rested, will also yield a boost.
You now can no longer study whilst in combat, or while trespassing. This is to account for the new animation, and time passing.
Restored more descriptions to the Spell Tomes.
Brought forward changes from USSEP.
I'm not certain how well this plays with just straight updating the mod files. From personal experience, you simply need to remove all Spell Tomes from your inventory and add them back again. That said, I'm very concerned about the vendor issue we still have with installing the mod for the first time mid-game. Hopefully nobody experiences any... unpleasantries.
Anyhow, I'm signing off for Christmas, so I thought I'd just leave you all with this. Thanks for all your support and feedback, and I hope to return with compatibility patches and updates in the new year!
Wishing you all a brilliant Christmas,
scientic
At least with starting affinities you can say "Culturally, the following races emphasise certain topics over others," but when it comes to raw learning ability... that's veering into naked racism. Saying that the Dragonborn is going to learn spells more slowly because he or she is black is not cool.
Short answer - you got a problem with the lore of the game? Take it up with Bethesda
Simple solution: read up on the lore (as it applies to Redguards) ... and in general, for funsies =)
TBF whilst the phrasing in the description above could have been better (e.g. by saying "a Redguard's lower natural affinity to magic means that...") the in-game effect is the same ... i.e. it is simply a way (within the limitations of the game) to simulate different races natural abilities with magic.
(Very) Long
answerdiscussion on considerations and the possible issues/results of implementing such features in a fair(ish) lore-friendly manner:There are a couple of possibilities, depending on 'how' learning and using magic is considered within the game / lore / personal opinion:
1) Tomes are written in Tamrielic or 'common tongue' and therefore all characters capable of reading it could (baring issues of required magical comprehension) learn the spell in a similar amount of time. This would imply therefore that it simply takes longer for those with lower natural ability to perfect using the spell (and perhaps ultimately limit the height of skill they can achieve overall).
-- Simulating this in-game would require a Failure/(partial)Success system which rewards practice ... where those more naturally gifted (or learned) in the magical arts may just "get it", others may have to study and practice a lot in order to achieve success.
2) Tomes are written in a magical manner (complex runes, mystic symbols...whatever flavor you fancy) which takes a degree of learning and knowledge to 'decipher'. The assumption then being that those with more natural magical abilities may simply have been schooled (more) in the arcane arts from an early age (perhaps due to its cultural relevance) ... i.e. Elven races value magic culturally and are historically proficient magic users, they also live longer which affords them a longer lifetime with which to learn and master the arcane arts. In contrast, the Redguard culture is martial by nature, schooling their people in the art of war and combat from a very young age. They also culturally dislike Wizards and spellcasters who they see as 'weak' or 'wicked', stealing souls and tampering with minds ... although they do like Destruction magic! -- I am paraphrasing here from the Fandom Wiki: Redguards page, an awesome resource!
-- The considered result here would be that the less magically-inclined will simply not be able to understand a 'Spell Tome', at least not without dedicating a (potentially considerable) amount of time (relatively) to study it ...(assuming appropriate learning resources and/or help are available). The more learned/gifted however will likely already have the required knowledge to decipher the tome fairly easily, as well as the fundamental understanding (from experience) to wield that knowledge and the resulting spell.
In game-play terms however it would mean that if a person chooses to roll a character that goes against their cultural traditions the going would be tough, at least to start with, but a suitable game-mechanic applied to Learning, Practicing & Improving would ultimately make it viable ... and to be fair this is pretty much what the vanilla systems are already trying to do in terms of skill progression: skills improve through use (sneaking, archery and magic etc.) the more you use a specific skill the better you get at it. So when a specific trait of a character/race acts to 'nerf' them (via a permanent debuff or whatever) it is simply a mechanic used to simulate them starting from a 'lower rung' on the learning ladder (in this case). Yes the vanilla system is a bit basic and has its flaws and a more involved/developed system would improve things a lot, and possibly offer more immersion too, validating the presence of practice targets/dummies etc. which (for the most-part) in vanilla TES games have effectively been 'set dressing'.
Analysis:
In my mind the first option is akin to saying someone is naturally gifted in some skill or other so they will have a greater ability, learn 'quicker' (yes, but really we mean comprehension+application) and achieve a higher degree of proficiency than an 'average' person ... a prodigy you could say (whether it be Vanessa-Mae with a violin or David Beckham with a Football, depending on your views). Whilst this does seem to ring true to the real world to some degree I feel it is less ideal in game because everything is then effectively based on learning (which would require hugely complex and technical systems to implement). Since information is available to all it comes down to who can utilise that information best... which is highly subjective, somewhat contextual and ultimately self-enforcing ... e.g. two people read a book on new mathamatical principals, one of them is a mathematician the other is not, they both understand the language (words) used, so who is better able to utilise the information? The mathematician obviously because he has already learned about maths. The application of learning is largely based on learning (based on learning), i.e. Information + Comprehension + Experience = Application.
-- How do you roll that up in to a quick and easy pre-game 'chargen' interface?
With the second option I feel like it is like taking an approach/view similar to "Oh you're Chinese, you must know Kung-Fu, right?" or "I hired a Japanese accountant because they're good at maths" ... which yes seems (or is in fact) racist, by any fair measure in our world anyway. In-game though it is more realistic due to the fantasy setting and the stricter adherence to specifics for Species, Races and Cultures as applied through Lore. Any in-game system aiming to allow a person to roll a character that deviates from these 'norms' would therefore likely take place at the character creation stage and apply appropriate traits and buffs/debuffs there, which may or may not then be altered during play-through dynamics such as dedicated learning and practicing within different skill groups ... Again, very similar to what the existing systems are trying to do, within the limited capabilities of what is possible, practical and pragmatic from a game design and playability point of view.
Basically, we live in an imperfect world ... and when we are in-game we're living in an imperfect world within an imperfect world (existential arguments aside).
four years after the mod has been abandoned anyway...
When it's about "yellow" people killing everyone, no problem, we can spite of them and insult them huh? Racist, YOU'RE the racist Betters.
You have learned 98% of this spell.
Soon...
It is a shame though. People use video games and other entertainment materials as escapism from real-world conflicts. Yet two white knights decided to put on their armor and draw their swords over a misconception stemming from their own delusional view of reality. Just had to defend those fictional "black" people from lore "racism". Didn't even bother to research because Mer is going to be able to learn spells faster than Man naturally anyway because they are more magically attuned. I can pretty much guarantee that if the mod author would have replaced Redguards with Nords they wouldn't have commented.
If you are going to drop hate comments and spread hatred and resentment in a community that simply tries to share mods and moding advices amongst people from all around the world... You need to leave here. You are polluting the positive atmosphere, it is clear to see. You need to shut up once and for good, and to learn how to respect others. You are the problem. Spoiled my good mood...
According to Trayvond the Redguard, in Hammerfell, they "Don't much like spellcasters, because Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked."[15] They particularly hate Conjuration, relating it to Necromancy and Illusion because it tampers with the mind. However, he does mention that he and other Redguards are fond of Destruction spells which suits their culture well. They also believe that no true redguard will stoop down to magic.
Remove All Scrolls (and)(or) Spell Tomes II
I made a personal compatibility patch for Odin - Better Spell learning.
Could I have permission to upload the files on the nexus?
And thanks for making this awesome mod!
also, i think you should post it anyway. the mod author isn't active anymore and it's their responsibility to look over their mod, if they don't even respond when you ask them about permission to make a port then they clearly don't care about what happens with the mod anyway.
there is absolutely no point in waiting until you get permission endlessly, just remove it if they actually care after the fact {even though they won't} :P, especially since they didn't say anything about ports so they propably don't give a flying f***
Will have to wait for the author to give permission.
I am using it and it works perfectly.
I noticed that the Apocalypse - Magic of Skyrim is listed as version 9.45.0 but the compatibility patch for this mod shows it is for version 9.20.0; will there be an updated version to this compatibility patch soon by any chances? (Sorry for any bad spelling, little one is asleep right where my arm and keyboard are lol.)
Second. I don't know what is interfering but my load order is completely breaking better spell learning. It just doesn't work. I checked for conflicts in SSEdit and didn't find anything. I am assuming it has something to do with College of Winterhold- Quest expansion or College Curriculum, even thought there are no conflicts...
It's pretty hilarious that you care so much about being anti-anti-racist that you comment on something completely unrelated to the reason you're here.
Lol. Woke agenda.
To be clear, the guy claiming racism was being ridiculous. But you somehow manage to be a bigger joker than him. Nice job.